If You Want the RPG Hobby to Be More LGBT-Inclusive...

[Gormenghast]

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing what seems like a pretty plausible view that Gary didn't give a fuck about being politically correct or incorrect on the matter at hand because he just wasn't thinking in those terms at all. He was just compiling stuff that seemed like fun (and often proved fun in actual play before publication).

Use it, lose it, riff on it, spliff on it, whatever: it's your game!

And it is after all JUST A GAME, not a deconstructionist essay in Social Text.

YAAAAAASSSSSSSSSS!

This.

[Lunamancer]

I don't see what the big deal is. It seems like people are trying to say that AD&D1 was fully politically correct by today's standards, and I don't think it is or that it should be expected to be.

We shouldn't expect that a work from 1979 is going to reflect today's views.

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing what seems like a pretty plausible view that Gary didn't give a fuck about being politically correct or incorrect on the matter at hand because he just wasn't thinking in those terms at all. He was just compiling stuff that seemed like fun (and often proved fun in actual play before publication).

Use it, lose it, riff on it, spliff on it, whatever: it's your game!

And it is after all JUST A GAME, not a deconstructionist essay in Social Text.

Yes. Emphasis on the part in bold.

An RPG provides a framework for players and GMs to bring to the game whatever they want. If you wanted to model the king after the President of the United States, it's not like you're forced to use Jimmy Carter just because the book was published in 1979.

Now if I did a little digging, I could cite Gary Gygax in writing trashing political correctness. The quote would be from the early to mid 90's. I was never 100% sure what inspired the rant. Perhaps the removal of devils and demons from D&D. But the view that the girdle of masculinity/femininity is offensive certainly vindicates Gary on that point. Political correctness is NOT something to be aspired to.

[Trond]

So we have transgender, transrace (just look at Michael Jackson) and now trans-speciesism thanks to some demented cat girl in, go figure, Sweden.

Fuck this planet. It just keeps getting weirder.

I think you're talking about the Norwegian "cat girl" Nano. And boy is she ridiculous.

I think I'll start to identify as a proboscidean. This way, I can always be the elephant in the room

[Warboss Squee]

I think you're talking about the Norwegian "cat girl" Nano. And boy is she ridiculous.

I think I'll start to identify as a proboscidean. This way, I can always be the elephant in the room

Ah, I have a difficult time telling the difference in the dialects.

Regardless, this sort of thing is totally bonkers.

[Catelf]

I think you're talking about the Norwegian "cat girl" Nano. And boy is she ridiculous.

I think I'll start to identify as a proboscidean. This way, I can always be the elephant in the room

After this, I had to doublecheck, and I have no idea if Squee referred to Nano, but it was the one I thought he was referring to, and I had somehow missed the fact that she's Norwegian.
I think there is a swedish catgirl as well, but it may be that my memory is wrong there as well.

[Bren]

I had somehow missed the fact that she's Norwegian.
I think there is a swedish catgirl as well, but it may be that my memory is wrong there as well.

Swedish? Norwegian? Pretty much the same thing, right?

[AsenRG]

I think you're talking about the Norwegian "cat girl" Nano. And boy is she ridiculous.

I think I'll start to identify as a proboscidean. This way, I can always be the elephant in the room

That's a good idea, I think I'm going to identify as Ursus Arctos from now on;)!

[Anon Adderlan]

You have to be inclusive of the right kind of people, not just any LGBT person or person of color that happens by. One LGBT friend remarked that it's all just like the gay bath house politics of yesteryear - all about who is 'gayer' then who, and thus has more status and prestige in that particular population. (I hesitate to use the word community, here, as the factionalism and feuding makes F/SF fandom look quite tame.)

EVERY culture is like this though, and the one who can best represent (or redefine) the values of the community gets the most authority and status. And my experience with minoroty groups has been they internally fight over exactly the same things in exactly the same proportion as compared to their external battles with everyone else.

I talked to the event organizers about this, and they (all 'G' people) were quite dumbfounded that I ( a 'straight' and a 'breeder') should bring this to their attention. They were very happy with their gay men's meet-up weekend, and were quite baffled as to why I thought that 'LBT' people should be included in their convention.

LGBT only exists as a group because they were under attack from the same sources who couldn't tell them apart. Beyond that they have surprisingly little in common.

The representative of the Foundation announced that it was the policy of the Foundation that, quote, "Only a bi-sexual person of color can properly interpret Tekumel", and that as the other side's LGBT person was not a person of color they were not able to properly interpret Phil's vision of his world. The concept was that any authors of any such Tekumel-based fiction had to fit that description in order for them to be allowed to contribute to the anthology.(2)

Me mouth just hung open. As far as I know, Phil was neither 'bi-' or a 'person of color'. You could ask Gronan, too.

This is what actual cultural appropriation looks like. Because not only are they representing, but they're actively preventing the people who originated it from representing.

There's a reason why I am so very glad not to be involved with the business side of the game hobby / industry, anymore. Conversations like this leave my head spinning.

It's all status and legitimacy with those folks.

This is the same guy who told me that (again, I quote) "Gygax and Arneson stole the idea for role-playing games from Professor Barker; the Daluhn manuscript is proof of that." When i pointed out that this was not likely to be the case, and that the actual historical data didn't support his theory, he told me that it was (and again, I quote; this guy is a gold mine for this kind of thing) "Your job, as our archivist, is to come up with the information to support me, if you were a loyal supporter of the Tekumel Foundation." Basically, he told me to forge something up to support his position. (I think it's in aid of the book he wants to publish about the early history of RPGs. He does not like Jon Peterson. At all.)

I wonder if archivist in Tékumel faced these kinds of problems

All female social groups strike me the exact same way as all male social groups and they tend to foster or reinforce the exact same unhealthy us vs. them mentality among the participants. Anecdotally, that opinion seems to be an extreme minority.

Xenophobia is not a product of Homogeneity, but since it can't exist without it it's often assumed to be. But to reframe the premise, how do you feel about all gamer gaming groups?

[Bren]

Xenophobia is not a product of Homogeneity, but since it can't exist without it it's often assumed to be.

Xenophobia cannot be a product solely of homogeneity. Obviously if everything is homogeneous there is nothing to be xenophobic about. But xenophobia thrives where people see the other or out group that they fear as different in some significant way from themselves or the in group. Single gender activities at best, do nothing to make seeing the other gender as OTHER less likely. Often they encourage seeing the other gender as unlike. As OTHER.

But to reframe the premise, how do you feel about all gamer gaming groups?

I don't know what you mean by all gamer gaming groups. If people are playing a game then they are gamers in the same sense that a person who trains for or runs a race is a runner. Even if they are a really, really slow runner. So all game groups consists of gamers.

If by gamer you mean people who devote significant amounts of time, energy, emotion, and even money towards gaming as their major or sole hobby, I can't say I've ever seen a group that consisted only of serious gamers. There are always some people who I would describe as casual players. People who don't buy the rules. People who don't read the rules. People who come to spend time with friends, spouses, or significant others. People who have other hobbies towards which they devote more of their time, energy, emotion, and money. Under this more restrictive definition of gamer...I don't know that I have a preference. Since I've never seen a homogeneous group of gamers I can't say if that would be better.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Swedish? Norwegian? Pretty much the same thing, right?

For your safety's sake, stay out of Minnesota!

[Bren]

For your safety's sake, stay out of Minnesota!

You betcha Swen.

Actually I've been there and lived. Survived running outdoors in a short sleeve shirt in the sub -100 degree F windchill and my car coming to a complete stop in a snow drift across the middle of I-35.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Hell, pink was a manly color until some ways into the 20th century.

In the mid 90s the "Yellow Power Tie" of the late 80s was supplanted by the "Pink Power Tie" for about five years.

Amusingly, a few years back at Brooks Brothers I saw that the "Yellow Power Tie" is back.  Identical.

[Bren]

In the mid 90s the "Yellow Power Tie" of the late 80s was supplanted by the "Pink Power Tie" for about five years.

Amusingly, a few years back at Brooks Brothers I saw that the "Yellow Power Tie" is back.  Identical.

I have a gold tie and a yellow tie from around 2003. The gold tie was very popular in East Asia.

[AsenRG]

This is what actual cultural appropriation looks like. Because not only are they representing, but they're actively preventing the people who originated it from representing.



It's all status and legitimacy with those folks.

Word.
Admittedly, recently persecuted minorities have all the reason to worry about status:).

I wonder if archivist in Tékumel faced these kinds of problems

And that's going to be the next Saturday Night Special that I'm going to introduce;)!