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Author Topic: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!  (Read 199079 times)

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #705 on: October 07, 2021, 10:15:35 PM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Do you support jailing people for speaking up against the draft? It's a simple yes or no question.

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #706 on: October 07, 2021, 10:19:38 PM »
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.
You're 100% right, the Spanish flu pandemic has killed twice as many people each since 1918. In 1918, it killed 50 million. In 1919, it killed 100. And in 2020 it killed 253,530,120,045,646,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people.

Oops wait that didn't happen.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #707 on: October 08, 2021, 01:21:15 AM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Do you support jailing people for speaking up against the draft? It's a simple yes or no question.

No I do not. Now, do you think it would be OK to falsely yell fire in a crowded theater knowing it would cause an actual panic?

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #708 on: October 08, 2021, 01:24:34 AM »
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.
You're 100% right, the Spanish flu pandemic has killed twice as many people each since 1918. In 1918, it killed 50 million. In 1919, it killed 100. And in 2020 it killed 253,530,120,045,646,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people.

Oops wait that didn't happen.

It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #709 on: October 08, 2021, 05:01:17 AM »
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.

Wrong, it's because the "vaccines" cause the variants and are responsible for the higher levels of infection and death.

Were it not for the jabs and lockdowns, it would have completely burned itself out by last summer.
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Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #710 on: October 08, 2021, 06:33:26 AM »
Making a shitty Facebook post: Jail-worthy. Free Speech be Damned.

How does this meaningfully differ from falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater to you? The jury found his posts were "knowingly designed to spread fear and panic" and that it was intended as a direct threat to people's safety. I mean, you guys not believing in the threat of Covid is meaningless - he knew his audience did believe in that threat. It's like if you thought a gun was unloaded and didn't fear that gun being pointed at you but other people reasonably thought the gun was loaded and would fear it being pointed at them. It wasn't some prank or a joke - he really did intend to cause a panic over this. That's what the jury found.
Yelling fire in a crowded theater is a paraphrase of Oliver Wendell Holmes. Specifically, he used it in support of the conviction of a man for peacefully speaking out against the draft. It's a notorious violation of civil rights. And not only was the phrase just a rhetorical flourish and never a legally binding standard of any kind, but key elements of the decision were overturned in 1969, so the case isn't even a precedent.

So you're attempting to defend repression with a past example of repression that holds no legal force and is widely considered to be one of the dark moments of American history.

Pat it's a legit example of what would be real criminal speech. It was used in law school by professors as a clear easy example of a line you can draw with speech. But you as usual instinctively gadfly it while continuing to not even talk about the issue inherent in the topic.

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Do you support jailing people for speaking up against the draft? It's a simple yes or no question.

No I do not. Now, do you think it would be OK to falsely yell fire in a crowded theater knowing it would cause an actual panic?
It's a garbage question because answering it requires being able to predict the future, "OK" is a meaningless standard, and on top of that the only reason you asked it was making it a garbage question, not to mention that the only reason you brought it up was to distract attention away from your support of totalitarian repression.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #711 on: October 08, 2021, 06:36:59 AM »
It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.

No one knows what people killed by the Spanish flu actually died of. They weren't monitoring the cause of death particularly closely. Thus theories about things like accidental overdoses of aspirin.
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Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #712 on: October 08, 2021, 06:41:07 AM »
Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.
You're 100% right, the Spanish flu pandemic has killed twice as many people each since 1918. In 1918, it killed 50 million. In 1919, it killed 100. And in 2020 it killed 253,530,120,045,646,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people.

Oops wait that didn't happen.

It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.
No, you're the one acting like a moron, because you keep on missing the points I've been making. "Things always get worse before they get better" is a completely meaningless statement. In any situation at all where something gets bad and it doesn't happen instantaneously, there is a point where it's getting worse. That's how graphs and simple logic works. But pretending that has predictive force in general is idiotic, because as long as the condition isn't infinitely exponential, there will also be a period when it's getting better. To show whether things are getting or better you have to show where on the curve we are. You can't just make a general statement about the nature of curves.

At least try to think about what you're saying.

And I've been fairly consistent about my beliefs, and upfront about where I've changed my mind, for instance on masks. Pretending otherwise just because you want to keep acting like a asshole doesn't make it so.

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #713 on: October 08, 2021, 06:45:52 AM »
It gets worse before it gets better. The Spanish Flu killed more people in the second year than it did in the first year. All pandemics eventually die down, but that doesn't mean they don't get worse over time in the first years.

But you knew this. You've gone into full retard mode lately in replies to me. I could say you shouldn't get the vaccine and you'd probably start advocating for the vaccine on instinct at this point.

No one knows what people killed by the Spanish flu actually died of. They weren't monitoring the cause of death particularly closely. Thus theories about things like accidental overdoses of aspirin.
If they were killed by the Spanish flu, then by definition we know what they died from.

But ignoring the misstatement, the number of people who die from a pandemic is always going to be an estimate not a hard figure, since we don't do serology tests on everyone and thus have to rely on clinical judgments. Though while there's always room to debate the numbers, aspirin ODing sounds kind of ridiculous.

Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #714 on: October 08, 2021, 06:52:03 AM »
Wrong, it's because the "vaccines" cause the variants and are responsible for the higher levels of infection and death.

Were it not for the jabs and lockdowns, it would have completely burned itself out by last summer.
Once we saw widespread community transmission, covid-19 was always going to become endemic. Like all the other background diseases, there will be periodic or seasonal flareups, as immunity wanes and conditions allow it to spread more widely again. And we had plenty of variants and mutations before the vaccines arrived.

https://www.cbrc.kaust.edu.sa/covmt/

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #715 on: October 08, 2021, 06:58:22 AM »
Once we saw widespread community transmission, covid-19 was always going to become endemic. Like all the other background diseases, there will be periodic or seasonal flareups, as immunity wanes and conditions allow it to spread more widely again. And we had plenty of variants and mutations before the vaccines arrived.

https://www.cbrc.kaust.edu.sa/covmt/

Coronaviruses are already endemic, which is why many people already had prior immunity that offered some protection even from last year's strain.

I'd have to go and find the chart showing the mutations, which have proliferated at a much faster than usual rate since the jabbing programmes began.
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Pat
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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #716 on: October 08, 2021, 07:27:48 AM »
Once we saw widespread community transmission, covid-19 was always going to become endemic. Like all the other background diseases, there will be periodic or seasonal flareups, as immunity wanes and conditions allow it to spread more widely again. And we had plenty of variants and mutations before the vaccines arrived.

https://www.cbrc.kaust.edu.sa/covmt/

Coronaviruses are already endemic, which is why many people already had prior immunity that offered some protection even from last year's strain.

I'd have to go and find the chart showing the mutations, which have proliferated at a much faster than usual rate since the jabbing programmes began.
Coronaviruses are a whole family of viruses. That's like saying tigers aren't dangerous because housecats are everywhere. And cross-immunity to the new coronavirus is based on specific similar diseases like SARS1, not coronaviruses in general.

And why don't you find that chart? It could be interesting.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #717 on: October 08, 2021, 09:18:02 AM »
Coronaviruses are a whole family of viruses. That's like saying tigers aren't dangerous because housecats are everywhere. And cross-immunity to the new coronavirus is based on specific similar diseases like SARS1, not coronaviruses in general.

And why don't you find that chart? It could be interesting.

It's more like saying feral cats aren't dangerous because housecats are everywhere, but the point still stands that cross-immunity exists.

It came from Nextstrain:

Thus

Also discussed at 02:11:00 here. As I keep saying, vaccines cause the variants through selective evolutionary pressure. It isn't the unjabbed who need to worry, it's the jabbed who've been primed for a selective kind of "immunity".
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 09:24:44 AM by Kiero »
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DocJones

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #718 on: October 08, 2021, 10:09:46 AM »
DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO FALSELY YELL FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER KNOWING IT WOULD CAUSE AN ACTUAL PANIC? It's a simply yes or know question which has fuck all to do with anything you just said.
Today that question isn't so simple.  It's an equity calculation based on the races, sexes and sexual orientations of the participants.
For example: If the yeller is a BIPOC and the crowd is made up of hetero white male oppressors (aka notsees) then no charges will even be brought.
/sarc
 

Zelen

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #719 on: October 08, 2021, 10:31:08 AM »
Interesting new study.
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
Also how do you square the notion that we had ~375K deaths in all of 2020 before vaccinations were available but have ~325K so far in 2021 after the vaccinations were available.

Because Delta variant is far more infectious, and it spread faster. Because that's how pandemics happen - they get worse over time. I really don't know how people don't get that it would have been much worse but-for the vaccine.

When we are presented with evidence ("More people are getting sick and dying this year than last year") we cannot immediately jump to the conclusion ("We just need to do the stuff we tried that didn't work, but more!"). That is irrational. And to be fair, I do think injections are generally a good idea for at-risk populations, but I don't think they are an one-size-fits-all approach.

A policy of honesty and openness, in which we given the option alongside early treatments such as HCQ & Ivermectin, would almost certainly have saved more lives and developed robust herd immunity as we have seen in Sweden, India, etc.

Instead we have a policy of deceit and blame, stoking divisions and creating distrust. We have closed off discussion about early treatment topics known to be extremely effective, and are now punishing people who object, and creating huge negative externalities of suicide, depression, cancer risk, and more. All of which is driven by gullible people who have been deceived into playing evangelist for corrupt profit-seeking corporations.