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Author Topic: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!  (Read 22043 times)

Zelen

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #540 on: August 25, 2021, 05:41:11 PM »
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

You can say, "Just get a different job" now, but it's easily foreseeable that it soon won't be optional for employers. In countries like Australia you aren't even permitted to leave the country if you disagree with their insane and murderous lockdown policy.

While this is couched in the language of medical necessity, the consistent refusals to acknowledge natural immunity or acknowledge that injected persons carry and spread the virus reveals it's simply about power & compliance to arbitrary demands.

Shasarak

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #541 on: August 25, 2021, 05:47:36 PM »
Stage 3, 4, 5 will make no difference.

I guess, if you are against science.
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dkabq

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #542 on: August 25, 2021, 05:49:31 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
How many hairs are you going to split this time to 'prove' it's not being forced? Do you need help moving those goalposts around?

It is not being forced. No goalpost moved. You're pretending pressure is force. It's bullshit. You know it's bullshit. Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine no matter how many times you claim that's happening because of "pressure" to get it. Any more than the "pressure" to not get an abortion is "forcing" people to not get an abortion, or pressure to "eat healthy" is forcing you to eat healthy. You know full well what "forced" means, like seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws, and this isn't "forced."

But keep whining bitching moaning and complaining like a fucking snowflake SJW that "societal pressure to conform" is the same as "forced" to do something, you pussy. It's amusing to see you flip like this to behaving like those you've condemned for years once it's an issue which triggers you. Wahhh I am being "forced" to remove my nose ring to work at an upscale retail store. Wahhh I'm being "forced" to get a vaccine to work at a retail store which deals with the public on a constant basis. Wahh wahh wahh, I'm triggered! My rights!

By that logic, someone telling me that if I don't give them $xxxx/month they will burn my house down, isn't "forcing" me to give them money, they are "pressuring" me.

Logic is not your specialty I see.

That might be the stupidest "by that logic" comparison I've seen in a decade.

Nobody is threatening to do anything to you which is on the level of "burning my house down". There are hundreds of thousands of jobs right now for the taking which don't require the vaccine. Many likely pay more than the places which do require the vaccine. You're not entitled to work anywhere. If you don't like the jobs which require a vaccine, go get one of the ones which do not require it. In this economy, it's really not hard to do and certainly not anything close to the equivalent of burning your house down. In fact it remains far easier to get one of those jobs for you than it would for someone with pink hair and a lip ring - who also routinely get denied jobs because of their personal preferences. Somehow I doubt you'd equate that with burning their houses down, right?

Look man if you don't like your job, get a different one. If you don't like your employer or their policies, get a different employer. This is your freedom. This is what at-will employment is about. but shut the F up with this whiney entitlement to the job you want with the employer you want and the employment policies you want. If you want to run the show, start your own business which does not have those policies. Don't try and force employers to adapt to your preferences though.

You know the other thing you could do if you don't like the working conditions at your job? Form a union. A union can override employer policies regarding vaccines, provided it's a private employer. Why don't you do that? I'd love to see all you guys who claim to be triggered by socialism start promoting unionization for collective action to force a change in an employment working condition!

We will have to agree to disagree on the stupidity of the "by that logic comparison". 

Actually, losing my job would most likely cause me to have to give my house to the bank. So while it's not an equal outcome (burned-down vs. bank owned), both result in me losing my house.

That said, I do agree with you regarding not being entitled to a job. In fact, a previous president of the company I work for flatly told a questioner at an all-hands meeting, "You don't have to work here", in response to a complaint about the latest round of benefits reduction. That's why I always tell my younger colleagues to keep their options open so that they can bail to a better compensated job.

As for me, what I do can literally only be done where I currently work. And as I am in the twilight of my career, there are scant options for jumping to a new career at the level of compensation necessary to keep my house. So I play small and avoid the turbo lasers. Doesn't mean that I have to like it. But in the end it is better than many other alternatives.

And FWIW, I cannot gainsay how you handled the vax situation with your employees.

Regards.



Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #543 on: August 25, 2021, 06:09:46 PM »
I think you might be the dumbest fucker on this entire message board.

The vaccines wear off after time, which is why sickness and death increase the further you get from your last dose. Which you knew. But even with that, infections and sickness and death are all much lower if you are vaccinated vs unvaccinated. And the claim the vaccines make people even more ill is in fact a sign you're brain damaged.

The "vaccines" are fucking useless, they can only provoke a temporary antibody response. Meanwhile natural immunity is lifelong. Through the magic of t-cells, an appropriate immune response is remembered from one infection to another, which is why people who had SARS in 2003 are immune to covid-19.

The vaccines most definitely make people more ill, through antibody dependent enhancement (and that's overlooking all the vascular damage the spike proteins do). Which might be why deaths are spiking in "fully vaccinated" Israel, alongside infections.

But being a stupid fucker, you didn't know that.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 06:12:26 PM by Kiero »
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Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #544 on: August 25, 2021, 06:32:22 PM »
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

Persuade yes. I think we can debate if it's "coercion" but it's surely not "forced" and that's the allegation being made. And the "coercion" accusation is that it's the equivalent of literally burning someone's home down if they don't do it, which is complete nonsense. So if you're looking to call people on being "dishonest and pretending" then hold the people in this thread accountable for those false allegations. Otherwise, you're not really sorry at all.

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You can say, "Just get a different job" now, but it's easily foreseeable that it soon won't be optional for employers. In countries like Australia you aren't even permitted to leave the country if you disagree with their insane and murderous lockdown policy.

Look, when dire snowball effect prediction comes true, then you discuss that. But right now, that's not the world we live in. Much like Australia has gun confiscation laws we don't have here either. Just get a different job is something conservatives have told people for my entire life when those people don't like working conditions. You can't suddenly flip the script now that it's you not liking the working conditions, particularly when it's nothing close to the majority of job conditions out there and we have a surplus of job openings.

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While this is couched in the language of medical necessity, the consistent refusals to acknowledge natural immunity or acknowledge that injected persons carry and spread the virus reveals it's simply about power & compliance to arbitrary demands.

I have not seen people deny that infected persons can carry and spread the virus. I have seen that people accurately state the quantity of virus is reduced for those with the vaccine and the quantity spread reduced as well, but that's not the same as denying they can spread it. That is in fact why people who are vaccinated are being asked to mask when indoors with people outside their household.

Pat

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #545 on: August 25, 2021, 06:37:02 PM »
Oh for fuck's sake not only is the right to privacy not contained in any natural laws written about by any philosopher prior to the founding of the nation, but the US Supreme Court MANUFACTURED THAT RIGHT FROM WHOLE CLOTH when they wrote the Roe vs. Wade decision. That's why they had to come up with that bullshit "Penumbra of the amendments" spin to try and create a right which they knew damn well never previously existed. We all grew up in an era when our home addresses and phone numbers were listed in a big free book everyone got! Privacy was not and was never one of the "natural rights" behind our nation. It's a "new" right created for a "living Constitution" and even with that "flexible interpretation" it never extended to private businesses asking employees for vaccine records. In fact, businesses which send their employees to foreign nations ROUTINELY have always asked for vaccine records for that job BECAUSE IT'S A REQUIREMENT TO TRAVEL. Nobody before claimed this was some privacy right.

Doctors notes provide defense from BEING FIRED for being absent. Not for being paid. You can get a few paid sick days a year by law, but not that many. Beyond that, it's just a reason used to not fire your ass.

As for "beating their workers" hey guess what, there are boxers and wrestlers hired just for that! Nobody is forced to accept a job as a boxer, but if they do accept a job as a boxer they're going to get hit, often, and by the businesses boxing sparing partner. It depends on the job. Nobody has to take that job.

Businesses can freely ask for vaccination records to work there. You are free to not work there. Take your petty little business regulations and shove them. You sound like a Union thug.
I didn't say a damn thing about getting paid for a day off. That's your fabrication.

Again, you're using legal arguments to argue against natural rights. That's invalid, even in concept. Natural rights exist beyond any legal framework. Read the work of Aristotle and Aquinas.

People have the right to be secure in their persons and effects, and to not have to divulge every personal detail at the whim of a third party.

And if you can't distinguish a boss taking a baseball bat and beating the hell out of their workers, and a sport, no wonder you have no grasp of the concept of natural rights.

And you still haven't addressed the clear, unambiguous, governmental coercion.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #546 on: August 25, 2021, 06:38:01 PM »
Actually, losing my job would most likely cause me to have to give my house to the bank. So while it's not an equal outcome (burned-down vs. bank owned), both result in me losing my house.

Bull-fucking-shit.

Right now if you go unemployed you not only get normal unemployment but they still have super-unemployment in place. In addition they have mortgage deferment in place for the unemployed. We also have a record number of job openings right now and inflation in wages happening. So I'd love to know what your skills are which are so poor you couldn't find an equivalent paying job but so good that it's not a low paying job you're in, in the first place. Naw, this is a heaping mound of bullshit. You wouldn't let some SJW get away with that kind of claim if they made it about being fired for having pink hair. Why did you think you'd get away with it for yourself?

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That said, I do agree with you regarding not being entitled to a job. In fact, a previous president of the company I work for flatly told a questioner at an all-hands meeting, "You don't have to work here", in response to a complaint about the latest round of benefits reduction. That's why I always tell my younger colleagues to keep their options open so that they can bail to a better compensated job.

As for me, what I do can literally only be done where I currently work. And as I am in the twilight of my career, there are scant options for jumping to a new career at the level of compensation necessary to keep my house. So I play small and avoid the turbo lasers. Doesn't mean that I have to like it. But in the end it is better than many other alternatives.

You are almost certainly selling yourself short. Sure, your specific current job duties are tailored to your current job. But there are sooooooo many good job openings right now for responsible people with a good track record of not leaving their prior jobs after a year that you almost certainly could not only find other work, but other work which pays better than your current job. You should take your own advice - look around.

Pat

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #547 on: August 25, 2021, 06:40:27 PM »
Like I said before:

So much for 'my body, my choice'.

Nobody is forcing you to make that choice.
Let's say someone works for you. You threaten to fire them, if they don't have sex with you.

They cry, and hate themselves, but have sex with you because they can't afford to lose their job.

You're arguing that's 100% consensual. It's an appalling stance, as I hope this example illustrates.

Mistwell

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #548 on: August 25, 2021, 06:42:31 PM »
I think you might be the dumbest fucker on this entire message board.

The vaccines wear off after time, which is why sickness and death increase the further you get from your last dose. Which you knew. But even with that, infections and sickness and death are all much lower if you are vaccinated vs unvaccinated. And the claim the vaccines make people even more ill is in fact a sign you're brain damaged.

The "vaccines" are fucking useless, they can only provoke a temporary antibody response. Meanwhile natural immunity is lifelong.

Wow. More completely bullshit. Natural immunity is lasting a SHORTER AMOUNT OF TIME THAN THE TWO MAIN VACCINES. I don't know where you heard different, but antibody count declines in those with natural immunity faster than with the second dose of the two main vaccines. People can and are getting covid a second time without the vaccine at fairly high rates right now. Natural immunity appears to last 6 months or less.

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Through the magic of t-cells, an appropriate immune response is remembered from one infection to another, which is why people who had SARS in 2003 are immune to covid-19.

That was the theory many months ago. Turned out to not be true. T-Cell response is not holding up with natural immunity.

Is this why you've been so insane on this issue? You didn't ever catch up on the topic and you're working off old information?

Quote
The vaccines most definitely make people more ill, through antibody dependent enhancement (and that's overlooking all the vascular damage the spike proteins do). Which might be why deaths are spiking in "fully vaccinated" Israel, alongside infections.

Jesus that is some extreme pseudo-science nonsense. You're not actually given a spike protein you moron. Deaths are not "spiking" in the fully vaccinated in Israel. They're up from "zero" to "close to zero" but most deaths in Israel remain in the unvaccinated including in those who are getting a second case of Covid.

[quote[But being a stupid fucker, you didn't know that.
[/quote]

Didn't know the completely fabricated nonsense you read on some new age website?

Pat

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #549 on: August 25, 2021, 06:47:42 PM »
Yeah, rules and laws that prohibit me from putting other people in potential danger (like smoking in bars) infringe on my rights.

Why didn't we protest those laws again?
They do infringe your rights. And I argued against them, even though I hate hate hate hate hate hate smoke filled bars, and the end result was immeasurably better from my perspective. But wrong is still wrong.

moonsweeper

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #550 on: August 25, 2021, 06:50:34 PM »
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

1.  Because the approval administrative procedures were circumvented the FDA approval is questionable, at best...

2.  None of the available jabs are actually approved, the Pfizer shot that was 'approved' does not actually exist yet... (notice how the EUA for the Pfizer shot wasn't actually pulled when the approval came through)

3.  Technically they are still an experimental medical treatment because they have not completed the required trials yet...  (FDA approval and 'experimental' are not necessarily mutually exclusive)

4.  Since you run a small business, have you mandated a shot yet...or are you just CYA right now because people have only blathered about HIPPA/privacy and nobody has brought up the ADA yet so you haven't actually had to deal with it?

1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.

2. The approved shot IS the existing shot. No change.

3. They did complete the required trials. Again, I keep asking for a link to claims like this and...crickets.

4. I have not mandated the shot. ADA doesn't cover not getting the vaccine - it's not a disability. Now if someone comes with a doctors note about how they are immunocompromised and the vaccine would not be in order, that would be respected under the ADA (if I were requiring the shot - which I am not). 

All of my employees got vaccinated on their own. I did influence it, but not how you might expect. In fact I never even said they should get it. I only said if anyone wanted to get it I would help them get the vaccine. And I told them I had gotten it. But I also told them they were not required to get it to work here and I would keep it private if people got it or didn't get it.

All I did was obtain approval from the City of LA to treat my employees as "health care support manufacturing" because we were making masks (and also donating many to local hospitals). And because "health care support" was one of the earlier vaccine check-boxes at a time when not everyone could get the vaccine, I offered my employees a personalized letter in their name addressed to the vaccine administrators explaining their job included the manufacturing of face masks, some of which were donated to local hospitals, and if the administrator thought it appropriate to please render vaccine services for that employee.

Because this was "special" permission to get the vaccine before some others could get it, my employees jumped on the opportunity and got the vaccine. Never mind that literally the very next week it was opened up to a lot more people to get the shot. And also never mind that not one vaccine administrator even looked at the letter. The mere idea that they were getting some sort of "privilege" that others couldn't get was enticing for them to get the vaccine. And every single one of them did, without any mandate or pressure.

1.  Surely you can show me the data that shows they followed the administrative procedures to the letter...After all, if a company can show that much efficiency compared to the normal development time, that would be some truly revolutionary methods that can be used by others.

2.  So you are saying the currently available jab is legally the same as what the FDA issued an approval letter for...

3.  See my response to 1 above and please provide a link as to how the control group is doing...

4.  Lucky you, everyone took the jab voluntarily...I am assuming that you will require any new employees to be vaccinated in order to be hired, right.  It is approved and all, right...which means it is no longer 'experimental' and doesn't have an EUA...and you said businesses should be able to do that.  I mean it isn't a 'disability' so obviously the ADA wouldn't apply, because laws never cover things that don't relate to their title, do they...  ;)

Could somebody please provide me a link for how long the jab is definitely effective for...
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Pat

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #551 on: August 25, 2021, 06:52:15 PM »
1. The approval administrative procedure was not circumvented for this latest approval. I asked earlier for someone to provide a link supporting that claim and...crickets. Lots of people like to assert it, but nobody seems able to willing to actually back that claim up with anything other than their own personal guess.
Nonsense. You made an absurd argument, and basically asked for a link proving that water was wet.

You can't turn 10 years into 1 year. You can't. This doesn't require a formal citation, it's a basic law of the world.

Kiero

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #552 on: August 25, 2021, 06:55:16 PM »
Wow. More completely bullshit. Natural immunity is lasting a SHORTER AMOUNT OF TIME THAN THE TWO MAIN VACCINES. I don't know where you heard different, but antibody count declines in those with natural immunity faster than with the second dose of the two main vaccines. People can and are getting covid a second time without the vaccine at fairly high rates right now. Natural immunity appears to last 6 months or less.

That was the theory many months ago. Turned out to not be true. T-Cell response is not holding up with natural immunity.

Is this why you've been so insane on this issue? You didn't ever catch up on the topic and you're working off old information?

Complete and utter bollocks, there is no "new information", a century of immunological understanding didn't change in 2020. Antibodies are barely even half the story, which is why they're irrelevant.

There is nothing new or novel about covid-19, besides all the propaganda bullshit being continuously pumped out to try to justify carrying on this fake state of emergency.

And I'm not insane on this issue, I've had this nothing burger of an infection and shrugged it off in a week. Didn't even put me in bed, never mind hospital. But then I'm neither fat nor old.


Jesus that is some extreme pseudo-science nonsense. You're not actually given a spike protein you moron. Deaths are not "spiking" in the fully vaccinated in Israel. They're up from "zero" to "close to zero" but most deaths in Israel remain in the unvaccinated including in those who are getting a second case of Covid.

Didn't know the completely fabricated nonsense you read on some new age website?

All the "vaccines" are full of spike proteins, you dumb fuck. That's how they trick the immune system into ignoring that part of the virus.

As for Israel, for someone talking about being current, you clearly haven't look at any data since the end of July. Their 7 day average has been in double figures throughout August. And nope, just like in the UK, most deaths are in the vaccinated.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 06:59:49 PM by Kiero »
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Pat

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #553 on: August 25, 2021, 06:59:31 PM »
Sorry, but it's simply dishonest to pretend like the various different measures & strategies aren't intended to coerce people into taking injections against their own judgment. They absolutely are.

Persuade yes. I think we can debate if it's "coercion" but it's surely not "forced" and that's the allegation being made.
Coercion is force. It's the literal definition of the word.

And once it becomes a government mandate, force involves the threat of physical violence, because government mandates are enforced by people with guns. Try not paying taxes, then refusing to show up at all the proceedings, and then say no thank you when they come to pick you up, and see what happens. That it's buried behind bureaucracy and the expectation of submission doesn't change that it's compliance under the threat of deadly force.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Imprison anyone who refuses the vax!
« Reply #554 on: August 25, 2021, 08:30:14 PM »
  FDA approved.  I do love those official stamps.  Just like weapons of mass destruction, no troops on the ground, etc.  No thanks.

It's funny for a year people here screamed it wasn't even FDA approved and that was in some way meaningful, and now that it's FDA approved they dismiss that as not meaningful. Almost like they were arguing in bad faith for a year!

For a year, I have pointed out that the FDA approval was just one criteria for being vaccine hestiant. I also wanted that full FDA approval to be consistent with previous standards, for the DOL and OSHA to enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements (for worker reports of vaccine side effects) and that the government and the media have a year of misinformation and outright lies to make amends for before I even consider getting vaccinated. There are other considerations like the PREP act protections and whether FDA approval lifts those protections for the vaccinations.
And that does not preclude other issues that may have arisen from the way these vaccinations were developed and deployed that I may not be aware of. A part of my hesitancy is the unknowns.

People claiming that this FDA approval proves anything about the vaccine hesitant arguing in "bad faith" are a bunch of projecting assholes who are pissed off that their "silver bullet" argument is a pathetic straw man attack.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 08:57:57 PM by Ratman_tf »
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