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From the RPGPundit's Blog: More on The Magic Deer

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mythusmage:

--- Quote from: Hastur T. Fannon ---And playing a character who believes that things are the way they are based on certain underlying rules that can be determined through observation, experimentation and thought would result in?
--- End quote ---


Not a damn thing. In such a universe individuals don't matter, what matters is the consensus. You need to persuade enough people there could be something to what you say, before you'll see a change.

That's the trick to consensus reality, there has to be a consensus. A large enough consensus to overrule those who disagree. And for it to be a true consensus it has to be something people agree to willingly.

Hastur T. Fannon:

--- Quote from: mythusmage ---Not a damn thing.
--- End quote ---


Exactly

You try playing a Mage game with a character who doesn't believe in magic (and bogs the game down with looking for the trick when someone performs some) or a Werewolf game with a character who doesn't have a problem with urban development or an Orpheus character who doesn't believe in ghosts or (worse) thinks that Oblivion sounds like a pretty good idea then not just the setting, but the actual rules of the game say that this character is wrong

Just like Blue Rose

mythusmage:

--- Quote from: Hastur T. Fannon ---Exactly

You try playing a Mage game with a character who doesn't believe in magic (and bogs the game down with looking for the trick when someone performs some) or a Werewolf game with a character who doesn't have a problem with urban development or an Orpheus character who doesn't believe in ghosts or (worse) thinks that Oblivion sounds like a pretty good idea then not just the setting, but the actual rules of the game say that this character is wrong

Just like Blue Rose
--- End quote ---


Ah, but in the oWOD enough people could change how the world worked. As a matter of fact, how the world worked depended on which game you were dealing with, for within each community there was enough people to dictate how things worked in that circle. Perception made flesh.

You mention Mage. You say, "You try playing a Mage game with a character who doesn't believe in magic..." Doesn't the non-believer fit the spirit of the game? Isn't it the goal of every mage to make his magic seem ordinary, coincidence or a trick lest he be overcome by paradox?

The World of Darkness is based on subjective truth. The idea that truth is malleable and can be altered by altering beliefs. Blue Rose is based on a nasty, narrow objective truth. The magic deer is always right, and you can't change it.

You can disagree with the majority on how the world is in WOD, and be right. Disagree with The Deer in BR, and you are wrong. That sir, is the difference between a consensus reality as in the World of Darkness, and a dictated reality as in Blue Rose.

The Yann Waters:

--- Quote from: mythusmage ---You say, "You try playing a Mage game with a character who doesn't believe in magic..." Doesn't the non-believer fit the spirit of the game?
--- End quote ---
But of course, since after all there's always the Technocracy. A character's view of the world by no means has to involve magic: a PC might believe his unusual abilities to be a bizarre experiment conducted by aliens from outer space, and that would be every bit as acceptable as the paradigms of the Verbena or the Void Engineers.

Still, the existence of the Consensus cannot be affected by the Consensus itself, and in Mage the consensual state of reality remains an objective fact even if no one on Earth believes in it at all. There's a solid structure underlying the universe; at its most fundamental level, it consists of Quintessence being shaped into Patterns by Avatars. Will and belief can't change that.

Hastur T. Fannon:

--- Quote from: mythusmage ---The World of Darkness is based on subjective truth. The idea that truth is malleable and can be altered by altering beliefs.
--- End quote ---


Which in itself is an objective truth

and then there's this:


--- Quote from: GrimGent ---There's a solid structure underlying the universe; at its most fundamental level, it consists of Quintessence being shaped into Patterns by Avatars. Will and belief can't change that.
--- End quote ---



Thinking about it, the nWoD games are worse.  If your character has a sense of morality that's different to the standard Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/human then they are wrong.  The rules say so.  If you don't follow the standard of behaviour as set out in then your character will go insane and have other bad things happen to him/her.  It's not like oWoD where humanity only mattered for humans and vampires and you could find a Path of Enlightenment that more suited your character.  Have a different standard of morality and you are badevilwrong

At least Blue Rose doesn't give you dice penalties for not believing in the Magic Deer (please tell me that's true)

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