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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Trond on September 01, 2019, 01:11:44 PM

Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 01, 2019, 01:11:44 PM
OK, I'll try a new thread on this. The game developer Alec Holowka committed suicide after #Metoo accusations from .....Zoe Quinn (of Gamergate fame).


    https://heavy.com/games/2019/08/alec-holowka-dead/


I would usually be cautious about saying anything about guilt in such cases, but Zoe Quinn has absolutely no credibility, and now this guy is dead. Why doesn't Zoe have any credibility you say? Well, she seems to have a strong tendency to end up being abused and harassed at every turn, according to her own account. For instance, take a look at the story surrounding her "leaked" nude photos, that she has been crying about. They were taken commercially as erotica. And the (female) photographer thought (probably correctly) that she's a psycho, who likes to make up violent stories about who she has been sexually attacked and abused.

I'm starting to think that she actually belongs behind bars.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 02, 2019, 04:50:42 PM
Quote from: Trond;1101796
I'm starting to think that she actually belongs behind bars.

Probably. But her tactic of relational aggression means she's a step removed from any of her wrongdoing, making pinning specifics on her difficult.
Which has become the point of #metoo
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 02, 2019, 05:33:32 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1101925
Probably. But her tactic of relational aggression means she's a step removed from any of her wrongdoing, making pinning specifics on her difficult.
Which has become the point of #metoo

That I know off:

A teen in Argentina committed suicide after being falsely accused of rape by his ex (she admitted as much) but the mob would not stop, also his mom committed suicide one year after, survives the sister who now also has suicidal thoughts.

A musician in México committed suicide after rape allegations (without evidence of course).

Now this poor guy is the latest victim of the metoo witch hunt.

So that makes it 4 deaths and how many lives ruined without evidence?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 02, 2019, 05:38:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101927
That I know off:

A teen in Argentina committed suicide after being falsely accused of rape by his ex (she admitted as much) but the mob would not stop, also his mom committed suicide one year after, survives the sister who now also has suicidal thoughts.

A musician in México committed suicide after rape allegations (without evidence of course).

Now this poor guy is the latest victim of the metoo witch hunt.

So that makes it 4 deaths and how many lives ruined without evidence?

Holy shit, that's tragic.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: rgalex on September 03, 2019, 07:56:54 AM
Quote from: Trond;1101796
OK, I'll try a new thread on this. The game developer Alec Holowka committed suicide after #Metoo accusations from .....Zoe Quinn (of Gamergate fame).


    https://heavy.com/games/2019/08/alec-holowka-dead/


I would usually be cautious about saying anything about guilt in such cases, but Zoe Quinn has absolutely no credibility, and now this guy is dead. Why doesn't Zoe have any credibility you say? Well, she seems to have a strong tendency to end up being abused and harassed at every turn, according to her own account. For instance, take a look at the story surrounding her "leaked" nude photos, that she has been crying about. They were taken commercially as erotica. And the (female) photographer thought (probably correctly) that she's a psycho, who likes to make up violent stories about who she has been sexually attacked and abused.

I'm starting to think that she actually belongs behind bars.


So out of the blue and with no real reason she posts this to Twitter, knowing exactly what's going to follow (because she can't be that dumb).  That's despite it happening years ago and supposedly after she had forgiven him.

And it's amazing how many horrible people she ends up connected to.  Hey Zoe, if everyone you meet smells like dog shit maybe you should check your own shoes before blaming them.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 03, 2019, 10:03:02 AM
And because the accuser who pushed him over the edge is Her Holiness Zoe Quinn, the articles being written about Holowka are of course all designed to make you think that he really was an abuser. Notice that the Daily Dot article gives a hotline to for sexual abuse victims, not a suicide hotline:

https://archive.fo/xmwir
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 03, 2019, 12:10:42 PM
Women have a certain amount of leverage in society. That's why it's the VAWA and not just the VA. Though I think it's been subtly shifting over the past few years. There's more people aware that victimhood is also social currency. (For good or for ill)
Not enough though.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: ArrozConLeche on September 03, 2019, 12:51:03 PM
Clear enough example of why you need to avoid psychos.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Fergurg on September 03, 2019, 02:12:28 PM
About a year ago or so, I said on this forum that we need to strike back harder at these human-shaped monsters. I said that we are losing because they understand that this is a war and wars are not won by higher moral ground; wars are won by making the enemy more afraid of what will happen if they keep fighting than of what will happen if they surrender.

Now the Ctrl-Left has a body count that keeps rising. The virtuous are afraid of speaking out while the wicked are growing bolder in their plans and more violent in their desires.

Now, do you believe me, or do we need more bodies before we fight to win?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 03, 2019, 02:20:30 PM
I reached out to the photographer, and what do you know, I received a short response :)  besides saying that what happened to the game dev was very sad, she only adds this about  Zoe Quinn :

Quote
I knew her many years ago, and still think she's sketchy af.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 03, 2019, 03:28:49 PM
Quote from: Fergurg;1102077
About a year ago or so, I said on this forum that we need to strike back harder at these human-shaped monsters. I said that we are losing because they understand that this is a war and wars are not won by higher moral ground; wars are won by making the enemy more afraid of what will happen if they keep fighting than of what will happen if they surrender.

Now the Ctrl-Left has a body count that keeps rising. The virtuous are afraid of speaking out while the wicked are growing bolder in their plans and more violent in their desires.

Now, do you believe me, or do we need more bodies before we fight to win?

Do you think that Zoe Quinn killed this guy as part of some political agenda?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Fergurg on September 03, 2019, 04:12:46 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1102092
Do you think that Zoe Quinn killed this guy as part of some political agenda?

Yes. Did she intend for him to die? She intended to do serious harm to him; I suspect that this is just a bonus.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 03, 2019, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: Fergurg;1102098
Yes. Did she intend for him to die? She intended to do serious harm to him; I suspect that this is just a bonus.

The main bonus probably being her Patreon backers, who have been calling for more supporters  in the "troubling time". She is not showing how much she currently makes there, but I think it was ticking upwards when she hid it.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 03, 2019, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Fergurg;1102098
Yes. Did she intend for him to die? She intended to do serious harm to him; I suspect that this is just a bonus.

I'm not seeing a political agenda though. She strikes me as someone using the "progressive" movement for her own personal and emotional gain.
And she certainly didn't directly kill him.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 03, 2019, 05:38:19 PM
Quote from: Fergurg;1102077
Now the Ctrl-Left has a body count that keeps rising. The virtuous are afraid of speaking out while the wicked are growing bolder in their plans and more violent in their desires.

Now, do you believe me, or do we need more bodies before we fight to win?
Every political side has a body count, and that has been true throughout history. This is even more true if you count indirect deaths like contributing to depression leading to suicide. The U.S. is a country of over 300 million. We have over 16,000 murders every year and over 45,000 suicides. If even a tiny fraction of those are politically motivated or politically biased, then that is a body count.

The question is, what do you mean by "fight to win"? What changes do you advocate compared to current practice?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 03, 2019, 09:52:10 PM
Quote from: Fergurg;1102077
The virtuous are afraid of speaking out while the wicked are growing bolder in their plans and more violent in their desires.

Amazing Lucas did a video about this and I started a thread about it. Your thoughts are welcome.  
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40992-Democrat-Socialists-convention-is-a-wake-up-call-for-anyone-right-of-Mao


Quote from: Fergurg;1102077
Now, do you believe me, or do we need more bodies before we fight to win?

By the time America (and Europe) wakes the fuck up, it will be too late.


Quote from: jhkim;1102119
The question is, what do you mean by "fight to win"? What changes do you advocate compared to current practice?

Civil war.

The Left knows they can run out the clock while they manipulate the culture, especially destroying male children. The black family has collapsed, the white family is crumbling, and the Left seeks to control Latinos using the same strategies that work south of the border. The focus on gun control, deplatforming and "red flagging" will accelerate to ensure any future opposition will be without teeth, outreach or soldiers.

Be metro! Be trans! Girls are the future! Toxic masculinity! Rethink being male to fight climate change! Sit inside and play video games! Accept everything we tell you! Portland punches Nazis! Guns cause mass shootings! Personal responsibility is racism! Testosterone levels are dropping! LOL. Surely none of this could have any long term effects?

In 20 years the Center and Right will wake up in panic, unable to recognize their nation or their culture. And if they take to the streets, they will find themselves too old, too few and too unable to organize. Hell, their own children may look at them and REEEEEEEEEE.

I had this conversation this weekend. America 2019 is Hong Kong 1989. The Communists will own us in 10 years.

Nobody but extremists can even conceive of fighting a civil war. Life is just too comfy and we delude ourselves that Trump, Jesus or GenZ will save us. Whether we "silently disapprove" or "silently agree" to be good woke citizens, the result is the same as we binge on french fries and Netflix. Our Tienanmen Square isn't tanks over bodies. It's everyone scared of losing their jobs (and/or killing themselves) when the Twitter mob discovers their wrongthink.

If you're not-Left, watch what's happening in Hong Kong right now. That's your kids.

Tick tock motherfuckers.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 03, 2019, 10:59:08 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1102180
Civil war.

Paranoid bullshit. "The Communists will own us in 10 years." we have heard that line for 70 years at least.
Civil war against whom? Professors?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Fergurg on September 03, 2019, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: Trond;1102197
Paranoid bullshit. "The Communists will own us in 10 years." we have heard that line for 70 years at least.
Civil war against whom? Professors?

You know why the Communists didn't take over? Because we stopped them. That wasn't paranoia; it was taking them seriously.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 03, 2019, 11:13:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1101925
Probably. But her tactic of relational aggression means she's a step removed from any of her wrongdoing, making pinning specifics on her difficult.
Which has become the point of #metoo


Manson never killed anyone, he was just the cult leader that directed his mob of wackjob flying monkeys towards targets.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 03, 2019, 11:14:22 PM
Quote from: Fergurg;1102199
You know why the Communists didn't take over? Because we stopped them. That wasn't paranoia; it was taking them seriously.

So? It wasn't a civil war. It was just people electing differently when they'd had enough. I have lived in societies far closer to communism than America today, but it STILL wasn't communism as long as people were willing to let go when they were no longer elected.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Shasarak on September 04, 2019, 03:55:56 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1102180
Nobody but extremists can even conceive of fighting a civil war. Life is just too comfy and we delude ourselves that Trump, Jesus or GenZ will save us. Whether we "silently disapprove" or "silently agree" to be good woke citizens, the result is the same as we binge on french fries and Netflix. Our Tienanmen Square isn't tanks over bodies. It's everyone scared of losing their jobs (and/or killing themselves) when the Twitter mob discovers their wrongthink.

If you're not-Left, watch what's happening in Hong Kong right now. That's your kids.

Tick tock motherfuckers.

I dont think it is as bad as the elites want you to believe.  Look at the Dave Chappelle comedy special, the Critic Elites hated it and the Audience loved it.  You just got to remember that a Twitter storm dont mean Jack.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3799[/ATTACH]
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Novastar on September 06, 2019, 01:05:49 AM
Dave Chapelle has got enough celebrity status to survive and distribute.
Imagine if a young comic posted the same material on YouTube or Twitter; do you think it would survive?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: rgalex on September 06, 2019, 08:36:40 AM
And let's compare Chapelle's show to Knock Down the House, a political documentary about "The Squad".

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3810[/ATTACH]

So you mean to tell me that across 83 critic reviews no one, not a single person, found it less than perfect?  That's some awesome documentary making there.  I'm sure the 2100ish audience reviews though, those are all alt-right nazi trolls.

Also, back to Quinn, it didn't need to be political in motivation.  It got her nearly 50,000 new Twitter followers when she made the accusation.  That's a lot of social power right there.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Snowman0147 on September 06, 2019, 01:57:38 PM
I suspect that that 50,000 of new twitter followers may had gotten her a few hundred of people to put money into her patreon account.  She was losing some money over the years with that one.  One time she was making 4k a month which dropped over time to 1.5k a month as I was told.  Now we don't know how much she makes per month as she block out that information.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2019, 04:58:09 PM
And the media is already blaming the fragility of gamers for the actions of LW.

Feminism: The revolutionary idea that women are children and have no agency of their own.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 06, 2019, 07:37:10 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1101927
That I know off:
So that makes it 4 deaths and how many lives ruined without evidence?

If someone does something to me, I can tell people what happened.  I don't need evidence because I have direct experience.  There are a lot of reasons why evidence of something that really happened can be hard to come by.  That doesn't mean people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.  If you do something bad to me, I tell people, and you feel shunned, that's the breaks.  If you do something bad to me, I tell people, and they make death threats against you, they should go to jail.  That's the law.  

Quote from: rgalex;1102695
So you mean to tell me that across 83 critic reviews no one, not a single person, found it less than perfect?

You sound like an idiot.  A 'Fresh' rating is 60% or better (ie, 3 out of 5 stars).  

Not every critic had to give it 100% for it to have a 100% critical meta score; each review is scored as either 'rotten' or 'fresh'.  If every critic game it a 65% it would be '100% Fresh'.  If every critic gave it a 75%, it would be '100% Fresh'.  If every critic gave it a 100%, it would '100% Fresh'.  The better a movie is, the more likely you would expect it to be on the high side; if the median result were 65% (a fresh rating) you'd still expect some reviews to be below and some to be above.  

If you look at the individual reviews (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/knock_down_the_house#contentReviews) you will see scores like 2.5/4, 3/4, 4/5, etc.  Those are by no means unanimously 'perfect scores'.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jeff37923 on September 06, 2019, 07:43:54 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102811
That doesn't mean people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.  If you do something bad to me, I tell people, and you feel shunned, that's the breaks.

Or the people you tell do not shun that person and instead congratulate them because they think you are an asshole.

People are funny like that.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 06, 2019, 08:33:23 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102811
If someone does something to me, I can tell people what happened.  I don't need evidence because I have direct experience.  There are a lot of reasons why evidence of something that really happened can be hard to come by.  That doesn't mean people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.  If you do something bad to me, I tell people, and you feel shunned, that's the breaks.  If you do something bad to me, I tell people, and they make death threats against you, they should go to jail.  That's the law.  .

Why it doesn't surprise me you're in favor of the lynch mob? We have laws exactly to stop this, and I mentioned innocent victims of the lynch mob, not that we could ever be sure any of the lynched was guilty since there was no police involved.

Kangaroo courts, star courts, where the innocent is guilty no matter what. Lefties love that shit.

Guess the guys in universities whose life some assholes ruined without evidence should be thankful the leftie mob didn't directly kill them right?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 06, 2019, 08:40:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim
The question is, what do you mean by "fight to win"? What changes do you advocate compared to current practice?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1102180
Civil war.

The Left knows they can run out the clock while they manipulate the culture, especially destroying male children. The black family has collapsed, the white family is crumbling, and the Left seeks to control Latinos using the same strategies that work south of the border. The focus on gun control, deplatforming and "red flagging" will accelerate to ensure any future opposition will be without teeth, outreach or soldiers.

Be metro! Be trans! Girls are the future! Toxic masculinity! Rethink being male to fight climate change! Sit inside and play video games! Accept everything we tell you! Portland punches Nazis! Guns cause mass shootings! Personal responsibility is racism! Testosterone levels are dropping! LOL. Surely none of this could have any long term effects?

In 20 years the Center and Right will wake up in panic, unable to recognize their nation or their culture. And if they take to the streets, they will find themselves too old, too few and too unable to organize. Hell, their own children may look at them and REEEEEEEEEE.
Culture always changes, but I don't see the U.S. changing more quickly now than changes of previous generations (i.e. the 1960s and so forth). Socialism and liberalism were able to survive in the 1950s despite blacklists and repressive culture. In the long run, I don't think that suppression of thought works well. People develop an underground and the attempts at suppression reinforce their belief.

To my view, the U.S. is increasingly polarized. There are more hard left and more hard right -- mostly fed by a diet of social media and only consuming media that matches their politics -- i.e. echo chambers. Part of this is illusory, though, because both sides prefer to paint everyone as only extremists (especially opponents). In political terms, we have definitely been moving to more voting in two uniform blocks.

In terms of overall trends among both sides, though, I think the slide towards liberalism is at least slowing. Gen Z seem to be slightly more conservative than Millennials were at the same age, at least on several fronts. I'm not sure if this is as much of a backlash as 1980s Reaganism, but I think it's significant.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1102180
I had this conversation this weekend. America 2019 is Hong Kong 1989. The Communists will own us in 10 years.

Nobody but extremists can even conceive of fighting a civil war. Life is just too comfy and we delude ourselves that Trump, Jesus or GenZ will save us. Whether we "silently disapprove" or "silently agree" to be good woke citizens, the result is the same as we binge on french fries and Netflix. Our Tienanmen Square isn't tanks over bodies. It's everyone scared of losing their jobs (and/or killing themselves) when the Twitter mob discovers their wrongthink.
What I find slightly amusing and slightly scary is how both extremes keep upping their increasingly dire predictions. Hard left tend to play up how fascism is on the rise, and we have to resist before they start putting more people into camps -- and/or how humanity might be doomed from climate change. The hard right just as insistent that everyone is doomed, but from the opposite causes.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 06, 2019, 11:50:01 PM
The Right wants the Left to stop screaming and chill the fuck out.

The Left wants the Right to die horribly.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 07, 2019, 02:16:30 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102811
If someone does something to me, I can tell people what happened.  I don't need evidence because I have direct experience.  There are a lot of reasons why evidence of something that really happened can be hard to come by.  That doesn't mean people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions.  If you do something bad to me, I tell people, and you feel shunned, that's the breaks.  If you do something bad to me, I tell people, and they make death threats against you, they should go to jail.  That's the law..


The problem is Zoe Quinn imagines people did something to her which they did not, posts about it on social media to get monetary and emotional support, drums up a digital lynch mob and then plays the moral arbiter. You don't have much respect for due process do you?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 07, 2019, 09:16:20 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1102854
The problem is Zoe Quinn imagines people did something to her which they did not, posts about it on social media to get monetary and emotional support, drums up a digital lynch mob and then plays the moral arbiter. You don't have much respect for due process do you?

I have a lot of respect for due process.  But you can't tell me that I shouldn't tell my friends on the playground that so and so is a big meanie who pushed me off the slide or took my toy, even if no parents were made aware.

As a parent, if my neighbors warn me about someone that is 'too interested in kids', I'll make sure my kids aren't around that guy.  He doesn't need to be a convicted sex offender for me to be cautious.  That doesn't mean I get to beat him to death.  

There's a lot of things people CAN DO that are perfectly legal, but still make them assholes.  When I have sufficient evidence for my own purposes, I'm going to assume they're assholes, even if they never went to jail.  

But go on - tell me, what's the due process if a friend steals your unpublished work?  How would you handle that happening to you?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jeff37923 on September 07, 2019, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1102841
The Right wants the Left to stop screaming and chill the fuck out.

The Left wants the Right to die horribly.

And will keep redefining what the Right is until only one exits the Culture Thunderdome.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 07, 2019, 10:12:34 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102899
I have a lot of respect for due process.  But you can't tell me that I shouldn't tell my friends on the playground that so and so is a big meanie who pushed me off the slide or took my toy, even if no parents were made aware.

As a parent, if my neighbors warn me about someone that is 'too interested in kids', I'll make sure my kids aren't around that guy.  He doesn't need to be a convicted sex offender for me to be cautious.  That doesn't mean I get to beat him to death.  

There's a lot of things people CAN DO that are perfectly legal, but still make them assholes.  When I have sufficient evidence for my own purposes, I'm going to assume they're assholes, even if they never went to jail.  

But go on - tell me, what's the due process if a friend steals your unpublished work?  How would you handle that happening to you?


It's also allowable to use half a brain cell, and not support the claims of sociopathic liars. A lot of people involved seem as if they were born yesterday. If you think Zoe is anywhere near trustworthy, then I don't know what to tell you, except maybe read the story about her and her photographer.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 07, 2019, 01:41:12 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102899
I have a lot of respect for due process.  But you can't tell me that I shouldn't tell my friends on the playground that so and so is a big meanie who pushed me off the slide or took my toy, even if no parents were made aware.

As a parent, if my neighbors warn me about someone that is 'too interested in kids', I'll make sure my kids aren't around that guy.  He doesn't need to be a convicted sex offender for me to be cautious.  That doesn't mean I get to beat him to death.  

There's a lot of things people CAN DO that are perfectly legal, but still make them assholes.  When I have sufficient evidence for my own purposes, I'm going to assume they're assholes, even if they never went to jail.  

But go on - tell me, what's the due process if a friend steals your unpublished work?  How would you handle that happening to you?

Feminism/SocJus The radical notion that wahmen are children and need to be protected from the big meanie stinky pants poopoo heads.

Playing dumb and moving the goal post like always, serious charges under the MooToo lynchmob banner =/= Someone stealing your unpublished work.

But, then again, how come you can't prove it's your work? In this day and age? Fuck off!
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 07, 2019, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102899
I have a lot of respect for due process.  But you can't tell me that I shouldn't tell my friends on the playground that so and so is a big meanie who pushed me off the slide or took my toy, even if no parents were made aware.

What if you're lying because you hate the guy and want to see him suffer?

How is a third party supposed to decide if you're lying or truthful?

SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

Perhaps some kind of Evidence would help.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 08, 2019, 12:38:16 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102899
I have a lot of respect for due process.  But you can't tell me that I shouldn't tell my friends on the playground that so and so is a big meanie who pushed me off the slide or took my toy, even if no parents were made aware.

As a parent, if my neighbors warn me about someone that is 'too interested in kids', I'll make sure my kids aren't around that guy.  He doesn't need to be a convicted sex offender for me to be cautious.  That doesn't mean I get to beat him to death.  

There's a lot of things people CAN DO that are perfectly legal, but still make them assholes.  When I have sufficient evidence for my own purposes, I'm going to assume they're assholes, even if they never went to jail.  

But go on - tell me, what's the due process if a friend steals your unpublished work?  How would you handle that happening to you?

It's real simple, confront them directly, or if they committed a crime, report them to the proper authorities. It is cowardly and unethical to pillory them publicly. Not saying you can't do that, as you point out, it makes you the asshole. And while I know you have no discomfort being the asshole, you seem to adopt that persona daily here, having your life ruined by an unsubstantiated accusation is a bypass of due process. While I am not saying you can't protect yourself with reasonable suspicions, but to announce that publicly without proof is wrong. If you don't see this there's not much left to say on the issue. By the way, have you stopped beating your wife and raping your children yet?

You see the point? I don't have to have any evidence to sling accusations. It makes them neither true nor credible and yet accusations like that have and continue to ruin lives. You are okay with that? Guaranteed, you participate in that shitty behavior and you will be hoisted on your own petard.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 08, 2019, 01:36:58 PM
You are right that making untrue accusations makes you an asshole.  But no, I'm not worried about someone accusing me of beating my wife and/or children.  I am not worried about spurious accusations ruining my life.  

I have certainly had people I know and trust about shady deeds done by someone they know better than I do.  As a reasonable person, I try to determine both whether the accusation is reasonable and whether the person making the accusation is trustworthy.  I absolutely do determine how I will engage with that person.  I absolutely will avoid people that I have credible testimony that they are not worth engaging with.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 08, 2019, 01:53:26 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103038
You are right that making untrue accusations makes you an asshole.  But no, I'm not worried about someone accusing me of beating my wife and/or children.  I am not worried about spurious accusations ruining my life.  

I have certainly had people I know and trust about shady deeds done by someone they know better than I do.  As a reasonable person, I try to determine both whether the accusation is reasonable and whether the person making the accusation is trustworthy.  I absolutely do determine how I will engage with that person.  I absolutely will avoid people that I have credible testimony that they are not worth engaging with.

Emphasis mine.

And yet here you are in a discussion about a known liar and abuser making serious accusations without any evidence and taking the side of the accuser.

Yes I'm truly compelled to believe your assertions about you determining if the accusations is reasonable and the accuser trustworthy.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 08, 2019, 11:03:09 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1102899
But go on - tell me, what's the due process if a friend steals your unpublished work?  How would you handle that happening to you?


If your work involved a computer, your documents have digital date stamps.

If someone steals your unpublished work, you go to court to prove ownership.

However, if its just two people with similar ideas and one published first, that's somewhat harder and you would probably need a lawyer experienced in IP law to prove why the ideas were your own and deserve protection.

Back when email first allowed attachments, a Hollywood lawyer told screenwriters to email drafts of their work to themselves and save those emails forever. The lawyer felt the digital stamping would provide a significant level of protection. Of course, the studios got around that by requiring writers to effectively sign over their entire rights during the submission process.


Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103038
I am not worried about spurious accusations ruining my life.


LOL.

Neither did the people whose lives were ruined by spurious accusations!

Like you, they figured it couldn't or wouldn't happen to them!
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 08, 2019, 11:56:45 PM
Quote from: Trond;1102197
Paranoid bullshit. "The Communists will own us in 10 years." we have heard that line for 70 years at least.


In 2016, the DNC's runner up candidate was Bernie Sanders who tempered his socialist message in populism. In 2020, the DNC is running multiple candidates with communist-lite platforms and our media celebrates them. Why would 2024 or 2028 not be a progression from here?

Communism has become disturbingly popular with Millennials and GenZ under the lovely false moniker of "socialism", and unfortunately they do not value freedom of speech. They, not us, are the future of US voters. Thus, even if Trump wins in 2020, they will demand DNC candidates in 2024 and 2028 to be even more strident than the current clown car.  

America 2019 is most definitely Hong Kong 1989. The vast majority of HK believed China's takeover wouldn't change their daily lives. Being fearful of communism repression was "paranoid bullshit" because HK was just too valuable.

However, in 1989 China showed us how it deals with dissenters.

In 2019, the US is learning all about de-platforming of dissenters. Voice the wrong opinion? Oops, no more Patreon, no more Uber, no more PayPal access. Maybe no more career?

De-platforming will increase in the future, especially as Silicon Valley continuously invades our lives more every day as we voluntarily surrender our data, our freedom and our thoughts to our "smart" devices.  
 

Quote from: Trond;1102197
Civil war against whom? Professors?


If America was going to save itself, the answer was to stomp all anti-American indoctrination in our public schools or publicly owned media. But that ship sailed a long time ago.  

Instead, we used our own tax dollars to poison our own children.

The US culture which rejected communism in the past does not exist today...thanks to the destruction of our education systems and subversion of our media.

Simply put, there aren't enough Americans who put America first anymore to stand against communism.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 09, 2019, 12:30:49 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1102824
Socialism and liberalism were able to survive in the 1950s despite blacklists and repressive culture. In the long run, I don't think that suppression of thought works well. People develop an underground and the attempts at suppression reinforce their belief.


Modern technology changes everything.

In a digitally interconnected "smart" world, any underground "space" can be eliminated and those involved easily identified. China's "social media score" is already active and in the US, we've got SJWs and their tech giant allies using social media to paint any dissenters as "Nazis".

And who doesn't want to punch a Nazi?


Quote from: jhkim;1102824
To my view, the U.S. is increasingly polarized.


Thanks to demographics, that won't matter in decade or two. The Left controls the culture through the media and academia, and thus the Left controls the youth. The Left can't control the older generations, but only needs to wait for them to age out.

As always, demographics are destiny.


Quote from: jhkim;1102824
The hard right just as insistent that everyone is doomed, but from the opposite causes.


Western civilization and American values are doomed because those who needed to stand up and defend did nothing.

However, "everyone" is not doomed as the human race will bumble along, returning to its absolute favorite form of government of wealthy rulers lording over the ignorant masses.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 09, 2019, 10:32:30 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103040
Emphasis mine.
And yet here you are in a discussion about a known liar and abuser making serious accusations without any evidence and taking the side of the accuser.

You misunderstand me.

Previously you asked how many lives would be ruined by accusations without evidence.  Requiring evidence of wrong-doing is a generally unreasonable standard from your friends and loved ones.  To claim otherwise is ridiculous, and I was pointing that out.  

If my daughter comes home and tells me she was bullied, I am not going to demand evidence.  Testimony is worthwhile, even if it is, by itself, not enough to proceed.  

Effectively, my point can be boiled down to: Eye-witness testimony is evidence.  

Any form of evidence can mislead; there is no such thing as 'ironclad' evidence.  Even being caught 'red-handed' sometimes isn't what it looks like.

I don't think anyone here should be telling people that they shouldn't come forward with their stories of abuse without supporting evidence.  Sometimes, the first voice to come forward encourages other voices to come forward.  The bible seems to encourage exactly that:

Quote
On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but he shall not be executed on the testimony of a lone witness.

Note that it doesn't say 'on the testimony of two or three witnesses plus physical evidence independently confirmed by a neutral forensic team'.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2019, 11:37:43 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103038
You are right that making untrue accusations makes you an asshole.  But no, I'm not worried about someone accusing me of beating my wife and/or children.  I am not worried about spurious accusations ruining my life.  

I have certainly had people I know and trust about shady deeds done by someone they know better than I do.  As a reasonable person, I try to determine both whether the accusation is reasonable and whether the person making the accusation is trustworthy.  I absolutely do determine how I will engage with that person.  I absolutely will avoid people that I have credible testimony that they are not worth engaging with.

 
Quote
Emphasis mine.

And yet here you are in a discussion about a known liar and abuser making serious accusations without any evidence and taking the side of the accuser.

Yes I'm truly compelled to believe your assertions about you determining if the accusations is reasonable and the accuser trustworthy.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
You misunderstand me.  

Do I?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
Previously you asked how many lives would be ruined by accusations without evidence.  Requiring evidence of wrong-doing is a generally unreasonable standard from your friends and loved ones.  To claim otherwise is ridiculous, and I was pointing that out.  

If my daughter comes home and tells me she was bullied, I am not going to demand evidence.  Testimony is worthwhile, even if it is, by itself, not enough to proceed.  

Yes, trusting your loved ones is almost automatic, but like you say words by themselves are not enough to proceed, and we're talking not about going to your loved ones and telling them something bad happened to you are we? But I'm getting ahead of my self, lets proceed with the fisking.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
Effectively, my point can be boiled down to: Eye-witness testimony is evidence.  

The weakest form of evidence, especially after many years since memory can't be trusted.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
Any form of evidence can mislead; there is no such thing as 'ironclad' evidence.  Even being caught 'red-handed' sometimes isn't what it looks like.  

This is true, but physical evidence can't lie on purpose, it can be misinterpreted or given more weight than it should by humans, who by the way DO fucking lie all the time.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
I don't think anyone here should be telling people that they shouldn't come forward with their stories of abuse without supporting evidence.  Sometimes, the first voice to come forward encourages other voices to come forward.  

Are we telling that to anyone tho? Or are we saying go to the police and not to create lynch mobs? This is your second attempt at goalpost moving. Yes sometimes the first accuser can encourage others to come forward, and sometimes it can lead to a lynch mob against the innocent, but I guess that's a price you're willing to pay (as long as it isn't your ass being lynched I bet).

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
The bible seems to encourage exactly that:

Who cares what the Bible says? It also says to stone the adulterous and to marry the woman to her rapist. or are you only going to use it when it suits you as every socjus zealot?

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
Note that it doesn't say 'on the testimony of two or three witnesses plus physical evidence independently confirmed by a neutral forensic team'.

Again, who cares? We have laws, legal procedures, innocent until proven guilty, but you're gonna equivocate, lie, goal post move, and even quote the Bible if you can find a portion that suits you.

If you're advocating for a religious law then lets see you advocate for all the shitty ideas regarding law, crime and punishment contained in the Bible. If not then stop trying to convince me of anything using it, not gonna work.

Edited to correct: Replaced thrusting your loved ones with trusting :D
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 09, 2019, 11:53:11 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103119
Yes, thrusting your loved ones is almost automatic,

Well, that's a mental image...
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2019, 11:54:23 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103121
Well, that's a mental image...

LOL, remember I'm Mexican, English is my second language, editing it out.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Gagarth on September 09, 2019, 01:08:31 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1103089
In 2019, the US is learning all about de-platforming of dissenters. Voice the wrong opinion? Oops, no more Patreon, no more Uber, no more PayPal access. Maybe no more career?

No more Uber wtf? Not that Uber is human right or anything (never used it), but what the fuck is next?  No more fast food, no more Amazon, no more shopping at supermarkets, no more public transport?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Gagarth on September 09, 2019, 01:10:12 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103115
You misunderstand me.

Previously you asked how many lives would be ruined by accusations without evidence.  Requiring evidence of wrong-doing is a generally unreasonable standard from your friends and loved ones.  To claim otherwise is ridiculous, and I was pointing that out.  

If my daughter comes home and tells me she was bullied, I am not going to demand evidence.  Testimony is worthwhile, even if it is, by itself, not enough to proceed.  

Effectively, my point can be boiled down to: Eye-witness testimony is evidence.  

Any form of evidence can mislead; there is no such thing as 'ironclad' evidence.  Even being caught 'red-handed' sometimes isn't what it looks like.

I don't think anyone here should be telling people that they shouldn't come forward with their stories of abuse without supporting evidence.  Sometimes, the first voice to come forward encourages other voices to come forward.  The bible seems to encourage exactly that:



Note that it doesn't say 'on the testimony of two or three witnesses plus physical evidence independently confirmed by a neutral forensic team'.

deadDMwalking touched my pee-pee cancel him.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2019, 01:25:01 PM
Quote from: Gagarth;1103131
No more Uber wtf? Not that Uber is human right or anything (never used it), but what the fuck is next?  No more fast food, no more Amazon, no more shopping at supermarkets, no more public transport?

If Facebook manages to make their cryptocurrency and manage to make it be widely used? Yes, you're fucked if you ever made a joke or you dare to deviate one inch from what they consider morally acceptable in that moment (you don't know the rules and they are ever changing) even if you said it 20 years ago.

And if cancel culture doesn't go the way of the dodo? Then combine it and you're fucked by spurious unsubstantiated accusations too.

The future deadDMwalking and co. wish we were living at right now.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 09, 2019, 01:51:56 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1103089
In 2016, the DNC's runner up candidate was Bernie Sanders who tempered his socialist message in populism. In 2020, the DNC is running multiple candidates with communist-lite platforms and our media celebrates them. Why would 2024 or 2028 not be a progression from here?

Communism has become disturbingly popular with Millennials and GenZ under the lovely false moniker of "socialism", and unfortunately they do not value freedom of speech. They, not us, are the future of US voters. Thus, even if Trump wins in 2020, they will demand DNC candidates in 2024 and 2028 to be even more strident than the current clown car.  

America 2019 is most definitely Hong Kong 1989. The vast majority of HK believed China's takeover wouldn't change their daily lives. Being fearful of communism repression was "paranoid bullshit" because HK was just too valuable.

However, in 1989 China showed us how it deals with dissenters.

In 2019, the US is learning all about de-platforming of dissenters. Voice the wrong opinion? Oops, no more Patreon, no more Uber, no more PayPal access. Maybe no more career?

De-platforming will increase in the future, especially as Silicon Valley continuously invades our lives more every day as we voluntarily surrender our data, our freedom and our thoughts to our "smart" devices.  
 



If America was going to save itself, the answer was to stomp all anti-American indoctrination in our public schools or publicly owned media. But that ship sailed a long time ago.  

Instead, we used our own tax dollars to poison our own children.

The US culture which rejected communism in the past does not exist today...thanks to the destruction of our education systems and subversion of our media.

Simply put, there aren't enough Americans who put America first anymore to stand against communism.

So, no civil war, just resign to apathy? Seems to me there were enough Americans to get Trump elected, despite his ridiculous behavior.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Brad on September 09, 2019, 02:49:08 PM
Quote from: Trond;1103137
So, no civil war, just resign to apathy? Seems to me there were enough Americans to get Trump elected, despite his ridiculous behavior.

Define "ridiculous".
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Shasarak on September 09, 2019, 04:01:43 PM
Quote from: Brad;1103147
Define "ridiculous".

Orange man bad.


Sorry could not help it.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 09, 2019, 04:31:12 PM
Quote from: Trond;1103137
So, no civil war, just resign to apathy? Seems to me there were enough Americans to get Trump elected, despite his ridiculous behavior.


Hate to think I've been doing all this stockpiling for nothing.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Omega on September 09, 2019, 04:41:42 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1102902
And will keep redefining what the Right is until only one exits the Culture Thunderdome.


And then these sociopaths will look in the mirror. See a monster. And kill themselves. Because once you have killed all the monsters. Theres only one left to get rid of.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 09, 2019, 06:25:31 PM
Quote from: Brad;1103147
Define "ridiculous".

Examples: I don't find his "locker room talk" to be evidence of sexual assault, but I do find it ridiculous. I also think that his claim that he "reads the bible more than anyone" is ridiculous. His asking for Obamas birth certificate was a ridiculous waste of time. Maybe the idea that we should nuke hurricanes too, if true (and I wouldn't be surprised if it is true)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 09, 2019, 06:51:15 PM
I'm happy to discourage rumor-mongering, gossip, and lynch mobs. It's a frequent annoyance of mine. It should apply equally among all political sides, though.

Quote from: deadDMwalking
I don't think anyone here should be telling people that they shouldn't come forward with their stories of abuse without supporting evidence. Sometimes, the first voice to come forward encourages other voices to come forward.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103119
Are we telling that to anyone tho? Or are we saying go to the police and not to create lynch mobs? This is your second attempt at goalpost moving. Yes sometimes the first accuser can encourage others to come forward, and sometimes it can lead to a lynch mob against the innocent, but I guess that's a price you're willing to pay (as long as it isn't your ass being lynched I bet).

The converse of this is that sometimes the guilty won't be called out publicly. For example, Zoe Quinn was cited in the OP, and she had a bunch of accusations made publicly against her by Eron Gjoni a few years ago - which is the main reason why her name is at all recognizable. Should Gjoni have gone to court rather than just publicly airing his accusations for public opinion? For another case, what about Jeremy Hambly, who went public with his accusation of being assaulted by Matt Loter?

In general, I'd prefer that accusations from any side be more heavily filtered -- but I think that applies more to media and gossip than to the direct people affected. If someone was assaulted, I don't think it's right to say that they should stay quiet and only tell the police about it. I think it's reasonable to speak publicly about it. I have more of a problem with people who share an accusation when they don't know for sure if it is true or not.


Quote from: deadDMwalking
Any form of evidence can mislead; there is no such thing as 'ironclad' evidence. Even being caught 'red-handed' sometimes isn't what it looks like.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103119
This is true, but physical evidence can't lie on purpose, it can be misinterpreted or given more weight than it should by humans, who by the way DO fucking lie all the time.

Physical evidence can be falsified by deliberate human action, though, which is exactly the equivalent of lying. In my experience, the public and jurors are used to the idea of people lying, whereas they often have false faith in physical evidence -- in part because of fictional shows like Bones and CSI. In real-world court cases, it is almost impossible to convict solely based on physical evidence.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: danskmacabre on September 09, 2019, 07:20:20 PM
Quote from: Omega;1103161
And then these sociopaths will look in the mirror. See a monster. And kill themselves. Because once you have killed all the monsters. Theres only one left to get rid of.

HaHa!  This made me lol, but there's truth in that statement!
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 09, 2019, 07:22:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103176
The converse of this is that sometimes the guilty won't be called out publicly. For example, Zoe Quinn was cited in the OP, and she had a bunch of accusations made publicly against her by Eron Gjoni a few years ago - which is the main reason why her name is at all recognizable. Should Gjoni have gone to court rather than just publicly airing his accusations for public opinion? For another case, what about Jeremy Hambly, who went public with his accusation of being assaulted by Matt Loter?

Gjoni's accusations fall under the umbrella of gossip. Nothing (that I recall) was actually illegal, just unsavory. And I still consider it a he-said, she-said situation on his part.
The main reason her name is recognizable is how the internet-sphere journalists all circled the wagons to protect Quinn, and presented a unified effort to ban the gossip surrounding them.
Hambly was the victim of a straight up assault, and he made his video in addition to filing suit against Loter. A bit of a different situation.

Quote
In general, I'd prefer that accusations from any side be more heavily filtered -- but I think that applies more to media and gossip than to the direct people affected. If someone was assaulted, I don't think it's right to say that they should stay quiet and only tell the police about it. I think it's reasonable to speak publicly about it. I have more of a problem with people who share an accusation when they don't know for sure if it is true or not.

Maybe, but we should be aware that false accusations of assault can lead to revenge assault and potentially murder.

https://floridaactioncommittee.org/false-accusation-of-sexual-assault-leads-to-murder/
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 09, 2019, 08:28:59 PM
Quote from: jhkim
The converse of this is that sometimes the guilty won't be called out publicly. For example, Zoe Quinn was cited in the OP, and she had a bunch of accusations made publicly against her by Eron Gjoni a few years ago - which is the main reason why her name is at all recognizable. Should Gjoni have gone to court rather than just publicly airing his accusations for public opinion? For another case, what about Jeremy Hambly, who went public with his accusation of being assaulted by Matt Loter?
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103182
Gjoni's accusations fall under the umbrella of gossip. Nothing (that I recall) was actually illegal, just unsavory. And I still consider it a he-said, she-said situation on his part.
The main reason her name is recognizable is how the internet-sphere journalists all circled the wagons to protect Quinn, and presented a unified effort to ban the gossip surrounding them.
Hambly was the victim of a straight up assault, and he made his video in addition to filing suit against Loter. A bit of a different situation.
I agree that they are different situations - but they're both examples of widely shared public accusations which generated a lot of attention. Of course, there are hundreds of other public accusations including Quinn's accusations against Alec Holowka, which was in the OP.

Personally, I would want to see much less of this sort of gossip. I don't think it can or should be banned, but it shouldn't be given the traffic and importance that it currently has. I'd much prefer if political clashes were more about issues and policy, and less about personal allegations.

Quote from: jhkim
In general, I'd prefer that accusations from any side be more heavily filtered -- but I think that applies more to media and gossip than to the direct people affected. If someone was assaulted, I don't think it's right to say that they should stay quiet and only tell the police about it. I think it's reasonable to speak publicly about it. I have more of a problem with people who share an accusation when they don't know for sure if it is true or not.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103182
Maybe, but we should be aware that false accusations of assault can lead to revenge assault and potentially murder.

https://floridaactioncommittee.org/false-accusation-of-sexual-assault-leads-to-murder/

Obviously, false accusations are wrong. They should be investigated and prosecuted. But as I said, I don't begrudge someone like Hambly speaking out about their being assaulted. He has a right to say what happened to him. But I think there is a tendency for people to want direct revenge when accusations like this are aired, which is the problem you're talking about.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Gagarth on September 09, 2019, 08:36:53 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103176
For another case, what about Jeremy Hambly, who went public with his accusation of being assaulted by Matt Loter?
.
You are an idiot Hambly took legal action.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Gagarth on September 09, 2019, 08:51:58 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103188
I agree that they are different situations - but they're both examples of widely shared public accusations which generated a lot of attention. Of course, there are hundreds of other public accusations including Quinn's accusations against Alec Holowka, which was in the OP.
.

Of course when a women is accused  she gains publicity and money and when she is makes an  accusation against a man she gains publicity and money and he ends up dead. That is some culture you, your buddy deadDMwalking and others like you have created.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2019, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103176
I'm happy to discourage rumor-mongering, gossip, and lynch mobs. It's a frequent annoyance of mine. It should apply equally among all political sides, though.


Agreed

Quote from: jhkim;1103176
The converse of this is that sometimes the guilty won't be called out publicly. For example, Zoe Quinn was cited in the OP, and she had a bunch of accusations made publicly against her by Eron Gjoni a few years ago - which is the main reason why her name is at all recognizable. Should Gjoni have gone to court rather than just publicly airing his accusations for public opinion? For another case, what about Jeremy Hambly, who went public with his accusation of being assaulted by Matt Loter?


Regarding Eron, it would have stayed as a lovers quarrel hadn't it been for the incestuous corruption in the gaming press it exposed. If LW abused him or not? People have come out to say she's a shitty person, among them 2 women.

Hambly (the fauxtrage farmer) went public and went to the police, the court and the accused settled, besides there were material witnesses.

Quote from: jhkim;1103176
In general, I'd prefer that accusations from any side be more heavily filtered -- but I think that applies more to media and gossip than to the direct people affected. If someone was assaulted, I don't think it's right to say that they should stay quiet and only tell the police about it. I think it's reasonable to speak publicly about it. I have more of a problem with people who share an accusation when they don't know for sure if it is true or not.


Are you dumb? Don't you know why they share it publicly and don't go to the police? To incite a lynch mob and garner pity and money. And, since nobody can know if an acusation is real the better course of action should be the "victim" stayed quiet unless they had any evidence.

Should I list all the lynch mobs instigated that were proven to be based on lies? Rolling Stone anyone?


Quote from: jhkim;1103176
Physical evidence can be falsified by deliberate human action, though, which is exactly the equivalent of lying. In my experience, the public and jurors are used to the idea of people lying, whereas they often have false faith in physical evidence -- in part because of fictional shows like Bones and CSI. In real-world court cases, it is almost impossible to convict solely based on physical evidence.


People lie, all the time, to falsify evidence and have the police swallow it you must be on another level. Or is the police doing the falsifying?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2019, 09:06:37 PM
Why won't you believe the victim!?

Because I'm not a gullible idiot who is ruled by his feelings?

Seems miss LW is lying once again:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/exclusive-zoe-quinns-allegations-are-falling-apart/
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jeff37923 on September 09, 2019, 10:11:02 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103188
I agree that they are different situations - but they're both examples of widely shared public accusations which generated a lot of attention.


Except Zoe Quinn's was false and Hambly's was true. Big difference there.




Quote from: jhkim;1103188
Obviously, false accusations are wrong. They should be investigated and prosecuted. But as I said, I don't begrudge someone like Hambly speaking out about their being assaulted. He has a right to say what happened to him. But I think there is a tendency for people to want direct revenge when accusations like this are aired, which is the problem you're talking about.


My doublespeak filter just overloaded.

So, you do not begrudge someone making a public accusation when it is true and you believe that a false public accusation is wrong, but you support Zoe Quinn's actions (even though she has repeatedly made false public accusations against those she does not like).

What. The. Fuck.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 09, 2019, 10:12:34 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103188
I agree that they are different situations - but they're both examples of widely shared public accusations which generated a lot of attention. Of course, there are hundreds of other public accusations including Quinn's accusations against Alec Holowka, which was in the OP.


Hambly was maybe famous to some MTG players and forum goes who like to talk about the culture war.

Quinn went to the the FUCKING UNITED NATIONS with Anita Sarkeesian to talk about her so-called "harassment".

Comparing them is like saying a ping pong ball is like the Death Star because both are round.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2019, 10:25:55 PM
Not sure how much weight one can put on this so take it with a huge grain of salt. http://is2.4chan.org/pol/1567637668056.jpg (http://is2.4chan.org/pol/1567637668056.jpg)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 09, 2019, 10:32:34 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1103198
Except Zoe Quinn's was false and Hambly's was true. Big difference there.
I'm not taking a stand on the truth or falseness of any of these allegations. I'm expressing opposition to the idea that Internet public opinion is the way to judge these things.


Quote from: jeff37923;1103198
So, you do not begrudge someone making a public accusation when it is true and you believe that a false public accusation is wrong, but you support Zoe Quinn's actions (even though she has repeatedly made false public accusations against those she does not like).

What. The. Fuck.
I have never said anything about supporting Zoe Quinn's actions. I'm not even sure which actions you're talking about.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2019, 10:50:27 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103203
I'm not taking a stand on the truth or falseness of any of these allegations. I'm expressing opposition to the idea that Internet public opinion is the way to judge these things.



I have never said anything about supporting Zoe Quinn's actions. I'm not even sure which actions you're talking about.

Do you know what's the sure fire way to prevent the court of public opinion? Demand the people stop going public on social media with zero evidence. Notice how I say people and not one or the other side? Because my position isn't a partisan one.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Snowman0147 on September 09, 2019, 10:51:09 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103203
I'm not taking a stand on the truth or falseness of any of these allegations. I'm expressing opposition to the idea that Internet public opinion is the way to judge these things.

WTF?  That is the WHOLE FUCKING POINT that Hambly was bitching about.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 10, 2019, 12:00:40 AM
Not surprisingly, Zoe Quinn's story and accusations are full of holes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scaehIi39T8
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 10, 2019, 01:10:33 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1103176
I'm happy to discourage rumor-mongering, gossip, and lynch mobs. It's a frequent annoyance of mine. It should apply equally among all political sides, though.



The converse of this is that sometimes the guilty won't be called out publicly. For example, Zoe Quinn was cited in the OP, and she had a bunch of accusations made publicly against her by Eron Gjoni a few years ago - which is the main reason why her name is at all recognizable. Should Gjoni have gone to court rather than just publicly airing his accusations for public opinion? For another case, what about Jeremy Hambly, who went public with his accusation of being assaulted by Matt Loter?

In general, I'd prefer that accusations from any side be more heavily filtered -- but I think that applies more to media and gossip than to the direct people affected. If someone was assaulted, I don't think it's right to say that they should stay quiet and only tell the police about it. I think it's reasonable to speak publicly about it. I have more of a problem with people who share an accusation when they don't know for sure if it is true or not.




Physical evidence can be falsified by deliberate human action, though, which is exactly the equivalent of lying. In my experience, the public and jurors are used to the idea of people lying, whereas they often have false faith in physical evidence -- in part because of fictional shows like Bones and CSI. In real-world court cases, it is almost impossible to convict solely based on physical evidence.


Fun fact, Eron's hit piece was originally posted on a private section of Something Awful that he and Quinn were a part of, to call her out amongst her friends. It wasn't for the whole of the internet to see.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 10, 2019, 02:04:57 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103204
Do you know what's the sure fire way to prevent the court of public opinion? Demand the people stop going public on social media with zero evidence. Notice how I say people and not one or the other side? Because my position isn't a partisan one.
If you think it's not a partisan issue, can you cite some examples from both sides of such accusations?

Where we differ is in the blame. If someone genuinely had a guy come up and punch him in the head repeatedly, I don't think it's appropriate to tell them to be silent and not tell anyone except the police about it. If I was punched in the head, you can damn well expect I'd tell people about it. The problem is in every such accusation being shared as fact and made a center of attention - particularly if it fits one's political views. That makes it particularly attractive for people to lie.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1103216
Fun fact, Eron's hit piece was originally posted on a private section of Something Awful that he and Quinn were a part of, to call her out amongst her friends. It wasn't for the whole of the internet to see.
Well, I think that fits with my view, seeing the problem in those sharing the accusation more than the accusations themselves. (It doesn't take much for me to think ill of Something Awful.)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 02:17:31 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1103221
If you think it's not a partisan issue, can you cite some examples from both sides of such accusations?

Where we differ is in the blame. If someone genuinely had a guy come up and punch him in the head repeatedly, I don't think it's appropriate to tell them to be silent and not tell anyone except the police about it. If I was punched in the head, you can damn well expect I'd tell people about it. The problem is in every such accusation being shared as fact and made a center of attention - particularly if it fits one's political views. That makes it particularly attractive for people to lie.


LOL no, It's not partisan in my case, what others do is their fucking problem not mine, but since you brought it up, can you?

I mean multiple examples of the exact same shit the socjus cult under the mootoo have been doing? Being done by the right?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 10, 2019, 03:16:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim
If you think it's not a partisan issue, can you cite some examples from both sides of such accusations?
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103224
LOL no, It's not partisan in my case, what others do is their fucking problem not mine, but since you brought it up, can you?

I mean multiple examples of the exact same shit the socjus cult under the mootoo have been doing? Being done by the right?
Unsupported accusations put to the court of public opinion? I think they're pretty common these days on both sides.

Politicians are swamped in all the accusations against them -- Trump is guilty of pretty much everything under the sun, while on the other hand the Right says the same about Clinton, along with AOC and others. In the Kavanaugh hearings, as far as I could tell, nearly everyone's opinion about the assault allegations was determined by what political side they were on.

Heck, just recently we were arguing over teenage George Soros supposedly being a Nazi collaborator. I consider that an unproven allegation put to the court of public opinion.

In the wider landscape, there are claims ranging from unproven allegations of human trafficking out of a pizza parlor, to Gjoni's unproven accusations against Quinn.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Snowman0147 on September 10, 2019, 03:55:20 AM
A few questions jhkim.  Why are you such a weasel little shit?  Why are you still lying when you know we are not buying into it?  Most important what do you gain from all this bullshit?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 04:07:01 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1103230
Unsupported accusations put to the court of public opinion? I think they're pretty common these days on both sides.

Politicians are swamped in all the accusations against them -- Trump is guilty of pretty much everything under the sun, while on the other hand the Right says the same about Clinton, along with AOC and others. In the Kavanaugh hearings, as far as I could tell, nearly everyone's opinion about the assault allegations was determined by what political side they were on.

Heck, just recently we were arguing over teenage George Soros supposedly being a Nazi collaborator. I consider that an unproven allegation put to the court of public opinion.

In the wider landscape, there are claims ranging from unproven allegations of human trafficking out of a pizza parlor, to Gjoni's unproven accusations against Quinn.

So all of those are just the same as ruining the life (or driving to suicide) and innocent by lynch mob?

Because we are talking about that, not about politicians but the common folk. And you can't show a single example of that being done by anyone but the left, can you?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jeff37923 on September 10, 2019, 04:27:23 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1103221
If I was punched in the head, you can damn well expect I'd tell people about it.

That's a lie! I've punched you in the head several times and you haven't told anyone! :p
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 10, 2019, 05:10:53 AM
I'm not seeing where jhkim is out of line. Correct me if I'm wrong, but jhkim is saying he's against unfounded accusations, but supports people expressing themselves about something they claim happened to them. Am I missing something?

My stance on this trial-by-internet is simple. You have freedom of speech to say what you want. However, an unfounded accusation that harms someone else should be punished under the law. If your accusation is challenged, and you have no evidence to support your accusation, you should get hammered by the court and forced to pay restitution. Libel and slander are against the law for a reason.


Quote from: Gagarth;1103131
No more Uber wtf? Not that Uber is human right or anything (never used it), but what the fuck is next?  No more fast food, no more Amazon, no more shopping at supermarkets, no more public transport?


Laura Loomer was banned by Uber and Lyft because of her tweets. AKA, color inside the lines or no cab for you!
https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/1/16596256/uber-bans-right-wing-activist-laura-loomer-anti-islamic-tweets


Quote from: Trond;1103137
So, no civil war, just resign to apathy? Seems to me there were enough Americans to get Trump elected, despite his ridiculous behavior.


Trump is the last hurrah, and he only won because Hillary was a disaster candidate and the MSM couldn't conceive of his victory so they treated him like a joke candidate which only hardened his supporters.

Trump's behavior isn't an issue to his supporters because its not about Trump the Human, but Trump the Icon. He represents the last stand and to many, their last hope, regardless of whoever he might actually be. If Trump wins in 2020, it happen because the DNC again backed the wrong horse and the MSM oversteps to energize backlash at the polls.

The future of the USA still might hold a civil uprising, and perhaps enough to fracture the nation, but I doubt there's enough vitality left in enough Americans. The moment when traditional America could have been saved from its dismal future has passed. Real rebellion isn't shitposting memes, it requires sacrificing everything for ideals.

It's not resignation to apathy. It's recognition of the timeline of demographics changes, the overwhelming success by the Left to subvert generations of children and our culture's gleeful submission to the technological ascendancy of digital overlords.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 10, 2019, 05:31:16 AM
Quote from: Omega;1103161
And then these sociopaths will look in the mirror. See a monster. And kill themselves. Because once you have killed all the monsters. Theres only one left to get rid of.

If only they'd cut out the middleman.

And by the way, it is a partisan issue, not in principle but in practice. The number of false allegations coming from the left are far more numerous (particularly in high profile instances) than anything from the right. Just off the top of my head... Jussie Smollette, Christine Blaise Ford and the other Kavanaugh accusers that recanted their accusations after they were put under scrutiny, Nicholas Sandman, Creepy Porn Lawyer and his client. It's even coming out now that HRC paid women to make accusations against Trump. Lest we not forget Clarence Thomas, and more poignantly .... MUH RUSSIAN COLLUSION. In my experience, the left are shameless, inveterate liars with no compunction against ruining lives for a lark... it is much rarer for this to come from the right. Does it happen from the right? Of course, but I cannot think of any such case of such import in recent memory coming from the right. The thing to be wary of, is that it will increase from the right. Because any weapon your opponent uses on you will ultimately be used on them. It is a horrible precedent.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 10, 2019, 09:37:55 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1103243
The number of false allegations coming from the left are far more numerous (particularly in high profile instances) than anything from the right.

Followed by a list of unsubstantiated allegations.  Irony, anyone?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 10, 2019, 09:46:53 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1103240
I'm not seeing where jhkim is out of line. Correct me if I'm wrong, but jhkim is saying he's against unfounded accusations, but supports people expressing themselves about something they claim happened to them. Am I missing something?

My stance on this trial-by-internet is simple. You have freedom of speech to say what you want. However, an unfounded accusation that harms someone else should be punished under the law. If your accusation is challenged, and you have no evidence to support your accusation, you should get hammered by the court and forced to pay restitution. Libel and slander are against the law for a reason.




Laura Loomer was banned by Uber and Lyft because of her tweets. AKA, color inside the lines or no cab for you!
https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/1/16596256/uber-bans-right-wing-activist-laura-loomer-anti-islamic-tweets




Trump is the last hurrah, and he only won because Hillary was a disaster candidate and the MSM couldn't conceive of his victory so they treated him like a joke candidate which only hardened his supporters.

Trump's behavior isn't an issue to his supporters because its not about Trump the Human, but Trump the Icon. He represents the last stand and to many, their last hope, regardless of whoever he might actually be. If Trump wins in 2020, it happen because the DNC again backed the wrong horse and the MSM oversteps to energize backlash at the polls.

The future of the USA still might hold a civil uprising, and perhaps enough to fracture the nation, but I doubt there's enough vitality left in enough Americans. The moment when traditional America could have been saved from its dismal future has passed. Real rebellion isn't shitposting memes, it requires sacrificing everything for ideals.

It's not resignation to apathy. It's recognition of the timeline of demographics changes, the overwhelming success by the Left to subvert generations of children and our culture's gleeful submission to the technological ascendancy of digital overlords.

Sorry, I don't see it. As I said, there's no need for over-the-top revolutionary alarm when the democracy is still working (as mentioned I have seen it before, in other countries). People's purported ability to see what's coming next has never really impressed me, so who knows what tomorrow will bring? Many children are capable of taken certain things with a grain of salt. If anybody stages a "march on Washington" at this point (left or right), they would be in the wrong and should be put in jail.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on September 10, 2019, 11:06:13 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1103221
It doesn't take much for me to think ill of Something Awful.

Well, you are a human being with some degree of empathy and sense.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 11:44:14 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103267
Followed by a list of unsubstantiated allegations.  Irony, anyone?


So Jussie totally was assaulted by maga country racists, CBF totally was raped by Kavanaugh (she just didn't know where, when, how she got there or how she got back), The maga kids totally were harassing the poor black israelites and the brave redskin veteran was trying to prevent violence and was cruelly assaulted by smug smiles, el Trompas didn't had the porn actress pay him in court and her lawyer isn't a crook, and the Russia! narrative totally wasn't a lie right?

Like someone wiser than me once said: "Better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove any doubt"

You're not convincing anyone of anything other than your cognitive abilities were severely impacted by TDS.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 10, 2019, 12:11:17 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103286
So Jussie totally was assaulted by maga country racists, ......

Juicy Smoliet still makes me chuckle  :D
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Gagarth on September 10, 2019, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103230
Unsupported accusations put to the court of public opinion? I think they're pretty common these days on both sides.

Politicians are swamped in all the accusations against them -- Trump is guilty of pretty much everything under the sun, while on the other hand the Right says the same about Clinton, along with AOC and others. In the Kavanaugh hearings, as far as I could tell, nearly everyone's opinion about the assault allegations was determined by what political side they were on.

Heck, just recently we were arguing over teenage George Soros supposedly being a Nazi collaborator. I consider that an unproven allegation put to the court of public opinion.

In the wider landscape, there are claims ranging from unproven allegations of human trafficking out of a pizza parlor, to Gjoni's unproven accusations against Quinn.

There is a big difference between political muddslinging and the sort of people who get cancelled by the people you support.  Quinn has benefited from the accusations against her and the rest like Asia Argento get a pass  or a slap on the wrist like James Gunn.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 10, 2019, 04:09:27 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103235
So all of those are just the same as ruining the life (or driving to suicide) and innocent by lynch mob?

Because we are talking about that, not about politicians but the common folk. And you can't show a single example of that being done by anyone but the left, can you?

Most of my examples were not politicians. James Alefantis and others who worked at his pizzeria were not politicians and were innocent of any human trafficking, but were still targeted and shot at on the basis of those accusations, say.


Quote from: Spinachcat;1103240
I'm not seeing where jhkim is out of line. Correct me if I'm wrong, but jhkim is saying he's against unfounded accusations, but supports people expressing themselves about something they claim happened to them. Am I missing something?

My stance on this trial-by-internet is simple. You have freedom of speech to say what you want. However, an unfounded accusation that harms someone else should be punished under the law. If your accusation is challenged, and you have no evidence to support your accusation, you should get hammered by the court and forced to pay restitution. Libel and slander are against the law for a reason.

Thanks, Spinachcat. I agree that false accusations should absolutely be investigated and prosecuted where possible. The thing is, in a lot of cases, someone may be guilty but it can't be proven in court that they are guilty. Conversely, someone might make a false accusation, but it can't be proven that they are guilty of lying. This happens a lot.

The problem is that most people instantly jump to deciding whether or not someone is guilty -- often on the basis of politics. That's true whether they're accused of assault and battery, embezzlement, rape, or filing false charges. What people really should be doing more of is not trying to be judge and jury for every public accusation.

For the vast majority of these sort of accusations, I have no opinion. I feel that engaging in it is largely muckraking. I don't know and I don't need to know what James Gunn or whoever is guilty of. I'll support official investigation of whatever it is, but I don't need to know right now.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 04:28:58 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103341
Most of my examples were not politicians. James Alefantis and others who worked at his pizzeria were not politicians and were innocent of any human trafficking, but were still targeted and shot at on the basis of those accusations, say.

 Oh really? Lets see:

Quote from: jhkim;1103230
Unsupported accusations put to the court of public opinion? I think they're pretty common these days on both sides.

Politicians are swamped in all the accusations against them -- Trump is guilty of pretty much everything under the sun, while on the other hand the Right says the same about Clinton, along with AOC and others. In the Kavanaugh hearings, as far as I could tell, nearly everyone's opinion about the assault allegations was determined by what political side they were on.

Heck, just recently we were arguing over teenage George Soros supposedly being a Nazi collaborator. I consider that an unproven allegation put to the court of public opinion.

In the wider landscape, there are claims ranging from unproven allegations of human trafficking out of a pizza parlor, to Gjoni's unproven accusations against Quinn.


Lets tally up the politicians shall we?

Trump, both Clintons, Occasional Cortex and her clan of cunts, Kavanaugh while not a politician was aspiring to a public charge and was smeared by politicians.

So that's what? 8?

Now lets tally the non politicians

Pizza gate, Quinn and I'll even give you Soros even when he spends millions trying to change the politics of lots of countries to line his pockets and I proved he was a fucking nazi collaborator.

So that's 3

If I was feeling generous I would give you Kavanaugh and you would still be lying when you say most of your examples weren't politicians.

Fact is you can't find any example of people doing to leftist cunts like Quinn what she and others have done.

So you have to spin and lie and hope nobody will notice.

It's not my fault the American left got co-opted by the loons, and it's not my fault people like you still try to run defense for them.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 04:40:56 PM
Now lets see, of all your examples:

Kavanaugh, victim of a leftist lynch-mob under false allegations
-
Clinton. Demanding she be treated as anybody else who did what she did (hell half of what she did) with classified documents is not a lynch-mob and those aren't unfounded allegations.

Occasional Cortex and the gaggle of cunts. Have been criticized for things they said/did, no lynch-mob and no unfounded accusations.

Quinn, not the victim of a lynch-mob, not unfounded accusations.

Pizza gate victims of a loon.

Soros, not the victim of a lynch-mob, not unfounded accusations.

And of all of them, who had his/her life/reputation ruined? Kavanaugh and the guys from pizza gate.

And regarding pizza gate guess we're not gonna talk about pedo island, it's recently suicided owner and all the political and economical powerful people involved in visits to his palace of perversion and evil are we?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 10, 2019, 04:41:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103345
Fact is you can't find any example of people doing to leftist cunts like Quinn what she and others have done.

So you have to spin and lie and hope nobody will notice.

It's not my fault the American left got co-opted by the loons, and it's not my fault people like you still try to run defense for them.
OK, fair enough that I did list more politicians than non-politicians. My bad on that.

But conversely, I did cite multiple examples of non-politicians being publicly accused and attacked from right-wing sources -- which is contrary to your assertion that there are no examples of right-wing public accusations.

If you don't accept the Pizzagate example, then I can cite Dean Obeidallah -- falsely accused of terrorism who successfully sued his accusers -- or Mohamed Zayan -- falsely accused of attempted kidnapping.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: tenbones on September 10, 2019, 05:23:07 PM
It weirds me out that people actually support Quinn via Patreon *before* this shitshow even happened.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 05:44:27 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103348
OK, fair enough that I did list more politicians than non-politicians. My bad on that.

But conversely, I did cite multiple examples of non-politicians being publicly accused and attacked from right-wing sources -- which is contrary to your assertion that there are no examples of right-wing public accusations.

If you don't accept the Pizzagate example, then I can cite Dean Obeidallah -- falsely accused of terrorism who successfully sued his accusers -- or Mohamed Zayan -- falsely accused of attempted kidnapping.

Lynch-mobs?

Well, lets forget about the lynch mob, lets focus on the public accusations, wanna risk a tally? Total number of accusations and total number of lives ruined suicides?

Dean Obeidallah defamed by the daily stormer, who won a lawsuit against them, so not "the right" but teh nazis. And his life wasn't ruined, he's still making millions. And seems to be in good relations with CAIR...

Mohamed Zayan accused to the police!, cleared of charges and his accuser arrested. ... Not so sure this is similar to Quinn driving a man to suicide by lynch-mob. And again, this woman might be republican or not (don't care) but since she went to the police this isn't the same, and I somehow doubt his life was ruined by it either.

But, lets say that both sides do exactly the same at the same rate.

You still think it's a good idea not to demand people stop doing it?

Because our current discussion began when I said exactly that, people should stop making public accusations and go to the police!

If both sides do it then it's even more urgent to make people stop doing it!

Now come and tell me again how my demand that PEOPLE stop doing this is somehow partisan!
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 10, 2019, 06:32:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103361
But, lets say that both sides do exactly the same at the same rate.

You still think it's a good idea not to demand people stop doing it?

Because our current discussion began when I said exactly that, people should stop making public accusations and go to the police!

If both sides do it then it's even more urgent to make people stop doing it!

Now come and tell me again how my demand that PEOPLE stop doing this is somehow partisan!
Can we clarify the disagreement? Obviously, I am opposed to people making false accusations, and I think they should be investigated and prosecuted.

The issue rather is instead what to do if it's the truth. Say someone comes and punches me in the head repeatedly -- like jeff37923 did :D. Are you saying that I should tell the police what happened, but stay silent publicly? No, I don't agree with that. If someone is the actual victim of a crime, no, I don't expect them to stay silent about it. That seems like an unreasonable standard. Even if actual victims were to act this way -- and there's no reason they should -- that wouldn't stop unethical people from lying.

The problem isn't with real victims speaking the truth. The problem is with people *lying*, and with other people instantly believing their lie and acting without proof.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 06:56:28 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103371
Can we clarify the disagreement? Obviously, I am opposed to people making false accusations, and I think they should be investigated and prosecuted.

The issue rather is instead what to do if it's the truth. Say someone comes and punches me in the head repeatedly -- like jeff37923 did :D. Are you saying that I should tell the police what happened, but stay silent publicly? No, I don't agree with that. If someone is the actual victim of a crime, no, I don't expect them to stay silent about it. That seems like an unreasonable standard. Even if actual victims were to act this way -- and there's no reason they should -- that wouldn't stop unethical people from lying.

The problem isn't with real victims speaking the truth. The problem is with people *lying*, and with other people instantly believing their lie and acting without proof.

First off "victims"

Now, the issue (and I suspect you know it and are playing dumb) is that the lynch-mob has almost never been incited by anything reported to the police. So this is the first problem I have with anyone trying to defend what ZQ and co. do.

Second, once an accusation goes viral you have no chance to ever clean your reputation. Doesn't mind if the accusations is a lie (implies intent) or just an erroneous identification.

Pathos driven people always say we should think of the victims, fine lets do so.

The lynch-mob has already a death count of 4 that I know of and countless lives/reputations ruined.

So, IMHO, the "offender's" name should be kept a secret until a guilty verdict is given. It's the only way to ensure no more victims of the lynch-mob.

Therefore you shouldn't be allowed to "go public" at anytime prior to that. Violating this should carry the same sentence as the crime you're claiming person X committed.

So, as I have already demonstrated even "actual victims" should be made to follow this law, because erroneous identifications occur and because you have no way to determine if someone is an "actual victim" prior to an investigation. (sometimes not even after).

Better for 10 guilty people to go free than for 1 innocent suffer unjustly.

That is not only a good idea, but the founding principle of your legal system (and any sane and just legal system).

Now come and argue how allowing the "actual victims" to go public isn't gonna end in fake ones doing so just to fuck someone over.

Sadly, until this phenomenon starts hurting 1 woman for every 3 men society at large will not give a fuck.

Because the headline was : 1/4 of homeless are women. Broke men are hurting women's marrying prospects, etc.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 10, 2019, 07:02:36 PM
I'll take this as evidence that Jeff actually did attack Jhkim. Quick! Start a shit-storm now! I think you can even make an argument that they are of different race, so here goes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1D4Xz-3YE4
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Snowman0147 on September 10, 2019, 07:36:48 PM
Wait four people died to these fuckers?  Who were the other three?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 07:51:19 PM
Quote from: Snowman0147;1103389
Wait four people died to these fuckers?  Who were the other three?

Sorry, it's more now. Argentinian teen and a year latter his mom (sister has now suicidal thoughts too), Mexican singer, and the developer adds up to 4, but I didn't know about this other victims.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/08/03/the-metoo-suicides/ (https://www.spiked-online.com/2018/08/03/the-metoo-suicides/)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 10, 2019, 07:54:52 PM
The Argentinian teen  (https://larepublica.pe/mundo/1385277-argentina-adolescente-suicido-falsa-denuncia-violacion-mejor-amiga-mira-ponemos-metoo/)

The Mexican Singer (https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2019/04/04/metoomusicosmexicanos-cierra-su-cuenta-tras-el-suicidio-de-armando-vega-gil/)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jeff37923 on September 10, 2019, 09:49:21 PM
Quote from: Trond;1103381
I'll take this as evidence that Jeff actually did attack Jhkim. Quick! Start a shit-storm now! I think you can even make an argument that they are of different race, so here goes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1D4Xz-3YE4


I am but a humble anthropology student from Omicron Persei 7 who has overstayed his student visa, jhkim had threatened to turn me in to ICE because I am a different race than he is.

This is a video of my confronting jhkim and repeatedly punching him in the head with my energy field. As you can see, there are other witnesses in the helicopter. At the end, my friends gathered to pray with me over this tragedy.

Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 11, 2019, 12:45:33 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103267
Followed by a list of unsubstantiated allegations.  Irony, anyone?


There's no irony here at all. You want an exhaustive list? You can verify their false allegations in the media yourself. Tell you what, why don't you provide a list, even a cursory one such as I provided showing an equivalent number coming from the right.... I'm waiting.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 11, 2019, 12:50:03 AM
Quote from: jeff37923;1103403
I am but a humble anthropology student from Omicron Persei 7 who has overstayed his student visa, jhkim had threatened to turn me in to ICE because I am a different race than he is.

This is a video of my confronting jhkim and repeatedly punching him in the head with my energy field. As you can see, there are other witnesses in the helicopter. At the end, my friends gathered to pray with me over this tragedy.
OK, this has gone far enough. Clearly I should have said something at the time, but this is going too far. Just because you're a freak with only one head, you think you're special.

I have nothing against you one-headed weirdos as long as you act within the law. But illegal Perseids burn me up...

Literally.

:D
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 11, 2019, 10:31:12 AM
By the way, speaking of this thread topic in general; Does anyone know the reaction on Tangency of TBP on this whole thing?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: rgalex on September 11, 2019, 12:14:13 PM
About what you would expect.  Lots of sympathy for Quinn, blaming Holowka for being an abuser but also a victim of the Patriarchy.  Yep, TP caused and supported his toxic masculinity which is a dangerously aberrant behavior that lead to his suicide.

Someone said
Quote
"That's a sign that the patriarchal cause is deeply unhealthy: not just the kind of unhealthy that it's dangerous to be around, but the kind of unhealthy that laughs a little and then starts coughing and doesn't stop coughing for far too long.

If only all diseases could be cured by not being assholes. Gah. This stuff is harmful in both directions. There's a reason they call it "toxic masculinity".


There is also a lot of gamergate hate going on and calling for them to be treated as the hate group they are.  Then it turns to blaming the legal system and police for not taking harassment seriously.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 11, 2019, 12:23:39 PM
Quote from: rgalex;1103466
About what you would expect.  Lots of sympathy for Quinn, blaming Holowka for being an abuser but also a victim of the Patriarchy.  Yep, TP caused and supported his toxic masculinity which is a dangerously aberrant behavior that lead to his suicide.



Quote
There is also a lot of gamergate hate going on and calling for them to be treated as the hate group they are.  Then it turns to blaming the legal system and police for not taking harassment seriously.

Meh. Predictable.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 11, 2019, 01:29:42 PM
Quote from: rgalex;1103466
About what you would expect.  Lots of sympathy for Quinn, blaming Holowka for being an abuser but also a victim of the Patriarchy.  Yep, TP caused and supported his toxic masculinity which is a dangerously aberrant behavior that lead to his suicide.

Someone said

There is also a lot of gamergate hate going on and calling for them to be treated as the hate group they are.  Then it turns to blaming the legal system and police for not taking harassment seriously.

Thanks! Yes, that does sound like them alright :)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 11, 2019, 01:49:42 PM
Getting back to GeekyBugle.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103379
The lynch-mob has already a death count of 4 that I know of and countless lives/reputations ruined.

So, IMHO, the "offender's" name should be kept a secret until a guilty verdict is given. It's the only way to ensure no more victims of the lynch-mob.

Therefore you shouldn't be allowed to "go public" at anytime prior to that. Violating this should carry the same sentence as the crime you're claiming person X committed.

So, as I have already demonstrated even "actual victims" should be made to follow this law, because erroneous identifications occur and because you have no way to determine if someone is an "actual victim" prior to an investigation. (sometimes not even after).

So, because 4 people have died from lies, therefore we should take away everyone's right to tell the truth? People can only tell the truth once the government decides that it's the truth?!?

This strikes me as not conservative, but rather profoundly authoritarian.

Sure, words are dangerous - like guns are dangerous. If anyone is concerned with the government taking their guns away, I think they should be far more concerned over this. Does anyone else here support this?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 11, 2019, 02:10:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103480
Sure, words are dangerous - like guns are dangerous. If anyone is concerned with the government taking their guns away, I think they should be far more concerned over this. Does anyone else here support this?

It's a sticky situation. People are fucking stupid. I'm fucking stupid. I almost participated in a revenge attack against a person in my high school who raped a friend's sister. In hindsight, I'm very glad I didn't. Not only for the legal concequences, but because I would have done it based on gossip.

I don't think people should be legally prevented from making this kind of gossip and inuendo. But goddamn, the fallout is often severe and sometimes fatal.
In my perfect world, more people would be cognizant of how failable humans can be, and temper their actions accordingly.

In my more pessimistic days, I think we should remove all rights. Guns, voting, speech. Just put a brutal monarch on top of the heirarchy and let them beat people into their vision of how things should be, because goddamn, sometimes I think that's our natural state.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 11, 2019, 02:42:05 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1103482
I don't think people should be legally prevented from making this kind of gossip and inuendo. But goddamn, the fallout is often severe and sometimes fatal.
In my perfect world, more people would be cognizant of how failable humans can be, and temper their actions accordingly.

In my more pessimistic days, I think we should remove all rights. Guns, voting, speech. Just put a brutal monarch on top of the heirarchy and let them beat people into their vision of how things should be, because goddamn, sometimes I think that's our natural state.
Yeah, people are stupid and fallible, but from history, monarchs are just as stupid and fallible - often moreso. Democracy is a terrible system of government, but it's still better than any other system of government. I think the world has gotten vastly better with the spread of modern democracies and human rights. Gossip and innuendo suck, but they're also really old problems. People have bee gossipy, finger-pointing assholes in every era - with or without monarchs.

Apropos the OP, I'm more concerned with the suicide rate in general. It seems to me that people are growing more and more depressed -- in large part due to the relentlessly negative and partisan social media and news. Conservatives are seeing civil war and the destruction of society, while liberals are seeing a climate apocalypse and/or rise of fascism.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 11, 2019, 03:10:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103480
Getting back to GeekyBugle.


So, because 4 people have died from lies, therefore we should take away everyone's right to tell the truth? People can only tell the truth once the government decides that it's the truth?!?

This strikes me as not conservative, but rather profoundly authoritarian.

Sure, words are dangerous - like guns are dangerous. If anyone is concerned with the government taking their guns away, I think they should be far more concerned over this. Does anyone else here support this?


What truth? If it's true you go to the police!

And the body count is currently 8 that I know off. 8Innocent people who died because assholes have the power to kill them without any repercussion!

No, words aren't dangerous, lynch mobs are, and the mootoo isn't anything else but a lynch mob, a witch hunt. Powered by the exact same feeling that got many blacks hanging from trees in the USA: "Protek Wahmen!

There are rules in place for when someone uses a gun to kill another human not in self defense. Why shouldn't there be rules to punish the liars who drive people to suicide?

As for the suicide rate, it's not "people" it's mostly men, around 80% and you won't get anything done about it because it's mostly men, drove to suicide by the constant narrative of men=monster. And the removal of an equal playing field because there are less women in field X.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 11, 2019, 03:45:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103490
And the body count is currently 8 that I know off. 8Innocent people who died because assholes have the power to kill them without any repercussion!

I think suicide is a huge problem that needs some serious attention.  But even if people who commit suicide might feel that they have no other options, I don't think you can put the blame entirely on people who harass them.  There are people who are harassed who do not commit suicide.

At least to some degree, suicide is a choice.  In truth, I think that if someone has made the rational decision to end their life, that should be respected (and legal) even if I don't think that is what anyone SHOULD do.  If you're 97 years old and don't feel like your life is worth living, I think you should have the right to kill yourself; if you're a 22-year-old-man and you want to kill yourself, I think you should have the legal right even if there is some counseling/intercession requirement.  

But in any case, people who commit suicide are ultimately making a decision for themselves.  It is very rare for suicide to rise to the standard of murder (but it can, especially with suicide pacts).
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 11, 2019, 04:04:41 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103487
Yeah, people are stupid and fallible, but from history, monarchs are just as stupid and fallible - often moreso. Democracy is a terrible system of government, but it's still better than any other system of government. I think the world has gotten vastly better with the spread of modern democracies and human rights. Gossip and innuendo suck, but they're also really old problems. People have bee gossipy, finger-pointing assholes in every era - with or without monarchs.

I think you misunderstand my point there. It's not that a monarchy would be better. It's that people are too stupid to manage anything else. All our old problems lurk under our so-called civilization. And it doesn't take much to reduce us to a mob of frightened, vicious children in adult bodies, looking towards a King or President to tell us who to blame.
But like I said, that's my pessimistic moments thoughts.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 11, 2019, 04:15:30 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103495
I think suicide is a huge problem that needs some serious attention.  But even if people who commit suicide might feel that they have no other options, I don't think you can put the blame entirely on people who harass them.  There are people who are harassed who do not commit suicide.

At least to some degree, suicide is a choice.  In truth, I think that if someone has made the rational decision to end their life, that should be respected (and legal) even if I don't think that is what anyone SHOULD do.  If you're 97 years old and don't feel like your life is worth living, I think you should have the right to kill yourself; if you're a 22-year-old-man and you want to kill yourself, I think you should have the legal right even if there is some counseling/intercession requirement.  

But in any case, people who commit suicide are ultimately making a decision for themselves.  It is very rare for suicide to rise to the standard of murder (but it can, especially with suicide pacts).

Stop getting high on your own farts.

People are pushed to do all sorts of things everyday, we, as a species, aren't really that good at the rational thing; we operate mostly on emotion, which is why lefties constantly make appeals to emotion to push their BS.

You can't know for sure if people are being drove to suicide by the mob, because we can't make that kind of experiments because it would be against the scientific ethics. But we can know that those people weren't suicidal before the mob attacked them.

Yet here you are (once again), arguing to maintain the status quo of leftie lynch mobs.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 11, 2019, 04:23:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103490
No, words aren't dangerous, lynch mobs are, and the mootoo isn't anything else but a lynch mob, a witch hunt. Powered by the exact same feeling that got many blacks hanging from trees in the USA: "Protek Wahmen!

There are rules in place for when someone uses a gun to kill another human not in self defense. Why shouldn't there be rules to punish the liars who drive people to suicide?

There are. People are put in jail for false accusations. Of course, laws vary depending on the country and state, but they certainly exist. In some cases, they're not strong enough, and I would support increasing them. Here's an example, say -

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-47738892


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1103490
As for the suicide rate, it's not "people" it's mostly men, around 80% and you won't get anything done about it because it's mostly men, drove to suicide by the constant narrative of men=monster. And the removal of an equal playing field because there are less women in field X.

It's true that it's mostly men - but men have *always* had higher rates of both homicide and suicide than women, in all the studies that I've seen. From some combination of socialization and hormones, men tend to be more violent. Assuming that the narrative of men=monster has grown since the 1950s, it doesn't seem to have done much to the male suicide rate. On the other hand, women's suicide rate has changed around, and has increased more. Below are two charts for 1950 - 2005, and 1999 to 2014.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3827[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3828[/ATTACH]

From 1999 to 2014, men's suicide rate increased 16% while women's suicide rate increased 42%.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: tenbones on September 11, 2019, 04:27:31 PM
So... women taking on more male-oriented responsibilities.... <> suicide rates? Is that the goal?

Score one more for Feminism?

Seems like we're doing it wrong.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 11, 2019, 04:37:19 PM
Quote from: tenbones;1103510
So... women taking on more male-oriented responsibilities.... <> suicide rates? Is that the goal?

Score one more for Feminism?

Seems like we're doing it wrong.
Eh, the data is the data. Interpreting rates is always tricky, because there are always a lot of factors changing.

The women's suicide rate peaked at 6.8 around 1975, then decreased to a low of 4.0 around 2000, and since then is on the rise again and is now at 5.8. I'm not sure how that fits with your interpretation.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: tenbones on September 11, 2019, 04:50:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103514
Eh, the data is the data. Interpreting rates is always tricky, because there are always a lot of factors changing.

The women's suicide rate peaked at 6.8 around 1975, then decreased to a low of 4.0 around 2000, and since then is on the rise again and is now at 5.8. I'm not sure how that fits with your interpretation.

I'm saying the correlate of increased suicide rate (which I BELIEVE) has spiked significantly in specific age-demographics among females since the establishment of Intersectionalism writ-large in public discourse specifically within social-media? Causal? Jury is still out. Pretty good indicator.

It would be equally disturbing to find out it's all Trump Derangement Syndrome - and the rate drops once he leaves office. Then can we blame the media? Doubt it.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 11, 2019, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: jhkim
The women's suicide rate peaked at 6.8 around 1975, then decreased to a low of 4.0 around 2000, and since then is on the rise again and is now at 5.8. I'm not sure how that fits with your interpretation.
Quote from: tenbones;1103516
I'm saying the correlate of increased suicide rate (which I BELIEVE) has spiked significantly in specific age-demographics among females since the establishment of Intersectionalism writ-large in public discourse specifically within social-media? Causal? Jury is still out. Pretty good indicator.

When do you think that intersectionalism started? I don't see how that fits with the peak of women's suicide in 1975, and the decrease from 1975 to 2000.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 11, 2019, 06:04:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103508
There are. People are put in jail for false accusations. Of course, laws vary depending on the country and state, but they certainly exist. In some cases, they're not strong enough, and I would support increasing them. Here's an example, say -

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-47738892



It's true that it's mostly men - but men have *always* had higher rates of both homicide and suicide than women, in all the studies that I've seen. From some combination of socialization and hormones, men tend to be more violent. Assuming that the narrative of men=monster has grown since the 1950s, it doesn't seem to have done much to the male suicide rate. On the other hand, women's suicide rate has changed around, and has increased more. Below are two charts for 1950 - 2005, and 1999 to 2014.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3827[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3828[/ATTACH]

From 1999 to 2014, men's suicide rate increased 16% while women's suicide rate increased 42%.

Look at your graphs and learn to interpret statistics.

Yes, women's suicide rate increased 42% from 4 in 100,000 to 5.8 in 100,000, so that's a whole 2 more deaths.

men's increased less just 16% from 17.8 in 100,000 to 20.7 in 100,000 . So that's 3 more deaths, from an already high number of over 4 times that of women's.

Which is why there's lies, damned lies and statistics.

And if you think that the narrative of men=monsters is something new I have bad news for you, it was already a thing in the 70's. Although not dominant among sex-positive feminists of the second wave who won the battle and lost the war since the man haters went in academia.

Go read the scum manifesto, tell me from when is it.

And without noticing you prove my point: Asteroid impacts earth women the most affected.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 11, 2019, 06:10:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1103519
When do you think that intersectionalism started? I don't see how that fits with the peak of women's suicide in 1975, and the decrease from 1975 to 2000.

With that exact name? 1989 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality)

In reality? Before 1963 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality#Marxist_feminist_critical_theory)

But then again, atheists know more about the Bible and Liberals know more about the Marxist philosophies of the people who usurped the name.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 18, 2019, 07:14:59 PM
We must protect everyone's right to free speech, but libel and slander needs to be prosecuted.

And everyone includes the #MeToo liars...but once their lies are discovered, its time for them to pay.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: HappyDaze on September 18, 2019, 07:47:12 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1104731
We must protect everyone's right to free speech, but libel and slander needs to be prosecuted.

And everyone includes the #MeToo liars...but once their lies are discovered, its time for them to pay.

I have to wonder when insurance plans will be developed specifically for covering social media activity-based lawsuits...
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on September 18, 2019, 07:48:51 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1104742
I have to wonder when insurance plans will be developed specifically for covering social media activity-based lawsuits...

How many insurers would be stupid enough to cover that?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 18, 2019, 07:54:48 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1104731
We must protect everyone's right to free speech, but libel and slander needs to be prosecuted.

And everyone includes the #MeToo liars...but once their lies are discovered, its time for them to pay.


With the exact same time in prison that their victims would have served. No ifs, buts or anything.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: HappyDaze on September 19, 2019, 05:32:14 AM
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;1104745
How many insurers would be stupid enough to cover that?

Just like all insurers, it depends on how easily they think they could get away with not paying. If they can get money from somebody and keep bumping it up every time that person posts something that anybody might find offensive, they might make a pretty penny before the guy gets sued and the company dumps him for violating terms.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 19, 2019, 07:21:49 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1103508

From 1999 to 2014, men's suicide rate increased 16% while women's suicide rate increased 42%.

Though another way to look at this is that men's rate went up by 2.9%, whereas women's only went up by 1.8%. Because women's rates are so much lower even a small tick is much larger as a percent of the whole, but in raw numbers there were over twice as many male suicides added to the mix than female suicides. As Mark Twain once said, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

EDIT: Sorry, I covered ground GeekyBugle already covered, though I concur with his remarks.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 19, 2019, 07:25:55 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1104742
I have to wonder when insurance plans will be developed specifically for covering social media activity-based lawsuits...


No doubt. In the litigious climate of the US, it probably is already in the wings.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 19, 2019, 09:21:41 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1104826
Just like all insurers, it depends on how easily they think they could get away with not paying.

So here's a weird thing to stand up for: Insurers.

Generally speaking, property casualty insurers pay exactly what they agreed to pay and generally don't try to get out of paying fair claims.  Even the exceptions are interesting...  If a house is insured for wind/rain damage, but not for flooding, and it is hit by a hurricane where the flood destroyed it but if it had not, the wind/rain surely would have, insurers have to pay (but they fought against it).  The refrain from insurers is 'we'll pay what we should pay and not a penny more'.  For most people the difference between Actual Cash Value (ACV) and Replacement Cost are confusing so often people don't have the insurance they think they do.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 19, 2019, 10:38:11 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1104832
Though another way to look at this is that men's rate went up by 2.9%, whereas women's only went up by 1.8%. Because women's rates are so much lower even a small tick is much larger as a percent of the whole, but in raw numbers there were over twice as many male suicides added to the mix than female suicides. As Mark Twain once said, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

EDIT: Sorry, I covered ground GeekyBugle already covered, though I concur with his remarks.

The more the merrier.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 19, 2019, 10:26:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1104748
With the exact same time in prison that their victims would have served. No ifs, buts or anything.

In many of these fake accusation cases, there would not be a criminal trial as either the statute of limitations would have long passed for alleged "sexual assault" accusations or the false accusations were of "misconduct" which aren't crimes. In these cases, libel and slander laws exist to penalize the liars. Mostly financial penalties, but in the case of a suicide, I could see jail time being realistic.

I wonder if this dead dude's family will go after Quinn. Considering the revelations proving her lies the court case could be interesting.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 19, 2019, 11:17:56 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1105028
In many of these fake accusation cases, there would not be a criminal trial as either the statute of limitations would have long passed for alleged "sexual assault" accusations or the false accusations were of "misconduct" which aren't crimes. In these cases, libel and slander laws exist to penalize the liars. Mostly financial penalties, but in the case of a suicide, I could see jail time being realistic.

I wonder if this dead dude's family will go after Quinn. Considering the revelations proving her lies the court case could be interesting.

One can only hope someday she'll get her due. Right now Marvel and DC decided to reward her with a book each.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Crimhthan on September 20, 2019, 01:15:26 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1103495
In truth, I think that if someone has made the rational decision to end their life, that should be respected (and legal) even if I don't think that is what anyone SHOULD do.


In what way is it possible to say that suicide is ever a "rational" choice? Whether the proximate cause is continual harassment and abuse, severe pain(for many different causes), mental illness, drug and/or alcohol abuse, etc., these are decisions and actions that take place at times when "rational" thought is not even possible. Anguish, depression and despair are powerful motivators.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 20, 2019, 08:50:37 AM
Quote from: Crimhthan;1105045
In what way is it possible to say that suicide is ever a "rational" choice?


UK court rules against paralyzed man in 'right to die' case (https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/16/world/europe/uk-court-syndrome/index.html)

I think that if you have gone to court to explain and defend your reasoning, it would qualify as a Rational choice.  In this specific case, the court did not deny him the opportunity to present his case as they could have/would have if he was not of 'sound mind'.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: subego on September 20, 2019, 09:41:55 AM
Quote from: Crimhthan;1105045
In what way is it possible to say that suicide is ever a "rational" choice?


When someone is already terminal is what jumps to mind. No reason not to take that on your own terms.

I highly recommend taking a lot of shrooms before making the final decision, though.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 21, 2019, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: Crimhthan;1105045
In what way is it possible to say that suicide is ever a "rational" choice? Whether the proximate cause is continual harassment and abuse, severe pain(for many different causes), mental illness, drug and/or alcohol abuse, etc., these are decisions and actions that take place at times when "rational" thought is not even possible. Anguish, depression and despair are powerful motivators.

While I understand your point of view, the notion of rational is very subjective. There are places where this right is upheld, and I highly recommend the film "Choosing to Die", featuring Sir Terry Pratchett for an exploration of assisted suicide as a "rational" choice. It's not an easy film to watch, but it does highlight some of the thought processes going into it as they follow a few people choosing that option in Holland, where assisted suicide is legal.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Crimhthan on September 21, 2019, 01:21:48 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105079
UK court rules against paralyzed man in 'right to die' case (https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/16/world/europe/uk-court-syndrome/index.html)

I think that if you have gone to court to explain and defend your reasoning, it would qualify as a Rational choice.  In this specific case, the court did not deny him the opportunity to present his case as they could have/would have if he was not of 'sound mind'.

Sometimes courts take cases that have no merits. We read every day of frivolous lawsuits that not only are not dismissed, but the person with the frivolous lawsuit wins. Corrupt judges and juries are a reality.

Sometimes courts take cases just to send a message.

And sometimes courts take cases so they can kick the decision to someone else, in this case Parliament.  The message being, go change the law.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Crimhthan on September 21, 2019, 01:34:48 AM
Quote from: shuddemell;1105251
While I understand your point of view, the notion of rational is very subjective. There are places where this right is upheld, and I highly recommend the film "Choosing to Die", featuring Sir Terry Pratchett for an exploration of assisted suicide as a "rational" choice. It's not an easy film to watch, but it does highlight some of the thought processes going into it as they follow a few people choosing that option in Holland, where assisted suicide is legal.

I would note that Sir Terry ultimately made the rational choice to choose to die a natural death.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 21, 2019, 02:06:46 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105079
UK court rules against paralyzed man in 'right to die' case (https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/16/world/europe/uk-court-syndrome/index.html)

I think that if you have gone to court to explain and defend your reasoning, it would qualify as a Rational choice.  In this specific case, the court did not deny him the opportunity to present his case as they could have/would have if he was not of 'sound mind'.

Anything to white knight for LW right?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: subego on September 21, 2019, 06:12:40 AM
Quote from: Crimhthan;1105259
I would note that Sir Terry ultimately made the rational choice to choose to die a natural death.

I didn't see it. Did he say or imply to choose the alternative is irrational?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 21, 2019, 06:59:57 PM
Quote from: Crimhthan;1105259
I would note that Sir Terry ultimately made the rational choice to choose to die a natural death.

Indeed he did, it was rational for him. I am not taking sides because I believe that the choice is ultimately up to the individual. I wouldn't presume to know your specific situation enough to be able to proscribe your choice on whether to live or not.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 21, 2019, 11:20:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105262
Anything to white knight for LW right?

Someone questioned my views on suicide.  I don't think people should kill themselves, just like I don't think people should cheat on their wife.  But just because I don't think people should do it doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.  People do lots of things I don't think they should - that's a right that generally should be protected.  

Most people who attempt suicide regret the choice and don't try again.  I think that it isn't something that should be taken lightly.  But I think there are a lot of good reasons a person might want to die.  If someone wants to die and they're able to show that it is a deliberate and considered choice, I think they should be allowed to.  I would hope that we make an effort to show that they will be missed, but if they really want to go, it should be their right.  I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 22, 2019, 11:48:16 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105366
Someone questioned my views on suicide.  I don't think people should kill themselves, just like I don't think people should cheat on their wife.  But just because I don't think people should do it doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.  People do lots of things I don't think they should - that's a right that generally should be protected.  

Most people who attempt suicide regret the choice and don't try again.  I think that it isn't something that should be taken lightly.  But I think there are a lot of good reasons a person might want to die.  If someone wants to die and they're able to show that it is a deliberate and considered choice, I think they should be allowed to.  I would hope that we make an effort to show that they will be missed, but if they really want to go, it should be their right.  I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Somebody check the thermometer in Hades, because in this instance, I actually agree with deadDMwalking. Wonders never cease.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 23, 2019, 12:03:52 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105366
Someone questioned my views on suicide.  I don't think people should kill themselves, just like I don't think people should cheat on their wife.  But just because I don't think people should do it doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.  People do lots of things I don't think they should - that's a right that generally should be protected.  

Most people who attempt suicide regret the choice and don't try again.  I think that it isn't something that should be taken lightly.  But I think there are a lot of good reasons a person might want to die.  If someone wants to die and they're able to show that it is a deliberate and considered choice, I think they should be allowed to.  I would hope that we make an effort to show that they will be missed, but if they really want to go, it should be their right.  I'm not the only one who thinks so.


In a thread about a person who killed himself because of an accusation that many people feel is very unreliable, deadDMwalking goes "well, if people want to kill themselves, maybe they have good reason to do so"
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 23, 2019, 12:48:41 AM
What's more amazing is how the media jumped to Zoe Quinn's defense in the wake of the suicide, and then their deafening silence once her story fell apart (yet again).

And then DC gave her a job!
https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/09/12/zoe-quinn-to-write-dc-comics-batman-and-superman-spin-off-the-infected-deathbringer/

She's writing a comic called...Deathbringer. BTW, the comment section is comedy gold.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 23, 2019, 01:23:08 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1105538
What's more amazing is how the media jumped to Zoe Quinn's defense in the wake of the suicide, and then their deafening silence once her story fell apart (yet again).

And then DC gave her a job!
https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/09/12/zoe-quinn-to-write-dc-comics-batman-and-superman-spin-off-the-infected-deathbringer/

She's writing a comic called...Deathbringer. BTW, the comment section is comedy gold.

Which is why I dropped all DC books, now -for the first time in my life- I'm not buying anything from the big 2 by my own free will and not lack of money.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 23, 2019, 09:21:02 AM
Quote from: Trond;1105532
In a thread about a person who killed himself because of an accusation that many people feel is very unreliable, deadDMwalking goes "well, if people want to kill themselves, maybe they have good reason to do so"

It certainly came up.  It's hard to talk about suicide without talking about whether you think it should be a protected right or not.  In any case, the only reason it did come up was someone referred to 'suicide' as 'murder'.  Murder is a legal term and it is very difficult to go from suicide to murder - it's not IMPOSSIBLE, but it is difficult.  

If you kill yourself, no matter what circumstances you face that lead you to that decision, I don't think you can absolve yourself for responsibility for the decision.  That's very different from the situation where someone else puts a gun to your head and pulls the trigger.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: moonsweeper on September 23, 2019, 09:55:20 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1105538
What's more amazing is how the media jumped to Zoe Quinn's defense in the wake of the suicide, and then their deafening silence once her story fell apart (yet again).

And then DC gave her a job!
https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/09/12/zoe-quinn-to-write-dc-comics-batman-and-superman-spin-off-the-infected-deathbringer/

She's writing a comic called...Deathbringer. BTW, the comment section is comedy gold.

The comment section is definitely entertaining, probably much more so than the comic will be.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105576
It's hard to talk about suicide without talking about whether you think it should be a protected right or not.

By virtue of being a human being, you have 'free will'.  By definition that grants you the 'right' to end your own life whenever and for whatever reason that you choose.

That does not mean the decision is either rational or good (that would depend on circumstances)...just that you always have the 'right' to make that decision for yourself.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: rgalex on September 23, 2019, 10:35:40 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1105538
What's more amazing is how the media jumped to Zoe Quinn's defense in the wake of the suicide, and then their deafening silence once her story fell apart (yet again).

And then DC gave her a job!
https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/09/12/zoe-quinn-to-write-dc-comics-batman-and-superman-spin-off-the-infected-deathbringer/

She's writing a comic called...Deathbringer. BTW, the comment section is comedy gold.


Not that I want to defend Quinn here, but more than likely the deal for the book was in place way before this.  It was probably made while she was still writing her Vertigo book.

Could they have removed her, yeah, but again, it's probably been in the works for a while and Quinn's script is most likely complete.  It would be a rush to find a fill-in and have it all redone in time for publishing.  It's also only one-shot, as far as I know.  Wonder Woman goes bad because of "Joker" toxin.  Best bet is for them to get it out there and behind them as fast as possible.

Now, if she gets another book... well, then that's on them.  While DC isn't at Marvel levels, they seem to be taking it as a challenge to get to that plateau of wokeness too.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Armchair Gamer on September 23, 2019, 12:46:33 PM
Quote from: rgalex;1105589
Not that I want to defend Quinn here, but more than likely the deal for the book was in place way before this.  It was probably made while she was still writing her Vertigo book.

Could they have removed her, yeah, but again, it's probably been in the works for a while and Quinn's script is most likely complete.  It would be a rush to find a fill-in and have it all redone in time for publishing.  It's also only one-shot, as far as I know.  Wonder Woman goes bad because of "Joker" toxin.  Best bet is for them to get it out there and behind them as fast as possible.

Now, if she gets another book... well, then that's on them.  While DC isn't at Marvel levels, they seem to be taking it as a challenge to get to that plateau of wokeness too.

  On the other hand, once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane. :)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 23, 2019, 01:16:59 PM
Quote from: rgalex;1105589
Not that I want to defend Quinn here, but more than likely the deal for the book was in place way before this.  It was probably made while she was still writing her Vertigo book.

Could they have removed her, yeah, but again, it's probably been in the works for a while and Quinn's script is most likely complete.  It would be a rush to find a fill-in and have it all redone in time for publishing.  It's also only one-shot, as far as I know.  Wonder Woman goes bad because of "Joker" toxin.  Best bet is for them to get it out there and behind them as fast as possible.

Now, if she gets another book... well, then that's on them.  While DC isn't at Marvel levels, they seem to be taking it as a challenge to get to that plateau of wokeness too.

I agree that the deal was probably in place. But I find it so weird that people can't figure out what a walking minefield of red flags this woman (or whatever, she goes by "they" now) really is, even before this latest story. When I heard that a guy had killed himself, I was angry but not the least bit surprised.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 23, 2019, 01:50:29 PM
So, I don't know any details about the case from the OP.

But is the suggestion here that Quinn should be fired / lose employment because of her tweets? It seemed to me that in other threads, most people thought that blacklisting campaigns were wrong - and that there should be a legal trial to determine if people should be punished, rather than trial by Internet.

I can see a case of "Well, trial by Internet is what we have - so it should apply to both accusers and accused." That seems like a valid case. But ideally, I would say that these sort of blacklisting campaigns wouldn't exist. It seems possible to me that if people weren't so into such gossip and blacklisting, that Alec Holowka wouldn't have killed himself. I know there have been legal prosecutions or suing of people for contributing to someone's suicide, though the laws vary from state to state.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: rgalex on September 23, 2019, 02:01:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105610
So, I don't know any details about the case from the OP.

But is the suggestion here that Quinn should be fired / lose employment because of her tweets? It seemed to me that in other threads, most people thought that blacklisting campaigns were wrong - and that there should be a legal trial to determine if people should be punished, rather than trial by Internet.

I can see a case of "Well, trial by Internet is what we have - so it should apply to both accusers and accused." That seems like a valid case. But ideally, I would say that these sort of blacklisting campaigns wouldn't exist. It seems possible to me that if people weren't so into such gossip and blacklisting, that Alec Holowka wouldn't have killed himself. I know there have been legal prosecutions or suing of people for contributing to someone's suicide, though the laws vary from state to state.

Eh, not on my end.  At least not because of the tweets.  I think they shouldn't hire her because she isn't a very good comic writer in addition to being a lightning rod for controversy.  If she was a good writer, well, that would be a different story.  There are a few SJW types that I'll still buy product from.  That's because it's good product.  I'm not 100% always able to separate artist from art, but you need to do some really terrible shit for me to not buy your art if it's good stuff.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 23, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105610
So, I don't know any details about the case from the OP.

But is the suggestion here that Quinn should be fired / lose employment because of her tweets? It seemed to me that in other threads, most people thought that blacklisting campaigns were wrong - and that there should be a legal trial to determine if people should be punished, rather than trial by Internet.

I can see a case of "Well, trial by Internet is what we have - so it should apply to both accusers and accused." That seems like a valid case. But ideally, I would say that these sort of blacklisting campaigns wouldn't exist. It seems possible to me that if people weren't so into such gossip and blacklisting, that Alec Holowka wouldn't have killed himself. I know there have been legal prosecutions or suing of people for contributing to someone's suicide, though the laws vary from state to state.

From rules for radicals: "Make them live under their own rules".

Also, a key difference here is I said I dropped their books, not that everybody should and those who don't are EVIL.

But if we had the power (I mean the press on the side of truth and justice) she should be fired and blacklisted and probably jailed for manslaughter.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 23, 2019, 02:03:17 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1105599
On the other hand, once you pay the Danegeld, you never get rid of the Dane. :)

Exactly.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 23, 2019, 02:21:19 PM
Quote from: rgalex;1105612
Eh, not on my end.  At least not because of the tweets.  I think they shouldn't hire her because she isn't a very good comic writer in addition to being a lightning rod for controversy.  If she was a good writer, well, that would be a different story.  There are a few SJW types that I'll still buy product from.  That's because it's good product.  I'm not 100% always able to separate artist from art, but you need to do some really terrible shit for me to not buy your art if it's good stuff.

Cool. I'm generally in agreement here. If someone is a convicted murderer, say, then I'll have issues with buying their stuff. But for the most part I don't care about a creator's personal life or politics.

I haven't read any of Quinn's stuff, so I have no idea if she's a good writer or not.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: moonsweeper on September 23, 2019, 02:56:15 PM
Quote from: Trond;1105602
I agree that the deal was probably in place. But I find it so weird that people can't figure out what a walking minefield of red flags this woman (or whatever, she goes by "they" now) really is, even before this latest story. When I heard that a guy had killed himself, I was angry but not the least bit surprised.


-emphasis is mine

"They" might actually be the correct pronoun if she is counting the voices in her head...
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 23, 2019, 06:22:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105610
So, I don't know any details about the case from the OP.

But is the suggestion here that Quinn should be fired / lose employment because of her tweets? It seemed to me that in other threads, most people thought that blacklisting campaigns were wrong - and that there should be a legal trial to determine if people should be punished, rather than trial by Internet.

I can see a case of "Well, trial by Internet is what we have - so it should apply to both accusers and accused." That seems like a valid case. But ideally, I would say that these sort of blacklisting campaigns wouldn't exist. It seems possible to me that if people weren't so into such gossip and blacklisting, that Alec Holowka wouldn't have killed himself. I know there have been legal prosecutions or suing of people for contributing to someone's suicide, though the laws vary from state to state.


Firing her would be better than nothing, and a vast improvement on what's been happening so far. Holowka lost his job because of her tweets, then killed himself. To completely honest, I think that if anyone REALLY looked into Quinn's affairs the last decade or so, they would find that she probably belongs in jail. Just a hunch, as I can't prove this. But there is a long trail of broken financial promises, lies to associates, very blatant hypocrisy (screaming harassment while simultaneously harassing and doxxing) ruined lives, etc etc. On top of that, here's another "hobby observation" (so take with a grain of salt); I think she's a psychopath. I know one (my father in-law) and there are some striking similarities in behavior.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 23, 2019, 07:41:53 PM
Quote from: Trond;1105645
Firing her would be better than nothing, and a vast improvement on what's been happening so far. Holowka lost his job because of her tweets, then killed himself. To completely honest, I think that if anyone REALLY looked into Quinn's affairs the last decade or so, they would find that she probably belongs in jail. Just a hunch, as I can't prove this.
To put her in jail, there should be proof, though. That's how justice should work. I'm not saying you're claiming otherwise, but I think sharing unproven hunches invites more trial by Internet.

I understand the complaint that plenty of other people are going through trial by Internet. And I don't have any great ideas how to stop it. But it sucks, and I'm doubtful that calling for more trials by Internet will make things better.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105613
But if we had the power (I mean the press on the side of truth and justice) she should be fired and blacklisted and probably jailed for manslaughter.
Blacklisting is bullshit. I don't think there's a way around individual employers firing people. Employers have their own choices. But if someone is a suspect of something, then they should get a trial. If they're found guilty, then they're jailed. If they're found not guilty, though, they shouldn't be blacklisted as "alternative justice".
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 23, 2019, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105657
To put her in jail, there should be proof, though. That's how justice should work. I'm not saying you're claiming otherwise, but I think sharing unproven hunches invites more trial by Internet.

I understand the complaint that plenty of other people are going through trial by Internet. And I don't have any great ideas how to stop it. But it sucks, and I'm doubtful that calling for more trials by Internet will make things better.


Blacklisting is bullshit. I don't think there's a way around individual employers firing people. Employers have their own choices. But if someone is a suspect of something, then they should get a trial. If they're found guilty, then they're jailed. If they're found not guilty, though, they shouldn't be blacklisted as "alternative justice".

Again, from Rules for radicals: "Make them live under their own rules"
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 23, 2019, 08:56:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105541
Which is why I dropped all DC books, now -for the first time in my life- I'm not buying anything from the big 2 by my own free will and not lack of money.


Have fun exploring all the 2nd tier publishers!

Based on my experience with the "not-DC and not-Marvel", the art is just as good (if not better) and the stories range from just as shitty to equal to anything the big 2 put out.


Quote from: jhkim;1105610
But is the suggestion here that Quinn should be fired / lose employment because of her tweets? It seemed to me that in other threads, most people thought that blacklisting campaigns were wrong - and that there should be a legal trial to determine if people should be punished, rather than trial by Internet.


"Justice for me, but not for thee?" comes to mind.

You're right. There should be NEVER be "trials by internet" and nobody should lose their job based on unfounded accusations, but we're in the PoundMeToo era.

In this era, its high time to fight fire with napalm cluster bombs and multi-meltas and burn everything down. Only when the bonfires are raging out of control will people wake the fuck up and go "hmm, that innocent until proven guilty thing was a really good idea! We should do that!"


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105613
From rules for radicals: "Make them live under their own rules".


Exactly. There should be a campaign against DC demanding her firing.

Not because she had done anything with proof. We may not like Quinn, but we have no hard evidence of wrong doing regarding this wanker's suicide (although, she's clearly been caught in lies multiple times regarding her timelines).

The campaign to fire Quinn is needed simply because the Left won't learn shit until their own rules cause them nightmares. We need to demand purity purges upon them over and over again until their safe spaces are nothing but tears and cinder.


Quote from: moonsweeper;1105621
"They" might actually be the correct pronoun if she is counting the voices in her head...


LOL. That's exactly my thought, or that scene from Ghostbusters:

Dana Barrett: [as The Gatekeeper] I want you inside me.

Dr. Peter Venkman: It sounds like you've got at least two or three people in there already.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Snowman0147 on September 23, 2019, 08:59:33 PM
The disease is spreading.



Before we damn the man can we wait for the evidence to show itself?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Tait Ransom on September 23, 2019, 09:13:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105613
From rules for radicals: "Make them live under their own rules".


Yep.  I hate blacklists and cancel culture, but I don't believe they will end until and unless the left gets a taste of them, good and hard.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Snowman0147 on September 23, 2019, 09:19:59 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1105678
Yep.  I hate blacklists and cancel culture, but I don't believe they will end until and unless the left gets a taste of them, good and hard.

Again Raging Golden Eagle is right.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 23, 2019, 11:30:23 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1105678
Yep.  I hate blacklists and cancel culture, but I don't believe they will end until and unless the left gets a taste of them, good and hard.


At which point they'll cry and weep and push the narrative that cancel culture is a right-wing creation designed to bully women, brown people and Snuffleupagus-kin out of whatever facet of society they're busy burning to the ground, and every newspaper and talking head will run the story.

Law and Order : SUV will air an episode where vile, rightwing CCers gang rape an autistic poly-gendered unicorn- kin's imaginary friend, to teach them their place.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2019, 09:00:37 AM
It's equally true that, regardless of political spectrum, people don't like to hear people who don't agree with them.  

While some on the left may argue for 'de-platforming', the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically.  The right tends to be for the 'status-quo', so keeping things as they are generally means making it hard for new voices to be heard.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 24, 2019, 09:51:10 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105731
It's equally true that, regardless of political spectrum, people don't like to hear people who don't agree with them.  

While some on the left may argue for 'de-platforming', the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically.  The right tends to be for the 'status-quo', so keeping things as they are generally means making it hard for new voices to be heard.

No offense, but I think the one they don't want to hear is you.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 24, 2019, 09:57:56 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105731
It's equally true that, regardless of political spectrum, people don't like to hear people who don't agree with them.  

While some on the left may argue for 'de-platforming', the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically.  The right tends to be for the 'status-quo', so keeping things as they are generally means making it hard for new voices to be heard.

Right. Which is why the only platform the left wants is the one where they hold the mic.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2019, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105731
It's equally true that, regardless of political spectrum, people don't like to hear people who don't agree with them.  

While some on the left may argue for 'de-platforming', the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically.  The right tends to be for the 'status-quo', so keeping things as they are generally means making it hard for new voices to be heard.


I think i know what you mean by "the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically" but, since I don't want to be you I'll ask you to clarify and to provide proof of what you're saying.

Also "historically" usually is a socjuscult code word for "I'm gonna disregard linear time and say that because this bad thing happen in the past the present is equally bad or that you need to submit to any and all humiliation and abuse to right a wrong you didn't commit. I hope that's not what you are doing but...

Edited to add: The Status Quo is to have your life destroyed and to be assaulted for daring to hold a different point of view than the socjuscult. This includes anybody to the right of Mao.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2019, 02:23:26 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105740
Also "historically" usually is a socjuscult code word for "I'm gonna disregard linear time and say that because this bad thing happen in the past the present is equally bad or that you need to submit to any and all humiliation and abuse to right a wrong you didn't commit. I hope that's not what you are doing but...

I live in a Representative Democracy, so it's worth asking whether our representatives are really...representative.  Compared the United States as a whole, Congress is richer, whiter, older, and more Protestant.  

See for yourself (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2018/nov/15/new-congress-us-house-of-representatives-senate)

That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem, but it does mean that when people claim that their voices aren't being heard, the claim shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.  

Greta Thunberg (https://www.ted.com/speakers/greta_thunberg) certainly has a point that leaders may not represent the young.  85% of the US Congress is over age 50.  

Conservatives complain of censorship and deplatforming, yet celebrate Colin Kaepernick's deplatforming from the NFL (https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1173250791848730631)

If you spend time looking for examples, you can see organized movements to deny people a voice.

I think there's more that can be said on this subject, but I think that's enough to clarify my point.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: tenbones on September 24, 2019, 02:26:25 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105731
It's equally true that, regardless of political spectrum, people don't like to hear people who don't agree with them.  

While some on the left may argue for 'de-platforming', the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically.  The right tends to be for the 'status-quo', so keeping things as they are generally means making it hard for new voices to be heard.

Perhaps in hindsight the "status-quo" is better than the alternative the Left is/has been advocating for. And just what IS that exactly other than the destruction of whatever the "status-quo" is - regardless of the standards within those quotes?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 24, 2019, 02:26:48 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom
Yep. I hate blacklists and cancel culture, but I don't believe they will end until and unless the left gets a taste of them, good and hard.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105731
It's equally true that, regardless of political spectrum, people don't like to hear people who don't agree with them.  

While some on the left may argue for 'de-platforming', the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically.  The right tends to be for the 'status-quo', so keeping things as they are generally means making it hard for new voices to be heard.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105740
I think i know what you mean by "the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically" but, since I don't want to be you I'll ask you to clarify and to provide proof of what you're saying.
Blacklists and suppressed speech were around in the U.S. long before the current era. When I was growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, people could easily lose their jobs and more for being outed as gay, for example. My male neighbor is from Texas, and recently went out to a mock homecoming party in a little black dress just for fun, and remarked how he would never have considered that growing up, knowing that he would be beaten for it. Transgender people would rightly fear for their lives just for walking around in public.

Most of the people who blacklisted LGBT people and/or beat them up are still around today. They didn't learn from the reversal that they should be tolerant of other customs and support free speech.

I expect that if there is sufficient social conservative backlash that cultural power shifts back, that the same thing will be true of the social liberals currently in power. If subjected to blacklists again, they won't learn tolerance, but rather will just be hardened to gaining power back.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: tenbones on September 24, 2019, 02:35:24 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
I live in a Representative Democracy, so it's worth asking whether our representatives are really...representative.  Compared the United States as a whole, Congress is richer, whiter, older, and more Protestant.


They represent their party and then their pockets first. This isn't shocking. Pretty narrow view framing you're doing there. You're not wrong - but you're obviously placing being white and Protestant at the forefront - when it's the largest denomination in the country. Representation shouldn't necessarily be based on those demographics alone.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem, but it does mean that when people claim that their voices aren't being heard, the claim shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.


Wrong. You're missing the largest and most obvious point that I put above: They're representing the Party and then themselves. People aren't being heard because the new noble class doesn't *need* to.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B



Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
If you spend time looking for examples, you can see organized movements to deny people a voice.

I think there's more that can be said on this subject, but I think that's enough to clarify my point.



Yeah, and you'll see it's happening on both sides but through different means. A casual look into the Cambridge Analytics scandal pretty much underscores that... and the dark future we're heading into.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2019, 02:41:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105787
Blacklists and suppressed speech were around in the U.S. long before the current era. When I was growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, people could easily lose their jobs and more for being outed as gay, for example. My male neighbor is from Texas, and recently went out to a mock homecoming party in a little black dress just for fun, and remarked how he would never have considered that growing up, knowing that he would be beaten for it. Transgender people would rightly fear for their lives just for walking around in public.

I notice you didn't quote me in full, maybe because here you are ignoring linear time? Yes, things were bad, really bad but today isn't the past, things have changed and you find people like Milo and Blaire White to name but a few openly embraced by most on the right.

Quote from: jhkim;1105787
Most of the people who blacklisted LGBT people and/or beat them up are still around today. They didn't learn from the reversal that they should be tolerant of other customs and support free speech.

And they hold no power, and the republicans embrace people like Milo and Blaire White.

Quote from: jhkim;1105787
I expect that if there is sufficient social conservative backlash that cultural power shifts back, that the same thing will be true of the social liberals currently in power. If subjected to blacklists again, they won't learn tolerance, but rather will just be hardened to gaining power back.

First of the people in power right now (not in the presidency but in media, etc) aren't social liberals or liberals of any stripe, they are authoritarian fucks and if there's a really strong backlash it will be their fault for embracing pedos and other really sick shit.

Second, many of those social conservatives seem very happy with live at let live, just as long as nobody is pushing their children to be trans, or they aren't forced to use invented words to refer to someone.

Like I said in my response to deadDMwalking : Linear time is a thing. Furthermore, evidence that things were bad in the past isn't evidence that things are bad now or will be in the future.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jeff37923 on September 24, 2019, 02:43:58 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
I live in a Representative Democracy, so it's worth asking whether our representatives are really...representative.  Compared the United States as a whole, Congress is richer, whiter, older, and more Protestant.  

See for yourself (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2018/nov/15/new-congress-us-house-of-representatives-senate)

That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem, but it does mean that when people claim that their voices aren't being heard, the claim shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.  

Greta Thunberg (https://www.ted.com/speakers/greta_thunberg) certainly has a point that leaders may not represent the young.  85% of the US Congress is over age 50.  

Greta Thunberg is not a US citizen, so your comparison is apples and oranges. Sixteen year olds lack the necessary life experiences to take seriously as experts on most topics, so making national policy decisions which affect the lives of hundreds of millions of US citizens should not be based on their antics.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
Conservatives complain of censorship and deplatforming, yet celebrate Colin Kaepernick's deplatforming from the NFL (https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1173250791848730631)

If you spend time looking for examples, you can see organized movements to deny people a voice.

I think there's more that can be said on this subject, but I think that's enough to clarify my point.

The National Football League is not a communications platform. It is a group dedicated to supporting and promoting the sport of football, not politics.

And Twitter? Really?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Blood Axe on September 24, 2019, 02:51:16 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
I live in a Representative Democracy, so it's worth asking whether our representatives are really...representative.  Compared the United States as a whole, Congress is richer, whiter, older, and more Protestant.  

See for yourself (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2018/nov/15/new-congress-us-house-of-representatives-senate)

That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem, but it does mean that when people claim that their voices aren't being heard, the claim shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.  

Greta Thunberg (https://www.ted.com/speakers/greta_thunberg) certainly has a point that leaders may not represent the young.  85% of the US Congress is over age 50.  

Conservatives complain of censorship and deplatforming, yet celebrate Colin Kaepernick's deplatforming from the NFL (https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1173250791848730631)

If you spend time looking for examples, you can see organized movements to deny people a voice.

I think there's more that can be said on this subject, but I think that's enough to clarify my point.

Kaepernik? Really?   Are you joking?  
I hate to break it to you- but most employers do NOT want you protesting or anything of the sort ON THE JOB- especially where it hurts their bottom line.  
Do it on your day off.

https://nypost.com/2016/09/01/why-colin-kaepernick-is-wrong-its-not-a-black-and-white-issue/
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2019, 02:53:08 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
I live in a Representative Democracy, so it's worth asking whether our representatives are really...representative.  Compared the United States as a whole, Congress is richer, whiter, older, and more Protestant.  

See for yourself (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2018/nov/15/new-congress-us-house-of-representatives-senate)

Forgeting the corruption, they represent the people that voted for them, regardless of their skin color, sex, sexuality, etc. Seems to me you don't fucking know what a Representative Democracy is.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
That doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem, but it does mean that when people claim that their voices aren't being heard, the claim shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.  

Lets see, if the electorate puts you in the congress, you are representing said electorate and you are supossed to speak for them, furthermore, those you claim can't be heard have all of the media (with very few exceptions) happy parroting whatever bullshit they espouse.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
Greta Thunberg (https://www.ted.com/speakers/greta_thunberg) certainly has a point that leaders may not represent the young.  85% of the US Congress is over age 50.  

Nice, now you're taking your talking points from a 16 year old with asperguers who is being used as a shield, also see me first two points.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
Conservatives complain of censorship and deplatforming, yet celebrate Colin Kaepernick's deplatforming from the NFL (https://twitter.com/RzstProgramming/status/1173250791848730631)

Lets see, is Kaepernick deplarformed? Really? He got fired for doing shit that was turning of the fans during his working hours and using the uniform. Yet the fucking liar is now making more money and has veto power over what products Nike puts out. Yeah poor oppressed thing son of millionaires.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
If you spend time looking for examples, you can see organized movements to deny people a voice.

Yes, plenty, but all of them are on the left.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
I think there's more that can be said on this subject, but I think that's enough to clarify my point.

Yes, it's more than enough to prove you know jack shit about your own political system and only parrot talking points without understanding them.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Pat on September 24, 2019, 04:17:15 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105784
Compared the United States as a whole, Congress is richer, whiter, older, and more Protestant.  

See for yourself (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2018/nov/15/new-congress-us-house-of-representatives-senate)
That's mildly entertaining.

Though it's odd you called out age, because it's true almost everywhere that senior leadership tends to be older than interns. If a Congressional seat is seen as a job that requires skills and experience, that's how it's going to work. And it's also odd that you called out Protestantism, because that's not even one of the options; Christianity includes both Catholics and Protestants (but apparently not Mormons?). And that you didn't call out the biggest single bias -- how religious Congress is. There are twice as many Buddhists as there are non-religious members. And that's not atheism, it's just the members who aren't religious. Three times as many Muslims. Four times as many Hindus. Ten times as many Mormons. Four hundred and thirty five times as many Christians. Given how little most people attend church, that's overwhelming. While the Religious Right has drastically waned in power, apparently people all across the spectrum still feel compelled to profess faith in some religion, any religion, if they want to have any chance of being elected.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2019, 05:02:50 PM
Quote from: Pat;1105810
That's mildly entertaining.
...
And it's also odd that you called out Protestantism, because that's not even one of the options; Christianity includes both Catholics and Protestants (but apparently not Mormons?).

For a more comprehensive analysis (https://www.pewforum.org/2019/01/03/faith-on-the-hill-116/) of religious affiliation in Congress, try this link.  

Again, for clarity, I'm not saying that it is a problem, just that some people might think it is.  I generally don't think that rich people always think about how their policies affect the poor - if you're rich enough, it's hard to even relate to the types of things poor people deal with.

There are a lot of stories (https://moneywise.com/a/knowing-someone-has-serious-money) of clueless rich people.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 24, 2019, 05:15:52 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom
Yep. I hate blacklists and cancel culture, but I don't believe they will end until and unless the left gets a taste of them, good and hard.
Quote from: jhkim
Blacklists and suppressed speech were around in the U.S. long before the current era. When I was growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, people could easily lose their jobs and more for being outed as gay, for example. My male neighbor is from Texas, and recently went out to a mock homecoming party in a little black dress just for fun, and remarked how he would never have considered that growing up, knowing that he would be beaten for it. Transgender people would rightly fear for their lives just for walking around in public.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105792
I notice you didn't quote me in full, maybe because here you are ignoring linear time? Yes, things were bad, really bad but today isn't the past, things have changed and you find people like Milo and Blaire White to name but a few openly embraced by most on the right.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105792
Like I said in my response to deadDMwalking : Linear time is a thing. Furthermore, evidence that things were bad in the past isn't evidence that things are bad now or will be in the future.
I'm not claiming that things haven't changed. I'm saying that we should look at how things progressed in history to inform how things might progress in the future.

Tait Ransom's suggestion is that conservatives should respond with blacklists of liberal targets, because only if they're subjected to blacklists will they learn their lesson.

I'm saying that what we're seeing now is exactly the result of employing this tactic in the past. LGBT people and liberal supporters were subjected to blacklists in the past, and their reaction was "Well, let's blacklist them back!!" That resulted in what Tait calls today's "cancel culture".
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2019, 05:24:55 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105822
I'm not claiming that things haven't changed. I'm saying that we should look at how things progressed in history to inform how things might progress in the future.

Tait Ransom's suggestion is that conservatives should respond with blacklists of liberal targets, because only if they're subjected to blacklists will they learn their lesson.

I'm saying that what we're seeing now is exactly the result of employing this tactic in the past. LGBT people and liberal supporters were subjected to blacklists in the past, and their reaction was "Well, let's blacklist them back!!" That resulted in what Tait calls today's "cancel culture".

Wait a minute, who is calling for a blacklist of people based on their sexuality? Or sex? Or race?

Nope he is saying the same people who support cancel culture should be made to live under their own rules, and I agree, it's the only way they'll learn. And some will not learn even then, that's the nature of cults.

And those people in power right now and that support cancel culture? Those aren't liberals, liberals believe in free expression, private property and freedon of religion. Those? Those are marxists, because intersectionality is a marxist ideology and because all of them agree with it.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 24, 2019, 07:46:25 PM
Quote from: jhkim
I'm saying that what we're seeing now is exactly the result of employing this tactic in the past. LGBT people and liberal supporters were subjected to blacklists in the past, and their reaction was "Well, let's blacklist them back!!" That resulted in what Tait calls today's "cancel culture".
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105823
Wait a minute, who is calling for a blacklist of people based on their sexuality? Or sex? Or race?

Nope he is saying the same people who support cancel culture should be made to live under their own rules, and I agree, it's the only way they'll learn.
I'll try to clarify my point by breaking it down.

1) Tait's suggestion is to apply blacklisting to those who do blacklists. I'm going to call this strategy "counter-blacklisting".

2) An important point is to ask what the result of the counter-blacklisting will be in the future. Will people really learn their lesson?

3) To inform on point #2, we can look at the past. Have there been times in the past when people been blacklisted, and they turned around and tried to blacklist those opposed to them?

4) An example of #3 in the past is LGBT people and allies. LGBT people were often blacklisted particularly in the 1980s and earlier (as well as later to a fair degree). There was a segment among who thought "We should blacklist those who are trying to blacklist us."  This is the counter-blacklist strategy.

5) I believe the result of this counter-blacklist strategy is more blacklisting in general, not people reflecting that blacklisting was a bad idea.

Does that clarify?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: deadDMwalking on September 24, 2019, 08:43:16 PM
Expanding...

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

If my in-group mistreats you while we're in power, it seems likely that you'll mistreat us when you're in power.  If I return to power I'll want to revenge myself upon you when you were just revenging yourself upon me.  This is especially problematic if the people now being persecuted aren't really the ones who started the whole issue.  

If I mistreat you and you later wind up in power, rather than revenge, you should look for justice.  That doesn't just mean punishing the people who did bad things, it also means tearing down the structures they built to ensure their continued rule - not just turning them against their former masters.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2019, 08:47:29 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105844
I'll try to clarify my point by breaking it down.

1) Tait's suggestion is to apply blacklisting to those who do blacklists. I'm going to call this strategy "counter-blacklisting".

2) An important point is to ask what the result of the counter-blacklisting will be in the future. Will people really learn their lesson?

3) To inform on point #2, we can look at the past. Have there been times in the past when people been blacklisted, and they turned around and tried to blacklist those opposed to them?

4) An example of #3 in the past is LGBT people and allies. LGBT people were often blacklisted particularly in the 1980s and earlier (as well as later to a fair degree). There was a segment among who thought "We should blacklist those who are trying to blacklist us."  This is the counter-blacklist strategy.

5) I believe the result of this counter-blacklist strategy is more blacklisting in general, not people reflecting that blacklisting was a bad idea.

Does that clarify?

Okey, now I understand your position, and you might be right or not I see no way to destroy cancel culture other than to have them live under it. It's that or to lose like a gentleman. Guess we'll get to find out who was right.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2019, 08:49:00 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105860
Expanding...

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

If my in-group mistreats you while we're in power, it seems likely that you'll mistreat us when you're in power.  If I return to power I'll want to revenge myself upon you when you were just revenging yourself upon me.  This is especially problematic if the people now being persecuted aren't really the ones who started the whole issue.  

If I mistreat you and you later wind up in power, rather than revenge, you should look for justice.  That doesn't just mean punishing the people who did bad things, it also means tearing down the structures they built to ensure their continued rule - not just turning them against their former masters.

So everything the commies are doing right now around the world? Because not one of you is a liberal, not when you believe in intersectionality and it's logical conclusion identity politics.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 24, 2019, 09:11:07 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105860
Expanding...

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

If my in-group mistreats you while we're in power, it seems likely that you'll mistreat us when you're in power.  If I return to power I'll want to revenge myself upon you when you were just revenging yourself upon me.  This is especially problematic if the people now being persecuted aren't really the ones who started the whole issue.  

If I mistreat you and you later wind up in power, rather than revenge, you should look for justice.  That doesn't just mean punishing the people who did bad things, it also means tearing down the structures they built to ensure their continued rule - not just turning them against their former masters.


Or maybe you're a bunch of douchebags projecting your flaws and insecurities on everyone else.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 24, 2019, 09:20:57 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105861
Okey, now I understand your position, and you might be right or not I see no way to destroy cancel culture other than to have them live under it. It's that or to lose like a gentleman. Guess we'll get to find out who was right.

Thankfully there's a third alternative. Tell the wokescolds to fuck off, and let them devour each other.
It's a slow road, but full of little victories that add up over time.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 24, 2019, 09:27:17 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1105866
Thankfully there's a third alternative. Tell the wokescolds to fuck off, and let them devour each other.
It's a slow road, but full of little victories that add up over time.

So make them live under their own rules? The easiest way is to help them devour each other, something they seem eager to do and that will enjoy doing.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 24, 2019, 09:50:52 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1105866
Thankfully there's a third alternative. Tell the wokescolds to fuck off, and let them devour each other.
It's a slow road, but full of little victories that add up over time.

Sure. We can watch the fires starve each other of oxygen. After burning down everything we like and care about.

Or we can start stomping out the fires when they're small. Before they become conflagrations.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Pat on September 24, 2019, 10:03:55 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105818
For a more comprehensive analysis (https://www.pewforum.org/2019/01/03/faith-on-the-hill-116/) of religious affiliation in Congress, try this link.  

Again, for clarity, I'm not saying that it is a problem, just that some people might think it is.  I generally don't think that rich people always think about how their policies affect the poor - if you're rich enough, it's hard to even relate to the types of things poor people deal with.

There are a lot of stories (https://moneywise.com/a/knowing-someone-has-serious-money) of clueless rich people.

On second glance, the first link you provided is pretty, but the data is absolute garbage. I added up the all the different religious categories, including non-religious, and it comes out to 492, which is not even close to the correct number of members of Congress. The second link does up add up to the correct number, and the breakdown is significantly different. And it's not because new information came to light, because the first link was more recently updated.

I agree on the rich people problem. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0) Pelosi talking about how "free riders" (i.e the working poor) are ruining healthcare for everyone else made me hate her forever.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 24, 2019, 10:10:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105867
So make them live under their own rules? The easiest way is to help them devour each other, something they seem eager to do and that will enjoy doing.

Rather, let them sleep in the beds they made for themselves.
The important thing is to just keep on keeping on. Provide an alternate point of view, and a place where people can voice their dissent.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1105871
Sure. We can watch the fires starve each other of oxygen. After burning down everything we like and care about.

Or we can start stomping out the fires when they're small. Before they become conflagrations.

Barn doors and horses and all that.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 25, 2019, 04:48:43 AM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1105871
Or we can start stomping out the fires when they're small. Before they become conflagrations.

Far too late for that option, but its the right idea in hindsight.


Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105860
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

Exactly.

This is why we need to embrace "The Chicago Way"  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjOPLTTjnwc).

Unless those standing against the SJW bullshit gets the balls to unleash utter devastation upon the lives of their enemies, they will lose the culture war.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Gagarth on September 25, 2019, 06:25:48 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105731
It's equally true that, regardless of political spectrum, people don't like to hear people who don't agree with them.  

While some on the left may argue for 'de-platforming', the people that the right generally don't want to hear have NEVER HAD A PLATFORM historically.  The right tends to be for the 'status-quo', so keeping things as they are generally means making it hard for new voices to be heard.

Because NEVER HAD a PLATFORM is bullshit. What is really meant by NEVER HAD A PLATFORM is really WE (and our quisling allies)
 WANT TO CONTROL EVERYTHING.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octaviano_Ambrosio_Larrazolo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicano_Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicano_Movement)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAACP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAACP)

Some more of the platformless people

Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 25, 2019, 12:38:00 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1105905
Far too late for that option, but its the right idea in hindsight.




Exactly.

This is why we need to embrace "The Chicago Way"  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjOPLTTjnwc).

Unless those standing against the SJW bullshit gets the balls to unleash utter devastation upon the lives of their enemies, they will lose the culture war.

I empathize, but are you seriously reccomending killing SJWs? Because that's where the idea leads. They escalate, we escalate. Last one standing wins.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2019, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1105938
I empathize, but are you seriously reccomending killing SJWs? Because that's where the idea leads. They escalate, we escalate. Last one standing wins.

Use their wokeness against them, make them eat each other, make them Reeeeeeeeeee over stupid shit. The first dwindles their number and distracts their energy inwards, the second helps make people realize just how fucking crazy and evil they are.

Or in short, make them live under their own rules.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Trond on September 25, 2019, 04:54:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105946
Use their wokeness against them, make them eat each other, make them Reeeeeeeeeee over stupid shit. The first dwindles their number and distracts their energy inwards, the second helps make people realize just how fucking crazy and evil they are.

Or in short, make them live under their own rules.

Well, Sarah Silverman certainly got a taste of that
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/entertainment/sarah-silverman-blackface-scli-intl/index.html
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2019, 05:01:47 PM
Quote from: Trond;1105960
Well, Sarah Silverman certainly got a taste of that
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/entertainment/sarah-silverman-blackface-scli-intl/index.html

Not the first or the last, and I'm happy to help them find the impure among their ranks.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 25, 2019, 06:24:06 PM
Why would anybody say the poundmetoo movement ruins innocent lives?


 
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 25, 2019, 07:06:31 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1105938
I empathize, but are you seriously reccomending killing SJWs? Because that's where the idea leads. They escalate, we escalate. Last one standing wins.


If you look at the history of nations before the outbreaks of civil wars, you see the escalation of verbal demonization, control of media narratives to label the out-group as enemies of the people and protests/social gatherings start turning violent.

AKA, the USA in 2019.

America (as a concept) is truly exceptional, but Americans as people are just like the rest of the assholes on the planet. And technology and education do not inoculate humans as evidenced by numerous civil wars (or civil uprisings or ethnic cleansing) in the past century.

While I am not calling for the murder of SJWs, I expect the culture war to go hot in the USA. 250 years is a historical norm for nation to last, so there's no reason to believe the USA is ensured or guaranteed a peaceful and united future.

You are right that escalation ends in civil war.

However, if those opposing SJWs do not swiftly escalate, they will lose the culture war. The "hope" is that escalation against SJWs would break their stranglehold on the culture by exposing their hypocrisy on a large scale while making individual SJWs fear the same "cancel culture" they have inflicted on everyone else.


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105946
Use their wokeness against them, make them eat each other, make them Reeeeeeeeeee over stupid shit. The first dwindles their number and distracts their energy inwards, the second helps make people realize just how fucking crazy and evil they are.

Or in short, make them live under their own rules.


Yes, but taken to the next step where the retaliation is supercharged.

In the case of Quinn, escalation would demanding her firing from DC and scrapping of her book. When DC doesn't quickly comply, the escalation would be hunting through the lives of DC executives and employees for any whiff of wrongthink and then blowing that up large, demanding even more firings. Also if DC fires Quinn or anyone, the escalation would be hunt through their staff anyway and burn them down anyway for having hired Quinn in the first place. Even obedience does not grant mercy.

In regards to SNL, the escalation would be demand NBC to replace Lorne Michaels because previous SNL skits have wrongthink and then hammer NBC for its historical lack of wokeness, demanding firings of all key people.

It would need to get nasty and would require a dedicated social media team with a budget. The level of relentless attack necessary requires a full time staff with resources to rally supporters as targeted weapons.

It would actually be a really fun job!
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 25, 2019, 11:04:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105976
Why would anybody say the poundmetoo movement ruins innocent lives?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAKKzxZkGJE


So here is the article about this from The Sun, with the headline 'HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND' Five-year-old autistic boy 'registered as sex offender' for hugging one classmate and kissing another on the cheek

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10001058/five-year-autistic-boy-sex-offender-hugging-classmate-kissing/

I note that the *only* evidence they have that the boy was registered as a sex offender is a Facebook post from his grandmother (!). Meanwhile, not mentioned in the article is the response from Hamilton County Schools:

Quote
Hamilton County Schools is committed to the safety and well-being of all students. Our school leaders work to serve our families and meet the needs of our diverse learners. This family's characterization of the incident with their child at East Ridge Elementary does not capture the full context of the concerns expressed to them by the school. It was not a hug or kiss that prompted the school to contact the family. Also, at no time did the school administration punish the child or treat the incident as a discipline issue. Moreover, no one at the school sought to label the child as "a sexual predator."

Source: https://www.hcde.org/newsroom/statement_regarding_student_at_east_ridge_elem

So, according to the schools, not only was the child not registered as a sex offender as The Sun claimed, he wasn't punished *at all*.

Jesus. Half of the idiotic 11-minute video is the poster going on about how unbelievable the story is, and yet he doesn't even bother to search for any more information or question the possibility that it might not be true. Maybe The Sun is correct, and the boy was registered as a sex offender, but to believe that, I'd want to see some evidence beyond what The Sun presented.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 26, 2019, 12:03:43 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1105979
If you look at the history of nations before the outbreaks of civil wars, you see the escalation of verbal demonization, control of media narratives to label the out-group as enemies of the people and protests/social gatherings start turning violent.

AKA, the USA in 2019.

America (as a concept) is truly exceptional, but Americans as people are just like the rest of the assholes on the planet. And technology and education do not inoculate humans as evidenced by numerous civil wars (or civil uprisings or ethnic cleansing) in the past century.

While I am not calling for the murder of SJWs, I expect the culture war to go hot in the USA. 250 years is a historical norm for nation to last, so there's no reason to believe the USA is ensured or guaranteed a peaceful and united future.

You are right that escalation ends in civil war.

However, if those opposing SJWs do not swiftly escalate, they will lose the culture war. The "hope" is that escalation against SJWs would break their stranglehold on the culture by exposing their hypocrisy on a large scale while making individual SJWs fear the same "cancel culture" they have inflicted on everyone else.

My concern is that the new boss will be the same as the old boss. I think it's naive to think that the "other side" will put down their weapons when the "war" is "won". I find it far more likely that they'll use their position to enforce their own version of cancel culture. We've seen it before. My fear is that it's inevitable.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: SHARK on September 26, 2019, 06:46:54 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106039
My concern is that the new boss will be the same as the old boss. I think it's naive to think that the "other side" will put down their weapons when the "war" is "won". I find it far more likely that they'll use their position to enforce their own version of cancel culture. We've seen it before. My fear is that it's inevitable.


Greetings!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3868[/ATTACH]

Well, thanks to the rhetoric of Beto about "Hell yes we're coming to confiscate your AR's!", the continued nonsense by Pelosi, Bloomberg, and other assorted Liberal fucking tyrants, and the spread of Liberal SJW hate groups like ANTIFA, I went out just the other night and bought a BCM-AR15, chambered for 5.56mm Nato, and had them add a Talon Eagle 1x8 Scope, a red-dot sight, ambi-sling, adjustable sniper stock, and other goodies. Also got a 60-round drum magazine--yeah, the magazine that Liberal SJW's cry about as being "so evil!", a bunch of 30-round magazines, and a good supply of ammunition! I'm going to have lots of fun with my new "evil assault rifle" at my local gun range. In addition, I'm prepared for whatever comes. The fucking Communists can bring it if they want to. I don't give a fuck. I'm ready, whatever may happen.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 26, 2019, 07:40:16 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106039
My concern is that the new boss will be the same as the old boss. I think it's naive to think that the "other side" will put down their weapons when the "war" is "won". I find it far more likely that they'll use their position to enforce their own version of cancel culture. We've seen it before. My fear is that it's inevitable.


It's quite possible the "new boss = old boss" is inevitable. Human nature is 99% crapass. The aftermath of the last US Civil War wasn't bunnies and kittens for either the North or the South. I have zero illusions about the next civil war bringing forth some wondrous 'Merica Fuck Yeah! utopia.

And living through any civil uprising is a shitstorm. Let's have no illusions about that either.

However, traditional Western culture is being systematically dismantled. It's #1 on the cancel culture hit parade. We are losing the USA of our forefathers AND we are losing the post-civil rights era universal American Dream to authoritarian identity politics, globalism and rising communism. Even Obama would never have campaigned on the craziness we're hearing from every Democrat in 2020.

The USA is swiftly becoming 1 Country, 2 Cultures...and that won't survive. One culture is going to win the culture war and drive the other into obscurity OR the cultures will segregate into 2 countries.

As it stands, SJW doubleplusgoothink has control of academia, the media and social media which puts them in a vastly superior position in the culture war. Unless steps are taken to vastly increase counter-assaults against them, our culture and our cultural values don't have a future.

I'm okay with being the last dinosaur because I don't have kids who would be forced to live in the SJW's dystopia.


Quote from: SHARK;1106146
I went out just the other night and bought a BCM-AR15, chambered for 5.56mm Nato, and had them add a Talon Eagle 1x8 Scope, a red-dot sight, ambi-sling, adjustable sniper stock, and other goodies.


I also went out just the other night, but I got tacos instead. :)

I totally understand your response to Beto/Pelosi, but gotta wonder if the DNC owns stock in gun & ammo companies because you know gun shop owners do the hamster happy dance every time the Democrats talk about gun control. It's like a Black Friday sales rush, but a dozen times every year.

The Conservative Twins (ex-Marines, now comedians) did a video about a DNC representative claiming AR-15s fire .50 caliber bullets.

Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Warboss Squee on September 26, 2019, 08:08:10 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1106146
Greetings!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3868[/ATTACH]

Well, thanks to the rhetoric of Beto about "Hell yes we're coming to confiscate your AR's!", the continued nonsense by Pelosi, Bloomberg, and other assorted Liberal fucking tyrants, and the spread of Liberal SJW hate groups like ANTIFA, I went out just the other night and bought a BCM-AR15, chambered for 5.56mm Nato, and had them add a Talon Eagle 1x8 Scope, a red-dot sight, ambi-sling, adjustable sniper stock, and other goodies. Also got a 60-round drum magazine--yeah, the magazine that Liberal SJW's cry about as being "so evil!", a bunch of 30-round magazines, and a good supply of ammunition! I'm going to have lots of fun with my new "evil assault rifle" at my local gun range. In addition, I'm prepared for whatever comes. The fucking Communists can bring it if they want to. I don't give a fuck. I'm ready, whatever may happen.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


Keep off my Lawn https://imgur.com/gallery/VfEBhjO (http://Keep off my Lawn https://imgur.com/gallery/VfEBhjO)

I hear ya, Shark.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 26, 2019, 10:13:08 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1106151
The Conservative Twins (ex-Marines, now comedians) did a video about a DNC representative claiming AR-15s fire .50 caliber bullets.



Wait, wait, wait. Someone really said that? Fuck even a Mexican with no way to get his hands on one of those legally knows AR-15's fire IBMS!
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: SHARK on September 26, 2019, 10:46:18 PM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1106156
Keep off my Lawn https://imgur.com/gallery/VfEBhjO (http://Keep off my Lawn https://imgur.com/gallery/VfEBhjO)

I hear ya, Shark.

Greetings!

Damn straight, brother! Make sure you are stocked up good before the Liberals make new unconstitutional laws that make it illegal for you to own anything beyond a BB-gun! It amazes me how Liberal traitors everywhere entirely ignore our Constitution, as well as recent Supreme Court pronouncements concerning the 2nd Amendment, and blithely go about trampling people's rights, and making laws that seek to make our population a population of helpless, defenseless sheep!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on September 27, 2019, 04:04:51 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1106146
Greetings!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3868[/ATTACH]

Well, thanks to the rhetoric of Beto about "Hell yes we're coming to confiscate your AR's!", the continued nonsense by Pelosi, Bloomberg, and other assorted Liberal fucking tyrants, and the spread of Liberal SJW hate groups like ANTIFA, I went out just the other night and bought a BCM-AR15, chambered for 5.56mm Nato, and had them add a Talon Eagle 1x8 Scope, a red-dot sight, ambi-sling, adjustable sniper stock, and other goodies. Also got a 60-round drum magazine--yeah, the magazine that Liberal SJW's cry about as being "so evil!", a bunch of 30-round magazines, and a good supply of ammunition! I'm going to have lots of fun with my new "evil assault rifle" at my local gun range. In addition, I'm prepared for whatever comes. The fucking Communists can bring it if they want to. I don't give a fuck. I'm ready, whatever may happen.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


Nice, I just purchased an M1A....
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Brad on September 27, 2019, 10:01:41 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1106172
Wait, wait, wait. Someone really said that? Fuck even a Mexican with no way to get his hands on one of those legally knows AR-15's fire IBMS!

You just gotta be friends with the right people...
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 27, 2019, 07:07:18 PM
Quote from: Brad;1106217
You just gotta be friends with the right people...

And pay through the nose for a gun that might be hot. Yeah, no, better to keep on trying to convince my paisanos we need to move to something like the USA has.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 28, 2019, 12:25:06 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1106172
Wait, wait, wait. Someone really said that? Fuck even a Mexican with no way to get his hands on one of those legally knows AR-15's fire IBMS!


Not just "someone". She has been a US Representative since 1995 and she has degrees from prestigious universities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Jackson_Lee

And you're right, AR-15s neither fire Intercontinental Bowel Movement Systems nor ICBMs :)
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: nope on September 28, 2019, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: shuddemell;1106203
Nice, I just purchased an M1A....

Bastard! I've wanted one for ages since I shot a friend's out in Ellensburg. All I have now is my glock 23 (tritium sights, ghost trigger assembly) and my remington 700T w/bipod left. Had to sell off my frankensteined 5.56 chambered AR and the expensive shit I slapped on it as well as my sig P245 carry years ago for moving money. It's probably for the best as there are no good ranges within immediate distance (and none at all that go beyond ~100 yards so it's a waste) plus I get exuberant with 'spending' ammunition at the range... I'm always tempted at our gun shows, those guys really know how to show off wares. :D I would much rather get an M1A than an AR next, it's just... the price...
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 28, 2019, 03:37:24 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1106322
Not just "someone". She has been a US Representative since 1995 and she has degrees from prestigious universities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_Jackson_Lee

And you're right, AR-15s neither fire Intercontinental Bowel Movement Systems nor ICBMs :)


Dude, you need to learn your acronyms: Intersectional Bowel Movement Stupidity :D
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Tait Ransom on September 29, 2019, 12:13:32 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1105844
I'll try to clarify my point by breaking it down.

1) Tait's suggestion is to apply blacklisting to those who do blacklists. I'm going to call this strategy "counter-blacklisting".

2) An important point is to ask what the result of the counter-blacklisting will be in the future. Will people really learn their lesson?

3) To inform on point #2, we can look at the past. Have there been times in the past when people been blacklisted, and they turned around and tried to blacklist those opposed to them?

4) An example of #3 in the past is LGBT people and allies. LGBT people were often blacklisted particularly in the 1980s and earlier (as well as later to a fair degree). There was a segment among who thought "We should blacklist those who are trying to blacklist us."  This is the counter-blacklist strategy.

5) I believe the result of this counter-blacklist strategy is more blacklisting in general, not people reflecting that blacklisting was a bad idea.

Does that clarify?


There's research in game theory and conflict that suggest you are mistaken, that tit-for-tat is an effective strategy and response.  In the current big example, Aaron Calvin (a reporter) was doing a piece on Carson King, a guy who was making news by raising money for a children's hospital.  Calvin dug up 8 year old Tweets from when King was 16.  The Tweets were racist, but had nothing to do with the current situation.  King suffered some fallout.  Meanwhile, someone digs into Calvin's background, and in a turn of events shocking precisely no one, turns up racist Tweets.

Calvin gets fired, the paper maintains the original story should have gone forward as it did, Calvin maintains he's only being fired because of a right wing rage mob.

Both Calvin and the paper miss the point - there will be one standard for all of us, or there will be none at all.  What there will NOT be is them trying to gin up a rage mob and writing it off as actions have consequences, then claiming it's dirty pool when the same tactic is used on them.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Tait Ransom on September 29, 2019, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1105860
Expanding...

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind...

If my in-group mistreats you while we're in power, it seems likely that you'll mistreat us when you're in power.  If I return to power I'll want to revenge myself upon you when you were just revenging yourself upon me.  This is especially problematic if the people now being persecuted aren't really the ones who started the whole issue.  

If I mistreat you and you later wind up in power, rather than revenge, you should look for justice.  That doesn't just mean punishing the people who did bad things, it also means tearing down the structures they built to ensure their continued rule - not just turning them against their former masters.


An eye for an eye limits retribution.  It means you can do what was done to you, but no more.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Tait Ransom on September 29, 2019, 12:16:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1105861
Okey, now I understand your position, and you might be right or not I see no way to destroy cancel culture other than to have them live under it. It's that or to lose like a gentleman. Guess we'll get to find out who was right.


I agree with you.  I hate we're in this spot, but I think you're right.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2019, 12:39:16 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106629
There's research in game theory and conflict that suggest you are mistaken, that tit-for-tat is an effective strategy and response.  In the current big example, Aaron Calvin (a reporter) was doing a piece on Carson King, a guy who was making news by raising money for a children's hospital.  Calvin dug up 8 year old Tweets from when King was 16.  The Tweets were racist, but had nothing to do with the current situation.  King suffered some fallout.  Meanwhile, someone digs into Calvin's background, and in a turn of events shocking precisely no one, turns up racist Tweets.

Calvin gets fired, the paper maintains the original story should have gone forward as it did, Calvin maintains he's only being fired because of a right wing rage mob.

Both Calvin and the paper miss the point - there will be one standard for all of us, or there will be none at all.  What there will NOT be is them trying to gin up a rage mob and writing it off as actions have consequences, then claiming it's dirty pool when the same tactic is used on them.


But they see themselves as the anointed, as the chosen ones, the new aristocracy. And we're the unwashed masses. Ergo how dare you think you're the equal of your betters!

Yes, equality is a just principle, so if they want cancel culture they have to be really pure or get cancelled. And since they are only human... They aren't really pure, none of us is.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: RandyB on September 29, 2019, 02:57:35 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106630
An eye for an eye limits retribution.  It means you can do what was done to you, but no more.

This is so often overlooked, typically by those who want to take an eye without losing one of their own, or take more than one eye for the eye that was taken from them.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 29, 2019, 05:05:03 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106629

Both Calvin and the paper miss the point - there will be one standard for all of us, or there will be none at all.  What there will NOT be is them trying to gin up a rage mob and writing it off as actions have consequences, then claiming it's dirty pool when the same tactic is used on them.


See, this I'm totally down with.
I dislike cancel culture, but if they're going to do it, they better damn well live up to the same standards.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2019, 08:48:43 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106667
See, this I'm totally down with.
I dislike cancel culture, but if they're going to do it, they better damn well live up to the same standards.

So, like I have been saying:  Make them live under their own rules?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 29, 2019, 10:08:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1106694
So, like I have been saying:  Make them live under their own rules?

Sorta. It's like, for example, when Al Franken stepped down due to pressure from his gropey pictures that came out. Myself, I didn't care that much. It was years ago, it was tasteless and dumb, but nothing a senator couldn't apologize for (apologize to the woman, not the SJW pitchfork mob)
But according to #metoo, he's a horrible, rapey monster, and that's all he'll ever be, so when he stepped down due to mob pressure, I was like "Sucks to be you!"
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 29, 2019, 10:34:11 PM
Quote from: Tait Ransom;1106629
Both Calvin and the paper miss the point - there will be one standard for all of us, or there will be none at all.  What there will NOT be is them trying to gin up a rage mob and writing it off as actions have consequences, then claiming it's dirty pool when the same tactic is used on them.
I agree that there should be a single standard. Liberals should not encourage a rage mob, and then complain it's dirty pool to use the tactic against them.

Conversely, conservatives who think that it's find to use such mob tactics against liberals, can't also complain that liberal mob tactics are wrong.

Too often, I hear logic from either side like "They started it, so it's wrong for them to use it -- but it's justice for us to use it against them."
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2019, 10:40:47 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1106707
I agree that there should be a single standard. Liberals should not encourage a rage mob, and then complain it's dirty pool to use the tactic against them.

Conversely, conservatives who think that it's find to use such mob tactics against liberals, can't also complain that liberal mob tactics are wrong.

Too often, I hear logic from either side like "They started it, so it's wrong for them to use it -- but it's justice for us to use it against them."

So, what are you advocating for? Losing like a gentleman?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: jhkim on September 29, 2019, 11:31:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1106708
So, what are you advocating for? Losing like a gentleman?

The main thing is consistency. If you're going to engage in mob tactics, then don't whine about how the other side engages in mob tactics.

On the other hand, it's possible for people to not engage in mob tactics. The more people who do this on both sides, the more we can get away from that side of culture. It's not possible to win in the sense of eliminating mob tactics, but I think it is possible to reduce their power. I'm not convinced that mob tactics are all that effective in the long run. They might work to some extent, but they can produce burnout and apathy after a time, and make the people engaging in it look like assholes - which turns off many moderates.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Pat on September 29, 2019, 11:47:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1106714
The main thing is consistency. If you're going to engage in mob tactics, then don't whine about how the other side engages in mob tactics.
That's a ridiculous oversimplification. A lot of human moral choices can be described as variations on the prisoner's dilemma, which inherently rejects a one size fits all response. It's about trust, rewards, and punishments, but the decisions are based on past behavior and not made in a vacuum. You can default to trusting, or default to not trusting, and there can be a complex series of conditions about when you punish or forgive, but the essential idea is cooperation and fair play is the best solution to a wide range of problems, but only if it's mutual. It's most commonly expressed in terms of individual decisions, but it's also valid at the group level. So if you decide a group is untrustworthy, then you should treat them as untrustworthy. There is nothing wrong with engaging fairly with those who engage fairly with you, and punishing those who have proven they will not.

If a group consistently uses unfair tactics, using the same tactics against them and and complaining about their use of those tactics is a rational response. Because the goal isn't punishment, it's cooperation. Bad actors need to be punished, but they should know why they're being punished so they have the chance to remedy their behavior. And by making the complaint public, others may decide the bad actors merit punishment, and other potential bad actors are warned of the consequences.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 30, 2019, 01:30:13 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1106714
The main thing is consistency. If you're going to engage in mob tactics, then don't whine about how the other side engages in mob tactics.

On the other hand, it's possible for people to not engage in mob tactics. The more people who do this on both sides, the more we can get away from that side of culture. It's not possible to win in the sense of eliminating mob tactics, but I think it is possible to reduce their power. I'm not convinced that mob tactics are all that effective in the long run. They might work to some extent, but they can produce burnout and apathy after a time, and make the people engaging in it look like assholes - which turns off many moderates.


Except one side targets anybody to the right of Mao, and the other only targets those who have already shown themselves willing to destroy lifes. Example the "journalist" in the million dollars charity case. Exposing his racism I guess you could call that mob tactics, I would call it making them live under their own rules, if anything in your past is valid to dstroy you then so be it, they aren't saints you know?
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Spinachcat on September 30, 2019, 04:43:44 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1106714
The main thing is consistency.


No. The main thing is victory. Nobody cares for how the fight was won when the smoke clears.

One side will win the culture war. For decades, its clearly been SJW victory upon victory across the culture, regardless of their scumbag tactics, the result for them is the same: winning.

Playing nice and fair and blah blah blah is just a recipe for more loss.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Gagarth on September 30, 2019, 06:36:16 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1106707
I Too often, I hear logic from either side like "They started it, so it's wrong for them to use it -- but it's justice for us to use it against them."
What you call Conservative mobs would never have existed if  intersectional jihadist mobs had not led the way so  your condemnation is utter bollocks.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 30, 2019, 01:51:52 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1106740
No. The main thing is victory. Nobody cares for how the fight was won when the smoke clears.

One side will win the culture war. For decades, its clearly been SJW victory upon victory across the culture, regardless of their scumbag tactics, the result for them is the same: winning.

Playing nice and fair and blah blah blah is just a recipe for more loss.



You've defeated yourself. If only victory matters, and principles lead to defeat, then it doesn't matter who wins. Both sides are just as "bad", and the people caught in the middle should just adapt to the "winning" side's demands.
From that perspective, the SJW's deserve to "win", since they, so far, have proven to be the stronger.
Title: Game developer commits suicide after Zoe Quinn accusations
Post by: shuddemell on October 01, 2019, 01:39:43 AM
Quote from: Antiquation!;1106417
Bastard! I've wanted one for ages since I shot a friend's out in Ellensburg. All I have now is my glock 23 (tritium sights, ghost trigger assembly) and my remington 700T w/bipod left. Had to sell off my frankensteined 5.56 chambered AR and the expensive shit I slapped on it as well as my sig P245 carry years ago for moving money. It's probably for the best as there are no good ranges within immediate distance (and none at all that go beyond ~100 yards so it's a waste) plus I get exuberant with 'spending' ammunition at the range... I'm always tempted at our gun shows, those guys really know how to show off wares. :D I would much rather get an M1A than an AR next, it's just... the price...

Well, she's a beauty no doubt, I shied off buying one last year, as I am not a big fan of synthetic stocks, and waited until a found a good price on one with the original walnut stock. Unfortunately they've been working me so much lately, I have yet to shoot her. I am looking forward to zeroing in. My next acquisition is going to be a Henry Big Boy in 45-70. Though that will be a few months off. Yeah, ammo can be a big drain on the pocket, but it's worth it to get the proficiency you need to make your firearms perform to your satisfaction. As far as the price goes, I would wait if I were you and buy what you want. I have an AR, and while it's a fine weapon, it doesn't hold a candle to the M1A. .308 Winchester (7.62 Nato) is, in my opinion, a far superior cartridge compared to 5.56, but it's also pricier. Though I paid nearly twice what I paid for my AR, I don't regret it one iota.

I am looking at a Glock in .40 as they have one at PSA for a ridiculously low price right now, though I tend to prefer .45 ACP in general. I have a SIG P229 chambered for either .40 or .357 Sig, you only have to switch out the barrel. Though I still prefer the 1911 (I have 3), my CCP is a Springfield Armory XDS chambered in .45 ACP. She kicks like a Missouri Mule, but you have to kind of expect that shooting 45 in a subcompact.