Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, transgender, gender identity, etc. in 5e

[Steerpike]

These are the same gods who made ear seekers, rot grubs and black puddings. The same ones who let people get reincarnated as gnolls, troglodytes or badgers. But they draw the line at gender confusion?

They're probably just too busy cross-dressing as brides and birdesmaids to infiltrate Giant weddings to worry about transmigrating souls.

[Rincewind1]

These are the same gods who made ear seekers, rot grubs and black puddings. The same ones who let people get reincarnated as gnolls, troglodytes or badgers.  But they draw the line at gender confusion?

Mad wizards and evil gods/demons make those. They are called abominations for a reason. I don't think gender issues to be made by evil gods, unless we'd look at it as a curse/abomination, which then again, results in probably an uproar. Somewhat justified even in the latter case.

But as I said - if someone wants stalwartly to make such a character, I accept it same way as I can accept a two - headed calf. Just realise that the ideas of tolerance aren't very spread in the setting.

They're probably just too busy cross-dressing as brides and birdesmaids to infiltrate Giant weddings to worry about transmigrating souls.

And yes, I am well aware of such myths. And I'd have no problem with a race of free gender and shape shifters. But they'd not be assumed a norm in the setting, which is the gist of a problem for me - that someone'd demand that if a setting'd show contempt for such races, seeing them as freaks, the author is visibly -ist, rather than perhaps assume this as a suggestion that they aren't very good people, in fact, they are most likely fictional bigots. Then again, there might be cultures, which'd see things the other way around - hermaphrodites as sign of blessing from gods. If I was playing Arrows of Indra, I'd expect in fact such a culture (I think it is even included  there?) with people who'd disagree with them being considered bigots and heathens by the prospective culture.

And yes, I admit that "gods make it alright in most cases" is just a lazy way of me saying "I don't care about this issue very much". If you are changing your gender - kudos, I assume you can play the gender you should've been in my game. If you actually make a big deal of being between both genders - well I admit I see that kind of stuff a bit like someone who'd rather keep a wheelchair than walk, but it's your choice, as long as you are otherwisely good guy/gal/inbetween, I don't care, as long as you don't come up to me demanding equal NPC coverage.

[Eisenmann]

If you find you are mildly repulsed or sort of put off by this paragraph, or find yourself questioning the motives of the authors for rubbing your face in this issue in a PC way ...

... then you are mildly bigoted, sort of a cunt, and, if you check, you will find yourself with your head up your ass.

Do you know that you sound like some 1950's Stepford wife wrinkling her nose at 'all that new fangled nonsense about the coloreds'? If you can only deal with diversity when it is invisible, then you really can't deal with it.

So, go ahead and splutter whatever inevitable flaccid responses you feel obliged to type ('PC-blah, blah, cynical, blah'). Thankfully, we are on a forum where people can speak their minds. But as you type, realize you are just being a dick.

This is exactly why it's irritating.

[Elph]

http://www.scifiwright.com/2014/07/dungeons-and-perverts/

Yes, it was absolutely necessary, if these... people are anything to go by.

[honesttiago]

As I commented elsewhere, I think simply saying "feel free to select your character's genders, values, and behavior as you see fit" would have been enough. I don't necessarily know a RPG needs more than that.

It doesn't need more than that.  Not sure why they bothered to add more to it than that, but it's a fairly harmless thing to drop in. I would've let that alone, however. It is a game, after all, not a social movement. And you run the risk of some on-the-fence parent latching onto something simple as the word hermaphrodite and considering the entire thing the second coming of Dark Dungeons.

[Rincewind1]

It doesn't need more than that.  Not sure why they bothered to add more to it than that, but it's a fairly harmless thing to drop in. I would've let that alone, however. It is a game, after all, not a social movement. And you run the risk of some on-the-fence parent latching onto something simple as the word hermaphrodite and considering the entire thing the second coming of Dark Dungeons.

To be fair, to those people, such things are more excuses than necessary proof, as the very nature of RPGs is Satan to begin with.

[honesttiago]

To be fair, to those people, such things are more excuses than necessary proof, as the very nature of RPGs is Satan to begin with.

Pretty much. I just don't want to give them any ammo and lose a young kid because of parental ignorance. I'm one of those who lost a large collection of comics back in the early 70s due to my mothers fear of perversion (man, if she could see comics NOW...).  I want the rule set as "harmless" as possible (though I'll admit parents that worried about the content likely won't let the thing in the house).

[Just Another Snake Cult]

http://www.scifiwright.com/2014/07/dungeons-and-perverts/

Yes, it was absolutely necessary, if these... people are anything to go by.

Holy shit. His big argument against "Dungeons & Perverts" is an out-of-context page from an old Doctor Strange comic book. LOL.

Grab some popcorn folks, watching the bigots and church ladies freak out over this is gonna be comedy gold.

[Snowman0147]

I get this off my chest.

Before I even knew about this social justice warrior shit I would be actually happy about this.  Really I would.  So why am I not?

I seen developers do some real nice things, but then turn around to brag how progressive they are compared to their competitors.  It is those fucks and the social justice warriors that suck their dicks that ruin these moments for me.  When you turn a good thing into a tool to ride that high horse to shame others you don't just hurt yourself in the long run.  You make people cautious about the next person who does something nice.

I know this isn't me because I had seen documentaries and tv shows that had transgender people that don't give me that feeling.  That feeling that there is something off and wrong.  In fact I feel fine watching those shows and movies.

If I make a game that has transgender people in it wouldn't even phase me.  Mainly for two reasons.  First one is that I am not a social justice warrior nor am I going to use it as a means to be a holier than thou ass hat to other people.  Secondly I know it comes from me so I know who is the source.  

You know what I wouldn't be surprise?  People like myself who enjoy progress, but are cautious about any work (even my work) involving the gaming industries because of the taint that social justice warriors had cast on us all.  I can't blame them because I seen developers use that to climb the higher moral standing pillar.

[Shemmy]

I see it as a welcome step in the direction of acknowledging that a part of their fanbase exists (and I'm on the trans* spectrum) and would like to see the game share that acknowledgement. I'm pleasantly surprised that WotC did this, and they're finally catching up with the moves towards inclusion that Paizo and others have been undertaking for several years now.

It's a good move on WotC's part, but let's see now if they'll feature diversity in character gender and sexuality in future published modules and sourcebooks. I'll be even happier if they do.

[Catelf]

Holy shit. His big argument against "Dungeons & Perverts" is an out-of-context page from an old Doctor Strange comic book. LOL.

Grab some popcorn folks, watching the bigots and church ladies freak out over this is gonna be comedy gold.

I'm religious, and transgender, and I sadly fail to see the fun in this, it rather saddens me.

Those are the types who claim to follow a loving God and his Son, yet they follow none of the Son's preachings ....
... I'll better stop that reasoning here or i'll go into an off-topic rant about false Christians ...

I do find some humor in the irony that he uses a comic that his kind once branded as Satan's scripture, though.
Well, they were wrong then, and they are still wrong.

[Black Vulmea]

If you find you are mildly repulsed or sort of put off by this paragraph, or find yourself questioning the motives of the authors for rubbing your face in this issue in a PC way ...

... then you are mildly bigoted, sort of a cunt, and, if you check, you will find yourself with your head up your ass.

Do you know that you sound like some 1950's Stepford wife wrinkling her nose at 'all that new fangled nonsense about the coloreds'? If you can only deal with diversity when it is invisible, then you really can't deal with it.

So, go ahead and splutter whatever inevitable flaccid responses you feel obliged to type ('PC-blah, blah, cynical, blah'). Thankfully, we are on a forum where people can speak their minds. But as you type, realize you are just being a dick.

Let's see how this works in practice.

My vision is probably clouded by that.

Nope, you're just being a dick.

I said it in the other thread, I'll repeat it here: this just seems like a marketing gimmick to appeal to some politically correct agenda. It has no place in a roleplaying game. I want to play wizards and elves in a fantasy realm, not worry about some minority opinion being pushed down my throat 24/7 by the media.

Nope, you're just being a dick.


Lars, I think you nailed it.

[Rincewind1]

Pretty much. I just don't want to give them any ammo and lose a young kid because of parental ignorance. I'm one of those who lost a large collection of comics back in the early 70s due to my mothers fear of perversion (man, if she could see comics NOW...).  I want the rule set as "harmless" as possible (though I'll admit parents that worried about the content likely won't let the thing in the house).

Trust me, that'd not stop your mother. She'd just add "And we're now protecting our children from the evil GENDER."

I utterly hate censors, preachers and loons on both sides, but if someone can't get over that little bit in an RPG book, he probably wouldn't get over RPGs in the first place.

[Catelf]

This.

Personally, I am cool with it (as long as nobody expects "minority quotas" in adventures ) - not all transsexuals are cunts, just those  that write on RPG.net (Hello darlings, I know you will be reading this thread!!).

I think i'm happy I currently do not even have an account on RPG.net.


EDIT:

...if someone can't get over that little bit in an RPG book, he probably wouldn't get over RPGs in the first place.

You are sadly correct there.

[Steerpike]

And yes, I am well aware of such myths. And I'd have no problem with a race of free gender and shape shifters. But they'd not be assumed a norm in the setting, which is the gist of a problem for me - that someone'd demand that if a setting'd show contempt for such races, seeing them as freaks, the author is visibly -ist, rather than perhaps assume this as a suggestion that they aren't very good people, in fact, they are most likely fictional bigots.

I get what you're saying, but that passage didn't seem to be aggressively establishing the social norms of the world.  Rather, it was telling players to play what they like and not feel constrained to binary gender.  It doesn't comment on the way those characters will be treated, beyond perhaps hinting that Elven intersex characters are seen as just fine in Elven society.

As others have pointed out, this is just a small passage, a single paragraph in a large book - it's not like a pervasive "agenda" is at play throughout the text, or that the handbook is a polemic for a social movement.  Encouraging players to play what they want - especially in a fantasy world that's about escapism - is not the same as pushing a "message."