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Author Topic: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations  (Read 4227 times)

Tait Ransom

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« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2019, 12:15:05 pm »
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105860
Expanding...

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

If my in-group mistreats you while we're in power, it seems likely that you'll mistreat us when you're in power.  If I return to power I'll want to revenge myself upon you when you were just revenging yourself upon me.  This is especially problematic if the people now being persecuted aren't really the ones who started the whole issue.  

If I mistreat you and you later wind up in power, rather than revenge, you should look for justice.  That doesn't just mean punishing the people who did bad things, it also means tearing down the structures they built to ensure their continued rule - not just turning them against their former masters.


An eye for an eye limits retribution.  It means you can do what was done to you, but no more.

Tait Ransom

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« Reply #211 on: September 29, 2019, 12:16:02 pm »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105861
Okey, now I understand your position, and you might be right or not I see no way to destroy cancel culture other than to have them live under it. It's that or to lose like a gentleman. Guess we'll get to find out who was right.


I agree with you.  I hate we're in this spot, but I think you're right.

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #212 on: September 29, 2019, 12:39:16 pm »
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106629
There's research in game theory and conflict that suggest you are mistaken, that tit-for-tat is an effective strategy and response.  In the current big example, Aaron Calvin (a reporter) was doing a piece on Carson King, a guy who was making news by raising money for a children's hospital.  Calvin dug up 8 year old Tweets from when King was 16.  The Tweets were racist, but had nothing to do with the current situation.  King suffered some fallout.  Meanwhile, someone digs into Calvin's background, and in a turn of events shocking precisely no one, turns up racist Tweets.

Calvin gets fired, the paper maintains the original story should have gone forward as it did, Calvin maintains he's only being fired because of a right wing rage mob.

Both Calvin and the paper miss the point - there will be one standard for all of us, or there will be none at all.  What there will NOT be is them trying to gin up a rage mob and writing it off as actions have consequences, then claiming it's dirty pool when the same tactic is used on them.


But they see themselves as the anointed, as the chosen ones, the new aristocracy. And we're the unwashed masses. Ergo how dare you think you're the equal of your betters!

Yes, equality is a just principle, so if they want cancel culture they have to be really pure or get cancelled. And since they are only human... They aren't really pure, none of us is.
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RandyB

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« Reply #213 on: September 29, 2019, 02:57:35 pm »
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106630
An eye for an eye limits retribution.  It means you can do what was done to you, but no more.

This is so often overlooked, typically by those who want to take an eye without losing one of their own, or take more than one eye for the eye that was taken from them.

Ratman_tf

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« Reply #214 on: September 29, 2019, 05:05:03 pm »
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106629

Both Calvin and the paper miss the point - there will be one standard for all of us, or there will be none at all.  What there will NOT be is them trying to gin up a rage mob and writing it off as actions have consequences, then claiming it's dirty pool when the same tactic is used on them.


See, this I'm totally down with.
I dislike cancel culture, but if they're going to do it, they better damn well live up to the same standards.
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GeekyBugle

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« Reply #215 on: September 29, 2019, 08:48:43 pm »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106667
See, this I'm totally down with.
I dislike cancel culture, but if they're going to do it, they better damn well live up to the same standards.

So, like I have been saying:  Make them live under their own rules?
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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Ratman_tf

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« Reply #216 on: September 29, 2019, 10:08:15 pm »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1106694
So, like I have been saying:  Make them live under their own rules?

Sorta. It's like, for example, when Al Franken stepped down due to pressure from his gropey pictures that came out. Myself, I didn't care that much. It was years ago, it was tasteless and dumb, but nothing a senator couldn't apologize for (apologize to the woman, not the SJW pitchfork mob)
But according to #metoo, he's a horrible, rapey monster, and that's all he'll ever be, so when he stepped down due to mob pressure, I was like "Sucks to be you!"
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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jhkim

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« Reply #217 on: September 29, 2019, 10:34:11 pm »
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106629
Both Calvin and the paper miss the point - there will be one standard for all of us, or there will be none at all.  What there will NOT be is them trying to gin up a rage mob and writing it off as actions have consequences, then claiming it's dirty pool when the same tactic is used on them.
I agree that there should be a single standard. Liberals should not encourage a rage mob, and then complain it's dirty pool to use the tactic against them.

Conversely, conservatives who think that it's find to use such mob tactics against liberals, can't also complain that liberal mob tactics are wrong.

Too often, I hear logic from either side like "They started it, so it's wrong for them to use it -- but it's justice for us to use it against them."

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #218 on: September 29, 2019, 10:40:47 pm »
Quote from: jhkim;1106707
I agree that there should be a single standard. Liberals should not encourage a rage mob, and then complain it's dirty pool to use the tactic against them.

Conversely, conservatives who think that it's find to use such mob tactics against liberals, can't also complain that liberal mob tactics are wrong.

Too often, I hear logic from either side like "They started it, so it's wrong for them to use it -- but it's justice for us to use it against them."

So, what are you advocating for? Losing like a gentleman?
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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jhkim

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« Reply #219 on: September 29, 2019, 11:31:35 pm »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1106708
So, what are you advocating for? Losing like a gentleman?

The main thing is consistency. If you're going to engage in mob tactics, then don't whine about how the other side engages in mob tactics.

On the other hand, it's possible for people to not engage in mob tactics. The more people who do this on both sides, the more we can get away from that side of culture. It's not possible to win in the sense of eliminating mob tactics, but I think it is possible to reduce their power. I'm not convinced that mob tactics are all that effective in the long run. They might work to some extent, but they can produce burnout and apathy after a time, and make the people engaging in it look like assholes - which turns off many moderates.

Pat

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« Reply #220 on: September 29, 2019, 11:47:22 pm »
Quote from: jhkim;1106714
The main thing is consistency. If you're going to engage in mob tactics, then don't whine about how the other side engages in mob tactics.
That's a ridiculous oversimplification. A lot of human moral choices can be described as variations on the prisoner's dilemma, which inherently rejects a one size fits all response. It's about trust, rewards, and punishments, but the decisions are based on past behavior and not made in a vacuum. You can default to trusting, or default to not trusting, and there can be a complex series of conditions about when you punish or forgive, but the essential idea is cooperation and fair play is the best solution to a wide range of problems, but only if it's mutual. It's most commonly expressed in terms of individual decisions, but it's also valid at the group level. So if you decide a group is untrustworthy, then you should treat them as untrustworthy. There is nothing wrong with engaging fairly with those who engage fairly with you, and punishing those who have proven they will not.

If a group consistently uses unfair tactics, using the same tactics against them and and complaining about their use of those tactics is a rational response. Because the goal isn't punishment, it's cooperation. Bad actors need to be punished, but they should know why they're being punished so they have the chance to remedy their behavior. And by making the complaint public, others may decide the bad actors merit punishment, and other potential bad actors are warned of the consequences.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 11:57:31 pm by Pat »

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #221 on: September 30, 2019, 01:30:13 am »
Quote from: jhkim;1106714
The main thing is consistency. If you're going to engage in mob tactics, then don't whine about how the other side engages in mob tactics.

On the other hand, it's possible for people to not engage in mob tactics. The more people who do this on both sides, the more we can get away from that side of culture. It's not possible to win in the sense of eliminating mob tactics, but I think it is possible to reduce their power. I'm not convinced that mob tactics are all that effective in the long run. They might work to some extent, but they can produce burnout and apathy after a time, and make the people engaging in it look like assholes - which turns off many moderates.


Except one side targets anybody to the right of Mao, and the other only targets those who have already shown themselves willing to destroy lifes. Example the "journalist" in the million dollars charity case. Exposing his racism I guess you could call that mob tactics, I would call it making them live under their own rules, if anything in your past is valid to dstroy you then so be it, they aren't saints you know?
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #222 on: September 30, 2019, 04:43:44 am »
Quote from: jhkim;1106714
The main thing is consistency.


No. The main thing is victory. Nobody cares for how the fight was won when the smoke clears.

One side will win the culture war. For decades, its clearly been SJW victory upon victory across the culture, regardless of their scumbag tactics, the result for them is the same: winning.

Playing nice and fair and blah blah blah is just a recipe for more loss.

Gagarth

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« Reply #223 on: September 30, 2019, 06:36:16 am »
Quote from: jhkim;1106707
I Too often, I hear logic from either side like "They started it, so it's wrong for them to use it -- but it's justice for us to use it against them."
What you call Conservative mobs would never have existed if  intersectional jihadist mobs had not led the way so  your condemnation is utter bollocks.
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Ratman_tf

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« Reply #224 on: September 30, 2019, 01:51:52 pm »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1106740
No. The main thing is victory. Nobody cares for how the fight was won when the smoke clears.

One side will win the culture war. For decades, its clearly been SJW victory upon victory across the culture, regardless of their scumbag tactics, the result for them is the same: winning.

Playing nice and fair and blah blah blah is just a recipe for more loss.



You've defeated yourself. If only victory matters, and principles lead to defeat, then it doesn't matter who wins. Both sides are just as "bad", and the people caught in the middle should just adapt to the "winning" side's demands.
From that perspective, the SJW's deserve to "win", since they, so far, have proven to be the stronger.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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