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Author Topic: Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]  (Read 43417 times)

Endless Flight

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #270 on: March 31, 2015, 02:44:33 PM »
Looks like an anti-gay establishment will get no harassment from the government.

Bren

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #271 on: March 31, 2015, 02:44:56 PM »
Quote from: TristramEvans;823081
What the hell?



Does anyone more experienced in legalese want to unpack that one for me? Because it sounds really bad from a layman's perspective.
Just search Virginia House Bill 1414. There are a number of links that will explain it. The author of the bill appears to have a history of anti-gay activity.

Northeastern Virginia has been gaining political strength and is much more democratic leaning than the rest of the state. I would not be surprised if this never makes it to a full vote and I'd be kind of shocked if it becomes law.
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jhkim

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #272 on: March 31, 2015, 03:01:43 PM »
Quote from: gattsuru;823054
No.  Most of Indiana has no law against refusing to sell to a potential customer for any reason or no reason at all.  A couple counties have put forward a law prohibiting public accommodations with more than six employees from refusing to serve customers on certain listed basis, although this is not common and caselaw doesn't seem to include provisioning of services within this law.

There is federal law on this - specifically the Civil Rights Act of 1964
that prohibits discrimination on the basis of "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin". So a business that is considered a "public accommodation" such as a restaurant or bakery cannot refuse service on the basis of someone's race, for example.

This federal law does not include sexual orientation, so unless there is a state law (like there is in Colorado), the shop owner can refuse service on the basis of being gay.

However, discrimination for being gay is being challenged in a lot of places. After the success of the Hobby Lobby ruling for the power of the RFRA, a state RFRA can be seen as a pre-emptive effort to ensure that religiously-motivated behavior is allowed despite other laws to the contrary.

Doctor Jest

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #273 on: March 31, 2015, 03:54:19 PM »
Quote from: TristramEvans;823081

Does anyone more experienced in legalese want to unpack that one for me? Because it sounds really bad from a layman's perspective.


If a government worker dislikes the cut of your jib, they can deny you a driver's license.

Or voter registration
Or marriage license
Or State benefits
Or a building permit
Or business license

LordVreeg

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #274 on: March 31, 2015, 03:58:40 PM »
Quote from: Doctor Jest;823094
If a government worker dislikes the cut of your jib, they can deny you a driver's license.

Or voter registration
Or marriage license
Or State benefits
Or a building permit
Or business license


No, that is NOT what it says.

Quite the opposite.  It states that the Commonwealth of Virginia can't deny you license based on your behavior towards the LGBT community.
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gattsuru

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #275 on: March 31, 2015, 04:13:19 PM »
Quote from: Turanil;823062
Well, so what about GenCon and its threat to moving to somewhere else? :confused: And what about all these claims about this law opening the door to horrendous anti-gay discrimination? :confused:
There are a few places in the state that have public accommodation laws that this law could theoretically allow people to discriminate, and it's possible that it'll have an impact on employment law for highly religiously motivated organizations.  It's not likely, but it could happen.  It's just not happened in any other areas where very similar laws have occurred, and would be very costly and difficult to do even if someone's dumb enough to try, and it's far from the only or even most common impact of this sort of law.

I'm not sure whether the reporting reflects people unaware of the current state of the law, how many are speaking from a normative rather than descriptive focus, and who's intentionally overstating the impact.
Quote from: jhkim;823087
There is federal law on this - specifically the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that prohibits discrimination on the basis of "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin". So a business that is considered a "public accommodation" such as a restaurant or bakery cannot refuse service on the basis of someone's race, for example.
I've said this before in this thread, but for the purposes of the CRA-1964, "public accommodation" only includes a fairly small number of services.  Restaurants are covered, bakeries are not.  

Underneath that, the federal CRA can not be altered nor have its interpretation altered by state law -- Supremacy Clause! -- so it can only be affected by the federal RFRA, not any state RFRA.
Quote
This federal law does not include sexual orientation, so unless there is a state law (like there is in Colorado), the shop owner can refuse service on the basis of being gay.
Uh... historically, true, but the EEOC has been working to expand the federal law's definition of "discrimination on the basis of sex" to include orientation and gender presentation.  They're more on the employment side and are still working to persuade the courts, but they're taken pretty seriously and part of why this sorta thing is happening today.
Quote
After the success of the Hobby Lobby ruling for the power of the RFRA, a state RFRA can be seen as a pre-emptive effort to ensure that religiously-motivated behavior is allowed despite other laws to the contrary.
Well, yes.
Quote from: TristramEvans;823081
Does anyone more experienced in legalese want to unpack that one for me? Because it sounds really bad from a layman's perspective.
It looks like an attempt to prevent local jurisdictions from pulling or refusing to issue certs to anti-gay folk, but it's written pretty incoherently and I'm not sure exactly how it would be interpreted.

It's also been tabled since January, so it's not getting anywhere.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 04:17:08 PM by gattsuru »

Bren

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #276 on: March 31, 2015, 04:22:39 PM »
Ignoring the preamble with its long list of whereas clauses  the bill is only one sentence long. Here is a simplified version.

A person who wants a license, registration, or certificate from the Commonwealth of Virginia shall not be required to do anything or refrain from doing anything that would violate the religious or moral convictions of such person with respect to same-sex "marriage" or homosexual behavior.

   This says that Virginia cannot require a person to do anything (or not do anything) that violates their religious or moral convictions on same sex marriage or homosexual behavior as a condition for granting them a license, registration, etc.
As an example, that would mean bars and restaurants (which are presumably licensed by the Commonwealth) could deny admittance or service to homosexuals (or only allow homosexuals) without affecting their liquor or business license. I'm not sure what other licenses, registrations, and certificates Virginia grants, but there might be some pretty wide ranging potential for effects.

On the other hand, as of 10 FEB 2015 this bill appears to be left in the House Committee on General Laws. It may not be going anywhere else anytime soon.
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Doctor Jest

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #277 on: March 31, 2015, 06:31:23 PM »
Quote from: Brad;821958
I really don't see a problem with these sorts of laws. Limiting the ability of a private business to operate as they wish seems to be the heart of capitalism.

Similarly, when other private businesses decide they don't want to operate in States who have these laws, such as GenCon LLC, and go elsewhere, that's capitalism, too.

Indiana fucked up in terms of Rational Self Interest to the tune of many millions of dollars - more than 50 million annually - all to pander to a political minority. That's just bad for business.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 06:34:10 PM by Doctor Jest »

gattsuru

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #278 on: March 31, 2015, 07:34:00 PM »
I'm doubtful anyone in Indiana seriously expects any of these boycotts to actually exist as things.  GenCon's not going to be able to shift its operations until 2020, and most folk on the right don't expect them to even remember this by the end up this year.  Apple works with China and Iran; they don't even have the grace to be funny jokes here.

And, of course, the last cake bakery to try the discrimination thing in Indiana went out of business within a year, even though the law didn't care and they pandered to counter-protesters.

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #279 on: March 31, 2015, 07:56:02 PM »
Quote from: gattsuru;823119
I'm doubtful anyone in Indiana seriously expects any of these boycotts to actually exist as things.  GenCon's not going to be able to shift its operations until 2020, and most folk on the right don't expect them to even remember this by the end up this year.  Apple works with China and Iran; they don't even have the grace to be funny jokes here.

And, of course, the last cake bakery to try the discrimination thing in Indiana went out of business within a year, even though the law didn't care and they pandered to counter-protesters.


Umm.. We have states and cities boycotting them with any state travel.  Washington and Connecticut as well as Seattle and San Fran.  Forgot New York.
NYC, Portland, OR, Denver, etc, etc.

NCAA, NFL, NASCAr....oh, and the Colts.

the Gap, Levis, SAlesforce (only the largest CRM in the world),  EMC, Oracle, Anthem, Angle's List, etc, etc...

These exist as things.
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James Gillen

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #280 on: March 31, 2015, 08:17:58 PM »
Quote from: flyerfan1991;823047
I've been of the impression that the Bible Belt has been going a bit northward the past couple of decades; I'd say that Southern Indiana and Southern Ohio are part of the Bible Belt now. Not sure about Southern Illinois, however.


As the country gets fatter we have to raise the belt above the waist. :D

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gattsuru

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #281 on: March 31, 2015, 08:19:17 PM »
They exist as people saying things.  Seriously, Connecticut has the exact same law on the books, has for decades.  You can pretend this is a principled stand from NASCAR and the NFL

-- uh, nevermind, bad example--

You could pretend that it's a principled stand from San Franscisco, but do you expect that politicians in Indiana actually believe that?

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #282 on: March 31, 2015, 08:25:57 PM »
Quote from: gattsuru;823131
They exist as people saying things.  Seriously, Connecticut has the exact same law on the books, has for decades.  You can pretend this is a principled stand from NASCAR and the NFL

-- uh, nevermind, bad example--

You could pretend that it's a principled stand from San Franscisco, but do you expect that politicians in Indiana actually believe that?


CT also has anti discriminatory laws on the books that Indiana does not.  Sorry, apples to Oranges.

And while it is actually very interesting watching states and cities actually standing up and staking a space out, more interesting is all the companies pulling out.  That's money they ARE losing.

(and if NASCAR is looking down it's nose at you....where they hell are you?)
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jeff37923

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #283 on: March 31, 2015, 08:46:03 PM »
So, if Gen Con knew they were locked in a contract until 2020 and were not going to leave, then why make the empty threat? What else was motivating them?
"Meh."

gattsuru

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Gen Con to Possibly Leave Indiana [politics]
« Reply #284 on: March 31, 2015, 09:01:47 PM »
Quote from: LordVreeg;823132
CT also has anti discriminatory laws on the books that Indiana does not.  Sorry, apples to Oranges.
... you realize that the CT RFRA would override those laws, if the Indiana one were actually worth worrying about?

Quote from: jeff37923;823136
So, if Gen Con knew they were locked in a contract until 2020 and were not going to leave, then why make the empty threat? What else was motivating them?
It's conceivably possible that they just Cared So Much that they didn't really think about the costs of breaking the contract until later.

But it's probably politics.