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Author Topic: Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]  (Read 26490 times)

Doctor Jest

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #375 on: April 03, 2015, 01:04:48 PM »
Given that the State of Indiana has already buckled like a belt and quickly passed an amendment to the law prohibiting any kind of discrimination including specifically sexual orientation all while backpedaling in a manner that would impress unicycle performers in the circus and that GenCon applauded the move and seems mollified, this is all a rather moot point now.

But the larger point that corporations do engage in political activism, as the supreme court ruled they could; if you think this sort of thing isn't going on all the time, you're incredibly naive. Corporations influence politics to a huge extent, through donations, PACs, Lobbies, and activism. All the time. Whether or not they should is a valid discussion, but the reality is they all do, and GenCon is not unique in this by any measure.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 01:10:24 PM by Doctor Jest »

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #376 on: April 03, 2015, 01:20:31 PM »
Quote from: GeekEclectic;823774
That seems to be the big worry, yeah. Except that's not actually what the RFRA does. Now I'm not saying that nobody would ever think to try to use it that way -- there are always going to be idiots and assholes, after all -- but in such cases they'd have to show that their sincerely held religious beliefs were being significantly burdened. I doubt that many of them could even pass that test, much less move on to step 2 where prevailing government interest and the weight thereof come into the picture.


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Doctor Jest

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #377 on: April 03, 2015, 01:21:30 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;823677

Discrimination, of any kind, is bad PR among young educated employees, so coming out against Indiana is meaningful in the competition for talent.


Bingo. Competition for talent is it. I work for one of the largest financial services firms in the world (who, as per our corporate social media policy, I cannot name) and they go out of their way for inclusion. We have a corporate culture which has a huge focus on diversity. We have chapters of PRIDE in every location, for example. We've had transgendered guest speakers come and talk about inclusion. Corporate policy is employees should be allowed to be themselves without fear of harassment or discrimination or feeling they have to hide.

Why does it go to all this trouble? Because it doesn't ultimately care about things like race or sexual orientation or gender, it only cares about talent. But to attract talent from the largest pool it needs to show that it's ok with people who are not the "norm". It's not that the corporation cares so much about gay rights, it's that by supporting gay rights it can get better employees, because if your bottom line is profits, then why would you care who your employees screw? As long as they do a good job. Right?

The company gets involved in charitable activities quite frequently as well, and even will front money for employees to get involved in a charitable event. This is again optics, but this time it's to build a relationship with the communities it serves. It's creating goodwill which means loyal customers. And again, it launches diversity ad campaigns to show it welcomes all people. Why? Because then you have a larger customer base. If you're a business and you only care about profits, then a gay person's money spends just as well as anyone else's, right? Appealing to a wider variety of people is getting more customers which is making more money. It's not hard to understand.

crkrueger

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #378 on: April 03, 2015, 04:27:51 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;823776
Maybe. I don't dismiss that possibility, but I also do not have to spend my money in support of a mission that the company was not incorporated for.


You sure don't.  If you think GenCon is going awfulpurple, by all means boycott the stupidity.

The thought process probably was...
1. This law will be viewed as anti-LGBT.
2. Gamers who are over inclusive people with low self-esteem and possessing of several geek fallacies are a decent chunk of our customer base.
3. The Social Nazis are the most vociferously loud chunk of our customer base, and many of them are designers.
4. The last thing we want is to start some tempest in a toilet about our silence or inaction or supporting of the law.
5. We make a cowardly threat with no chance of following through because we're bound to Indy until 2020, get on the easy side of the argument early and head all this off at the pass so people will still come to GenCon.
6. To reassure anyone fearing Indiana Internment Camps, we say "Tell us if the Hot Dog vendor won't sell you a hot dog because he's afraid of where you'll put it!"
7. Everyone forgets about it and we go back to deciding how to squeeze every last dime out of these bitches.

Corporate Bullshit 101

So if you actually think they are drinking the purple KoolAid, then you get some like-minded individuals to sign a petition to GenCon telling them to stay the hell out of politics in the future or you'll stay the hell out of GenCon.  Get enough signatures and make it public, you'll find out what they're really about by the response.

Hell, go on youtube and get yourself twitter-threatened, then set up a Fund-Me campaign and make half a million dollars like Memories Pizza did. :D
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Bren

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #379 on: April 03, 2015, 04:50:50 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;823771
It is their money to spend.
Well sure it is. And Gen Con would like as many people as possible to spend their money at Gen Con. The simplest and most probable explanation for Gen Con LLC's actions is that they think opposing the recent Indiana bill will result in more people attending Gen Con now and in the future compared to how many people would attend now and in the future if Gen Con did not oppose the bill.

Quote
Lets go back to Spinichcat's post that there might be a 1% proportion of douchenozzles in a Gen Con crowd of 56,000 equaling only 560 douchnozzles. Why should I spend hundreds of dollars to put up with any of them? Why can I not ask for a reasonable assurance that I will not bothered by a SJW activist while I spend my hundreds of dollars at a gaming convention?
You can ask Gen Con. I don't really see how Gen Con could reasonably assure you that no one at the con bothers you as you seem pretty easily bothered on this one issue and I'd expect someone there might mention the issue within your hearing. But if you can get Gen Con to give you an assurance of that, go for it. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Probably they won't.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;823774
That seems to be the big worry, yeah. Except that's not actually what the RFRA does. Now I'm not saying that nobody would ever think to try to use it that way -- there are always going to be idiots and assholes, after all -- but in such cases they'd have to show that their sincerely held religious beliefs were being significantly burdened. I doubt that many of them could even pass that test, much less move on to step 2 where prevailing government interest and the weight thereof come into the picture.
That's not quite right. Indiana law does not require an actual burden or any proof that the belief is a part of any particular religion. "Provides that a person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a state or local government action may assert the burden as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding, regardless of  whether the state or a political subdivision of the state is a party to the judicial proceeding. And "sincerely held religious belief" seems like a fancy way of saying "a religious belief." The belief need not be "compulsory or central to a larger system of religious belief."

Quote from: Doctor Jest;823790
It's not hard to understand.
And yet much of this thread.

Quote from: CRKrueger;823816
You sure don't.  If you think GenCon is going awfulpurple, by all means boycott the stupidity.

The thought process probably was...
1. This law will be viewed as anti-LGBT.
2. Gamers who are over inclusive people with low self-esteem and possessing of several geek fallacies are a decent chunk of our customer base.
3. The Social Nazis are the most vociferously loud chunk of our customer base, and many of them are designers.
4. The last thing we want is to start some tempest in a toilet about our silence or inaction or supporting of the law.
5. We make a cowardly threat with no chance of following through because we're bound to Indy until 2020, get on the easy side of the argument early and head all this off at the pass so people will still come to GenCon.
6. To reassure anyone fearing Indiana Internment Camps, we say "Tell us if the Hot Dog vendor won't sell you a hot dog because he's afraid of where you'll put it!"
7. Everyone forgets about it and we go back to deciding how to squeeze every last dime out of these bitches.

Corporate Bullshit 101

So if you actually think they are drinking the purple KoolAid, then you get some like-minded individuals to sign a petition to GenCon telling them to stay the hell out of politics in the future or you'll stay the hell out of GenCon.  Get enough signatures and make it public, you'll find out what they're really about by the response.

Hell, go on youtube and get yourself twitter-threatened, then set up a Fund-Me campaign and make half a million dollars like Memories Pizza did. :D

While I am open to the possibility that Gen Con's management might also oppose the law for philosophical reasons. CRKrueger cynical explanation covered the reasons why Gen Con LLC was incentivized to act exactly as they have acted. Given that their behavior is reasonable and logical from a business perspective, I don't see any reason to look for sinister SJW conspiracies to explain what has occurred.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 05:01:38 PM by Bren »
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jeff37923

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #380 on: April 03, 2015, 05:35:11 PM »
Quote from: Bren;823819
Well sure it is. And Gen Con would like as many people as possible to spend their money at Gen Con. The simplest and most probable explanation for Gen Con LLC's actions is that they think opposing the recent Indiana bill will result in more people attending Gen Con now and in the future compared to how many people would attend now and in the future if Gen Con did not oppose the bill.


That sounds pretty naïve.

Quote from: Bren;823819
You can ask Gen Con. I don't really see how Gen Con could reasonably assure you that no one at the con bothers you as you seem pretty easily bothered on this one issue and I'd expect someone there might mention the issue within your hearing. But if you can get Gen Con to give you an assurance of that, go for it. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Probably they won't.


Why ask? You just stated above that Gen Con wants people to spend money there, so it would be in their best interest to lie and say anything that brings in more money. I will just have to trust my own judgment and not go.

"Easily bothered?" C'mon, you can do better than that.

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #381 on: April 03, 2015, 07:50:35 PM »
Quote from: Doctor Jest;823785
Given that the State of Indiana has already buckled like a belt and quickly passed an amendment to the law prohibiting any kind of discrimination including specifically sexual orientation all while backpedaling in a manner that would impress unicycle performers in the circus and that GenCon applauded the move and seems mollified, this is all a rather moot point now.

But the larger point that corporations do engage in political activism, as the supreme court ruled they could; if you think this sort of thing isn't going on all the time, you're incredibly naive. Corporations influence politics to a huge extent, through donations, PACs, Lobbies, and activism. All the time. Whether or not they should is a valid discussion, but the reality is they all do, and GenCon is not unique in this by any measure.

I frankly find this form of activism far more honest than the other types.
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James Gillen

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #382 on: April 03, 2015, 08:18:48 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;823707
Yes!

For those who aren't getting the reference, Here and here are news stories about a pizza place whose owner said they would not cater a same sex wedding and then immediately were attacked, threatened with arson, and had to close the store due to the danger to their employees and customers. Because of their financial losses, they have a GoFundMe site set up.


And these are the same people who hate GamerGate.

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Bren

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #383 on: April 04, 2015, 12:10:36 AM »
Quote from: jeff37923;823825
That sounds pretty naïve."
Naïve to think that SJWs haven't taken over Gen Con. It's not like Gen Con came anywhere near acting alone. Are all the other companies and organizations pawns in some vast SJW conspiracy? Just how big is this conspiracy that I am too naïve to credit?

Well it includes:
  • Accenture
  • AFSCME Women's Conference - moving October conference to a different state
  • Angie's List - withdrew proposal to expand Indianapolis campus
  • Disciples of Christ
  • Eli Lilly
  • Gen Con
  • Indiana University
  • Levi Strauss & Co.
  • Nascar
  • NBA, Indiana Pacers, Indiana Fever (WNBA)
  • NCAA (hosting Final Four in Indianapolis this weekend)
  • Salesforce - canceling programs that require customers or employees to travel to Indiana
  • Square
  • Twitter
  • Yelp

Then there are these Athletes, celebrities, politicians, and CEOs
  • Apple CEO Tim Cook, Ashton Kutcher, Audra McDonald, California Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom (D), Charles Barkley, Cher, Ellen DeGeneres, George Takei, Hillary Clinton, Jason Collins, James Van Der Beek, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Keith Olbermann, Larry King, MC Hammer, Miley Cyrus, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio, Reggie Miller, Stephen King
  • Nick Offerman - cancelled upcoming Indiana tour dates, will donate proceeds from Wednesday Indiana University show to HRC
  • UConn men's basketball coach Kevin Ollie - said he would not attend the Final Four in Indianapolis
  • USC Athletic Director Pat Haden - said he would not attend the College Football Playoff committee meeting in Indianapolis this week
  • Wilco - cancelled Indianapolis show
  • 40 tech industry leaders (who signed a join letter. Signers include founders, CEOs, or chairs from Affirm, Zynga, Yelp, SalesForce, Square, Twitter, Lyft, AirBNB, Azon JuriMed Group LLC, Ebay, YCombinator, Zillow Group, Mixbit, Homejoy, Evernote, IfOnly, NextDoor, NextLesson, Quip, Formation 8, Elance-odesk, Path, BackOps, North Technologies, jawbone, Cisco Systems, about.me, Sidecar, Sequoia Capital, PayBal, Glassdoor, Emerson Collective, Alphalight, Penny Mac, and Sherpa Ventures)

And of course some Governments
  • Connecticut - Gov. Dan Malloy (D) signed an executive order prohibiting state-funded travel to Indiana
  • The District of Columbia - Mayor Muriel Bowser signed an executive order prohibiting authorization of official travel to Indiana
  • Indianapolis - Mayor Greg Ballard tweeted #IndyWelcomesAll, and the city-county council plans to introduce a resolution denouncing the law and asking the legislature to add protections for sexual orientation, according to the Indianapolis Star
  • New York - Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) asked state agencies, departments, boards, and commissions to bar publicly funded travel to Indiana that wasn't essential
  • Oakland - Mayor Libby Schaaf said Tuesday the city would city-funded travel there as long as the law was in effect.
  • Portland - Mayor Charlie Hales said he would ban city-funded travel to Indiana
  • Rochester - Mayor Lovely Warrn issued a travel ban for city-funded travel Tuesday
  • San Francisco - Mayor Ed Lee directed city departments to bar city-funded travel to Indiana unless "essential to public health and safety"
  • Seattle - Mayor Ed Murray prohibited city-funded travel to Indiana
  • Washington - Gov. Jay Inslee (D) banned members of his administration from state-funded travel to Indiana

Quote
Easily bothered?" C'mon, you can do better than that.
Dude, you are planning to boycott Gen Con solely because they behaved just like a dozen or more other companies who saw the Indiana law as bad for business and you think that is evidence of some takeover or placation of SJWs. Yeah you seem either easily bothered or just a bit kooky on this subject.
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jeff37923

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #384 on: April 04, 2015, 12:25:48 AM »
Quote from: Bren;823876
Naïve to think that SJWs haven't taken over Gen Con. It's not like Gen Con came anywhere near acting alone. Are all the other companies and organizations pawns in some vast SJW conspiracy? Just how big is this conspiracy that I am too naïve to credit?

Well it includes:
  • Accenture
  • AFSCME Women's Conference - moving October conference to a different state
  • Angie's List - withdrew proposal to expand Indianapolis campus
  • Disciples of Christ
  • Eli Lilly
  • Gen Con
  • Indiana University
  • Levi Strauss & Co.
  • Nascar
  • NBA, Indiana Pacers, Indiana Fever (WNBA)
  • NCAA (hosting Final Four in Indianapolis this weekend)
  • Salesforce - canceling programs that require customers or employees to travel to Indiana
  • Square
  • Twitter
  • Yelp

Then there are these Athletes, celebrities, politicians, and CEOs
  • Apple CEO Tim Cook, Ashton Kutcher, Audra McDonald, California Lt. Gov. Gavin Newsom (D), Charles Barkley, Cher, Ellen DeGeneres, George Takei, Hillary Clinton, Jason Collins, James Van Der Beek, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Keith Olbermann, Larry King, MC Hammer, Miley Cyrus, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio, Reggie Miller, Stephen King
  • Nick Offerman - cancelled upcoming Indiana tour dates, will donate proceeds from Wednesday Indiana University show to HRC
  • UConn men's basketball coach Kevin Ollie - said he would not attend the Final Four in Indianapolis
  • USC Athletic Director Pat Haden - said he would not attend the College Football Playoff committee meeting in Indianapolis this week
  • Wilco - cancelled Indianapolis show
  • 40 tech industry leaders (who signed a join letter. Signers include founders, CEOs, or chairs from Affirm, Zynga, Yelp, SalesForce, Square, Twitter, Lyft, AirBNB, Azon JuriMed Group LLC, Ebay, YCombinator, Zillow Group, Mixbit, Homejoy, Evernote, IfOnly, NextDoor, NextLesson, Quip, Formation 8, Elance-odesk, Path, BackOps, North Technologies, jawbone, Cisco Systems, about.me, Sidecar, Sequoia Capital, PayBal, Glassdoor, Emerson Collective, Alphalight, Penny Mac, and Sherpa Ventures)

And of course some Governments
  • Connecticut - Gov. Dan Malloy (D) signed an executive order prohibiting state-funded travel to Indiana
  • The District of Columbia - Mayor Muriel Bowser signed an executive order prohibiting authorization of official travel to Indiana
  • Indianapolis - Mayor Greg Ballard tweeted #IndyWelcomesAll, and the city-county council plans to introduce a resolution denouncing the law and asking the legislature to add protections for sexual orientation, according to the Indianapolis Star
  • New York - Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) asked state agencies, departments, boards, and commissions to bar publicly funded travel to Indiana that wasn't essential
  • Oakland - Mayor Libby Schaaf said Tuesday the city would city-funded travel there as long as the law was in effect.
  • Portland - Mayor Charlie Hales said he would ban city-funded travel to Indiana
  • Rochester - Mayor Lovely Warrn issued a travel ban for city-funded travel Tuesday
  • San Francisco - Mayor Ed Lee directed city departments to bar city-funded travel to Indiana unless "essential to public health and safety"
  • Seattle - Mayor Ed Murray prohibited city-funded travel to Indiana
  • Washington - Gov. Jay Inslee (D) banned members of his administration from state-funded travel to Indiana



I don't care. A lot of people jumped on to the D&D 4E bandwagon and I didn't. Just because I support the goal of marriage equality does not mean I approve of the methodology employed.

I don't give a shit about the opinions of anyone or any group on your list. I live my own life.


Quote from: Bren;823876


Dude, you are planning to boycott Gen Con solely because they behaved just like a dozen or more other companies who saw the Indiana law as bad for business and you think that is evidence of some takeover or placation of SJWs. Yeah you seem either easily bothered or just a bit kooky on this subject.


See, here you go trying to twist my position again. Why does it bother you so much that I don't feel like spending money at a venue that puts political activism before providing a service I would be paying for? Is this some holy crusade for you? Do you not think I should have the freedom to spend money where I choose and attend conventions that I choose? Must I go to Gen Con or else I am not supporting Tabletop Role-Playing Games? Are you bucking to be the next Will or maybe Sacrosanct Junior?

See, the SJW activists that Gen Con is so welcoming to, are like this dipshit. Why would I want to pay money and potentially subject myself to that kind of abuse? See, all it takes is one dipshit.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 12:45:59 AM by jeff37923 »

Warboss Squee

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #385 on: April 04, 2015, 02:26:28 AM »
Quote from: James Gillen;823847
And these are the same people who hate GamerGate.

JG


Because GamerGate is worse than ISIS, didn't you know that?

crkrueger

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #386 on: April 04, 2015, 02:32:45 AM »
As terribly written as the Indiana Law was (namely that a "person" was a everything from an actual person to an LLC, Corporation, Housing Association or just about any non-person, and that "burdened" turned into "likely to be burdened at some point in the future"), I'm sorry to see in all the reaction that the "Gaystapo" - a word I didn't hear about until two days ago, is actually a thing.
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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #387 on: April 04, 2015, 02:47:48 AM »
MC Hammer is still around?
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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #388 on: April 04, 2015, 03:06:52 AM »
Quote from: jeff37923;823879

See, here you go trying to twist my position again. Why does it bother you so much that I don't feel like spending money at a venue that puts political activism before providing a service I would be paying for?


I don't really understand this position. Gencon is a open gaming convention patronized by gamers of all stripes and orientations. That they would chose to relocate (well, make an implied threat anyways, they didnt follow through) to protect one portion of its patrons places political activism over gaming how? Gencon would be Gencon no matter where it was held. I'm not sure how this would affect them offering the services your interested in in the slightest. It seems to me to have literally no effect whatsoever on how the con itself is run.

Of course, you're perfectly entitled to not go, I could care less. I've never gone and 99% of the people I've gamed with in my life have never attended a gaming con of any kind. But you're posting your position online, so opening it up to criticism. Thats perfectly fair. Especially when you say things that make no sense.

Quote
See, the SJW activists that Gen Con is so welcoming to, are like this dipshit. Why would I want to pay money and potentially subject myself to that kind of abuse? See, all it takes is one dipshit.


Oh, c'mon. You know thats a strawman argument in the extreme. First, Gencon being welcoming to LGBT gamers doesn't equal them being specifically welcoming to SJWs. Second, is there any reason whatsoever to believe that some random extreme example of a person being a total douche online is atypical of any of Gencon's patrons, let a lone a majority? There's no love lost for me when it comes to SJWs, but the main reason I dislike them is because they engage in unfounded generalizations that equate an entire group of people with a handful of minority examples. Thats exactly the same thing you're doing here.
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jeff37923

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #389 on: April 04, 2015, 04:10:14 AM »
Quote from: TristramEvans;823891
I don't really understand this position.


Let me spell it out for you, and everyone else.

I support gay marriage. I do not support the methodology of gay couples who wish to be married, filing business ending lawsuits against people who do not agree with the idea of gay marriage based upon their religious beliefs. I think that is overkill and breeds more resentment than acceptance. Just don't support those businesses that do not support gay marriage, the denial of a significant new market for their goods and services will end those businesses soon enough.

Now, to protect the religious freedom to say "no" to a customer without fear of being sued to death, Indiana passed SB 101. This caused Gen Con LLC to put forth an empty threat to leave the state of Indiana. At that point, the corporate owners of Gen Con placed political activism to remove SB 101 before their reason for incorporation - putting on a gaming convention with a very good reputation. A decision I disagree with and do not support. However, one which is supported by SJW activists wholeheartedly, and becomes especially worrisome with the declaration that Gen Con LLC wants to hear about any acts of bigotry against Gen Con attendees (which some will take as an invitation to try and deliberately provoke a reaction).

Now as examples of that SJW activist behavior from the past we have Monte Cook, Zak S, The Pundit, and James Desborogh (GRIMM) being attacked and slandered. We  have had people claim that D&D is racist because orcs are a dogwhistle for black people. We have had people claim that Gary Gygax was a misogynist because of the Random Harlot Table. We have had people claim that D&D 5E was anti-feminist because there were not enough female monsters depicted in the Monster Manual.

Lately, in Indiana, we have seen Memories Pizza be decried as homophobic because the owner would not cater a hypothetical gay wedding. A high school coach threatened the business with arson. A group of protestors have taken up at the business and caused them to close down for fear of endangering the employees and staff. The GoFundMe site set up by their lawyer to help cope with the business losses has been declared fraudulent without any evidence by a "concerned reporter" because she disagreed with their stance.

There is plenty of evidence available that these SJW activists are willing to go out of their way to be shitty to those they disagree with.

Now with all that in mind, I do not wish to spend hundreds of dollars at Gen Con to attend the convention. The impression I have is that it will be a hostile social environment because of all this, and I do not want to put up with that when I want to game and especially not when I pay to game.