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Author Topic: High school volleyball player injured in game against Trans player and people...  (Read 3550 times)

jeff37923

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Same with most sports....people who have no concept of physical culture, understanding of the DRASTIC difference between men and women regarding strength and power production in the moment of performance or who just never lift weights or play sports do not understand this and maybe never will.  Maybe they just ignore reality period. I do not know, I prefer to err on the side that people thinking there is no difference in chances of injuries when men play against women are just bookish nerds with zero experience with sports, full contact activities, or any real attempts at training their physical potential.

Volleyball is actually the sport I have the most personal experience with. I played volleyball recreationally in undergrad, and was in the summer volleyball league at Fermilab during grad school. That's not the same as top competitive play, but it's something I understand. The league I played in was mixed gender, and indeed, mixed gender volleyball is regularly played in the U.S. and elsewhere. I just watched some here to refresh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-XOz7mIFTQ

Men are generally larger and stronger than women, but there is still a long history of competitive mixed-gender sports - like mixed doubles tennis and mixed-team volleyball. These have been around for many decades.

In coed volleyball, there are rules for fairness and for safety - but it is still true that women are often hitting back a ball that has been hit by men. According your safety argument, coed volleyball should have an unacceptable level of injury such that it be banned, regardless of any transgender issues. I don't see any movement for such, though. I see lots of such tournaments being held with no controversy.

I can't find from quick search any concussion rates for coed compared to single-gender volleyball. I'm not claiming that I know the rate is the same. But I also don't think it will be off the charts as you claim.

Hey intellectually dishonest shitbag groomer, this incident where the female player was injured WAS NOT A COED VOLLEYBALL GAME. It was a game where a biological male was declared a female because of bullshit transgender politics. Go find somewhere else to tell your lies.
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay

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Are you degenerates completely missing the fact that the average youth volleyball teams frequently suffer injuries on this scope or worse on a weekly basis, or have you simply chosen to continue ignoring anything that goes doesn't confirm your bias?

Physical sports, esp when played by amateurs coached by volunteer teachers who barely have time to exercise in their free time let alone know more than the cliff notes passed down through the years by OTHER volunteer coaches, are ALWAYS going to involve injuries. I come from a rather sporty family and there is rarely a time when one of my seven nephews/nieces ISN'T injured due to participation in their respective gender-segregated sport of choice.

What a bunch of clowns you all are.

jhkim

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  There are co ed beer pong teams and darts competitions too for couch potatoes to get some exercise.  Bringing a rec league up in an attempt to make a comparison tells me you are as clueless as I said you are.    You even undermine your own point by saying there are special rules when mixed....

There are different rules in tournament coed games. However, the accident shown in your original post could legally have happened in a standard tournament coed game, with a male player spiking the ball which strikes a female player halfway back in the court. There is a variant called "reverse coed" where men players can't be up at the net to spike, but that is less common. In my post, I gave a link which shows tournament play (not rec league) where exactly those plays happen.

Hey intellectually dishonest shitbag groomer, this incident where the female player was injured WAS NOT A COED VOLLEYBALL GAME. It was a game where a biological male was declared a female because of bullshit transgender politics. Go find somewhere else to tell your lies.

Hi, jeff37923. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.

jeff37923

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  There are co ed beer pong teams and darts competitions too for couch potatoes to get some exercise.  Bringing a rec league up in an attempt to make a comparison tells me you are as clueless as I said you are.    You even undermine your own point by saying there are special rules when mixed....

There are different rules in tournament coed games. However, the accident shown in your original post could legally have happened in a standard tournament coed game, with a male player spiking the ball which strikes a female player halfway back in the court. There is a variant called "reverse coed" where men players can't be up at the net to spike, but that is less common. In my post, I gave a link which shows tournament play (not rec league) where exactly those plays happen.

Hey intellectually dishonest shitbag groomer, this incident where the female player was injured WAS NOT A COED VOLLEYBALL GAME. It was a game where a biological male was declared a female because of bullshit transgender politics. Go find somewhere else to tell your lies.

Hi, jeff37923. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.

Except this wasn't a coed volleyball game. It was supposed to be a women's volleyball game except it had a guy there who hid behind the political bullshit of being a biological male claiming to be trans.
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

Valatar

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Jhkim is making perfect sense.  If boys playing against girls in volleyball don't regularly injure them, there's no reason for someone to expect that letting this boy play against girls was putting them in any danger.  It could well have been a complete fluke, the ball hit at just the worst possible spot, and not an inevitable thing.  It's volleyball, not boxing; getting smashed in the face by your opponent is not an expected outcome of playing.

That said, the team with the girls should have had the option to decline to play against a boy if they felt uncomfortable or at risk from it.  I have no objection to girls competing against boys, as long as they go in informed.  Girl wants to play baseball?  Sure.  Football?  Great.  If she can take the hits, more power to her.  Same for boys going into girls games, so long as everyone agrees beforehand.  But they should have the right to not agree.

jhkim

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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.

Except this wasn't a coed volleyball game. It was supposed to be a women's volleyball game except it had a guy there who hid behind the political bullshit of being a biological male claiming to be trans.

We're still talking past each other. Let me try to go through this in steps.

1) The link from oggsmash's original post was a high school girls volleyball game.

2) An unnamed person claimed that the player spiking the ball is transgender, though none of the people involved are quoted as confirming that.

3) The article also suggested this accident was inevitable because the spiking player has greater strength than any non-transgender girl player could have. Having such strength was portrayed as unreasonably dangerous for non-transgender girl players.

4) I questioned this conclusion. For comparison, I looked at the cases of both girls volleyball and coed volleyball.

5) In data going back 17 years, NCAA data found that concussion events in women's volleyball was second only to men's football in frequency.

6) I don't have concussion statistics for coed volleyball, but (a) it has been widely played in championships for decades, (b) standard coed tournament rules allow exactly the accident shown, where a male player spikes the ball and a female player is in the path. I linked to video showing exactly that.

oggsmash

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   The person spiking the ball was a trannie.  If you look around it is pretty obvious, and every team in the conference immediately declined playing any future games against the team so long as that player is on the team.  Coed volleyball is still a non starter....you are talking about a situation where the women know exactly what they are getting into (and honestly not likely to compete against any athletic men) and are older.  That is a poor comparison to teens who likely have parents and coaches too afraid to just tell the other team "no thanks".  Have no worries, should this bullshit roll over towards my zip code, you will get a chance to read a story about me and the other parents giving that one a very loud, very boisterous hard pass.

jeff37923

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Jhkim is making perfect sense. If boys playing against girls in volleyball don't regularly injure them, there's no reason for someone to expect that letting this boy play against girls was putting them in any danger.  It could well have been a complete fluke, the ball hit at just the worst possible spot, and not an inevitable thing.  It's volleyball, not boxing; getting smashed in the face by your opponent is not an expected outcome of playing.

That said, the team with the girls should have had the option to decline to play against a boy if they felt uncomfortable or at risk from it.  I have no objection to girls competing against boys, as long as they go in informed.  Girl wants to play baseball?  Sure.  Football?  Great.  If she can take the hits, more power to her.  Same for boys going into girls games, so long as everyone agrees beforehand.  But they should have the right to not agree.

jhkim's argument is based on saying that a biological male is the same as a biological female as long as that male claims to be a male to female trans. That only makes sense in Clown World.
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

jeff37923

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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was not claiming that the game in the original post was coed.

My point is that coed volleyball games are common, and commonly (though not always) have the situation where a male player can spike the ball that is received by a female player. This is relevant in estimating the risks involved in games.

Except this wasn't a coed volleyball game. It was supposed to be a women's volleyball game except it had a guy there who hid behind the political bullshit of being a biological male claiming to be trans.

We're still talking past each other. Let me try to go through this in steps.

1) The link from oggsmash's original post was a high school girls volleyball game.

2) An unnamed person claimed that the player spiking the ball is transgender, though none of the people involved are quoted as confirming that.

3) The article also suggested this accident was inevitable because the spiking player has greater strength than any non-transgender girl player could have. Having such strength was portrayed as unreasonably dangerous for non-transgender girl players.

4) I questioned this conclusion. For comparison, I looked at the cases of both girls volleyball and coed volleyball.

5) In data going back 17 years, NCAA data found that concussion events in women's volleyball was second only to men's football in frequency.

6) I don't have concussion statistics for coed volleyball, but (a) it has been widely played in championships for decades, (b) standard coed tournament rules allow exactly the accident shown, where a male player spikes the ball and a female player is in the path. I linked to video showing exactly that.

No, you are being intellectually dishonest and NOW claiming that the player spiking the ball was not a male-to-female trans. At first, you were dismissing the injury to the female player based upon your argument that coed volleyball is the same as all women's or all men's volleyball - which gets thrown out the window when you claim that a biological male trans is the same as a woman.
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

The Spaniard

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Same with most sports....people who have no concept of physical culture, understanding of the DRASTIC difference between men and women regarding strength and power production in the moment of performance or who just never lift weights or play sports do not understand this and maybe never will.  Maybe they just ignore reality period. I do not know, I prefer to err on the side that people thinking there is no difference in chances of injuries when men play against women are just bookish nerds with zero experience with sports, full contact activities, or any real attempts at training their physical potential.

Volleyball is actually the sport I have the most personal experience with. I played volleyball recreationally in undergrad, and was in the summer volleyball league at Fermilab during grad school. That's not the same as top competitive play, but it's something I understand. The league I played in was mixed gender, and indeed, mixed gender volleyball is regularly played in the U.S. and elsewhere. I just watched some here to refresh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-XOz7mIFTQ

Men are generally larger and stronger than women, but there is still a long history of competitive mixed-gender sports - like mixed doubles tennis and mixed-team volleyball. These have been around for many decades.

In coed volleyball, there are rules for fairness and for safety - but it is still true that women are often hitting back a ball that has been hit by men. According your safety argument, coed volleyball should have an unacceptable level of injury such that it be banned, regardless of any transgender issues. I don't see any movement for such, though. I see lots of such tournaments being held with no controversy.

I can't find from quick search any concussion rates for coed compared to single-gender volleyball. I'm not claiming that I know the rate is the same. But I also don't think it will be off the charts as you claim.

But this wasn't co-ed volleyball, right?  It was a girl's volleyball game in which a boy was playing for the other team.

jhkim

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Jhkim is making perfect sense.  If boys playing against girls in volleyball don't regularly injure them, there's no reason for someone to expect that letting this boy play against girls was putting them in any danger.  It could well have been a complete fluke, the ball hit at just the worst possible spot, and not an inevitable thing.  It's volleyball, not boxing; getting smashed in the face by your opponent is not an expected outcome of playing.

Thanks, Valatar. I've been having trouble conveying this, but that is what I was trying to say.

That said, the team with the girls should have had the option to decline to play against a boy if they felt uncomfortable or at risk from it.  I have no objection to girls competing against boys, as long as they go in informed.  Girl wants to play baseball?  Sure.  Football?  Great.  If she can take the hits, more power to her.  Same for boys going into girls games, so long as everyone agrees beforehand.  But they should have the right to not agree.

Fair enough. It makes sense that if everyone is informed and agrees to play, that it's their business. Zelen suggested that girls' athletics should all be participation only with no championships. I don't think there needs to be only one approach - different places can run things differently.

jhkim

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No, you are being intellectually dishonest and NOW claiming that the player spiking the ball was not a male-to-female trans. At first, you were dismissing the injury to the female player based upon your argument that coed volleyball is the same as all women's or all men's volleyball - which gets thrown out the window when you claim that a biological male trans is the same as a woman.

I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

I'd also assert that in tournament coed games, male players can and do spike the ball at where female players are.

Transgender people who transition to female are generally larger and stronger than non-transgender girls/women, but they're not stronger or more dangerous than non-transgender boys/men.


But this wasn't co-ed volleyball, right?  It was a girl's volleyball game in which a boy was playing for the other team.

It was a girl's volleyball game, yes. I've tried to explain my point again above. I am sorry if it isn't coming through clearly.

jeff37923

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No, you are being intellectually dishonest and NOW claiming that the player spiking the ball was not a male-to-female trans. At first, you were dismissing the injury to the female player based upon your argument that coed volleyball is the same as all women's or all men's volleyball - which gets thrown out the window when you claim that a biological male trans is the same as a woman.

I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

I'd also assert that in tournament coed games, male players can and do spike the ball at where female players are.

Transgender people who transition to female are generally larger and stronger than non-transgender girls/women, but they're not stronger or more dangerous than non-transgender boys/men.



Article linked in OP which started the thread.

https://www.edfirstnc.org/post/female-hs-volleyball-player-seriously-injured-by-alleged-trans-competitor-in-north-carolina

jhkim's response =
I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

Transgender people who transition to female are generally larger and stronger than non-transgender girls/women, but they're not stronger or more dangerous than non-transgender boys/men.

Bolding mine, because it is intellectually dishonest to say that you don't know if a player was trans or not when the headline of the article quoted is "HS Volleyball Player injured by Transgender Competitor in North Carolina".

jhkim further demonstrates his ability to lie by stating, in the same post, that while male-to-female trans are generally larger and stronger, they are not more dangerous. This boggles the mind with the mental gymnastics displayed.
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."

jhkim

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I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

Bolding mine, because it is intellectually dishonest to say that you don't know if a player was trans or not when the headline of the article quoted is "HS Volleyball Player injured by Transgender Competitor in North Carolina".

So is your claim that everyone should believe any media headline they read? And that anyone who doesn't believe every headline they read is intellectually dishonest?

No, I don't immediately believe media headlines. In this case, I read the article and looked for their source. When I searched and read other articles about this, the officials involved specifically said they did not know if the student was transgender. Jeff Martin, who was quoted in the OP article, also said "I think it’s inappropriate for us to discuss that particular individual’s genetics or what have you in the context of where we are here. That brings it into a different realm of an issue."

I'm fine assuming that the student is transgender - I just don't have the standard that anything that appears in a media headline must be true.


jhkim further demonstrates his ability to lie by stating, in the same post, that while male-to-female trans are generally larger and stronger, they are not more dangerous. This boggles the mind with the mental gymnastics displayed.

I said that transgender athletes are not more dangerous than non-transgender male athletes. Again, if non-transgender male players spiking the ball at female players is accepted in games, then transgender players are not a greater danger.

jeff37923

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I don't know if the player spiking the ball is transgender or not. I'm not making any claims based on that.

If that player is transgender, though, my claim is that a transgender player spiking the ball is not more dangerous than a non-transgender male player spiking the ball.

Bolding mine, because it is intellectually dishonest to say that you don't know if a player was trans or not when the headline of the article quoted is "HS Volleyball Player injured by Transgender Competitor in North Carolina".

So is your claim that everyone should believe any media headline they read? And that anyone who doesn't believe every headline they read is intellectually dishonest?

No, I don't immediately believe media headlines. In this case, I read the article and looked for their source. When I searched and read other articles about this, the officials involved specifically said they did not know if the student was transgender. Jeff Martin, who was quoted in the OP article, also said "I think it’s inappropriate for us to discuss that particular individual’s genetics or what have you in the context of where we are here. That brings it into a different realm of an issue."

I'm fine assuming that the student is transgender - I just don't have the standard that anything that appears in a media headline must be true.


jhkim further demonstrates his ability to lie by stating, in the same post, that while male-to-female trans are generally larger and stronger, they are not more dangerous. This boggles the mind with the mental gymnastics displayed.

I said that transgender athletes are not more dangerous than non-transgender male athletes. Again, if non-transgender male players spiking the ball at female players is accepted in games, then transgender players are not a greater danger.

If you don't believe in the headline for the article that started this conversation, then why have you been basing you argument for a page and a half on it? It has only been in the last few posts, after your bullshit coed stance was destroyed, that you decided to try and say that the headline is false and the player causing the injury wasn't a trans.

C'mon groomer, lie some more!
"I do not want to create a story, I want to create a stage. The player characters will perform on that stage and interact with the setting. When the players talk to their friends about what their characters did, then there will be a story."