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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: oggsmash on October 20, 2022, 03:41:07 PM

Title: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 20, 2022, 03:41:07 PM
   ....seem stunned.  What the fuck?  I get they have now canceled all games against the team in the conference, but how retarded are the parents to let their daughters take the court against a teen boy in the first place?   I have a funny feeling there was A LOT of rumbling about this that never got reported on and now that a girl got KTFO'd in a game it is unavoidable. 

  https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 21, 2022, 02:24:20 AM
I get they have now canceled all games against the team in the conference, but how retarded are the parents to let their daughters take the court against a teen boy in the first place?   I have a funny feeling there was A LOT of rumbling about this that never got reported on and now that a girl got KTFO'd in a game it is unavoidable. 

  https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina

Sadly, brain injury happens a lot in kids sports - both among boys and girls. I don't see statistics for severe traumatic brain injury in high school girl's volleyball specifically. However, there was a study of concussion events in the smaller sample of NCAA sports. There, girl's volleyball is apparently second only to boy's football in concussion events:

Quote
Using medical records data from the 17-year period between 2003 and 2020, Dr. Debellis and colleagues defined the number of concussion events and time of participation missed due to concussion injury among the different sport teams
Quote
As expected, football was the sport with the greatest number of concussion events (220 events in 167 athletes). Women’s volleyball followed, with 60 events in 24 players.

Source: https://www.docwirenews.com/conference-coverage/aaos-2021/study-finds-that-football-and-womens-volleyball-players-have-highest-rates-of-concussion-injuries/

Estimates vary depending on what level of brain injury one considers, but by one estimate, sports are responsible for 21% of all brain injury cases in children overall. Girls have about a third to half the rate of traumatic brain injury as boys, but that's still high rates. Nationally, there are thousands of serious cases requiring hospitalization every year, and hundreds of deaths. This is overwhelmingly within same-gender teams among non-transgender students going back decades. Some general statistics:

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=sports-injuries-statistics-90-P01650

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/07/14/62-million-us-children-suffered-traumatic-brain-injuries-from-sports-equipment-from-2000-to-2019-with-a-higher-increase-among-girls-study-finds/

------

All of this is to say, that one case doesn't show that it is anything more than the same sort of accident that happens too often among all same-sex, non-transgender students. It happens regardless of transgender participation.

I'm not advocating any particular approach to transgender students in sports, just that focusing on this one case ignores the context of such injury.

As a side note, from reading the news around this, none of the people involved have even said that the student in question is transgender. I can't tell where that claim came from. Maybe they are transgender, but it isn't stated.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: rytrasmi on October 21, 2022, 12:53:34 PM
I'm not sure what the problem is with traditional open league and (natal) women's league. Some sports have moved back in this direction. Not every activity needs to be structured to be gender affirming for a very small segment of the population. When I play a sport, I'm not there to have my gender ego stroked. I'm there to play a fair game and have fun, emphasis on the word fair.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 21, 2022, 07:34:12 PM
I get they have now canceled all games against the team in the conference, but how retarded are the parents to let their daughters take the court against a teen boy in the first place?   I have a funny feeling there was A LOT of rumbling about this that never got reported on and now that a girl got KTFO'd in a game it is unavoidable. 

  https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina

Sadly, brain injury happens a lot in kids sports - both among boys and girls. I don't see statistics for severe traumatic brain injury in high school girl's volleyball specifically. However, there was a study of concussion events in the smaller sample of NCAA sports. There, girl's volleyball is apparently second only to boy's football in concussion events:

Quote
Using medical records data from the 17-year period between 2003 and 2020, Dr. Debellis and colleagues defined the number of concussion events and time of participation missed due to concussion injury among the different sport teams
Quote
As expected, football was the sport with the greatest number of concussion events (220 events in 167 athletes). Women’s volleyball followed, with 60 events in 24 players.

Source: https://www.docwirenews.com/conference-coverage/aaos-2021/study-finds-that-football-and-womens-volleyball-players-have-highest-rates-of-concussion-injuries/

Estimates vary depending on what level of brain injury one considers, but by one estimate, sports are responsible for 21% of all brain injury cases in children overall. Girls have about a third to half the rate of traumatic brain injury as boys, but that's still high rates. Nationally, there are thousands of serious cases requiring hospitalization every year, and hundreds of deaths. This is overwhelmingly within same-gender teams among non-transgender students going back decades. Some general statistics:

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=sports-injuries-statistics-90-P01650

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/07/14/62-million-us-children-suffered-traumatic-brain-injuries-from-sports-equipment-from-2000-to-2019-with-a-higher-increase-among-girls-study-finds/

------

All of this is to say, that one case doesn't show that it is anything more than the same sort of accident that happens too often among all same-sex, non-transgender students. It happens regardless of transgender participation.

I'm not advocating any particular approach to transgender students in sports, just that focusing on this one case ignores the context of such injury.

As a side note, from reading the news around this, none of the people involved have even said that the student in question is transgender. I can't tell where that claim came from. Maybe they are transgender, but it isn't stated.

  I am advocating for zero men competing against women in sports.  Period.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Zelen on October 22, 2022, 05:21:55 PM
We should just eliminate any kind of championship and make womens sports based on participation.

And then execute the monsters that promote and profit from this disease.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 22, 2022, 11:19:24 PM
I get they have now canceled all games against the team in the conference, but how retarded are the parents to let their daughters take the court against a teen boy in the first place?   I have a funny feeling there was A LOT of rumbling about this that never got reported on and now that a girl got KTFO'd in a game it is unavoidable. 

  https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina

Sadly, brain injury happens a lot in kids sports - both among boys and girls. I don't see statistics for severe traumatic brain injury in high school girl's volleyball specifically. However, there was a study of concussion events in the smaller sample of NCAA sports. There, girl's volleyball is apparently second only to boy's football in concussion events:

Quote
Using medical records data from the 17-year period between 2003 and 2020, Dr. Debellis and colleagues defined the number of concussion events and time of participation missed due to concussion injury among the different sport teams
Quote
As expected, football was the sport with the greatest number of concussion events (220 events in 167 athletes). Women’s volleyball followed, with 60 events in 24 players.

Source: https://www.docwirenews.com/conference-coverage/aaos-2021/study-finds-that-football-and-womens-volleyball-players-have-highest-rates-of-concussion-injuries/

Estimates vary depending on what level of brain injury one considers, but by one estimate, sports are responsible for 21% of all brain injury cases in children overall. Girls have about a third to half the rate of traumatic brain injury as boys, but that's still high rates. Nationally, there are thousands of serious cases requiring hospitalization every year, and hundreds of deaths. This is overwhelmingly within same-gender teams among non-transgender students going back decades. Some general statistics:

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=sports-injuries-statistics-90-P01650

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/07/14/62-million-us-children-suffered-traumatic-brain-injuries-from-sports-equipment-from-2000-to-2019-with-a-higher-increase-among-girls-study-finds/

------

All of this is to say, that one case doesn't show that it is anything more than the same sort of accident that happens too often among all same-sex, non-transgender students. It happens regardless of transgender participation.

I'm not advocating any particular approach to transgender students in sports, just that focusing on this one case ignores the context of such injury.

As a side note, from reading the news around this, none of the people involved have even said that the student in question is transgender. I can't tell where that claim came from. Maybe they are transgender, but it isn't stated.

In case anyone wasn't aware that jhkim was a disingenuous twat, please note that he just argued that, because car accidents are so frequent, we should not draw any conclusions about someone who has an accident while driving drunk...
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 23, 2022, 12:04:38 PM
In case anyone wasn't aware that jhkim was a disingenuous twat, please note that he just argued that, because car accidents are so frequent, we should not draw any conclusions about someone who has an accident while driving drunk...

I'm right here, Eirikrautha. It's weird talking about me in the third person.

My argument is that because car accidents are so frequent, a single car accident isn't proof of anything either way. For example, if someone wanted to argue that the current alcohol limits should be 4 times lower, and they point to a single accident with under current BAC limits, then that isn't significant evidence.

---

For kids' safety, I think evidence is vital. As a parent, I find there are a lot of things that other parents worry about that aren't statistically significant (like nuclear power accidents and serial killers), and a lot of things that parents often ignore that are quite dangerous. I myself was surprised to see that girls volleyball is second only to boys football in concussion events. I have long had misgivings about boys football given the brain damage rate. When I was teaching high school, I went to student football games because they invited me and I wanted to support them, but I did feel uneasy about it knowing the danger of not just obvious concussions, but also long-term damage.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 23, 2022, 12:15:13 PM
  Concussions boxing are not uncommon.  However, if you start having men box against women the concussion rate will go off the charts.  Same with most sports....people who have no concept of physical culture, understanding of the DRASTIC difference between men and women regarding strength and power production in the moment of performance or who just never lift weights or play sports do not understand this and maybe never will.  Maybe they just ignore reality period.  I do not know, I prefer to err on the side that people thinking there is no difference in chances of injuries when men play against women are just bookish nerds with zero experience with sports, full contact activities, or any real attempts at training their physical potential.  Because the only other way they would want to keep this bullshit going is they are just willing to accept the much higher risks (for others of course) and that is just flat out evil.  I am willing to try to imagine gross ignorance vs evil....for now.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 23, 2022, 12:17:33 PM
  But for those of you out there who never do jack shit physical and are couch bound for all your lives....sports and activities have risk attached to them.   Doing things that increase those risks by a thousand fold though is NOT the same thing as accepting activities have SOME risk (small) attached.   Pretending all risk is the same is disingenuous. 
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 23, 2022, 02:09:27 PM
I get they have now canceled all games against the team in the conference, but how retarded are the parents to let their daughters take the court against a teen boy in the first place?   I have a funny feeling there was A LOT of rumbling about this that never got reported on and now that a girl got KTFO'd in a game it is unavoidable. 

  https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina

Sadly, brain injury happens a lot in kids sports - both among boys and girls. I don't see statistics for severe traumatic brain injury in high school girl's volleyball specifically. However, there was a study of concussion events in the smaller sample of NCAA sports. There, girl's volleyball is apparently second only to boy's football in concussion events:

Quote
Using medical records data from the 17-year period between 2003 and 2020, Dr. Debellis and colleagues defined the number of concussion events and time of participation missed due to concussion injury among the different sport teams
Quote
As expected, football was the sport with the greatest number of concussion events (220 events in 167 athletes). Women’s volleyball followed, with 60 events in 24 players.

Source: https://www.docwirenews.com/conference-coverage/aaos-2021/study-finds-that-football-and-womens-volleyball-players-have-highest-rates-of-concussion-injuries/

Estimates vary depending on what level of brain injury one considers, but by one estimate, sports are responsible for 21% of all brain injury cases in children overall. Girls have about a third to half the rate of traumatic brain injury as boys, but that's still high rates. Nationally, there are thousands of serious cases requiring hospitalization every year, and hundreds of deaths. This is overwhelmingly within same-gender teams among non-transgender students going back decades. Some general statistics:

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=sports-injuries-statistics-90-P01650

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianbushard/2022/07/14/62-million-us-children-suffered-traumatic-brain-injuries-from-sports-equipment-from-2000-to-2019-with-a-higher-increase-among-girls-study-finds/

------

All of this is to say, that one case doesn't show that it is anything more than the same sort of accident that happens too often among all same-sex, non-transgender students. It happens regardless of transgender participation.

I'm not advocating any particular approach to transgender students in sports, just that focusing on this one case ignores the context of such injury.

As a side note, from reading the news around this, none of the people involved have even said that the student in question is transgender. I can't tell where that claim came from. Maybe they are transgender, but it isn't stated.

OK, Groomer.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: SHARK on October 23, 2022, 04:34:41 PM
Greetings!

The fucking reaks need to be beaten. Why are they even crawling out from amidst the sewers where they live?

Because society at large has been intimidated and cucked into somehow accepting these fucking animals as being normal.

NO--they don't get to use WOMEN'S BATHROOMS. I don't care what they want, or what they feel, or what their feelings are. I don't care what they are deluded as. They are fucking males wearing a goddamned wig and a skirt.

NO--they don't get to act out their ucking mental illness o believing they are somehow a female and play with REAL WOMEN on WOMEN'S SPORTS TEAMS.

Who even lets these fucking mentally ill jackasses play on a fucking women's sports team? SUE THEM INTO THE POOR HOUSE. Break them. Start public campaigns showing society how they coddle and support these fucking mentally ill degenerates.

YOUNG GIRL's NEED TO BE PROTECTED FROM THE DEGENERATES!

Older women, in college, everywhere, also deserve to be protected from these degenerates. Society needs to crush the degenerates. Otherwise, we will continue to waste away from the degenerate corruption eating and spreading through society.

So fucking tragic. But, in a perverse manner, good. Let more girls get plundered, fucked, injured, or otherwise ruined by these fucking animals. Let the rolls of ruined girls stack the fuck up. What will it take for the rest of society to say, enough is enough? When will society be tired of the corruption, and the behavior and lifestyles of the corrupt degenerates?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 23, 2022, 09:13:36 PM
Same with most sports....people who have no concept of physical culture, understanding of the DRASTIC difference between men and women regarding strength and power production in the moment of performance or who just never lift weights or play sports do not understand this and maybe never will.  Maybe they just ignore reality period. I do not know, I prefer to err on the side that people thinking there is no difference in chances of injuries when men play against women are just bookish nerds with zero experience with sports, full contact activities, or any real attempts at training their physical potential.

Volleyball is actually the sport I have the most personal experience with. I played volleyball recreationally in undergrad, and was in the summer volleyball league at Fermilab during grad school. That's not the same as top competitive play, but it's something I understand. The league I played in was mixed gender, and indeed, mixed gender volleyball is regularly played in the U.S. and elsewhere. I just watched some here to refresh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-XOz7mIFTQ

Men are generally larger and stronger than women, but there is still a long history of competitive mixed-gender sports - like mixed doubles tennis and mixed-team volleyball. These have been around for many decades.

In coed volleyball, there are rules for fairness and for safety - but it is still true that women are often hitting back a ball that has been hit by men. According your safety argument, coed volleyball should have an unacceptable level of injury such that it be banned, regardless of any transgender issues. I don't see any movement for such, though. I see lots of such tournaments being held with no controversy.

I can't find from quick search any concussion rates for coed compared to single-gender volleyball. I'm not claiming that I know the rate is the same. But I also don't think it will be off the charts as you claim.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 23, 2022, 09:22:10 PM
In case anyone wasn't aware that jhkim was a disingenuous twat, please note that he just argued that, because car accidents are so frequent, we should not draw any conclusions about someone who has an accident while driving drunk...

I'm right here, Eirikrautha. It's weird talking about me in the third person.

My argument is that because car accidents are so frequent, a single car accident isn't proof of anything either way. For example, if someone wanted to argue that the current alcohol limits should be 4 times lower, and they point to a single accident with under current BAC limits, then that isn't significant evidence.

---

For kids' safety, I think evidence is vital. As a parent, I find there are a lot of things that other parents worry about that aren't statistically significant (like nuclear power accidents and serial killers), and a lot of things that parents often ignore that are quite dangerous. I myself was surprised to see that girls volleyball is second only to boys football in concussion events. I have long had misgivings about boys football given the brain damage rate. When I was teaching high school, I went to student football games because they invited me and I wanted to support them, but I did feel uneasy about it knowing the danger of not just obvious concussions, but also long-term damage.

Because I'm talking about you, not to you.  Why would I waste my breath when you have already proven that you will make ridiculous statements in order to avoid the clear issue expressed by this thread?

How about this:  There are hundreds of violent assaults committed every day.  So the fact that one was committed with a gun should not affect our response to it or other assaults (or even guns) at all.

Or, perhaps, the fact that a gun can do more damage to more people more quickly makes an assault with one a bit different than one with a fist or rolling pin?  Maybe an accident that stems from confusion or inattention might be less severe or less likely than one due to drunk driving?  In both scenarios the law agrees that both of those circumstances are different, and the charges and penalties are different for each.  So, when the assertion is that an athletic boy pretending to be a girl can hit the ball harder than the average girl (in fact, harder than the strongest girls), and therefore is more likely to cause injuries in a sport that is already injury prone, your response is to say that the severity or additional risk doesn't matter because... people already get hurt.  And you expect any of us to treat you as anything other than a disingenuous troll?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Zelen on October 23, 2022, 09:57:03 PM
I'm fully in favor of showing anyone who promotes, apologizes for, or encourages child genital mutilation & sexual grooming the door.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 24, 2022, 05:03:59 AM
Same with most sports....people who have no concept of physical culture, understanding of the DRASTIC difference between men and women regarding strength and power production in the moment of performance or who just never lift weights or play sports do not understand this and maybe never will.  Maybe they just ignore reality period. I do not know, I prefer to err on the side that people thinking there is no difference in chances of injuries when men play against women are just bookish nerds with zero experience with sports, full contact activities, or any real attempts at training their physical potential.

Volleyball is actually the sport I have the most personal experience with. I played volleyball recreationally in undergrad, and was in the summer volleyball league at Fermilab during grad school. That's not the same as top competitive play, but it's something I understand. The league I played in was mixed gender, and indeed, mixed gender volleyball is regularly played in the U.S. and elsewhere. I just watched some here to refresh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-XOz7mIFTQ

Men are generally larger and stronger than women, but there is still a long history of competitive mixed-gender sports - like mixed doubles tennis and mixed-team volleyball. These have been around for many decades.

In coed volleyball, there are rules for fairness and for safety - but it is still true that women are often hitting back a ball that has been hit by men. According your safety argument, coed volleyball should have an unacceptable level of injury such that it be banned, regardless of any transgender issues. I don't see any movement for such, though. I see lots of such tournaments being held with no controversy.

I can't find from quick search any concussion rates for coed compared to single-gender volleyball. I'm not claiming that I know the rate is the same. But I also don't think it will be off the charts as you claim.

  There are co ed beer pong teams and darts competitions too for couch potatoes to get some exercise.  Bringing a rec league up in an attempt to make a comparison tells me you are as clueless as I said you are.    You even undermine your own point by saying there are special rules when mixed....did you get a concussion playing against those women?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 24, 2022, 05:13:29 AM
Same with most sports....people who have no concept of physical culture, understanding of the DRASTIC difference between men and women regarding strength and power production in the moment of performance or who just never lift weights or play sports do not understand this and maybe never will.  Maybe they just ignore reality period. I do not know, I prefer to err on the side that people thinking there is no difference in chances of injuries when men play against women are just bookish nerds with zero experience with sports, full contact activities, or any real attempts at training their physical potential.

Volleyball is actually the sport I have the most personal experience with. I played volleyball recreationally in undergrad, and was in the summer volleyball league at Fermilab during grad school. That's not the same as top competitive play, but it's something I understand. The league I played in was mixed gender, and indeed, mixed gender volleyball is regularly played in the U.S. and elsewhere. I just watched some here to refresh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-XOz7mIFTQ

Men are generally larger and stronger than women, but there is still a long history of competitive mixed-gender sports - like mixed doubles tennis and mixed-team volleyball. These have been around for many decades.

In coed volleyball, there are rules for fairness and for safety - but it is still true that women are often hitting back a ball that has been hit by men. According your safety argument, coed volleyball should have an unacceptable level of injury such that it be banned, regardless of any transgender issues. I don't see any movement for such, though. I see lots of such tournaments being held with no controversy.

I can't find from quick search any concussion rates for coed compared to single-gender volleyball. I'm not claiming that I know the rate is the same. But I also don't think it will be off the charts as you claim.

Hey intellectually dishonest shitbag groomer, this incident where the female player was injured WAS NOT A COED VOLLEYBALL GAME. It was a game where a biological male was declared a female because of bullshit transgender politics. Go find somewhere else to tell your lies.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on October 24, 2022, 09:12:52 AM
Are you degenerates completely missing the fact that the average youth volleyball teams frequently suffer injuries on this scope or worse on a weekly basis, or have you simply chosen to continue ignoring anything that goes doesn't confirm your bias?

Physical sports, esp when played by amateurs coached by volunteer teachers who barely have time to exercise in their free time let alone know more than the cliff notes passed down through the years by OTHER volunteer coaches, are ALWAYS going to involve injuries. I come from a rather sporty family and there is rarely a time when one of my seven nephews/nieces ISN'T injured due to participation in their respective gender-segregated sport of choice.

What a bunch of clowns you all are.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 24, 2022, 02:22:18 PM
  There are co ed beer pong teams and darts competitions too for couch potatoes to get some exercise.  Bringing a rec league up in an attempt to make a comparison tells me you are as clueless as I said you are.    You even undermine your own point by saying there are special rules when mixed....

There are different rules in tournament coed games. However, the accident shown in your original post could legally have happened in a standard tournament coed game, with a male player spiking the ball which strikes a female player halfway back in the court. There is a variant called "reverse coed" where men players can't be up at the net to spike, but that is less common. In my post, I gave a link which shows tournament play (not rec league) where exactly those plays happen.

Hey intellectually dishonest shitbag groomer, this incident where the female player was injured WAS NOT A COED VOLLEYBALL GAME. It was a game where a biological male was declared a female because of bullshit transgender politics. Go find somewhere else to tell your lies.

Hi, jeff37923. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 24, 2022, 03:41:44 PM
  There are co ed beer pong teams and darts competitions too for couch potatoes to get some exercise.  Bringing a rec league up in an attempt to make a comparison tells me you are as clueless as I said you are.    You even undermine your own point by saying there are special rules when mixed....

There are different rules in tournament coed games. However, the accident shown in your original post could legally have happened in a standard tournament coed game, with a male player spiking the ball which strikes a female player halfway back in the court. There is a variant called "reverse coed" where men players can't be up at the net to spike, but that is less common. In my post, I gave a link which shows tournament play (not rec league) where exactly those plays happen.

Hey intellectually dishonest shitbag groomer, this incident where the female player was injured WAS NOT A COED VOLLEYBALL GAME. It was a game where a biological male was declared a female because of bullshit transgender politics. Go find somewhere else to tell your lies.

Hi, jeff37923. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.

Except this wasn't a coed volleyball game. It was supposed to be a women's volleyball game except it had a guy there who hid behind the political bullshit of being a biological male claiming to be trans.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Valatar on October 24, 2022, 04:53:37 PM
Jhkim is making perfect sense.  If boys playing against girls in volleyball don't regularly injure them, there's no reason for someone to expect that letting this boy play against girls was putting them in any danger.  It could well have been a complete fluke, the ball hit at just the worst possible spot, and not an inevitable thing.  It's volleyball, not boxing; getting smashed in the face by your opponent is not an expected outcome of playing.

That said, the team with the girls should have had the option to decline to play against a boy if they felt uncomfortable or at risk from it.  I have no objection to girls competing against boys, as long as they go in informed.  Girl wants to play baseball?  Sure.  Football?  Great.  If she can take the hits, more power to her.  Same for boys going into girls games, so long as everyone agrees beforehand.  But they should have the right to not agree.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 24, 2022, 05:11:23 PM
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.

Except this wasn't a coed volleyball game. It was supposed to be a women's volleyball game except it had a guy there who hid behind the political bullshit of being a biological male claiming to be trans.

We're still talking past each other. Let me try to go through this in steps.

1) The link from oggsmash's original post was a high school girls volleyball game.

2) An unnamed person claimed that the player spiking the ball is transgender, though none of the people involved are quoted as confirming that.

3) The article also suggested this accident was inevitable because the spiking player has greater strength than any non-transgender girl player could have. Having such strength was portrayed as unreasonably dangerous for non-transgender girl players.

4) I questioned this conclusion. For comparison, I looked at the cases of both girls volleyball and coed volleyball.

5) In data going back 17 years, NCAA data found that concussion events in women's volleyball was second only to men's football in frequency.

6) I don't have concussion statistics for coed volleyball, but (a) it has been widely played in championships for decades, (b) standard coed tournament rules allow exactly the accident shown, where a male player spikes the ball and a female player is in the path. I linked to video showing exactly that.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 24, 2022, 07:08:55 PM
   The person spiking the ball was a trannie.  If you look around it is pretty obvious, and every team in the conference immediately declined playing any future games against the team so long as that player is on the team.  Coed volleyball is still a non starter....you are talking about a situation where the women know exactly what they are getting into (and honestly not likely to compete against any athletic men) and are older.  That is a poor comparison to teens who likely have parents and coaches too afraid to just tell the other team "no thanks".  Have no worries, should this bullshit roll over towards my zip code, you will get a chance to read a story about me and the other parents giving that one a very loud, very boisterous hard pass.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 25, 2022, 05:14:59 AM
Jhkim is making perfect sense. If boys playing against girls in volleyball don't regularly injure them, there's no reason for someone to expect that letting this boy play against girls was putting them in any danger.  It could well have been a complete fluke, the ball hit at just the worst possible spot, and not an inevitable thing.  It's volleyball, not boxing; getting smashed in the face by your opponent is not an expected outcome of playing.

That said, the team with the girls should have had the option to decline to play against a boy if they felt uncomfortable or at risk from it.  I have no objection to girls competing against boys, as long as they go in informed.  Girl wants to play baseball?  Sure.  Football?  Great.  If she can take the hits, more power to her.  Same for boys going into girls games, so long as everyone agrees beforehand.  But they should have the right to not agree.

jhkim's argument is based on saying that a biological male is the same as a biological female as long as that male claims to be a male to female trans. That only makes sense in Clown World.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 25, 2022, 05:20:27 AM
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.

Except this wasn't a coed volleyball game. It was supposed to be a women's volleyball game except it had a guy there who hid behind the political bullshit of being a biological male claiming to be trans.

We're still talking past each other. Let me try to go through this in steps.

1) The link from oggsmash's original post was a high school girls volleyball game.

2) An unnamed person claimed that the player spiking the ball is transgender, though none of the people involved are quoted as confirming that.

3) The article also suggested this accident was inevitable because the spiking player has greater strength than any non-transgender girl player could have. Having such strength was portrayed as unreasonably dangerous for non-transgender girl players.

4) I questioned this conclusion. For comparison, I looked at the cases of both girls volleyball and coed volleyball.

5) In data going back 17 years, NCAA data found that concussion events in women's volleyball was second only to men's football in frequency.

6) I don't have concussion statistics for coed volleyball, but (a) it has been widely played in championships for decades, (b) standard coed tournament rules allow exactly the accident shown, where a male player spikes the ball and a female player is in the path. I linked to video showing exactly that.

No, you are being intellectually dishonest and NOW claiming that the player spiking the ball was not a male-to-female trans. At first, you were dismissing the injury to the female player based upon your argument that coed volleyball is the same as all women's or all men's volleyball - which gets thrown out the window when you claim that a biological male trans is the same as a woman.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: The Spaniard on October 25, 2022, 11:26:53 AM
Same with most sports....people who have no concept of physical culture, understanding of the DRASTIC difference between men and women regarding strength and power production in the moment of performance or who just never lift weights or play sports do not understand this and maybe never will.  Maybe they just ignore reality period. I do not know, I prefer to err on the side that people thinking there is no difference in chances of injuries when men play against women are just bookish nerds with zero experience with sports, full contact activities, or any real attempts at training their physical potential.

Volleyball is actually the sport I have the most personal experience with. I played volleyball recreationally in undergrad, and was in the summer volleyball league at Fermilab during grad school. That's not the same as top competitive play, but it's something I understand. The league I played in was mixed gender, and indeed, mixed gender volleyball is regularly played in the U.S. and elsewhere. I just watched some here to refresh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-XOz7mIFTQ

Men are generally larger and stronger than women, but there is still a long history of competitive mixed-gender sports - like mixed doubles tennis and mixed-team volleyball. These have been around for many decades.

In coed volleyball, there are rules for fairness and for safety - but it is still true that women are often hitting back a ball that has been hit by men. According your safety argument, coed volleyball should have an unacceptable level of injury such that it be banned, regardless of any transgender issues. I don't see any movement for such, though. I see lots of such tournaments being held with no controversy.

I can't find from quick search any concussion rates for coed compared to single-gender volleyball. I'm not claiming that I know the rate is the same. But I also don't think it will be off the charts as you claim.

But this wasn't co-ed volleyball, right?  It was a girl's volleyball game in which a boy was playing for the other team.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 25, 2022, 07:34:50 PM
Jhkim is making perfect sense.  If boys playing against girls in volleyball don't regularly injure them, there's no reason for someone to expect that letting this boy play against girls was putting them in any danger.  It could well have been a complete fluke, the ball hit at just the worst possible spot, and not an inevitable thing.  It's volleyball, not boxing; getting smashed in the face by your opponent is not an expected outcome of playing.

Thanks, Valatar. I've been having trouble conveying this, but that is what I was trying to say.

That said, the team with the girls should have had the option to decline to play against a boy if they felt uncomfortable or at risk from it.  I have no objection to girls competing against boys, as long as they go in informed.  Girl wants to play baseball?  Sure.  Football?  Great.  If she can take the hits, more power to her.  Same for boys going into girls games, so long as everyone agrees beforehand.  But they should have the right to not agree.

Fair enough. It makes sense that if everyone is informed and agrees to play, that it's their business. Zelen suggested that girls' athletics should all be participation only with no championships. I don't think there needs to be only one approach - different places can run things differently.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 25, 2022, 08:00:25 PM
No, you are being intellectually dishonest and NOW claiming that the player spiking the ball was not a male-to-female trans. At first, you were dismissing the injury to the female player based upon your argument that coed volleyball is the same as all women's or all men's volleyball - which gets thrown out the window when you claim that a biological male trans is the same as a woman.

I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

I'd also assert that in tournament coed games, male players can and do spike the ball at where female players are.

Transgender people who transition to female are generally larger and stronger than non-transgender girls/women, but they're not stronger or more dangerous than non-transgender boys/men.


But this wasn't co-ed volleyball, right?  It was a girl's volleyball game in which a boy was playing for the other team.

It was a girl's volleyball game, yes. I've tried to explain my point again above. I am sorry if it isn't coming through clearly.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 26, 2022, 07:55:33 AM
No, you are being intellectually dishonest and NOW claiming that the player spiking the ball was not a male-to-female trans. At first, you were dismissing the injury to the female player based upon your argument that coed volleyball is the same as all women's or all men's volleyball - which gets thrown out the window when you claim that a biological male trans is the same as a woman.

I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

I'd also assert that in tournament coed games, male players can and do spike the ball at where female players are.

Transgender people who transition to female are generally larger and stronger than non-transgender girls/women, but they're not stronger or more dangerous than non-transgender boys/men.



Article linked in OP which started the thread.

https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina

jhkim's response =
I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

Transgender people who transition to female are generally larger and stronger than non-transgender girls/women, but they're not stronger or more dangerous than non-transgender boys/men.

Bolding mine, because it is intellectually dishonest to say that you don't know if a player was trans or not when the headline of the article quoted is "HS Volleyball Player injured by Transgender Competitor in North Carolina".

jhkim further demonstrates his ability to lie by stating, in the same post, that while male-to-female trans are generally larger and stronger, they are not more dangerous. This boggles the mind with the mental gymnastics displayed.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 26, 2022, 12:24:53 PM
I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

Bolding mine, because it is intellectually dishonest to say that you don't know if a player was trans or not when the headline of the article quoted is "HS Volleyball Player injured by Transgender Competitor in North Carolina".

So is your claim that everyone should believe any media headline they read? And that anyone who doesn't believe every headline they read is intellectually dishonest?

No, I don't immediately believe media headlines. In this case, I read the article and looked for their source. When I searched and read other articles about this, the officials involved specifically said they did not know if the student was transgender. Jeff Martin, who was quoted in the OP article, also said "I think it’s inappropriate for us to discuss that particular individual’s genetics or what have you in the context of where we are here. That brings it into a different realm of an issue."

I'm fine assuming that the student is transgender - I just don't have the standard that anything that appears in a media headline must be true.


jhkim further demonstrates his ability to lie by stating, in the same post, that while male-to-female trans are generally larger and stronger, they are not more dangerous. This boggles the mind with the mental gymnastics displayed.

I said that transgender athletes are not more dangerous than non-transgender male athletes. Again, if non-transgender male players spiking the ball at female players is accepted in games, then transgender players are not a greater danger.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 26, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

Bolding mine, because it is intellectually dishonest to say that you don't know if a player was trans or not when the headline of the article quoted is "HS Volleyball Player injured by Transgender Competitor in North Carolina".

So is your claim that everyone should believe any media headline they read? And that anyone who doesn't believe every headline they read is intellectually dishonest?

No, I don't immediately believe media headlines. In this case, I read the article and looked for their source. When I searched and read other articles about this, the officials involved specifically said they did not know if the student was transgender. Jeff Martin, who was quoted in the OP article, also said "I think it’s inappropriate for us to discuss that particular individual’s genetics or what have you in the context of where we are here. That brings it into a different realm of an issue."

I'm fine assuming that the student is transgender - I just don't have the standard that anything that appears in a media headline must be true.


jhkim further demonstrates his ability to lie by stating, in the same post, that while male-to-female trans are generally larger and stronger, they are not more dangerous. This boggles the mind with the mental gymnastics displayed.

I said that transgender athletes are not more dangerous than non-transgender male athletes. Again, if non-transgender male players spiking the ball at female players is accepted in games, then transgender players are not a greater danger.

If you don't believe in the headline for the article that started this conversation, then why have you been basing you argument for a page and a half on it? It has only been in the last few posts, after your bullshit coed stance was destroyed, that you decided to try and say that the headline is false and the player causing the injury wasn't a trans.

C'mon groomer, lie some more!
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 26, 2022, 02:53:17 PM
If you don't believe in the headline for the article that started this conversation, then why have you been basing you argument for a page and a half on it? It has only been in the last few posts, after your bullshit coed stance was destroyed, that you decided to try and say that the headline is false and the player causing the injury wasn't a trans.

C'mon groomer, lie some more!

Read my first post to this thread, reply #1 dated Oct 20. Here is the last line from that:

Quote
As a side note, from reading the news around this, none of the people involved have even said that the student in question is transgender. I can't tell where that claim came from. Maybe they are transgender, but it isn't stated.

Link: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/high-school-volleyball-player-injured-in-game-against-trans-player-and-people/msg1233424/#msg1233424

Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 27, 2022, 12:54:59 AM
If you don't believe in the headline for the article that started this conversation, then why have you been basing you argument for a page and a half on it? It has only been in the last few posts, after your bullshit coed stance was destroyed, that you decided to try and say that the headline is false and the player causing the injury wasn't a trans.

C'mon groomer, lie some more!

Read my first post to this thread, reply #1 dated Oct 20. Here is the last line from that:

Quote
As a side note, from reading the news around this, none of the people involved have even said that the student in question is transgender. I can't tell where that claim came from. Maybe they are transgender, but it isn't stated.

Link: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/high-school-volleyball-player-injured-in-game-against-trans-player-and-people/msg1233424/#msg1233424

I understand how reality is inconvenient to your narrative, but this isn't the first time that you have been a disingenuous twat. Or are all of these news sources wrong?



https://www.foxnews.com/sports/transgender-high-school-volleyball-player-appears-feature-spike-injured-opponent-highlight-reel

https://www.outkick.com/trans-hs-volleyball-player-that-injured-female-opponent-posts-highlight-reel/

https://www.metroweekly.com/2022/10/school-district-forfeits-all-volleyball-matches-against-team-with-trans-player/

https://nypost.com/2022/10/22/north-carolina-school-district-votes-to-forfeit-games-against-rival-after-transgender-athlete-injures-player/

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/female-high-school-volleyball-athlete-suffers-serious-head-injury-after-transgender-player-throws-abnormally-fast-ball/

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/fairness-justice/district-forfeits-games-transgender-player

https://thepostmillennial.com/north-carolina-school-board-blocks-further-games-with-competing-school-following-injury-caused-by-transgender-player
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 27, 2022, 02:02:23 AM
It has only been in the last few posts, after your bullshit coed stance was destroyed, that you decided to try and say that the headline is false and the player causing the injury wasn't a trans.

Read my first post to this thread, reply #1 dated Oct 20. Here is the last line from that:

Quote
As a side note, from reading the news around this, none of the people involved have even said that the student in question is transgender. I can't tell where that claim came from. Maybe they are transgender, but it isn't stated.

Link: https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/high-school-volleyball-player-injured-in-game-against-trans-player-and-people/msg1233424/#msg1233424

I understand how reality is inconvenient to your narrative, but this isn't the first time that you have been a disingenuous twat. Or are all of these news sources wrong?

1) In the bolded line above, you claimed that it was "only in the last few posts" that I supposedly said the headline was false -- that I had shifted my position. I then posted how I said exactly the same thing in my first post to this thread in reply #1, which shows I have not shifted anything.

2) I also never claimed that the news sources were wrong. Saying that I don't instantly believe something isn't the same as saying they are wrong.

3) Whether the individual student is transgender has no bearing on what else I have said, which was about general policies about volleyball and the supposed danger of male players spiking the ball at female players. Again, non-transgender male players spike the ball at female players in coed games. Transgender players aren't stronger or more dangerous than men, so the danger is no greater than coed games.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Valatar on October 27, 2022, 03:13:21 PM
jhkim's argument is based on saying that a biological male is the same as a biological female as long as that male claims to be a male to female trans. That only makes sense in Clown World.

While there are people who are claiming that having six inches of height and fifteen kilos of muscle over the other players doesn't give the MtFs an advantage in sports, jhkim hasn't made that claim in this thread.  He's stated that a boy playing against girls in volleyball isn't inherently dangerous for the girls.  Which, with the disclaimer that I don't care enough to actually dig for injury statistics in high school volleyball, sounds like a fair enough claim to make.  It's hardly a full-contact sport.

If jhkim had claimed that a dude had zero advantage in reach or strength over girls despite living 80% of his life awash in testosterone and it was perfectly fair and heckin' valid uwu, then I would call bullshit.    But that's a very different claim from saying that he's probably not a danger to the other players.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 27, 2022, 06:34:27 PM
While there are people who are claiming that having six inches of height and fifteen kilos of muscle over the other players doesn't give the MtFs an advantage in sports, jhkim hasn't made that claim in this thread.  He's stated that a boy playing against girls in volleyball isn't inherently dangerous for the girls.  Which, with the disclaimer that I don't care enough to actually dig for injury statistics in high school volleyball, sounds like a fair enough claim to make.  It's hardly a full-contact sport.

If jhkim had claimed that a dude had zero advantage in reach or strength over girls despite living 80% of his life awash in testosterone and it was perfectly fair and heckin' valid uwu, then I would call bullshit.    But that's a very different claim from saying that he's probably not a danger to the other players.

Thanks, Valatar.

To clarify a bit -- I do think there is a danger of concussion and other injury. But lots of high school sports have significant danger of injury regardless of sex. Among high school girls' sports, soccer has the highest concussion rate. Girl's volleyball has a significant concussion rate, around one-third that of boys' football and half that of girl's soccer. Even cheerleading has a significant concussion rate, unsurprising given the acrobatic flips they often do.

cf. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/144/5/e20192180/38225/Concussion-Incidence-and-Trends-in-20-High-School

Still, girls soccer and coed volleyball are generally considered within the acceptable levels of risk, and under standard tournament rules coed games allow exactly the play seen in the original post, with a male player spiking the ball towards a female player.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 27, 2022, 08:38:47 PM
Except it wasn't a coed game.

It was supposed to be an all girls game.

Except one of the girls wasn't.

Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 28, 2022, 05:34:34 AM
Except it wasn't a coed game.

It was supposed to be an all girls game.

Except one of the girls wasn't.

The reality that is inconvenient for jhkim.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 29, 2022, 01:04:09 AM
Except it wasn't a coed game.

It was supposed to be an all girls game.

Except one of the girls wasn't.

That doesn't dispute anything I said. I feel like I have phrased this many times, but to express it as a question. Consider two cases:

1) A non-transgender boy spikes the ball in a coed game
2) A transgender player spikes the ball in a girls game

Which of these is more dangerous to girl players? On what basis do you claim that?

To my mind, the transgender player is no greater strength than the non-transgender male players, so the danger is at most equivalent.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 29, 2022, 08:33:24 AM
Except it wasn't a coed game.

It was supposed to be an all girls game.

Except one of the girls wasn't.

That doesn't dispute anything I said. I feel like I have phrased this many times, but to express it as a question. Consider two cases:

1) A non-transgender boy spikes the ball in a coed game
2) A transgender player spikes the ball in a girls game

Which of these is more dangerous to girl players? On what basis do you claim that?

To my mind, the transgender player is no greater strength than the non-transgender male players, so the danger is at most equivalent.
A soldier gets shot at on the battlefield.  As a store clerk the same person gets shot at during a robbery.  Which of these is more dangerous?  Therefore, it's no big deal for criminals to use guns in a robbery.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: rytrasmi on October 29, 2022, 09:24:30 AM

That doesn't dispute anything I said. I feel like I have phrased this many times, but to express it as a question. Consider two cases:

1) A non-transgender boy spikes the ball in a coed game
2) A transgender player spikes the ball in a girls game

Which of these is more dangerous to girl players? On what basis do you claim that?
Case 2) is obviously more dangerous to girl players because there is a 100% chance the person at the other end of the spike is a girl. In case 1), that chance is less than 100% and probably 50% depending on the required male/female makeup of the teams.

So yeah, it’s twice as dangerous to girl players.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 29, 2022, 10:55:33 AM
Except it wasn't a coed game.

It was supposed to be an all girls game.

Except one of the girls wasn't.

That doesn't dispute anything I said. I feel like I have phrased this many times, but to express it as a question. Consider two cases:

1) A non-transgender boy spikes the ball in a coed game
2) A transgender player spikes the ball in a girls game

Which of these is more dangerous to girl players? On what basis do you claim that?

To my mind, the transgender player is no greater strength than the non-transgender male players, so the danger is at most equivalent.
Because the expectation in a GIRL'S game is that they will be playing other GIRLS.

Not boys. GIRLS. Do you comprehend this? Did it go by too fast? Do you need me to spell it out more clearly?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 29, 2022, 11:27:33 AM
Case 2) is obviously more dangerous to girl players because there is a 100% chance the person at the other end of the spike is a girl. In case 1), that chance is less than 100% and probably 50% depending on the required male/female makeup of the teams.

So yeah, it’s twice as dangerous to girl players.

First of all, thanks. That's a sensible argument that comes towards what I wrote. You're assuming only one transgender player among both girls teams, which seems reasonable. That said,

1) Since they have boys on both sides, the coed games will have boy-delivered spikes at at least twice the rate as the girl games have transgender-delivered spikes. So that at least doubles the overall danger in coed games.

2) You assume that volleyball spikes are aimed at random, whereas in my experience, a spiker will try to hit it towards whoever is the least-capable player on the other team. Given that we're saying girl players are weaker, that means that it will be more than the 50% you assume.


Because the expectation in a GIRL'S game is that they will be playing other GIRLS.

How does that expectation change the danger? If the girls team knows in advance, will that change things?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on October 29, 2022, 01:28:04 PM
Case 2) is obviously more dangerous to girl players because there is a 100% chance the person at the other end of the spike is a girl. In case 1), that chance is less than 100% and probably 50% depending on the required male/female makeup of the teams.

So yeah, it’s twice as dangerous to girl players.

First of all, thanks. That's a sensible argument that comes towards what I wrote. You're assuming only one transgender player among both girls teams, which seems reasonable. That said,

1) Since they have boys on both sides, the coed games will have boy-delivered spikes at at least twice the rate as the girl games have transgender-delivered spikes. So that at least doubles the overall danger in coed games.

2) You assume that volleyball spikes are aimed at random, whereas in my experience, a spiker will try to hit it towards whoever is the least-capable player on the other team. Given that we're saying girl players are weaker, that means that it will be more than the 50% you assume.


Because the expectation in a GIRL'S game is that they will be playing other GIRLS.

How does that expectation change the danger? If the girls team knows in advance, will that change things?

OK, Groomer.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 29, 2022, 05:04:45 PM
   Recreational coed volley ball tends to have DIFFERENT rules than competitive volleyball (ie actual athletes and not randos playing) especially around men not being allowed to spike in the front court on a women's height net.....I WONDER why they have rules like that????  Fucktards seem to pretend there are not large gaps in physiological ability (especially when actual athletes are on the court and not math nerds trying to get some exercise) and there is no increase in danger.  Fuck off if the obvious escapes you.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 29, 2022, 05:07:27 PM
Except it wasn't a coed game.

It was supposed to be an all girls game.

Except one of the girls wasn't.

That doesn't dispute anything I said. I feel like I have phrased this many times, but to express it as a question. Consider two cases:

1) A non-transgender boy spikes the ball in a coed game
2) A transgender player spikes the ball in a girls game

Which of these is more dangerous to girl players? On what basis do you claim that?

To my mind, the transgender player is no greater strength than the non-transgender male players, so the danger is at most equivalent.

  Coed games rules involve for one...NON athletes, two...males are NOT allowed to spike in the front court in many, many coed rules games.  This is because a girls game is expected to be all girls.  Also coed leagues games assume as I said regular people/non athletes.   In every competitive athletic level past age 11 there IS NO COED FOR A REASON.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 29, 2022, 05:11:55 PM
While there are people who are claiming that having six inches of height and fifteen kilos of muscle over the other players doesn't give the MtFs an advantage in sports, jhkim hasn't made that claim in this thread.  He's stated that a boy playing against girls in volleyball isn't inherently dangerous for the girls.  Which, with the disclaimer that I don't care enough to actually dig for injury statistics in high school volleyball, sounds like a fair enough claim to make.  It's hardly a full-contact sport.

If jhkim had claimed that a dude had zero advantage in reach or strength over girls despite living 80% of his life awash in testosterone and it was perfectly fair and heckin' valid uwu, then I would call bullshit.    But that's a very different claim from saying that he's probably not a danger to the other players.

Thanks, Valatar.

To clarify a bit -- I do think there is a danger of concussion and other injury. But lots of high school sports have significant danger of injury regardless of sex. Among high school girls' sports, soccer has the highest concussion rate. Girl's volleyball has a significant concussion rate, around one-third that of boys' football and half that of girl's soccer. Even cheerleading has a significant concussion rate, unsurprising given the acrobatic flips they often do.

cf. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/144/5/e20192180/38225/Concussion-Incidence-and-Trends-in-20-High-School

Still, girls soccer and coed volleyball are generally considered within the acceptable levels of risk, and under standard tournament rules coed games allow exactly the play seen in the original post, with a male player spiking the ball towards a female player.

  This is not exactly true, as it depends on the net height, if a women's height net Men are NOT ALLOWED TO SPIKE IN THE FRONT COURT AT ALL.  They may hit (overhand) but they can not spike.  I am going to assume you do not understand the differences so you are just thinking they are the same situation.  They are not close, with a 7 inch difference in height (which if it is men's height a man can spike in the front court, and given the non competitive athletes in the front court, this is much less an issue at the greater height)

  So in short your entire argument is complete bullshit since this was clearly a case of a dude spiking in the front court on a female height net.  Something illegal in the coed play you keep attempting to invoke as some sort of rationalization that this was OK. 
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on October 29, 2022, 05:14:48 PM
Are you degenerates completely missing the fact that the average youth volleyball teams frequently suffer injuries on this scope or worse on a weekly basis, or have you simply chosen to continue ignoring anything that goes doesn't confirm your bias?

Physical sports, esp when played by amateurs coached by volunteer teachers who barely have time to exercise in their free time let alone know more than the cliff notes passed down through the years by OTHER volunteer coaches, are ALWAYS going to involve injuries. I come from a rather sporty family and there is rarely a time when one of my seven nephews/nieces ISN'T injured due to participation in their respective gender-segregated sport of choice.

What a bunch of clowns you all are.

  You are an outright liar.  I am way, way, way more familiar with youth volleyball than I want to be, and injuries are EXTREMELY uncommon to a team, like 1 per season and almost always something pretty minor like an ankle sprain.  If your "sporty" family is so laden by injuries that is Darwin trying to tell you and your family something.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on October 29, 2022, 05:53:31 PM
Still, girls soccer and coed volleyball are generally considered within the acceptable levels of risk, and under standard tournament rules coed games allow exactly the play seen in the original post, with a male player spiking the ball towards a female player.

  This is not exactly true, as it depends on the net height, if a women's height net Men are NOT ALLOWED TO SPIKE IN THE FRONT COURT AT ALL.  They may hit (overhand) but they can not spike.  I am going to assume you do not understand the differences so you are just thinking they are the same situation.
  So in short your entire argument is complete bullshit since this was clearly a case of a dude spiking in the front court on a female height net.  Something illegal in the coed play you keep attempting to invoke as some sort of rationalization that this was OK.

I specifically mentioned "reverse coed" as a variant back in my Reply #17 (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/high-school-volleyball-player-injured-in-game-against-trans-player-and-people/msg1233616/#msg1233616), so yes, I do understand this and I already mentioned it. However, the standard tournament rules use a men's height net and men are allowed to spike. It is called "reverse" because it is not the usual case, according to the national association "Volleyball USA".

So, yes, the net height is a difference between a standard coed game and a standard girls game. The girl's game will have the net set 7 inches lower.

I accept that it isn't an exact parallel, then, and I can't say exactly the effect that it would have.

Given this, if a school changed it so that all volleyball games (boys/girls/coed) had the net set at the same height as standard coed, do you think that girls games would then be safe enough regardless of transgender participation?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: rytrasmi on November 01, 2022, 09:05:07 AM
Case 2) is obviously more dangerous to girl players because there is a 100% chance the person at the other end of the spike is a girl. In case 1), that chance is less than 100% and probably 50% depending on the required male/female makeup of the teams.

So yeah, it’s twice as dangerous to girl players.

First of all, thanks. That's a sensible argument that comes towards what I wrote. You're assuming only one transgender player among both girls teams, which seems reasonable. That said,

1) Since they have boys on both sides, the coed games will have boy-delivered spikes at at least twice the rate as the girl games have transgender-delivered spikes. So that at least doubles the overall danger in coed games.

2) You assume that volleyball spikes are aimed at random, whereas in my experience, a spiker will try to hit it towards whoever is the least-capable player on the other team. Given that we're saying girl players are weaker, that means that it will be more than the 50% you assume.


Because the expectation in a GIRL'S game is that they will be playing other GIRLS.

How does that expectation change the danger? If the girls team knows in advance, will that change things?
I dunno. We can slice and dice the stats for days, but it comes down to more male bodies on one team. This means more power and more risk of injury for the other team. Co-ed rules require a minimum number of women per team and if one of those "women" has a male body, then they are gaming the rules.

Edit:

Recalling this is a comparative analysis, the extra strength provided by the extra male body is going to have a larger effect in the women-only game. It's simple ratios. With two teams each having a smaller overall strength (i.e., women's teams), an increase in one player's strength will have a greater effect than with two teams that each have a larger overall strength (i.e., co-ed teams).
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on November 01, 2022, 11:14:38 AM
Because the expectation in a GIRL'S game is that they will be playing other GIRLS.
How does that expectation change the danger? If the girls team knows in advance, will that change things?

I dunno. We can slice and dice the stats for days, but it comes down to more male bodies on one team. This means more power and more risk of injury for the other team. Co-ed rules require a minimum number of women per team and if one of those "women" has a male body, then they are gaming the rules.

So if more male bodies is more risk of injury, then coed games with roughly 50% male players are clearly more dangerous than girls games with a single transgender player.

Isn't that the conclusion from your logic here?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: rytrasmi on November 01, 2022, 11:25:34 AM
Because the expectation in a GIRL'S game is that they will be playing other GIRLS.
How does that expectation change the danger? If the girls team knows in advance, will that change things?

I dunno. We can slice and dice the stats for days, but it comes down to more male bodies on one team. This means more power and more risk of injury for the other team. Co-ed rules require a minimum number of women per team and if one of those "women" has a male body, then they are gaming the rules.

So if more male bodies is more risk of injury, then coed games with roughly 50% male players are clearly more dangerous than girls games with a single transgender player.

Isn't that the conclusion from your logic here?
I added this above as well:

Recalling this is a comparative analysis, the extra strength provided by the extra male body is going to have a larger effect in the women-only game. It's simple ratios. With two teams each having a smaller overall strength (i.e., women's teams), an increase in one player's strength will have a greater effect than with two teams that each have a larger overall strength (i.e., co-ed teams).

Sure, let’s say for sake of argument that co-ed is more dangerous than women's games. That’s beside the point. The point is the relative increase in danger, as well as advantage in play, with a male-bodied trans player. A single increase in a smaller pool of strength will have a greater effect than the same increase in a larger pool of strength.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on November 01, 2022, 05:51:50 PM
Still, girls soccer and coed volleyball are generally considered within the acceptable levels of risk, and under standard tournament rules coed games allow exactly the play seen in the original post, with a male player spiking the ball towards a female player.

  This is not exactly true, as it depends on the net height, if a women's height net Men are NOT ALLOWED TO SPIKE IN THE FRONT COURT AT ALL.  They may hit (overhand) but they can not spike.  I am going to assume you do not understand the differences so you are just thinking they are the same situation.
  So in short your entire argument is complete bullshit since this was clearly a case of a dude spiking in the front court on a female height net.  Something illegal in the coed play you keep attempting to invoke as some sort of rationalization that this was OK.

I specifically mentioned "reverse coed" as a variant back in my Reply #17 (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/high-school-volleyball-player-injured-in-game-against-trans-player-and-people/msg1233616/#msg1233616), so yes, I do understand this and I already mentioned it. However, the standard tournament rules use a men's height net and men are allowed to spike. It is called "reverse" because it is not the usual case, according to the national association "Volleyball USA".

So, yes, the net height is a difference between a standard coed game and a standard girls game. The girl's game will have the net set 7 inches lower.

I accept that it isn't an exact parallel, then, and I can't say exactly the effect that it would have.

Given this, if a school changed it so that all volleyball games (boys/girls/coed) had the net set at the same height as standard coed, do you think that girls games would then be safe enough regardless of transgender participation?

  So your solution is to make girls play on a men's height net so that the transgenders do not have a good a chance at hurting them?   Men are allowed to spike on the higher net for a couple reasons in those exception games....a man gets A LOT higher over a girls net than a man's net, and the reality is the girls in those games do not usually play the front row because of this.  You are still dodging the issue, it is MORE DANGEROUS FOR MEN TO PLAY AGAINST WOMEN IN A WOMEN"S GAME PERIOD. 

   I suppose if you just make it a men's net of course trannies won't be able to spike on the girls the same way.  Of course this will also mean a lot less spikes from the women period.  I am sure the female players would LOVE this massive change to their sport....instead of just using common sense and have ONLY FEMALES in a girls game.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on November 01, 2022, 06:11:54 PM
  But I will sum up my first answer to safety again here, since you missed it before.  No transgenders playing girl's sports.  Period.  No problems now.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on November 03, 2022, 01:48:39 AM
  But I will sum up my first answer to safety again here, since you missed it before.  No transgenders playing girl's sports.  Period.  No problems now.

Do you really consider it "no problems" that there are over 300,000 concussions every year in girls sports?

Coming into this conversation, I knew roughly about the dangers of concussion from boys football. I had to look up the stats for girls sports, though, and I was surprised that girls soccer had a concussion rate almost as high (75%), and that girls volleyball was nearly a third as high. Seeing those stats makes me think that there is a problem that has nothing to do with transgender players. Roughly half of all the 2.5 million concussions per year among high school students are from sports. I don't have definite solutions, but it seems to me that this is a problem throughout school sports.

It seems unfeeling to dismiss out of hand the 300,000 concussions every year from girls sports (and many more in boys sports) - but to be seething with outrage over a single concussion if it involves a transgender player.

cf. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6724a3.htm
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Eirikrautha on November 03, 2022, 06:49:11 AM
  But I will sum up my first answer to safety again here, since you missed it before.  No transgenders playing girl's sports.  Period.  No problems now.

Do you really consider it "no problems" that there are over 300,000 concussions every year in girls sports?

Coming into this conversation, I knew roughly about the dangers of concussion from boys football. I had to look up the stats for girls sports, though, and I was surprised that girls soccer had a concussion rate almost as high (75%), and that girls volleyball was nearly a third as high. Seeing those stats makes me think that there is a problem that has nothing to do with transgender players. Roughly half of all the 2.5 million concussions per year among high school students are from sports. I don't have definite solutions, but it seems to me that this is a problem throughout school sports.

It seems unfeeling to dismiss out of hand the 300,000 concussions every year from girls sports (and many more in boys sports) - but to be seething with outrage over a single concussion if it involves a transgender player.

cf. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6724a3.htm

Ok, folks, this is what is known as "deflection."  Once he has run out of objections to the "boys shouldn't be in girls sports" part of the argument, he now changes direction and accuses opponents of being "unfeeling" (a mortal insult to lefties, because so much of their bullshit is based on emotion, not logic) because they want to focus on one source of concussions, as opposed to the gross number of them.  Of course, anyone with a brain knows that, if concussions are a problem, the last thing you want to do is introduce another source of them (like... uhhh... letting boys play against the girls).  But he hopes to gloss over that with generalized ad hominems about heartlessness, and thereby deflect from the fact that he changed arguments.  A master class in deceptive argument, really...
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 03, 2022, 07:59:25 AM
His responses remind me of a series of responses seen from a leftist elsewhere:

Quote
#1 The “I can’t hear you” response. He behaves as if a request to respond or to answer a question was not made, or that he never read it. This seems to be his favorite.

#2 The “What’s the point” response. He complains that it is pointless to respond because he won’t be believed anyway. One often finds this on a playground during third grade recess.

#3 The “I’m not alone” response. He states his opinion, and then he points to the writings of other people who share his opinion, as if the request were about votes instead of verifiable facts, logic, and reasoned thought.

#4 The “How ’bout that anthrax, eh?” response. He simply tries to change the subject. This is also known as the “Hey, look! A pony!” response.

#5 The “I’m drowning in stupidity” response. He simply lays on the blather, slathering on one turgid catch-phrase, slogan, and cliché after another, and then declares, later, “I answered your question.”

#6 The “How ’bout a little fire, Scarecrow?” response. He deliberately misses the point, laying on one straw man after another.

#7 The “Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin’ camera?” response. Nothing is valid, no matter what the evidence for it is, unless it squares with the conclusions he’s already jumped to.

#8 The “Humpty Dumpty” response. He simply asserts that your words mean what he says they mean. Thus, no matter what you write, it means that he is correct. This is also known as the “We don’t need no stinking dictionary!” response.

#9 The “Nuh-uh! Am not! You are!” response. He simply asserts that the other side is what he doesn’t like his side being accused of. As with #2, one often finds this on a playground during third grade recess.

#10 The “Brave Sir Robin” response. When the monsters get too close, he disappears for a few days, only to reappear and treat everyone as if they didn’t see the monsters.

#11 The “You’re Not Smart Enough For Me To Converse With” response. Found for the first time in this thread from December ’09

#12 The “I’m a deliberate fuckwit!” response. When he discovers, yet again, that he cannot counter his opponent’s argument, he intentionally mischaracterizes his opponent’s argument, reasoning, meaning, and even the plain language of his statements, and then argues against his own mischaracterization as if it shows his opponent to be wrong. He does not care that this shows him to be fundamentally dishonest and/or unable to understand what his opponent actually wrote, but it gives him yet another opportunity to avoid admitting that he is wrong and/or that his opponent is correct. While this response often embodies one or more of his other Standard Responses, overall it is a distinct form that is easily recognized.
(hat tip, Kevin Baker at Smallest Minority)
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: rytrasmi on November 03, 2022, 10:37:39 AM
We can care about concussions and women’s sport.

Besides, the danger aspect is a red herring. The real issue here is sportsmanship. It takes a startling lack of self-awareness and empathy to turn a women’s game into your own personal gender affirming therapy session. Or maybe this person just wants to cheat. Either way it’s a shitty thing to do.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on November 03, 2022, 10:56:24 AM
We can care about concussions and women’s sport.

Besides, the danger aspect is a red herring. The real issue here is sportsmanship.

If volleyball player injury is an irrelevant red herring -- that dismisses the title and original post of this thread. Danger isn't something I introduced. It was the point of the original post.

It takes a startling lack of self-awareness and empathy to turn a women’s game into your own personal gender affirming therapy session. Or maybe this person just wants to cheat. Either way it’s a shitty thing to do.

I don't have a general answer here, but I think this depends on context. For example, my late friend Heather was very into her women's soccer league. Perhaps unsurprisingly for being in the Bay Area, the league was very LGBT-positive, and were welcoming of transgender players. Given the league's attitude, I don't think it is shitty cheating - it is people playing together who enjoy soccer.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on November 03, 2022, 11:03:39 AM
But he hopes to gloss over that with generalized ad hominems about heartlessness, and thereby deflect from the fact that he changed arguments.  A master class in deceptive argument, really...

That's hilarious. Seriously, Eirikrautha?!? You're going to lecture me about ad hominems?

As far as supposedly changing arguments, I would repost again from my Reply #1 (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/high-school-volleyball-player-injured-in-game-against-trans-player-and-people/msg1233424/#msg1233424):

Quote
Sadly, brain injury happens a lot in kids sports - both among boys and girls. I don't see statistics for severe traumatic brain injury in high school girl's volleyball specifically. However, there was a study of concussion events in the smaller sample of NCAA sports. There, girl's volleyball is apparently second only to boy's football in concussion events
...
Quote
All of this is to say, that one case doesn't show that it is anything more than the same sort of accident that happens too often among all same-sex, non-transgender students. It happens regardless of transgender participation.

I'm not advocating any particular approach to transgender students in sports, just that focusing on this one case ignores the context of such injury.

Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: rytrasmi on November 03, 2022, 11:25:50 AM
It takes a startling lack of self-awareness and empathy to turn a women’s game into your own personal gender affirming therapy session. Or maybe this person just wants to cheat. Either way it’s a shitty thing to do.

I don't have a general answer here, but I think this depends on context. For example, my late friend Heather was very into her women's soccer league. Perhaps unsurprisingly for being in the Bay Area, the league was very LGBT-positive, and were welcoming of transgender players. Given the league's attitude, I don't think it is shitty cheating - it is people playing together who enjoy soccer.
Was it a competitive league? Did they actually have trans players or were they just welcoming?

It’s great that people are different and tolerant of others. However, this does not mean we have to be endlessly accommodating.

There is some limit to the number of trans players before a women’s team is no longer a women’s team. I think even you’d agree that a team with 100% trans players is not a women’s team, it’s something else. What’s your limit? One? Two?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Eirikrautha on November 03, 2022, 09:54:49 PM
That's hilarious. Seriously, Eirikrautha?!? You're going to lecture me about ad hominems?
Yes, I am.  Pointing out your rhetorical strategy is not an ad hominem.  Disagreeing with you is not an ad hominem.  Accusing those who disagree with you of being heartless IS an ad hominem.

More importantly, your argument is like suggesting that a diabetic who still drinks soft drinks is already endangering their health, therefore it doesn't make any difference if they also eat candy bars frequently.  The presence of risk does not mean that increases in risk are irrelevant.  Your argument is garbage, and you have a history of such garbage arguments.  That's not an ad hominem, either.  It's a declaration of trends.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: oggsmash on November 22, 2022, 03:59:50 PM
  But I will sum up my first answer to safety again here, since you missed it before.  No transgenders playing girl's sports.  Period.  No problems now.

Do you really consider it "no problems" that there are over 300,000 concussions every year in girls sports?

Coming into this conversation, I knew roughly about the dangers of concussion from boys football. I had to look up the stats for girls sports, though, and I was surprised that girls soccer had a concussion rate almost as high (75%), and that girls volleyball was nearly a third as high. Seeing those stats makes me think that there is a problem that has nothing to do with transgender players. Roughly half of all the 2.5 million concussions per year among high school students are from sports. I don't have definite solutions, but it seems to me that this is a problem throughout school sports.

It seems unfeeling to dismiss out of hand the 300,000 concussions every year from girls sports (and many more in boys sports) - but to be seething with outrage over a single concussion if it involves a transgender player.

cf. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6724a3.htm

 Yes I do consider it no problem, I get a couch potato like you does not realize that playing ANY competitive sport carries with it a certain level of risk.  Letting boys play with girls is like deciding football players will play without helmets now.  Toss in the sorts of "problems" people are going to have when the outrage boils over....and best to avoid the whole mess and boys with boys, girls with girls.  If a girl wants to play football or compete with boys I have no issue with her taking her safety into her own hands.  Just as I have no issue with girls playing girls knowing the risks, tossing a dude in there is going to magnify the risk greatly.  It also is less the point than from a competitive point of view males are much stronger, faster, and more explosive than girls.  Now I dont mean the few female athletes who are stronger than your couch potato self, I mean athletes vs athlete comparisons, of which there is NO COMPARISON. 

   Retards go on and on and then try to make this a "you are not compassionate" argument.....I am a guy who cornered MANY female fighters in MMA....I have no issues with people entering competition understanding the risks....but I would NEVER let one of my female fighters fight a trannie under any circumstances.  If you do not understand the difference I can not make you.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on November 27, 2022, 01:58:47 AM
Catching up on the thread here. First to rytrasmi,

It takes a startling lack of self-awareness and empathy to turn a women’s game into your own personal gender affirming therapy session. Or maybe this person just wants to cheat. Either way it’s a shitty thing to do.

I don't have a general answer here, but I think this depends on context. For example, my late friend Heather was very into her women's soccer league. Perhaps unsurprisingly for being in the Bay Area, the league was very LGBT-positive, and were welcoming of transgender players. Given the league's attitude, I don't think it is shitty cheating - it is people playing together who enjoy soccer.

Was it a competitive league? Did they actually have trans players or were they just welcoming?

It’s great that people are different and tolerant of others. However, this does not mean we have to be endlessly accommodating.

There is some limit to the number of trans players before a women’s team is no longer a women’s team. I think even you’d agree that a team with 100% trans players is not a women’s team, it’s something else. What’s your limit? One? Two?

Yes, they had trans players (my friend Heather was trans), and yes, it is a competitive league.

As for the threshold, leagues can decide for themselves what their criteria are, just like they make other rules. Not all leagues need to have the same rules. I'm not involved in the league, so it's not my call.

Again, I don't have a general answer about how things should be. I just think they should use accurate information and be informed in making decisions. As far as I could tell, Heather's league seemed very LGBT-friendly, and knew what they were getting into. I played briefly with her friend Shannon who was a non-transgender lesbian. I suspect they would be fine with a 100% transgender team.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: crkrueger on December 16, 2022, 11:15:36 AM
There’s two issues here.

First issue is that a boy was playing in a girl’s league where all the competitors expected to play against girls.  In a coed league, you know it’s a coed league and parents and children can decide to participate or not.

The second issue is the danger of men spiking volleyballs to women.
Since there are coed leagues, it’s reasonable to assume it’s not a slaughterhouse for women.  But, they have modified rules.

So, boys playing against girls in volleyball is ok if…Neither one was done in this case.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on December 16, 2022, 12:00:45 PM
Catching up on the thread here. First to rytrasmi,

It takes a startling lack of self-awareness and empathy to turn a women’s game into your own personal gender affirming therapy session. Or maybe this person just wants to cheat. Either way it’s a shitty thing to do.

I don't have a general answer here, but I think this depends on context. For example, my late friend Heather was very into her women's soccer league. Perhaps unsurprisingly for being in the Bay Area, the league was very LGBT-positive, and were welcoming of transgender players. Given the league's attitude, I don't think it is shitty cheating - it is people playing together who enjoy soccer.

Was it a competitive league? Did they actually have trans players or were they just welcoming?

It’s great that people are different and tolerant of others. However, this does not mean we have to be endlessly accommodating.

There is some limit to the number of trans players before a women’s team is no longer a women’s team. I think even you’d agree that a team with 100% trans players is not a women’s team, it’s something else. What’s your limit? One? Two?

Yes, they had trans players (my friend Heather was trans), and yes, it is a competitive league.

As for the threshold, leagues can decide for themselves what their criteria are, just like they make other rules. Not all leagues need to have the same rules. I'm not involved in the league, so it's not my call.

Again, I don't have a general answer about how things should be. I just think they should use accurate information and be informed in making decisions. As far as I could tell, Heather's league seemed very LGBT-friendly, and knew what they were getting into. I played briefly with her friend Shannon who was a non-transgender lesbian. I suspect they would be fine with a 100% transgender team.


A couple of questions -

You said Heather was trans. Is she still trans?

You claim to have played in a GBLT+ friendly coed team. How old were they and you at the time? Were you all adults or high school age?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on December 16, 2022, 01:20:39 PM
You said Heather was trans. Is she still trans?

You claim to have played in a GBLT+ friendly coed team. How old were they and you at the time? Were you all adults or high school age?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Sadly, Heather passed away about six years ago. She identified as transgender for as long as I knew her, up until her passing.

I played tabletop RPGs with Heather for nine years, and with her friend Shannon for about a year. I did not play volleyball with them. Their league was women-only, and by their rules, that included transgender women. It was an adult-only league.


There’s two issues here.

First issue is that a boy was playing in a girl’s league where all the competitors expected to play against girls.  In a coed league, you know it’s a coed league and parents and children can decide to participate or not.

The second issue is the danger of men spiking volleyballs to women.
Since there are coed leagues, it’s reasonable to assume it’s not a slaughterhouse for women.  But, they have modified rules.

So, boys playing against girls in volleyball is ok if…
  • Everyone understands and agrees to boys playing with girls
  • Modified rules for coed leagues are used
Neither one was done in this case.

I believe that the transgender player policy was open and known. In all the interviews I read, none of the coaches or other officials expressed surprise at the policy.

It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

As for the modified rules, the only one that would apply to this case is the net height. I agree that is a difference, but as I said back in reply #47, I am skeptical that this is really the issue. If the net had been set 7 inches higher at standard co-ed net height for all games, then would that change your mind and find transgender players safe and acceptable?
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: crkrueger on December 16, 2022, 07:08:04 PM
In a coed league sure.  As the only boy in a girl’s league, no.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on December 16, 2022, 09:36:43 PM
You said Heather was trans. Is she still trans?

You claim to have played in a GBLT+ friendly coed team. How old were they and you at the time? Were you all adults or high school age?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Sadly, Heather passed away about six years ago. She identified as transgender for as long as I knew her, up until her passing.

I played tabletop RPGs with Heather for nine years, and with her friend Shannon for about a year. I did not play volleyball with them. Their league was women-only, and by their rules, that included transgender women. It was an adult-only league.


There’s two issues here.

First issue is that a boy was playing in a girl’s league where all the competitors expected to play against girls.  In a coed league, you know it’s a coed league and parents and children can decide to participate or not.

The second issue is the danger of men spiking volleyballs to women.
Since there are coed leagues, it’s reasonable to assume it’s not a slaughterhouse for women.  But, they have modified rules.

So, boys playing against girls in volleyball is ok if…
  • Everyone understands and agrees to boys playing with girls
  • Modified rules for coed leagues are used
Neither one was done in this case.

I believe that the transgender player policy was open and known. In all the interviews I read, none of the coaches or other officials expressed surprise at the policy.

It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

As for the modified rules, the only one that would apply to this case is the net height. I agree that is a difference, but as I said back in reply #47, I am skeptical that this is really the issue. If the net had been set 7 inches higher at standard co-ed net height for all games, then would that change your mind and find transgender players safe and acceptable?


What were the circumstances of Heather's death?

And I have never heard of a high school sports team whose players got to weigh in on policy choices, it is usually coaches and elected school officials who determine policy.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on December 17, 2022, 08:13:30 PM
It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

What were the circumstances of Heather's death?

And I have never heard of a high school sports team whose players got to weigh in on policy choices, it is usually coaches and elected school officials who determine policy.

Right. That is what I intended to say. crkrueger and others were saying that it's important that everyone understands and agrees to the policy. I was trying to say that the ideal is for players having choice and/or input on policy.

I don't think Heather's passing relates to the point about league play.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jeff37923 on December 17, 2022, 10:25:50 PM
It's a public high school, so there can't be an open choice about leagues. Given that, I'd prefer if policy should be determined democratically among the players and coaches. As it is, the existing policy was probably determined by elected school officials.

What were the circumstances of Heather's death?

And I have never heard of a high school sports team whose players got to weigh in on policy choices, it is usually coaches and elected school officials who determine policy.

Right. That is what I intended to say. crkrueger and others were saying that it's important that everyone understands and agrees to the policy. I was trying to say that the ideal is for players having choice and/or input on policy.

I don't think Heather's passing relates to the point about league play.

Typically, the players choice or input on policy in high school sports is to choose not to play that sport.

Heather, being a trans, death has got a lot to do with the subject matter if her death was the result of her transitioning. It is why I asked.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: jhkim on December 18, 2022, 07:55:41 PM
So the topic here was originally the alleged danger of transgender athletes in volleyball.

Coed volleyball is common though not the norm, and hasn't resulted in outcry about the dangers. Such games have a different net height, but otherwise, they still have male players spiking the ball towards female players. People do get concussions in coed games, but they also get concussions in same-sex volleyball - probably over a thousand every year.

In general, my opinion is that whether transgender athletes should play in the league should be the business of the people actually playing in the league - not the government or advocates ruling from outside. As I said, the transgender people I've known who were active in athletics seemed to be participating with the full support of their teammates and the league. If people are happily playing together and agreeing, then I don't see the problem.

That goes back around to my personal experience of transgender players in athletics, which my only direct experience with was through my late friend Heather and her soccer league. From what I could tell from her play and her non-transgender teammate Shannon, their league was happy with transgender participation.


Typically, the players choice or input on policy in high school sports is to choose not to play that sport.

Heather, being a trans, death has got a lot to do with the subject matter if her death was the result of her transitioning. It is why I asked.

I don't see how it relates. Sadly, Heather was murdered five years ago by her domestic partner. I was devastated particularly because I didn't learn about it until over a year later. Her family apparently didn't put a lot of effort into contacting her friends, and as she had previously dropped out of our RPG campaign, I thought she just wasn't responding to email.

Domestic violence is unfortunately all too common among both straight and LGBT couples. My fiancee's mother was murdered by the domestic partner of a friend, as another example. Thus, I don't think Heather's death was obviously a result of her transitioning, but it could have been a factor. Even if it was a factor, though, I don't see that it matters to the point about athletics.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Brad on December 19, 2022, 06:04:57 AM
I think at this point I could make a jhkim post generator without too much trouble. Just download the current pedo-party talking points and respond to every question or comment as if you're being wrongfully attacked, regardless of merit.
Title: Re: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...
Post by: Wrath of God on December 20, 2022, 10:21:22 AM
Generally allowing AMABs to female sports is definitely unfair competition - alas I'd say while in terms of specifically contact sports it's also danger - the volleyball is non-contact sport, and such occurence as here counts more as freak accident if anything, and from my HS experience indeed volleyball training matches often were uni-sex in my HS (would be problem to arrange proper teams otherwise).

Of course considering it was some kind of state-league and not merely sport class - the unfair advantage argument is still valid here, volleyball being one of sports where female players play distinctly different due to physical differences and maleborn players should not compete with women.