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Author Topic: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!  (Read 13425 times)

Pat

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #255 on: July 27, 2021, 05:58:52 PM »
The numbers are footnotes, which I can copy if desired.
Desired or not, here they are.

Quote from: Behave by Robert Sapolsky
7. An excellent review on the subject: J. Kubota et al. “The Neuroscience of Race,” Nat Nsci 15 (2012): 940; for a good review of the entire subject, see: D. Ariely, Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions (New York HarperCollins, 2008).

8. T. Ito and G. J. Urland, “Race and Gender on the Brain: Electrocortical Measures of Attention to the Race and Gender of Multiply Categorizable Individuals,” JPSP 85 (2003): 616. For a good review of how implicit attitudes are studied, see B. Nosek et al., “Implicit Social Cognition: From Measures to Mechanisms,” TICS 15 (2011): 152.

9. A. Olsson et al., “The Role of Social Groups in the Persistence of Learned Fear,” Sci 309 (2005): 785.

10. J. Richeson et al., “An fMRI Investigation of the Impact of Interracial Contact on Executive Function,” Nat Nsci 6 (2003): 1323; K. Knutson et al., “Why Do Interracial Interactions Impair Executive Function? A Resource Depletion Account,” TICS 10 (2007): 915; K. Knutson et al., “Neural Correlates of Automatic Beliefs About Gender and Race,” Human Brain Mapping 28 (2007): 915.

11. N. Kanwisher et al., “The Fusiform Face Area: A Module in Human Extrastriate Cortex Specialized for Face Perception,” J Nsci 17 (1997): 4302; J. Sergent et al., “Functional Neuroanatomy of Face and Object Processing: A Positron Emission Tomography Study,” Brain 115 (1992): 15; A. Golby et al., “Differential Responses in the Fusiform Region to Same-Race and Other-Race Faces,” Nat Nsci 4 (2001): 845; A. J. Hart et al., “Differential Response in the Human Amygdala to Racial Outgroup Versus Ingroup Face Stimuli,” Neuroreport 11 (2000): 2351.

12. K. Shutts and K. Kinzler, “An Ambiguous-Race Illusion in Children’s Face Memory,” Psych Sci 18 (2007): 763; D. Maner et al., “Functional Projection: How Fundamental Social Motives Can Bias Interpersonal Perception,” JPSP 88 (2005): 63; K. Hugenberg and G. Bodenhausen, “Facing Prejudice: Implicit Prejudice and the Perception of Facial Threat,” Psych Sci (2003): 640; J. Van Bavel et al., “The Neural Substrates of In-group Bias: A Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Investigation,” Psych Sci 19 (2008): 1131; J. Van Bavel and W. Cunningham, “Self-Categorization with a Novel Mixed-Race Group Moderates Automatic Social and Racial Biases,” PSPB 35 (2009): 321.

13. A. Avenanti et al., “Racial Bias Reduces Empathic Sensorimotor Resonance with Other-Race Pain,” Curr Biol 20 (2010): 1018; V. Mathur et al., “Neural Basis of Extraordinary Empathy and Altruistic Motivation,” Neuroimage 51 (2010): 1468–75.

14. J. Correll et al., “Event-Related Potentials and the Decision to Shoot: The Role of Threat Perception and Cognitive Control,” JESP 42 (2006): 120.

15. J. Eberhardt et al., “See Black: Race, Crime, and Visual Processing,” JPSP 87 (2004): 876; I. Blair et al., “The Influence of Afrocentric Facial Features in Criminal Sentencing,” Psych Sci 15 (2004): 674; M. Brown et al., “The Effects of Eyeglasses and Race on Juror Decisions Involving a Violent Crime,” AMFP 26 (2008): 25.

Zelen

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #256 on: July 27, 2021, 06:32:54 PM »
Implicit Association Tests are a booming field of study for pseudoscientists that want to conjure all kinds of malevolent intentions up from ... how fast someone clicked one picture or another.

In reality IAT is unreliable and basically can't be demonstrated to mean even a fraction of what people use it to mean. If I react more quickly to a black figure than a white figure, is that because of implicit bias, or is it because the human eye (almost definitionally) detects high contrast images more quickly than low contrast? Or the converse, that if I react more quickly to a white face than a black face, might that be due to contrast and readability of facial characteristics? There's basically a million and one ways to split these data sets down that aren't even explored, because the most important thing is always to push that racism agenda, get those big funding dollars, market that shoddy research as training for corporate clients.

In psychology, a measure is considered reliable if it has a test-retest reliability of at least 0.7, although it is preferred to be over 0.8. Studies have found that racial bias IAT studies have a test-retest reliability score of only 0.44, while the IAT overall is just around 0.5. The second major concern with IAT is its validity. Validity is best established by showing that results from the test can accurately predict behaviors in real life. However, from 2009 to 2015, four separate meta-analyses came out all suggesting that the IAT is a weak predictor of discriminating behavior (Goldhill, 2017).

Ratman_tf

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #257 on: July 27, 2021, 07:09:35 PM »
It's amazing probably predictable how fast the IAT caught on as some kind of HR tool.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/7/14637626/implicit-association-test-racism
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jhkim

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #258 on: July 27, 2021, 07:17:50 PM »
Implicit Association Tests are a booming field of study for pseudoscientists that want to conjure all kinds of malevolent intentions up from ... how fast someone clicked one picture or another.

In reality IAT is unreliable and basically can't be demonstrated to mean even a fraction of what people use it to mean. If I react more quickly to a black figure than a white figure, is that because of implicit bias, or is it because the human eye (almost definitionally) detects high contrast images more quickly than low contrast? Or the converse, that if I react more quickly to a white face than a black face, might that be due to contrast and readability of facial characteristics? There's basically a million and one ways to split these data sets down that aren't even explored, because the most important thing is always to push that racism agenda, get those big funding dollars, market that shoddy research as training for corporate clients.

In psychology, a measure is considered reliable if it has a test-retest reliability of at least 0.7, although it is preferred to be over 0.8. Studies have found that racial bias IAT studies have a test-retest reliability score of only 0.44, while the IAT overall is just around 0.5. The second major concern with IAT is its validity. Validity is best established by showing that results from the test can accurately predict behaviors in real life. However, from 2009 to 2015, four separate meta-analyses came out all suggesting that the IAT is a weak predictor of discriminating behavior (Goldhill, 2017).

From Pat's description of Sapolsky, he is similarly skeptical of IATs. However, his tests use neurological signals in addition to reaction time, which gives greater detail on the mental activity going on. From the Sapolsky quote:

Quote
subliminal signaling of race also affects the fusiform face area, the cortical region that specializes in facial recognition.11 Damaging the fusiform, for example, selectively produces “face blindness” (aka prosopagnosia), an inability to recognize faces. Work by John Gabrieli at MIT demonstrates less fusiform activation for other-race faces, with the effect strongest in the most implicitly racist subjects. This isn’t about novelty—show a face with purple skin and the fusiform responds as if it’s same-race. The fusiform isn’t fooled—“That’s not an Other; it’s just a ‘normal’ Photoshopped face.”

So they did investigate whether it was just contrast.

Zelen

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #259 on: July 27, 2021, 08:09:28 PM »
So they did investigate whether it was just contrast.

I'm well aware there are certain people who actually do study these types of things with a more critical eye. My criticism isn't targeted at Sapolsky but toward the broader field of academics and charlatans using IAT and not bothering trying to challenge their own assumptions. Heck, most of the time they aren't even qualified to parse their own data due to general statistics innumeracy among the "social science" crowd.

I wasn't able to find a funnel plot specifically for IAT publication bias, but I suspect that a plot for IAT power would look similar to this plot done for another commonly-abused topic, Stereotype Threat.

(Ref: https://russellwarne.com/2021/02/17/the-gremlins-that-strengthen-stereotype-threat/)

« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 08:26:09 PM by Zelen »

Pat

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #260 on: July 27, 2021, 08:11:02 PM »
From Pat's description of Sapolsky, he is similarly skeptical of IATs. However, his tests use neurological signals in addition to reaction time, which gives greater detail on the mental activity going on.
Not "his" tests. Sapolsky's book is a survey of contemporary understanding, not original research.

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #261 on: July 28, 2021, 02:13:52 AM »

Well, there was a large study of different ethnic groups a couple of years ago, I believe it was in the UK though I might be remembering wrong, which found that all races have a majority positive bias toward their own ethnicity, with one single exception: non-latino white people. White people are the only group that have a slight majority NEGATIVE view of their own in-group, that is to say, the only group that says "white people are bad".

I've tried a couple of searches and can't find that study. Do you (or anyone else) have a link? From my search, I see several other attempts to reproduce the Clark doll test recently, but they came to different conclusions. It's quite possible that especially with varying methods and populations that tests will have different results. Pat cites a bunch of more advanced studies that trace neurological function.

As I said, I believe it was at least a couple of years ago. And I read so much on a daily basis that I'd have no idea where to find it. But I remember that at the time it certainly made the rounds of some of the cultural libertarian commentators (I'm sure I remember Sargon talking about it, for example), so maybe someone with more time or better memory than me might be able to find it.
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jhkim

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #262 on: July 28, 2021, 04:42:37 PM »
As a general position statement here, the basic issue is that the Conscious Kid captured video contained statements like "children as young as two are already using race to reason about people's behaviors". Johnson and Project Veritas claim that this is ridiculous, and that it is wokist and racist lies.

I haven't read the research to say whether or not it is true. I knew about the Clark doll test which was on children from 3 to 6, so it seemed at least possible to me that children at age two could use race to reason about behaviors. I haven't read material on earlier ages like the Sapolsky book Pat is referencing, but that apparently agrees with the training on this point.

I'm not endorsing either the training or Johnson in general. But I think on this point, the training seems right and Johnson is wrong. Johnson and Project Veritas seem to be pushing that young kids naturally don't see race, so parents don't need to do anything and their kids will naturally grow up with no racism. I think that isn't true. I think a stronger point could be made arguing about *how* to teach children about race, rather than *whether* to teach children about race.

From Pat's description of Sapolsky, he is similarly skeptical of IATs. However, his tests use neurological signals in addition to reaction time, which gives greater detail on the mental activity going on.
Not "his" tests. Sapolsky's book is a survey of contemporary understanding, not original research.

Sorry, Pat. You had said that, and I knew it at one point but slipped up.


So they did investigate whether it was just contrast.

I'm well aware there are certain people who actually do study these types of things with a more critical eye. My criticism isn't targeted at Sapolsky but toward the broader field of academics and charlatans using IAT and not bothering trying to challenge their own assumptions. Heck, most of the time they aren't even qualified to parse their own data due to general statistics innumeracy among the "social science" crowd.

I wasn't able to find a funnel plot specifically for IAT publication bias, but I suspect that a plot for IAT power would look similar to this plot done for another commonly-abused topic, Stereotype Threat.
(Ref: https://russellwarne.com/2021/02/17/the-gremlins-that-strengthen-stereotype-threat/)

I generally agree here. I've had a fairly in-depth look into this, since I first got a PhD in physics - and later got a Master's in Education. Statistics handling in education was awful compared to physics, which isn't at all surprising. The sort of people who are talented in education tend to have worse math skills than physicists. Two things I would add:

(1) From my reading, statistical handling in education used to be even worse. There was a push in the 1990s to firm up data handling with pre and post tests. In earlier times, education was even more driven by unproven trends, like the often-mocked "New Math" of the 1960s.

(2) Publication bias happens in nearly all scientific fields to at least some degree. It's not a function of innumeracy per se, but comes from a higher-level pressure against publishing negative results because they don't seem significant. I saw it regularly in nuclear and heavy ion results, for example, and less so in high-energy physics (though it still happened). I had a roommate whose physics PhD I considered nearly complete crap because of statistical handling.

The point being - I take psychology and social sciences especially with a big grain of salt -- but I am even more skeptical about random people making assertions about those fields.

jhkim

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #263 on: July 28, 2021, 04:47:43 PM »
As a general rule Humans generally have demonstrated a preference for lighter skin (particularly in women), and this effect is true regardless of whether it's an African in European/American society or an African in African society or a European in European society, etc. It's misleading at best, outright lying and propaganda to suggest that preference for a lighter skinned doll represents some kind of programming toward self-hatred.

I've heard this expressed as an idea before, but I'm skeptical. What is the extent of the evidence for this? Another idea I've heard expressed is that women tend to prefer men to be dark, while men prefer women to be light. The implication is that this is a genetically-programmed universal, but that is quite difficult to prove.

oggsmash

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #264 on: July 28, 2021, 04:58:55 PM »
The Clark doll test was a real thing, and of course demonstrated that the dominant culture at the time had created an unconscious bias in black children to have negative feelings about their own in-group.

Thanks, RPGPundit. It's interesting to hear that from you. I agree that the Clark doll test was a real thing, and I think people at the time were right to be shocked by it. I think some skepticism is reasonable as about any social science, and I'm hesitant to come to any hard conclusions about the source of the behavior, but it's clear that young black children had negative reactions to dolls that looked like them - which is clearly a bad state of affairs.

A lot of other posters here dismiss it, though, and even pushback against the original civil rights movement, like oggsmash in this post -

   Regarding original civil rights movement, shitloads of commies all over that movement, who were in it for anything but civil rights, but it made a great cloak to wear to see your will done.

To oggsmash - I think the Clarks who created the doll test and people who promoted its conclusions like Thurgood Marshall were indeed in it for civil rights, as were most supporters of the movement.

---

The big question is how much things have changed over the past 70-odd years.

Well, there was a large study of different ethnic groups a couple of years ago, I believe it was in the UK though I might be remembering wrong, which found that all races have a majority positive bias toward their own ethnicity, with one single exception: non-latino white people. White people are the only group that have a slight majority NEGATIVE view of their own in-group, that is to say, the only group that says "white people are bad".

I've tried a couple of searches and can't find that study. Do you (or anyone else) have a link? From my search, I see several other attempts to reproduce the Clark doll test recently, but they came to different conclusions. It's quite possible that especially with varying methods and populations that tests will have different results. Pat cites a bunch of more advanced studies that trace neurological function.

   Think what ever you want.  but here we are with corporate training telling white dudes they suck and telling everyone else babies are racist.  If you think that sort of shit will have a happy ending you are in for a nasty balkanized surprise.  It does not matter how many people were in the civil rights movement for the good of it, it still got infiltrated and is now weaponized by nasty shits, who quite honestly I would strangle if I were around them. 

   You also are putting words in my mouth.  I am not pushing back against the original civil rights movement, I said it was full of commies who had ulterior motives and it was.

  I will also say, I do not rule out the kids in the 60's were biased against their own because they were small minorities in society.  I do not think that is going to get fixed today by "getting them back" as many proponents of the sort of training the guy was complaining about.  They may even have had the bias because of overwhelming racism, again it was 60 years ago.  Someone who comes to me, who is white and came up a bit rough as they say, to feel even a touch of remorse for things I had no hand in and zero benefit from....get fucked.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 05:07:47 PM by oggsmash »

Pat

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #265 on: July 28, 2021, 06:58:16 PM »
As a general position statement here, the basic issue is that the Conscious Kid captured video contained statements like "children as young as two are already using race to reason about people's behaviors". Johnson and Project Veritas claim that this is ridiculous, and that it is wokist and racist lies.

I haven't read the research to say whether or not it is true. I knew about the Clark doll test which was on children from 3 to 6, so it seemed at least possible to me that children at age two could use race to reason about behaviors. I haven't read material on earlier ages like the Sapolsky book Pat is referencing, but that apparently agrees with the training on this point.

I'm not endorsing either the training or Johnson in general. But I think on this point, the training seems right and Johnson is wrong. Johnson and Project Veritas seem to be pushing that young kids naturally don't see race, so parents don't need to do anything and their kids will naturally grow up with no racism. I think that isn't true. I think a stronger point could be made arguing about *how* to teach children about race, rather than *whether* to teach children about race.
I think you have a backwards. Johnson and Project Veritas are fundamentally in the right, and the Conscious Kid trainers are fundamentally in the wrong.

But -- and this is a very important but -- I don't think Johnson and PV effectively made their case. That's my essential problem with the video. In the first half of the video, they're ridiculing even the concept that toddlers could display bias. They're wrong about that, because the studies are clear that children of very young ages do show bias. There's a more complex question about whether that bias can be considered racism, but they don't really address that, they're too busy just dismissing the concept. So they're technically wrong, but more importantly they're missing the real target.

The real target is the stuff that appears in the second half of the video. We can see slides and brief snippets of lectures, which seem to be loaded with quasi-familiar jargon and strong conclusions. It's hard to be specific because PV/Johnson don't focus on them enough or provide a good analysis, but those snippets seem to be drawing unwarranted conclusions (like taking the fact that babies show bias to conclude, without all the interim justifications needed to support such a conclusion, that babies are racist and this needs to be addressed by doing X, Y, and Z). So they're technically right on some very specific supporting details, but the entire edifice they build on those details is false.

A good whistleblower video would have acknowledged the trainers were correct about certain specifics, but pointed out exactly how those details are being twisted to support a narrative.

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #266 on: August 02, 2021, 09:55:20 PM »
Again, sociologists tend to rig experiments to deliver the results they want. Usually "whitey is racist and evil."

Now here's an interesting twist to the doll experiment: how about instead of just human dolls of different races they also include non-human dolls? For example, a vixen princess, an anthro-dragonish warrior, a Pokemon-style whatever, etc. If the kids gravitate towards those then what would they say?
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GriswaldTerrastone

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #267 on: August 02, 2021, 10:09:22 PM »
Speaking of which, in reply to the prom picture earlier (and I wish I could forget) notice how this one seems more "real" in its way:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/52/b7/da52b7526aeccc2072816029eebc40dd.jpg





They don't look as though they had a whiff of the Joker's laugh gas.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 10:10:59 PM by GriswaldTerrastone »
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #268 on: August 02, 2021, 10:25:46 PM »
Speaking of which, in reply to the prom picture earlier (and I wish I could forget) notice how this one seems more "real" in its way:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/52/b7/da52b7526aeccc2072816029eebc40dd.jpg





They don't look as though they had a whiff of the Joker's laugh gas.

Is the green furry the same species as the other one? If so why would anyone give hair to a dragon? I could understand feathers but hair?
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Shasarak

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Re: Hasbro CRT Whistleblower and WoTC Wokism Exposed!
« Reply #269 on: August 02, 2021, 10:30:07 PM »
Not very realistic - needs bigger breasts.
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