Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!

[Pat]

Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.

It's not a vaccine, because it doesn't provide immunity. The hint is in the way people who've been jabbed get covid again and again.

Not even the measles vaccine provides complete immunity. That's not a defining characteristic of a vaccine. Though it's true that the covid vaccines seem to be considerably less effective than the initial claims, and their effectiveness seem to decay faster than francium.

[Kiero]

Not even the measles vaccine provides complete immunity. That's not a defining characteristic of a vaccine. Though it's true that the covid vaccines seem to be considerably less effective than the initial claims, and their effectiveness seem to decay faster than francium.

The fact that a tiny number of outliers have immune systems that the measles vaccine doesn't take, is a completely different situation to the covid jabs that don't stop anyone contracting the virus.

Supposedly "fully vacinated" people have had covid more than I have.

We could go on through lots of other infections where vaccination (or recovery) provide actual immunity. Take varicella, which in the US they unnecessarily vaccinate for. I had chicken pox when I was a child. I have never had it since, not even when each of my children got chicken pox in their turn (none of the older ones were reinfected when the younger ones had it, either).

[dkabq]

Do you not see Kiero's posts? I never said you'd hear it spoken, but the fool believes the vaccine causes Covid and he's quite vocal about.

It's not a vaccine, because it doesn't provide immunity. The hint is in the way people who've been jabbed get covid again and again.

For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?

[Kiero]

For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?

No, because that isn't a vaccine either. There are two jabs that aren't vaccines: covid and flu.

Neither provides actual immunity, as in preventing you becoming infected. Instead they invented this bullshit notion of "reduces your symptoms", which isn't immunity and can't actually be measured.

That's a therapeutic treatment.

[Pat]

Not even the measles vaccine provides complete immunity. That's not a defining characteristic of a vaccine. Though it's true that the covid vaccines seem to be considerably less effective than the initial claims, and their effectiveness seem to decay faster than francium.

The fact that a tiny number of outliers have immune systems that the measles vaccine doesn't take, is a completely different situation to the covid jabs that don't stop anyone contracting the virus.

Supposedly "fully vacinated" people have had covid more than I have.

Flip a coin a million times. You'll get strings of 5 heads in a row. Roll a d6 a million times. You'll get strings of five 1s in a row.

Both results are expected. Similarly, it falls within normal expectations that there will be both vaccinated and unvaccinated people who catch the disease multiple times.

You're focusing on absolute states and individual cases, when this is a matter of statistics. There is evidence that the vaccines reduce the chance of hospitalization for severe symptoms, for instance. They're a lot less effective than initial reports, the effectiveness wanes like a Kryptonian under a red sun, there are real side effects that may outweight the benefits in low risk groups like pretty much everyone who doesn't have gray hair, and we don't know the long term consequences. But they are vaccines, and they do have some effect on the disease.

[Kiero]

Flip a coin a million times. You'll get strings of 5 heads in a row. Roll a d6 a million times. You'll get strings of five 1s in a row.

Both results are expected. Similarly, it falls within normal expectations that there will be both vaccinated and unvaccinated people who catch the disease multiple times.

You're focusing on absolute states and individual cases, when this is a matter of statistics. There is evidence that the vaccines reduce the chance of hospitalization for severe symptoms, for instance. They're a lot less effective than initial reports, the effectiveness wanes like a Kryptonian under a red sun, there are real side effects that may outweight the benefits in low risk groups like pretty much everyone who doesn't have gray hair, and we don't know the long term consequences. But they are vaccines, and they do have some effect on the disease.

No. If covid vaccines actually provided immunity, like the measles vaccine does, none of those people (or at least no more than a tiny minority) would be getting reinfected. Every few years we have a breakout of measles where the overall level of vaccination/recovery has dropped below herd immunity level, but it doesn't rip across the entire population. Because that vaccine provides immunity to infection.

The covid jabs do not stop people getting infected, ergo they are not a vaccine. That's why the infections carry on washing around the place and UK hospitals are full of "fully vaccinated" people being treated for and dying with covid. That's why Gibraltar, with 100% vaccination of it's adult population, is suffering another outbreak.

All the jabs have succeeded in doing is keeping the level of infection up right through the summer, which was traditionally a time it waned. Great job.

[dkabq]

I respectfully disagree.

My understanding is that while a vaccine may not be 100% effective, when it is effective, it prevents infection. For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20392713/
"...that the vaccine is highly effective in preventing infection (VE(S) = 0.997, 95% credible interval: 0.993-0.999)"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33805681/
"The prevalence of individuals with vaccine-induced measles immunity in the target measles vaccination population was 88.1%"

If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).

[HappyDaze]

For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?

No, because that isn't a vaccine either. There are two jabs that aren't vaccines: covid and flu.

Neither provides actual immunity, as in preventing you becoming infected. Instead they invented this bullshit notion of "reduces your symptoms", which isn't immunity and can't actually be measured.

That's a therapeutic treatment.

With your bullshit criteria, the list of exceptions will just keep growing. What about the tetanus vaccine? It consists of multiple shots and boosters (typically at least every 10 years)? Meningococcal vaccine is typically repeated every 5 years.

[dkabq]

For those in whom it is effective, does the flu vaccine provide immunity?

No, because that isn't a vaccine either. There are two jabs that aren't vaccines: covid and flu.

Neither provides actual immunity, as in preventing you becoming infected. Instead they invented this bullshit notion of "reduces your symptoms", which isn't immunity and can't actually be measured.

That's a therapeutic treatment.

With your bullshit criteria, the list of exceptions will just keep growing. What about the tetanus vaccine? It consists of multiple shots and boosters (typically at least every 10 years)? Meningococcal vaccine is typically repeated every 5 years.

Valid point. Not all vaccines are one-shot and done. However, there is a significant difference between getting a booster every 5 years vs every 6 months.

I learned something new today. Vaccine efficacy and vaccine effectiveness are not synonymous (except in the case where anyone exposed contracts the virus).
https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection

I accept the published (initial) efficacy rates for the covid vaccines. But given that we are also being told that fully-vaccinated people can spread the virus such that we have to wear masks, it appears that the efficacy reduces rapidly -- much more so than for any vaccine other than the flu (please provide examples to the contrary if you know of them).

[Kiero]

With your bullshit criteria, the list of exceptions will just keep growing. What about the tetanus vaccine? It consists of multiple shots and boosters (typically at least every 10 years)? Meningococcal vaccine is typically repeated every 5 years.

No, you fucking moron, it's the same as I've said all along. The covid jab isn't a vaccine and it uses the same bullshit made-up notion of "immunity" as the flu jab before it did.

It's got nothing to do with repetition, tetanus actually makes you immune to infection. The meningitis vaccine similarly makes you immune to infection. Note the recurring theme?

[Kiero]

I respectfully disagree.

My understanding is that while a vaccine may not be 100% effective, when it is effective, it prevents infection. For example:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20392713/
"...that the vaccine is highly effective in preventing infection (VE(S) = 0.997, 95% credible interval: 0.993-0.999)"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33805681/
"The prevalence of individuals with vaccine-induced measles immunity in the target measles vaccination population was 88.1%"

Sorry, no, those "effectiveness" figures are bullshit relative risk reduction numbers. The actual risk reduction figures, in the manufacturers own data, is around 1%. They do not stop people contracting coronavirus, and therefore have fuck all impact on transmission.

If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).

There's no "if" about it, covid jabs categorically do not prevent infection. They even admit it in public.

Here's my own Prime Minster saying so: https://dailysceptic.org/2021/10/24/boris-admits-the-vaccine-doesnt-protect-you-against-catching-the-disease-and-it-doesnt-protect-you-against-passing-it-on/

Herd immunity can be achieved through infection and recovery providing natural immunity. Same as we always have for coronaviruses and flu. Which was indeed happening, until someone decided to roll out a leaky therapeutic treatment that destroys people's immune systems and primes them to ignore an old strain.

[Pat]

If the covid vaccines are not preventing infection, then I have to agree that they are not vaccines, but are therapeutics. Moreover, it also begs the question of whether, between a waning efficacy and it not preventing infection, can herd immunity ever be achieved (one of the reasons given for forcing people to get vaccinated).

They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

[Kiero]

The "Botswana" scariant might ignore your jabs, says Pfizer (as though the Delta/Indian doesn't already do that):



Not to worry, within 100 days they'll have a new round of "boosters" for you!

[Mistwell]

Oh dear.

https://www.wsmv.com/news/health/vanderbilt-researchers-study-ivermectin-as-possible-covid-19-treatment/article_9a2e5bea-4d79-11ec-b4be-a3da0ade9ff3.html

Horse dewormer, huh?

That "horse dewormer" claim was always infuriating. Motherfuckers, that is a nobel prize winning HUMAN medication which the entire medical community has praised for many years. If some idiots took an animal version, that isn't an indictment of the human version which most people were taking.

The horse dewormer bit is just exaggeration of the dumbest possible way to bend the news, which is not all different from what the antivaxxers do.

You mean like calling people antivaxxers?

What do you call the idiots that believe that the vaccines causes Covid?

That's not how anyone uses the term antiva... oh, that's yet another dumbest possible exaggeration isn't it! You're good at this!

Pat, I truly don't know how you can willfully ignore the things Kiero is saying in this thread. He's referring specifically to completely not exaggerated things Kiero said right here. And when we call him an idiot for it you defend him. You reap what you sow mate. If you are going to continue to defend those kinds of comments from the dumbest poster here, you don't get to call other people out as dumb for "exaggerating" something they're almost directly quoting.

[Kiero]

They're vaccines, just not extraordinarily effective ones.

And we've already reached herd immunity. This is what it looks like. There will never be a miraculous point at which the disease suddenly dies off. The latest coronavirus has become endemic, part of the background of seasonal diseases we catch and develop resistance to in waves, then outbreaks flare again each new season as resistance wanes over time.

They're not vaccines, because they don't provide immunity from infection. This is a very simple definitional point.

We had reached herd immunity, until people started getting jabbed. Did you not notice the way the virus failed to recede in summer 2021 to the same degree that it did in summer 2020? That's new, and it's exactly the sort of thing virologists were warning about in trying to vaccinate your way out of an outbreak.