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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Wntrlnd on October 02, 2021, 02:27:34 PM

Title: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Wntrlnd on October 02, 2021, 02:27:34 PM
https://www.newsweek.com/macron-france-reject-american-woke-culture-thats-racializing-their-country-1634706

Does this mean "Freedom fries" will return to be called "French fries"?

One thing I find interesting is that the french thinks that the woke makes the problems worse by racializing disparities, creating a divide instead of working together to solve the issues.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: RPGPundit on October 03, 2021, 02:09:21 PM
Hypocritical considering that Wokeness started with Postmodernism, with FRENCH assholes like Foucault and Derrida, working from a tradition of absolute Shit-for-brains French Social Philosophy dating all the way back to Jean-Jacques "Claimed Man is Inherently Good But Abandoned His Own Children To Die As Starving Orphans" Rousseau.

Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 03, 2021, 02:37:45 PM
Hypocritical considering that Wokeness started with Postmodernism, with FRENCH assholes like Foucault and Derrida, working from a tradition of absolute Shit-for-brains French Social Philosophy dating all the way back to Jean-Jacques "Claimed Man is Inherently Good But Abandoned His Own Children To Die As Starving Orphans" Rousseau.
I was gonna say just that.
But its pretty common for the woke older generation to be terrified of the radicalized younger generation, so it fits.  ;D
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Zelen on October 03, 2021, 02:43:56 PM
But does it really? What steps has France taken to reject Woke violence & intimidation? None? Okay then.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Reckall on October 03, 2021, 03:48:30 PM
Hypocritical considering that Wokeness started with Postmodernism, with FRENCH assholes like Foucault and Derrida, working from a tradition of absolute Shit-for-brains French Social Philosophy dating all the way back to Jean-Jacques "Claimed Man is Inherently Good But Abandoned His Own Children To Die As Starving Orphans" Rousseau.

Maybe having tried it before is the very reason why now they are saying "Just no, thanks."

I lived and worked a lot in France, in Paris, from 2011 to COVID (I hope to resume next year). For a few years I even had a French girlfriend - actually from Russia, so we joked that our relationship reminded a bit of a LeCarre novel (she loved reading) :D. I can't remember to have encountered serious episodes of Wokeness - not with the kind of rage and stupidity typical of the English speaking World. Dunno from 2020 onward.

Regarding this article, there is nothing in it that Haidt himself (and others) didn't write on their books or said in their conferences (*). Actually, the French intellectuals mentioned here are bordering plagiarism of the general criticism of Wokeness coming from disparate sectors as disparate as atheists, Christians, Socialists and this very site. It is, at the very least, nice to see that there is awareness of the dangers of going too far.

BTW,

A few miles from where U.S. soldiers landed on the beaches of Normandy, a conference of leading politicians, journalists and intellectuals devoted a panel to "America's woke ideology."

...can also be written as:

"A few miles from where soldiers from the country France helped to gain its independence landed on the beaches of Normandy..."

I can understand the theet-gnashing by the US MSM, but sinking into ridicule won't help.

(*) For an example where Haidt and a Rabbi scholar nuked two very confused, mantra sprouting youngsters without even trying, don't go further that this panel: it is illuminating.

Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 03, 2021, 06:02:27 PM

BTW,

A few miles from where U.S. soldiers landed on the beaches of Normandy, a conference of leading politicians, journalists and intellectuals devoted a panel to "America's woke ideology."

...can also be written as:

"A few miles from where soldiers from the country France helped to gain its independence landed on the beaches of Normandy..."

I can understand the theet-gnashing by the US MSM, but sinking into ridicule won't help.

It could only be written that way by someone who knows no history.  The French military forces were inconsequential in the Normandy invasion (and in the liberation of France, really).  I believe the relevant quote by Patton is "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." 

Of course, the paragraph could have been written as, "A few miles from where soldiers landed on the beaches of Normandy to drive off the occupying forces of the Axis Powers, devotees of an evil ideology called fascism that first took root in Italy and then spread to Germany..."   That would be at least as accurate as your revision, if not more so...
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Reckall on October 03, 2021, 06:16:43 PM

BTW,

A few miles from where U.S. soldiers landed on the beaches of Normandy, a conference of leading politicians, journalists and intellectuals devoted a panel to "America's woke ideology."

...can also be written as:

"A few miles from where soldiers from the country France helped to gain its independence landed on the beaches of Normandy..."

I can understand the theet-gnashing by the US MSM, but sinking into ridicule won't help.

It could only be written that way by someone who knows no history.

Either that, or someone else hasn't a clue about 1775 and what the French were doing at that time.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Eirikrautha on October 03, 2021, 06:45:54 PM

BTW,

A few miles from where U.S. soldiers landed on the beaches of Normandy, a conference of leading politicians, journalists and intellectuals devoted a panel to "America's woke ideology."

...can also be written as:

"A few miles from where soldiers from the country France helped to gain its independence landed on the beaches of Normandy..."

I can understand the theet-gnashing by the US MSM, but sinking into ridicule won't help.

It could only be written that way by someone who knows no history.

Either that, or someone else hasn't a clue about 1775 and what the French were doing at that time.
False.  What the French were doing in 1775 has very little to do with he relationships between these countries today.  Sadly, WWII has just as little to do with it as well...
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Reckall on October 03, 2021, 06:51:30 PM

BTW,

A few miles from where U.S. soldiers landed on the beaches of Normandy, a conference of leading politicians, journalists and intellectuals devoted a panel to "America's woke ideology."

...can also be written as:

"A few miles from where soldiers from the country France helped to gain its independence landed on the beaches of Normandy..."

I can understand the theet-gnashing by the US MSM, but sinking into ridicule won't help.

It could only be written that way by someone who knows no history.

Either that, or someone else hasn't a clue about 1775 and what the French were doing at that time.
False.  What the French were doing in 1775 has very little to do with he relationships between these countries today.  Sadly, WWII has just as little to do with it as well...

I'm happy to see that you grasped why Newsweek ridiculed itself on the first attempt.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: rytrasmi on October 04, 2021, 12:44:05 PM
Hypocritical considering that Wokeness started with Postmodernism, with FRENCH assholes like Foucault and Derrida, working from a tradition of absolute Shit-for-brains French Social Philosophy dating all the way back to Jean-Jacques "Claimed Man is Inherently Good But Abandoned His Own Children To Die As Starving Orphans" Rousseau.
So what? Nobody should be locked into the opinions of their countrymen, especially when it concerns movements from the past. Hypocrisy is different from growth and change.

The French have long had a strong national identity. The woke want to fracture common identities into 1000s of tribes. I side with the French here.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on October 04, 2021, 12:45:11 PM
Guess not all common sense is lost.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Reckall on October 04, 2021, 12:51:51 PM
Guess not all common sense is lost.

Not to mention how the linked article about what the French think about wokeness is basically a litany of what you can read here daily.

If that magazine has an online version, I think I'll buy this issue.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Shasarak on October 06, 2021, 03:04:09 AM
(*) For an example where Haidt and a Rabbi scholar nuked two very confused, mantra sprouting youngsters without even trying, don't go further that this panel: it is illuminating.

Do you think that they got the youngsters on purpose as an example of the problems with Gen-Z?

Also I particularly like how the argument for bringing back safe spaces where minorities can gather means that gentlemans clubs are now back.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Reckall on October 06, 2021, 01:44:18 PM
(*) For an example where Haidt and a Rabbi scholar nuked two very confused, mantra sprouting youngsters without even trying, don't go further that this panel: it is illuminating.

Do you think that they got the youngsters on purpose as an example of the problems with Gen-Z?

I think that those two youngsters were eager to "engage in debate and defend their ideology" - which is all they needed to inspire ridicule.

Also, if you follow closely the debate, you see how there is no debate at all. Both Haidt and the Rabbi are actually trying to be helpful via some basic data and common sense. It is the youngsters who automatically feel "threatened", thus ending up digging their own grave.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on October 07, 2021, 09:43:50 PM
I feel (not) bad for these businesses when wokeness goes outta style. Hopefully they’re denied chapter 11 and just disappear. Ah, one can only dream…
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Godfather Punk on October 08, 2021, 01:44:09 AM
No Woking Areas

It's not really 'rejecting', but when the national public network manages to deliver this kind of satire, it's gotta sting at least a little for the wokies.  :o
And it helps that Woke sounds like the Elmer Fudd version of Rook (which in Dutch means 'Smoke').



I've never heard so many woke buzzwords together outside of TBP or similar environments.  ;D
I just would have changed 'Attacked' by 'Triggered' in the subtitles.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Reckall on October 08, 2021, 10:00:36 AM
No Woking Areas

It's not really 'rejecting', but when the national public network manages to deliver this kind of satire, it's gotta sting at least a little for the wokies.  :o
And it helps that Woke sounds like the Elmer Fudd version of Rook (which in Dutch means 'Smoke').



I've never heard so many woke buzzwords together outside of TBP or similar environments.  ;D
I just would have changed 'Attacked' by 'Triggered' in the subtitles.
🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: DM_Curt on October 09, 2021, 07:48:48 PM
Didn't France import as many North African Muslims as they could, then have issues as the migrants refused to assimilate? Or am I mistaken?
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Wntrlnd on October 10, 2021, 05:11:10 AM
Didn't France import as many North African Muslims as they could, then have issues as the migrants refused to assimilate? Or am I mistaken?

After WW2 France had a need of manpower to rebuild their country and later to grow economically during the '60s.

Thats capitalism, not wokism.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: DM_Curt on October 10, 2021, 10:39:38 AM
I was thinking more of just a few years ago, with mainstream media declaring "There is no rape problem, there are no No-Go Zones or grooming gangs."
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Aglondir on October 11, 2021, 02:55:57 AM
I was thinking more of just a few years ago, with mainstream media declaring "There is no rape problem, there are no No-Go Zones or grooming gangs."
Yeah. So glad I got to see Paris last decade. And Notre Dame.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Wrath of God on October 12, 2021, 05:56:24 AM
From what I've read about Paris from French literature of XIX and early XX centuries immigrants does not seem to change much about this city.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 14, 2022, 06:28:22 AM
Didn't France import as many North African Muslims as they could, then have issues as the migrants refused to assimilate? Or am I mistaken?

After WW2 France had a need of manpower to rebuild their country and later to grow economically during the '60s.

Thats capitalism, not wokism.

That's objectively false, and it's genocidal.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: oggsmash on March 14, 2022, 01:41:42 PM
Didn't France import as many North African Muslims as they could, then have issues as the migrants refused to assimilate? Or am I mistaken?

After WW2 France had a need of manpower to rebuild their country and later to grow economically during the '60s.

Thats capitalism, not wokism.

That's objectively false, and it's genocidal.

  I think what you said and he he said can both be true.  I do not think the biggest of capitalists/corporate interests have ANY interest at all in preserving any sort of native culture out of the nations they operate in.  In some cases, I think they might just be OK with trading our the current crop of citizens for others that they feel better suit their interests.  So I think what he says is true, and what you said is true.  Both things can certainly be true.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 15, 2022, 01:43:07 AM
Didn't France import as many North African Muslims as they could, then have issues as the migrants refused to assimilate? Or am I mistaken?

After WW2 France had a need of manpower to rebuild their country and later to grow economically during the '60s.

Thats capitalism, not wokism.

That's objectively false, and it's genocidal.

  I think what you said and he he said can both be true.  I do not think the biggest of capitalists/corporate interests have ANY interest at all in preserving any sort of native culture out of the nations they operate in.  In some cases, I think they might just be OK with trading our the current crop of citizens for others that they feel better suit their interests.  So I think what he says is true, and what you said is true.  Both things can certainly be true.

What he said about the need to replace the French people with foreigners is objectively false, and it's genocidal.  It's like saying, "Lots of Jews were killed in WW2 therefore Israel needed millions of Muslim and African men to build a Jewish state, and become permanent residents who are now Jewish."  They didn't.  Neither did France.  Neither did Japan.  Thankfully, Japan didn't have any "good guys" in their country which is why they're still Japanese.  Japan got nuke twice and still didn't need to be replaced.  It really says a lot about the Allies who rewarded the Founding Stocks of the various countries with genocide through replacement.  Makes me question the entire Good Guy/Bad Guy narrative.

As for being capitalism, capitalism is not a political system, nor a political ideology.  The people of France are being systematically replaced and displaced by "good guy" liberal democracy.  Both see people as interchangeable, but only one is a lauded moral political ideology that constantly pats itself on the back.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Wntrlnd on March 15, 2022, 03:42:58 AM
Didn't France import as many North African Muslims as they could, then have issues as the migrants refused to assimilate? Or am I mistaken?

After WW2 France had a need of manpower to rebuild their country and later to grow economically during the '60s.

Thats capitalism, not wokism.

That's objectively false, and it's genocidal.

  I think what you said and he he said can both be true.  I do not think the biggest of capitalists/corporate interests have ANY interest at all in preserving any sort of native culture out of the nations they operate in.  In some cases, I think they might just be OK with trading our the current crop of citizens for others that they feel better suit their interests.  So I think what he says is true, and what you said is true.  Both things can certainly be true.

What he said about the need to replace the French people with foreigners is objectively false, and it's genocidal.  It's like saying, "Lots of Jews were killed in WW2 therefore Israel needed millions of Muslim and African men to build a Jewish state, and become permanent residents who are now Jewish."  They didn't.  Neither did France.  Neither did Japan.  Thankfully, Japan didn't have any "good guys" in their country which is why they're still Japanese.  Japan got nuke twice and still didn't need to be replaced.  It really says a lot about the Allies who rewarded the Founding Stocks of the various countries with genocide through replacement.  Makes me question the entire Good Guy/Bad Guy narrative.

As for being capitalism, capitalism is not a political system, nor a political ideology.  The people of France are being systematically replaced and displaced by "good guy" liberal democracy.  Both see people as interchangeable, but only one is a lauded moral political ideology that constantly pats itself on the back.

Manpower as in workforce. Workers that can work for cheaper wages. Not replace culture.
In as much as they (the rulers) think of culture of the immigrants they expect all the arriving people to shed their old culture and assimilate.
They don't realize its no longer the 18th century and they can't just import slaves they can force convert to christianity that easily anymore.





Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: oggsmash on March 15, 2022, 08:46:38 AM
Didn't France import as many North African Muslims as they could, then have issues as the migrants refused to assimilate? Or am I mistaken?

After WW2 France had a need of manpower to rebuild their country and later to grow economically during the '60s.

Thats capitalism, not wokism.

That's objectively false, and it's genocidal.

  I think what you said and he he said can both be true.  I do not think the biggest of capitalists/corporate interests have ANY interest at all in preserving any sort of native culture out of the nations they operate in.  In some cases, I think they might just be OK with trading our the current crop of citizens for others that they feel better suit their interests.  So I think what he says is true, and what you said is true.  Both things can certainly be true.

What he said about the need to replace the French people with foreigners is objectively false, and it's genocidal.  It's like saying, "Lots of Jews were killed in WW2 therefore Israel needed millions of Muslim and African men to build a Jewish state, and become permanent residents who are now Jewish."  They didn't.  Neither did France.  Neither did Japan.  Thankfully, Japan didn't have any "good guys" in their country which is why they're still Japanese.  Japan got nuke twice and still didn't need to be replaced.  It really says a lot about the Allies who rewarded the Founding Stocks of the various countries with genocide through replacement.  Makes me question the entire Good Guy/Bad Guy narrative.

As for being capitalism, capitalism is not a political system, nor a political ideology.  The people of France are being systematically replaced and displaced by "good guy" liberal democracy.  Both see people as interchangeable, but only one is a lauded moral political ideology that constantly pats itself on the back.

  Capitalism in a pure form does not really exist though.  It is more crony capitalism in most places, and that liberal democracy certainly loves "diversity", but the reality is, liberal/conservative or whatever, if the business wants cheap (and like in the USA VERY easy to control) labor, they just buy enough politicians to get it.  There is not a doubt in my mind Facebook and Google would GLADLY replace their entire workforce in the USA with H1B visa holders who just do as they are told for a fraction of the wages.   Of course the law can only be bent so far to that end, and the reality is the workers being brought in simply can not do what the native workers can from a perspective of experience/knowledge/talent etc.   So I think the drive for that replacement has more than one motivator.  Though the French doing mass imports of foreigners during the 60's while the USA was getting the hart-seller act passed at the same time does look like the idea for "invigorating the workforce" could have come from one of those Bilderberg meetings to help everyone get on the same page.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Banjo Destructo on March 15, 2022, 10:05:30 AM
Skipping over most of what was discussed here, but the fundamental building blocks of the modern woke movement comes from french philosophers who were marxists and exported their ideas to the USA, so, #1 point is, fuck you france. Cambodia's commie revolution was directly influenced by french education, it was called the khmer "rouge" for crying out loud. 

But also, #2, fuck you soviet union for funding marxist social groups and political parties in the USA that promoted their cultural poison that picked up on the ideas being exported from france, and shoving people into government positions over 70 years leading to what we have now.

So once again we have europeans fucking around with what was good with america, and now the backfire of what europeans created is kicking them in the ass, so fuck you europe its not america's problem its europes poison that keeps ruining good things for everyone else.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 15, 2022, 04:22:44 PM
What he said about the need to replace the French people with foreigners is objectively false, and it's genocidal.  It's like saying, "Lots of Jews were killed in WW2 therefore Israel needed millions of Muslim and African men to build a Jewish state, and become permanent residents who are now Jewish."  They didn't.  Neither did France.  Neither did Japan.  Thankfully, Japan didn't have any "good guys" in their country which is why they're still Japanese.

AtomicPope - it seems you're using "genocide" such that if two populations mix and intermarry, then it is "genocide" because the distinct genotypes become mixed, but that's a very non-standard use of the term. In common usage, "genocide" only refers to killing people because of their genetics.

Yes, Japan has remained opposed to immigration, so they are still more genetically distinct than countries with lots of immigration like the U.S. I don't think that is a great success story, though. Japan had a powerful economy within its first generation, but at present it has an aging population and very negative population growth. It has steadily been losing its economic edge since the 1990s.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 15, 2022, 06:43:26 PM
What he said about the need to replace the French people with foreigners is objectively false, and it's genocidal.  It's like saying, "Lots of Jews were killed in WW2 therefore Israel needed millions of Muslim and African men to build a Jewish state, and become permanent residents who are now Jewish."  They didn't.  Neither did France.  Neither did Japan.  Thankfully, Japan didn't have any "good guys" in their country which is why they're still Japanese.

AtomicPope - it seems you're using "genocide" such that if two populations mix and intermarry, then it is "genocide" because the distinct genotypes become mixed, but that's a very non-standard use of the term. In common usage, "genocide" only refers to killing people because of their genetics.

Yes, Japan has remained opposed to immigration, so they are still more genetically distinct than countries with lots of immigration like the U.S. I don't think that is a great success story, though. Japan had a powerful economy within its first generation, but at present it has an aging population and very negative population growth. It has steadily been losing its economic edge since the 1990s.

You're all over the place, no wonder you're confused.  The UN definition of genocide is not constrained to "killing people because of their genetics", and with good reason.   Not to mention, talking about Japan's economic decline as if conceptual economics is more important than the existence of actual people is pathological.  It's even more ludicrous considering the current economic decline in many places that don't have Japan's apparent problem of living a long, healthy life.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Wrath of God on March 15, 2022, 09:12:20 PM
Quote
The people of France are being systematically replaced and displaced

People of France are being systematically replaced and displaced for one simple reason - they refuse to breed. No one is really stopping them, they are just enlightened progressives and it's their undeniable human right to refuse to engage in sexual procreation for sake of prolonging nation's existence.
If demographic stats of native French (as much as we can call this weird Celtic by blood, quasi-Latin by language and German by political origin state - native in any way :P) were sustainable, no one would let migrants - not that many. But in late XX century - France, Germany and other rich countries actively sought migrants because their societies grew old, lazy and childless.

Quote
Yes, Japan has remained opposed to immigration, so they are still more genetically distinct than countries with lots of immigration like the U.S. I don't think that is a great success story, though. Japan had a powerful economy within its first generation, but at present it has an aging population and very negative population growth. It has steadily been losing its economic edge since the 1990s.

And it's slowly slowly getting more migrants because it's apparently easier than making own people sustainable.

Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: RPGPundit on March 15, 2022, 10:13:21 PM
France is a Republic. You're French if you adopt French culture and values. The current right-wing candidate for the French Presidency is an incredible booster of French civilization, certainly the most French person running, and ethnically he's an Algerian Jew.

Ethnic replacement is meaningless. The danger is Civilizational Replacement.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 15, 2022, 10:28:20 PM
AtomicPope - it seems you're using "genocide" such that if two populations mix and intermarry, then it is "genocide" because the distinct genotypes become mixed, but that's a very non-standard use of the term. In common usage, "genocide" only refers to killing people because of their genetics.

You're all over the place, no wonder you're confused.  The UN definition of genocide is not constrained to "killing people because of their genetics", and with good reason.   Not to mention, talking about Japan's economic decline as if conceptual economics is more important than the existence of actual people is pathological.  It's even more ludicrous considering the current economic decline in many places that don't have Japan's apparent problem of living a long, healthy life.

The U.N. definition is broader than typical usage, but it still doesn't support your usage. The U.N. definition includes things like forced sterilization and internment camps besides killing, but it definitely does *not* include mixing and intermarriage. Here's the U.N. definition:

Quote
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

None of these describe Algerian immigration into France. I personally don't see intermarriage and mingling of genotypes as "genocide", especially since by that definition I'm personally the product of genocide as my parents are different races (Korean and English). And I don't see that Japan is objectively better in any way than more genetically mixed countries. Japan does have a long life expectancy, but I don't think that shows anything more than that one trait. Within the U.S., for example, California and Hawaii have the highest life expectancy of any states. Does that indicate general superiority of those states compared to others?
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Chris24601 on March 16, 2022, 08:05:17 AM
Quote
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Just an observation, but the current crop of Western leaders are enforcing economic policies designed to crush and impoverish the population, including rampant inflation, food and fuel shortages, endless waves of foreign invaders they give preferential benefits to even as they drive down wages for natives and encouraging violence against segments of the population that includes billions of dollars in property damage and mirders for which the culprits are not held responsible) such that a large portion of the younger generations have decided to forgo having children because they fear for what their children’s lives would be.

How is that NOT genocide by definition D?

Throw in mandatory pre-K through grade 12 and the indoctrination factory that is Leftist education and I’d say you have a decent case under definition E too.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: crkrueger on March 16, 2022, 08:40:07 AM
https://www.newsweek.com/macron-france-reject-american-woke-culture-thats-racializing-their-country-1634706

Does this mean "Freedom fries" will return to be called "French fries"?

One thing I find interesting is that the french thinks that the woke makes the problems worse by racializing disparities, creating a divide instead of working together to solve the issues.

Which of course, it does.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Wrath of God on March 16, 2022, 05:57:42 PM
Quote
Ethnic replacement is meaningless. The danger is Civilizational Replacement.

Those goes toe to toe. Civilisation that promises golden mountains in theory but in practice generates aging childless society, will be saw by barbarians merely as a spoil to plunder.
Justly so - civilisations prevailed over hunter gatherers not because of fancy philosophies but because they were well biologically superior - so populations that adopted them grew stronger and more numerous, and in XXI century we have just a handful of pre-agrarian societies in the whole wide world, with most even tribal groups adopting various forms of farming and animal husbandry.

But it's judged by results, and if result is decadence, then those still vital will have only scorn for you.
Culture cannot exist without people forming it - unless you transform enough foreigners into actual inheritors of your culture - like Rome for example - and IMHO Western Civilisation for various reasons is maybe halfway done compared to Rome and it's Romance language zone.

Quote
How is that NOT genocide by definition D?

It may be or not, but generally not every act with genocidal results will be considered genocide as crime. Purpose matter.
We consider Mec Jeghern or Holocaust to be genocides due to quite evident purposeful actions with basically open intent of driving specific groups to extinction.
It's harder to prove such intent - when there is no direct state violence - and action is merely turning country inside out shitty place to live in. And there are many other reasons to make country shitty - financial scams or even just plain stupidity.

Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Lynn on March 16, 2022, 07:16:59 PM
Yes, Japan has remained opposed to immigration, so they are still more genetically distinct than countries with lots of immigration like the U.S. I don't think that is a great success story, though. Japan had a powerful economy within its first generation, but at present it has an aging population and very negative population growth. It has steadily been losing its economic edge since the 1990s.

They had an interesting plan that I believe got temporarily shelved because of COVID. It would allow companies to get more flexible work visas for foreign workers in key areas like STEM. A worker can bring with them a spouse and children, but not other relations. If they can maintain this status for five years, then they can take a step onto 'permanent residence status,' which then would allow them to apply for citizenship. The thought is that if they can be good members of society for at least five years, they could be a valuable addition. This would especially allow for lots of nurses and physical therapists to help care for the aging population.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 16, 2022, 07:56:37 PM
France is a Republic. You're French if you adopt French culture and values. The current right-wing candidate for the French Presidency is an incredible booster of French civilization, certainly the most French person running, and ethnically he's an Algerian Jew.

Ethnic replacement is meaningless. The danger is Civilizational Replacement.
Culture cannot exist without people forming it - unless you transform enough foreigners into actual inheritors of your culture - like Rome for example - and IMHO Western Civilisation for various reasons is maybe halfway done compared to Rome and it's Romance language zone.

I think RPGPundit's point is that immigrants like Eric Zemmour (the Algerian candidate he mentioned) have inherited French values. I don't know enough to have a strong opinion on France specifically, but I agree that genetic group isn't important to culture.

The U.S. has had significant ethnic shift during the 19th century when it went from being primarily Anglo-Saxon to an ethnic mix of primarily non-English speakers such as Italians, Germans, Poles, etc. - as well as Catholics and Jews. There was a major anti-immigration push in the 1920s against the immigration trend, which cut off immigration for decades. However, I think we've shifted to thinking that those immigrants have inherited the culture - and it isn't anti-American to celebrate Saint Patrick's Day (for example).
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 20, 2022, 12:54:02 AM
AtomicPope - it seems you're using "genocide" such that if two populations mix and intermarry, then it is "genocide" because the distinct genotypes become mixed, but that's a very non-standard use of the term. In common usage, "genocide" only refers to killing people because of their genetics.

You're all over the place, no wonder you're confused.  The UN definition of genocide is not constrained to "killing people because of their genetics", and with good reason.   Not to mention, talking about Japan's economic decline as if conceptual economics is more important than the existence of actual people is pathological.  It's even more ludicrous considering the current economic decline in many places that don't have Japan's apparent problem of living a long, healthy life.

The U.N. definition is broader than typical usage, but it still doesn't support your usage. The U.N. definition includes things like forced sterilization and internment camps besides killing, but it definitely does *not* include mixing and intermarriage. Here's the U.N. definition:

Quote
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

None of these describe Algerian immigration into France. I personally don't see intermarriage and mingling of genotypes as "genocide", especially since by that definition I'm personally the product of genocide as my parents are different races (Korean and English). And I don't see that Japan is objectively better in any way than more genetically mixed countries. Japan does have a long life expectancy, but I don't think that shows anything more than that one trait. Within the U.S., for example, California and Hawaii have the highest life expectancy of any states. Does that indicate general superiority of those states compared to others?

Japan is objectively safer, which on Mazlo's hierarchy of needs establishes a fundamental need that "more genetically mixed" countries do not.

Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

As for immigration to France, the UN Declaration includes ethnicity, nationality, and race without conflating them.  It was written at a time when people weren't so indoctrinated they understood differences and didn't openly engage in DoubleThink to destroy those differences.  The French government is dedicated to destroying French culture, which is precisely what "multiculturalism" is designed to do.  The intended destruction and replacement of culture qualifies as genocide, because it's erasing fundamental aspects of ethnic and national groups.  As for "genetically mixing", the French government is also determined to erase the French people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8yaiN6ew_g

When talking to his peers and the donors a politician is more honest.  The goal is intentional, and the goal is an erasure.  Combined with multiculturalism, it's a total erasure as neither the people nor their language or culture will exist.  Smugly proclaiming that France has a piece of paper and therefore anyone you wave a magic wand over becomes "French" is the arrogance of a super villain.  People who lived in an area for thousands of years with a shared genetic, linguistic, and cultural history have a right to exist without the consent of paper documents, internet commenters, politicians, oligarchs, and whether or not the current regime calls itself a "Republic" and is determined to replace them.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: SHARK on March 20, 2022, 11:36:54 AM
Greetings!

Yeah, regardless of whatever kind of government a nation-state has--or in the case of France having a "Republic"--mere citizenship doesn't make you FRENCH.

French people are a distinctive blood, ethnic group, language, and culture. Just as if you were to move to Japan; learn the Japanese language; embrace Japanese culture. You might be made or classified as a Japanese Citizen--but none of that would suffice to make you *Japanese*

Really, virtually all nation-states are ethno-states, except for America. Russia, England, France, Germany, Japan, China, Mexico, Brazil, Mali, Kenya, and on and on. French are a distinct people just like Japanese.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Lynn on March 20, 2022, 12:59:53 PM
Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

What makes Japan safe has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with "don't disrupt the good of the group" mentality which is pervasive in all parts of society. Legal punishments are severe and they still have the death penalty. Ex-cons don't get treated as if they never committed crimes (as in some European countries) but are screwed forever.

If you scroll back up to my point about the (currently shelved because of COVID) immigration reform plan in Japan, you'll see it has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with keeping your nose clean. There isn't any chain migration. Being born on Japanese soil doesn't get you citizenship. You basically have to prove it by example.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: The Spaniard on March 20, 2022, 03:40:27 PM
Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

What makes Japan safe has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with "don't disrupt the good of the group" mentality which is pervasive in all parts of society. Legal punishments are severe and they still have the death penalty. Ex-cons don't get treated as if they never committed crimes (as in some European countries) but are screwed forever.

If you scroll back up to my point about the (currently shelved because of COVID) immigration reform plan in Japan, you'll see it has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with keeping your nose clean. There isn't any chain migration. Being born on Japanese soil doesn't get you citizenship. You basically have to prove it by example.
Which is the way it should be in the US too
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 20, 2022, 08:01:51 PM
Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

What makes Japan safe has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with "don't disrupt the good of the group" mentality which is pervasive in all parts of society. Legal punishments are severe and they still have the death penalty. Ex-cons don't get treated as if they never committed crimes (as in some European countries) but are screwed forever.

If you scroll back up to my point about the (currently shelved because of COVID) immigration reform plan in Japan, you'll see it has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with keeping your nose clean. There isn't any chain migration. Being born on Japanese soil doesn't get you citizenship. You basically have to prove it by example.

The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/this-firm-hired-1-000-employees-in-india-after-ceo-fired-900-staffers-over-zoom-11644902990570.html

Indian CEO who we are assured is 100% American because someone waved a magic wand over him denigrated, insulted, and fired 900 Americans during a zoom call.  Then he hired 1,000 Indians.  The Putnam study was right again.

If we were to talk about this openly then "protecting the good of the group" would be calling everyone "racist" and doing nothing about it because the "group" is Indian, and not a piece of paper.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Lynn on March 21, 2022, 01:39:44 AM
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663

Just reading the interview on NPR, he points to various groups that seem to maintain cohesion, such as through church or being in the army, but that it has fallen away in general. It is easy to see that is a problem of the brand of multiculturalism of the last 30 odd years and not necessarily based on what existed prior - the 'salad bowl' vs the melting pot. So are you saying that it never existed at all in the United States?

As for cohesion in Japan, while a face in the crowd might stand out, so long as they are surrounded by others that accept them, they are sufficiently 'validated' because some portion of the group demonstrates acceptance, while at the same time, is expected to conform. That's why relationships are critical in Asia and especially true in Japan.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 02:42:05 AM
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663

Just reading the interview on NPR, he points to various groups that seem to maintain cohesion, such as through church or being in the army, but that it has fallen away in general. It is easy to see that is a problem of the brand of multiculturalism of the last 30 odd years and not necessarily based on what existed prior - the 'salad bowl' vs the melting pot. So are you saying that it never existed at all in the United States?

As for cohesion in Japan, while a face in the crowd might stand out, so long as they are surrounded by others that accept them, they are sufficiently 'validated' because some portion of the group demonstrates acceptance, while at the same time, is expected to conform. That's why relationships are critical in Asia and especially true in Japan.

Considering how quickly anyone is fired, censored, and ostracized for going against the Official Narrative™, it's no small wonder he's still reciting the Litanies of Leftism.  After all, he didn't want to publish his work because it proved the Religion of Diversity is a false god.  The fact that he's on NPR at all is because he's not telling them their cult is destructive.  He didn't get invited to reveal his studies but to downplay them.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Lynn on March 21, 2022, 11:23:25 AM
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663

Just reading the interview on NPR, he points to various groups that seem to maintain cohesion, such as through church or being in the army, but that it has fallen away in general. It is easy to see that is a problem of the brand of multiculturalism of the last 30 odd years and not necessarily based on what existed prior - the 'salad bowl' vs the melting pot. So are you saying that it never existed at all in the United States?

As for cohesion in Japan, while a face in the crowd might stand out, so long as they are surrounded by others that accept them, they are sufficiently 'validated' because some portion of the group demonstrates acceptance, while at the same time, is expected to conform. That's why relationships are critical in Asia and especially true in Japan.

Considering how quickly anyone is fired, censored, and ostracized for going against the Official Narrative™, it's no small wonder he's still reciting the Litanies of Leftism.  After all, he didn't want to publish his work because it proved the Religion of Diversity is a false god.  The fact that he's on NPR at all is because he's not telling them their cult is destructive.  He didn't get invited to reveal his studies but to downplay them.

Okay, but that's not an answer. Was there some sort of overarching shared morality in the USA or not? That seemingly parallels the American notion of the melting pot and acceptance of an overarching set of French democratic values. You can see this in how they treat religion in schools. Rather than cherry pick, they ban all, as an alternative to the American 'let everyone do whatever they want.'
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 21, 2022, 09:31:57 PM
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663

Just reading the interview on NPR, he points to various groups that seem to maintain cohesion, such as through church or being in the army, but that it has fallen away in general. It is easy to see that is a problem of the brand of multiculturalism of the last 30 odd years and not necessarily based on what existed prior - the 'salad bowl' vs the melting pot. So are you saying that it never existed at all in the United States?

As for cohesion in Japan, while a face in the crowd might stand out, so long as they are surrounded by others that accept them, they are sufficiently 'validated' because some portion of the group demonstrates acceptance, while at the same time, is expected to conform. That's why relationships are critical in Asia and especially true in Japan.

Considering how quickly anyone is fired, censored, and ostracized for going against the Official Narrative™, it's no small wonder he's still reciting the Litanies of Leftism.  After all, he didn't want to publish his work because it proved the Religion of Diversity is a false god.  The fact that he's on NPR at all is because he's not telling them their cult is destructive.  He didn't get invited to reveal his studies but to downplay them.

Okay, but that's not an answer. Was there some sort of overarching shared morality in the USA or not? That seemingly parallels the American notion of the melting pot and acceptance of an overarching set of French democratic values. You can see this in how they treat religion in schools. Rather than cherry pick, they ban all, as an alternative to the American 'let everyone do whatever they want.'

Actually it is an answer, but you simply can't understand because it doesn't suit your narrative.  Levitt and Gross published their findings on the corruption of academia back in 1995 in the book "Higher Superstition."  Read it if you can.  The information was then used by mathematician Alan Sokal in a scholarly hoax that exposed that academia is full of powerful, connected frauds.  The social sciences are not scientific at all as explained by The Replication Crisis, and as predicted and demostrated by Levitt, Gross, and Sokal the Replication Crisis now affects all of academia.  People like Putnam would rather downplay their findings so a propaganda outlet like NPR will still have him on the air.

Also, the term "melting pot" is literally propaganda from the 1900's and has no basis anywhere else.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 22, 2022, 10:11:00 PM
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.
Actually it is an answer, but you simply can't understand because it doesn't suit your narrative.  Levitt and Gross published their findings on the corruption of academia back in 1995 in the book "Higher Superstition."  Read it if you can.  The information was then used by mathematician Alan Sokal in a scholarly hoax that exposed that academia is full of powerful, connected frauds.  The social sciences are not scientific at all as explained by The Replication Crisis, and as predicted and demostrated by Levitt, Gross, and Sokal the Replication Crisis now affects all of academia. People like Putnam would rather downplay their findings so a propaganda outlet like NPR will still have him on the air.

This seems contradictory. In the latter part, you say that social sciences are not at all scientific and are unreliable -- yet in the first part, you claim the Putnam study as definite truth. Just because it fits your political preconceptions, that doesn't mean the Putnam study is any more reliable than other social science.

I don't mean to dismiss it, though. Social sciences have never been reliable - but well-run social science results are still better than raw opinion. I think there may well be something to the effects of cultural and linguistic differences. I'd support further study, since replication of the Putnam study has been mixed. But talk about the problems of ethnic mixing are themselves tainted, because I do not believe that the early 20th century studies were any more objective or reliable than the late 20th and early 21st.

Especially, people are using Japan as an example of a "good" ethno-state that is simply opposed to immigration, whereas pro-white ethnic policy in the U.S. and Europe have a much more negative view. However, I think anyone from Korea or China has a very different impression of Japan's ethnic attitudes. Japan promoted its own superiority, while at the same time demanding that those in its colonies homogenize and accept Japanese identity. Korean children were taught only in Japanese and even forbidden to speak Korean at school. Even today, there are a ton of Korean and mixed-ethnicity descendants who live in Japan but suffer from discrimination and hatred from pure-blood Japanese, despite them being the result of Japanese imperialism.

Most people are quite clear that it's pure bigotry to say "You're not American" to someone simply because they aren't Anglo-Saxon Christian. This is just as true of those who say "You're not Japanese" to people for their mixed Korean ancestry.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 22, 2022, 10:20:16 PM
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.
Actually it is an answer, but you simply can't understand because it doesn't suit your narrative.  Levitt and Gross published their findings on the corruption of academia back in 1995 in the book "Higher Superstition."  Read it if you can.  The information was then used by mathematician Alan Sokal in a scholarly hoax that exposed that academia is full of powerful, connected frauds.  The social sciences are not scientific at all as explained by The Replication Crisis, and as predicted and demostrated by Levitt, Gross, and Sokal the Replication Crisis now affects all of academia. People like Putnam would rather downplay their findings so a propaganda outlet like NPR will still have him on the air.

This seems contradictory. In the latter part, you say that social sciences are not at all scientific and are unreliable -- yet in the first part, you claim the Putnam study as definite truth. Just because it fits your political preconceptions, that doesn't mean the Putnam study is any more reliable than other social science.

I don't mean to dismiss it, though. Social sciences have never been reliable - but well-run social science results are still better than raw opinion. I think there may well be something to the effects of cultural and linguistic differences. I'd support further study, since replication of the Putnam study has been mixed. But talk about the problems of ethnic mixing are themselves tainted, because I do not believe that the early 20th century studies were any more objective or reliable than the late 20th and early 21st.

Especially, people are using Japan as an example of a "good" ethno-state that is simply opposed to immigration, whereas pro-white ethnic policy in the U.S. and Europe have a much more negative view. However, I think anyone from Korea or China has a very different impression of Japan's ethnic attitudes. Japan promoted its own superiority, while at the same time demanding that those in its colonies homogenize and accept Japanese identity. Korean children were taught only in Japanese and even forbidden to speak Korean at school. Even today, there are a ton of Korean and mixed-ethnicity descendants who live in Japan but suffer from discrimination and hatred from pure-blood Japanese, despite them being the result of Japanese imperialism.

Most people are quite clear that it's pure bigotry to say "You're not American" to someone simply because they aren't Anglo-Saxon Christian. This is just as true of those who say "You're not Japanese" to people for their mixed Korean ancestry.

I know, reading is difficult.  You don't understand "The Replication Crisis" at all.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 23, 2022, 12:41:26 AM
This seems contradictory. In the latter part, you say that social sciences are not at all scientific and are unreliable -- yet in the first part, you claim the Putnam study as definite truth. Just because it fits your political preconceptions, that doesn't mean the Putnam study is any more reliable than other social science.
I know, reading is difficult.  You don't understand "The Replication Crisis" at all.

Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What makes the Putnam study reliable in your mind, compared to other social science studies?

What's your background in this? I originally worked as a physicist, but later also went back and got a degree in education. I was quite dismayed at what I considered the slipshod controls and math analysis in education studies, and I knew even physics was subject to its own biases and flaws.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Lynn on March 23, 2022, 01:32:58 AM
Especially, people are using Japan as an example of a "good" ethno-state that is simply opposed to immigration, whereas pro-white ethnic policy in the U.S. and Europe have a much more negative view. However, I think anyone from Korea or China has a very different impression of Japan's ethnic attitudes. Japan promoted its own superiority, while at the same time demanding that those in its colonies homogenize and accept Japanese identity. Korean children were taught only in Japanese and even forbidden to speak Korean at school. Even today, there are a ton of Korean and mixed-ethnicity descendants who live in Japan but suffer from discrimination and hatred from pure-blood Japanese, despite them being the result of Japanese imperialism.

Most people are quite clear that it's pure bigotry to say "You're not American" to someone simply because they aren't Anglo-Saxon Christian. This is just as true of those who say "You're not Japanese" to people for their mixed Korean ancestry.

Zainichi exist is a weird state in Japan. A big part of the 'harmony' of Japan is fitting in, and Zainichi that make a significant effort can compete and live good lives, as demonstrated by Masayoshi Son. I have met a fair number of them in the Japanese tech industry. But there are many that don't make an effort and take a lot of pride in their culture, therefore its taken by those among the biggest assholes as an affront. Some Zainichi and the schools they attend also have very strong bonds with North Korea, and depending on which way the wind is blowing in regards to North Korea, you can foresee an uptick in abuse.

But I think you'll also find that many Japanese 'find a place' for Koreans, especially Zainichi. Unlike in the US where people act like their opponents are just going to disappear if they push hard enough, Japanese know the Zainichi won't.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:45:00 PM
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.
Actually it is an answer, but you simply can't understand because it doesn't suit your narrative.  Levitt and Gross published their findings on the corruption of academia back in 1995 in the book "Higher Superstition."  Read it if you can.  The information was then used by mathematician Alan Sokal in a scholarly hoax that exposed that academia is full of powerful, connected frauds.  The social sciences are not scientific at all as explained by The Replication Crisis, and as predicted and demostrated by Levitt, Gross, and Sokal the Replication Crisis now affects all of academia. People like Putnam would rather downplay their findings so a propaganda outlet like NPR will still have him on the air.

This seems contradictory. In the latter part, you say that social sciences are not at all scientific and are unreliable -- yet in the first part, you claim the Putnam study as definite truth. Just because it fits your political preconceptions, that doesn't mean the Putnam study is any more reliable than other social science.

I don't mean to dismiss it, though. Social sciences have never been reliable - but well-run social science results are still better than raw opinion. I think there may well be something to the effects of cultural and linguistic differences. I'd support further study, since replication of the Putnam study has been mixed. But talk about the problems of ethnic mixing are themselves tainted, because I do not believe that the early 20th century studies were any more objective or reliable than the late 20th and early 21st.

Especially, people are using Japan as an example of a "good" ethno-state that is simply opposed to immigration, whereas pro-white ethnic policy in the U.S. and Europe have a much more negative view. However, I think anyone from Korea or China has a very different impression of Japan's ethnic attitudes. Japan promoted its own superiority, while at the same time demanding that those in its colonies homogenize and accept Japanese identity. Korean children were taught only in Japanese and even forbidden to speak Korean at school. Even today, there are a ton of Korean and mixed-ethnicity descendants who live in Japan but suffer from discrimination and hatred from pure-blood Japanese, despite them being the result of Japanese imperialism.

Most people are quite clear that it's pure bigotry to say "You're not American" to someone simply because they aren't Anglo-Saxon Christian. This is just as true of those who say "You're not Japanese" to people for their mixed Korean ancestry.

China, where if you're not Han Chinesse you're inferior.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 23, 2022, 05:50:44 PM
AtomicPope - it seems you're using "genocide" such that if two populations mix and intermarry, then it is "genocide" because the distinct genotypes become mixed, but that's a very non-standard use of the term. In common usage, "genocide" only refers to killing people because of their genetics.

You're all over the place, no wonder you're confused.  The UN definition of genocide is not constrained to "killing people because of their genetics", and with good reason.   Not to mention, talking about Japan's economic decline as if conceptual economics is more important than the existence of actual people is pathological.  It's even more ludicrous considering the current economic decline in many places that don't have Japan's apparent problem of living a long, healthy life.

The U.N. definition is broader than typical usage, but it still doesn't support your usage. The U.N. definition includes things like forced sterilization and internment camps besides killing, but it definitely does *not* include mixing and intermarriage. Here's the U.N. definition:

Quote
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

None of these describe Algerian immigration into France. I personally don't see intermarriage and mingling of genotypes as "genocide", especially since by that definition I'm personally the product of genocide as my parents are different races (Korean and English). And I don't see that Japan is objectively better in any way than more genetically mixed countries. Japan does have a long life expectancy, but I don't think that shows anything more than that one trait. Within the U.S., for example, California and Hawaii have the highest life expectancy of any states. Does that indicate general superiority of those states compared to others?

Both are true of China regarding the Huygur.

Some may even argue that activelly discouraging one group not to repoduce because "Muh Environment!" while importing other groups because of the first group's low birth rate also qualify.

I'm more on Pundit's camp tho. The skin color doesn't matter, the culture does, and in this regard ALL of the EU and the UK are guilty of destroying the western culture while protecting the islamist one.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: oggsmash on March 23, 2022, 06:23:42 PM
   Does Japan have any male swimmers beating the brakes off the female swimmers while winning sweet trophies?  Does it have any men up for the position of Woman of the Year?   Stuff like that makes the USA look like a country full of absolute retards.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 23, 2022, 10:25:57 PM
This seems contradictory. In the latter part, you say that social sciences are not at all scientific and are unreliable -- yet in the first part, you claim the Putnam study as definite truth. Just because it fits your political preconceptions, that doesn't mean the Putnam study is any more reliable than other social science.
I know, reading is difficult.  You don't understand "The Replication Crisis" at all.

Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What makes the Putnam study reliable in your mind, compared to other social science studies?

What's your background in this? I originally worked as a physicist, but later also went back and got a degree in education. I was quite dismayed at what I considered the slipshod controls and math analysis in education studies, and I knew even physics was subject to its own biases and flaws.

Just off the top of my head, Putnam's study used sound methodology, very large and diverse sample sizes (over half a million people from a wide range of areas, classes, and age groups), conducted over a quarter of a century (time is necessary to identify and predict social trends, and collect reliable trend data), openly published their data (though reluctantly), and last but not least a big problem with gathering social data is the surveys themselves are often nebulous and therefore unscientific, not the case here as it focused on quantifiable results (what people actually did as opposed to how they felt).  The problem with Putnam is he's still dedicated to his bias.  Just like what happened to Turkheimer after publishing his work on behavioral genetics, after proposing a successful model for predictable behavior that garnered results, Putnam back tracked and downplayed it.  They don't do that because it's incorrect; they do it because their findings are politically incorrect.  What inevitably occurs is they are abandoning the science, thus introducing The Replication Crisis to maintain their social status.

If we're able to look at the data, trends, and methodology, and then apply their findings predictably, we can determine for ourselves whether or not it's valid.  When the scientists abandon their own data in order to conform to a preconceived morality (bias) then that's not science.  When this behavior occurs reliably and predictably, as demonstrated by Levitt, Gross, and Sokal since the 90's (and hilariously replicated by others more recently) throughout an academic community then the entire field can no longer be considered scientific.  These trends started in the humanities (which were never scientific but now they're not even academic as they lack intellectual rigors except to ideological conformity) and slowly spilled over into social sciences and now they're affecting hard sciences.  So I'm not engaging in hyperbole when I say the social sciences are not scientific at all.  I'm speaking to the fact that the moment there is any real science that doesn't conform to the prevailing ideological winds it gets buried along with the careers of the offenders or the actual science gets altered in some way to make it unscientific but more ideologically palatable.

I want to stress that science is not consensus.  The moment anyone claims, "X amount of scientists agree" is the moment they reveal whatever they believe in is not scientific at all.  We have thousands of years of people agreeing on "science" that turned out to be ridiculously false.  More importantly, there are enough malicious cases in history (like the claim that smoking cigarettes was beneficial, or the recent claim that OxyContin is less addictive than other opioids) to cast doubt on those who hide information, malign anyone who questions them, and use consensus and authority as though it were an eternal truth.  Those responses are a big red flag no matter who or where they come from.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 02:00:05 AM
Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What makes the Putnam study reliable in your mind, compared to other social science studies?

What's your background in this? I originally worked as a physicist, but later also went back and got a degree in education. I was quite dismayed at what I considered the slipshod controls and math analysis in education studies, and I knew even physics was subject to its own biases and flaws.

Just off the top of my head, Putnam's study used sound methodology, very large and diverse sample sizes (over half a million people from a wide range of areas, classes, and age groups), conducted over a quarter of a century (time is necessary to identify and predict social trends, and collect reliable trend data), openly published their data (though reluctantly), and last but not least a big problem with gathering social data is the surveys themselves are often nebulous and therefore unscientific, not the case here as it focused on quantifiable results (what people actually did as opposed to how they felt).  The problem with Putnam is he's still dedicated to his bias.
If we're able to look at the data, trends, and methodology, and then apply their findings predictably, we can determine for ourselves whether or not it's valid.  When the scientists abandon their own data in order to conform to a preconceived morality (bias) then that's not science.

Scientists are definitely affected by preconceptions and bias -- but the problem is that non-scientist readers are also affected by their preconceptions and bias. I certainly include myself in that. This isn't a binary -- all papers are affected by bias to a greater or lesser degree, and all readers are affected by it as well. I saw this very clearly working in science education. Students - even very smart ones - hold onto their preconceptions very strongly, even when presented with evidence that contradicts them. Some people are less biased than others, but I find that bias - even in myself - is more common than I thought growing up.

So, for the Putnam study, I don't have any background in political science. I can read dozens of papers and try to classify them in my mind into valid or invalid, but I don't think that will necessarily make me any more accurate than political scientists, because my classification is also going to be biased by my own preconceptions.

---

That said, I am reading Putnam's work here - though there might be another version of his work that you are reading.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x

As I read it, this paper primarily presents data from the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey, which is a single study done in 2000, with a sample size of 30,000. However, you mentioned data collected over 25 years with half a million people. Can you cite the data you're talking about?
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 24, 2022, 02:46:42 AM
Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? What makes the Putnam study reliable in your mind, compared to other social science studies?

What's your background in this? I originally worked as a physicist, but later also went back and got a degree in education. I was quite dismayed at what I considered the slipshod controls and math analysis in education studies, and I knew even physics was subject to its own biases and flaws.

Just off the top of my head, Putnam's study used sound methodology, very large and diverse sample sizes (over half a million people from a wide range of areas, classes, and age groups), conducted over a quarter of a century (time is necessary to identify and predict social trends, and collect reliable trend data), openly published their data (though reluctantly), and last but not least a big problem with gathering social data is the surveys themselves are often nebulous and therefore unscientific, not the case here as it focused on quantifiable results (what people actually did as opposed to how they felt).  The problem with Putnam is he's still dedicated to his bias.
If we're able to look at the data, trends, and methodology, and then apply their findings predictably, we can determine for ourselves whether or not it's valid.  When the scientists abandon their own data in order to conform to a preconceived morality (bias) then that's not science.

Scientists are definitely affected by preconceptions and bias -- but the problem is that non-scientist readers are also affected by their preconceptions and bias. I certainly include myself in that. This isn't a binary -- all papers are affected by bias to a greater or lesser degree, and all readers are affected by it as well. I saw this very clearly working in science education. Students - even very smart ones - hold onto their preconceptions very strongly, even when presented with evidence that contradicts them. Some people are less biased than others, but I find that bias - even in myself - is more common than I thought growing up.

So, for the Putnam study, I don't have any background in political science. I can read dozens of papers and try to classify them in my mind into valid or invalid, but I don't think that will necessarily make me any more accurate than political scientists, because my classification is also going to be biased by my own preconceptions.

---

That said, I am reading Putnam's work here - though there might be another version of his work that you are reading.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x

As I read it, this paper primarily presents data from the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey, which is a single study done in 2000, with a sample size of 30,000. However, you mentioned data collected over 25 years with half a million people. Can you cite the data you're talking about?

You could go to Putnam's personal blog:
http://robertdputnam.com/bowling-alone/

Or his book site:
http://bowlingalone.com/?page_id=7
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 05:11:28 PM
Scientists are definitely affected by preconceptions and bias -- but the problem is that non-scientist readers are also affected by their preconceptions and bias. I certainly include myself in that. This isn't a binary -- all papers are affected by bias to a greater or lesser degree, and all readers are affected by it as well. I saw this very clearly working in science education. Students - even very smart ones - hold onto their preconceptions very strongly, even when presented with evidence that contradicts them. Some people are less biased than others, but I find that bias - even in myself - is more common than I thought growing up.

So, for the Putnam study, I don't have any background in political science. I can read dozens of papers and try to classify them in my mind into valid or invalid, but I don't think that will necessarily make me any more accurate than political scientists, because my classification is also going to be biased by my own preconceptions.

---

That said, I am reading Putnam's work here - though there might be another version of his work that you are reading.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x

As I read it, this paper primarily presents data from the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey, which is a single study done in 2000, with a sample size of 30,000. However, you mentioned data collected over 25 years with half a million people. Can you cite the data you're talking about?

You could go to Putnam's personal blog:
http://robertdputnam.com/bowling-alone/

Or his book site:
http://bowlingalone.com/?page_id=7

Thanks. However, his book was published in 2000, and doesn't seem to say anything about the effects of ethnic diversity. (I haven't read the book yet, but I haven't seen any discussion of that in the Wikipedia or book reviews that I saw.)

His paper in 2006 seems to be the main cited source for the conclusion on diversity. The large data set you mentioned seems to be the Roper Social and Political Trends data -- which is used in the social capital book in 2000, but isn't mentioned in the 2006 paper on diversity. Is there another paper or blog post by Putnam that uses the Roper data set regarding ethnic diversity?

Also, it seems like the version of social capital he uses was disputed even prior to his conclusions about ethnic diversity. This is a 2004 summary paper that contrasts different conceptions of "social capital", for example.

https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/33/4/682/665556

So in short, like most social science, I take all the conceptions of social capital with a big grain of salt. Maybe it pans out, maybe not.

-----

But to get back to the main point - are immigrants to France like Éric Zemmour can ever really be French. Or as Pundit put it, does skin color matter? And are mono-ethnic societies broadly better?

I have a bunch of extended family who live in Korea, which is a largely mono-ethnic society as Japan largely is. So I have a pretty good idea about what life is like there. In the bigger picture, no, I don't feel like life is better there than in the U.S. They have some things better, and some things worse.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Wrath of God on March 24, 2022, 06:38:05 PM
I don't think it's about better life per se, but more about higher level of social cohesion and trust. Problem is it's still can be practiced around pathological values.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: AtomicPope on March 24, 2022, 07:03:45 PM
Scientists are definitely affected by preconceptions and bias -- but the problem is that non-scientist readers are also affected by their preconceptions and bias. I certainly include myself in that. This isn't a binary -- all papers are affected by bias to a greater or lesser degree, and all readers are affected by it as well. I saw this very clearly working in science education. Students - even very smart ones - hold onto their preconceptions very strongly, even when presented with evidence that contradicts them. Some people are less biased than others, but I find that bias - even in myself - is more common than I thought growing up.

So, for the Putnam study, I don't have any background in political science. I can read dozens of papers and try to classify them in my mind into valid or invalid, but I don't think that will necessarily make me any more accurate than political scientists, because my classification is also going to be biased by my own preconceptions.

---

That said, I am reading Putnam's work here - though there might be another version of his work that you are reading.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1467-9477.2007.00176.x

As I read it, this paper primarily presents data from the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey, which is a single study done in 2000, with a sample size of 30,000. However, you mentioned data collected over 25 years with half a million people. Can you cite the data you're talking about?

You could go to Putnam's personal blog:
http://robertdputnam.com/bowling-alone/

Or his book site:
http://bowlingalone.com/?page_id=7

Thanks. However, his book was published in 2000, and doesn't seem to say anything about the effects of ethnic diversity. (I haven't read the book yet, but I haven't seen any discussion of that in the Wikipedia or book reviews that I saw.)

His paper in 2006 seems to be the main cited source for the conclusion on diversity. The large data set you mentioned seems to be the Roper Social and Political Trends data -- which is used in the social capital book in 2000, but isn't mentioned in the 2006 paper on diversity. Is there another paper or blog post by Putnam that uses the Roper data set regarding ethnic diversity?

Also, it seems like the version of social capital he uses was disputed even prior to his conclusions about ethnic diversity. This is a 2004 summary paper that contrasts different conceptions of "social capital", for example.

https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/33/4/682/665556

So in short, like most social science, I take all the conceptions of social capital with a big grain of salt. Maybe it pans out, maybe not.

-----

But to get back to the main point - are immigrants to France like Éric Zemmour can ever really be French. Or as Pundit put it, does skin color matter? And are mono-ethnic societies broadly better?

I have a bunch of extended family who live in Korea, which is a largely mono-ethnic society as Japan largely is. So I have a pretty good idea about what life is like there. In the bigger picture, no, I don't feel like life is better there than in the U.S. They have some things better, and some things worse.

To everyone who asks that question I will believe them when they heckle every single non-White organization until they close their doors forever because no one asks that question without making a statement.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: SHARK on March 24, 2022, 07:56:06 PM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: jhkim on March 24, 2022, 08:03:16 PM
But to get back to the main point - are immigrants to France like Éric Zemmour can ever really be French. Or as Pundit put it, does skin color matter? And are mono-ethnic societies broadly better?

I have a bunch of extended family who live in Korea, which is a largely mono-ethnic society as Japan largely is. So I have a pretty good idea about what life is like there. In the bigger picture, no, I don't feel like life is better there than in the U.S. They have some things better, and some things worse.

To everyone who asks that question I will believe them when they heckle every single non-White organization until they close their doors forever because no one asks that question without making a statement.

Sorry, I misquoted RPGPundit there. It was GeekyBugle who paraphrased Pundit saying "The skin color doesn't matter, the culture does" - while Pundit said "Ethnic replacement is meaningless. The danger is Civilizational Replacement."

I phrased it as a question, and you're right that I gave an implicit stance there that I agree with them. But you can have your opinion on the issue and phrase it differently, and I hope it didn't come across as a personal attack.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 24, 2022, 08:45:37 PM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: SHARK on March 25, 2022, 01:53:50 AM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?

Greetings!

IN A BLINK OF AN EYE!--and cheerfully so, my brother!

WHY? Well, while skin colour and ethnicity are obvious and even important details and aspects--of deeper importance and meaning is shared culture; shared religion; holding closely-aligned morals, ethics, values, and principles. Such is the foundation of love, brotherhood, and friendship which reaches beyond outward appearances, or even the details and dynamics of being raised originally in a somewhat different ethnic community or culture.

The soul, spirit, and character of an individual can transcend the perceived "Foreign" or "Out-Group" differences of race and ethnicity.

When I was in the Marine Corps, many of my closest friends were Mexican. A few were Puerto Rican, and Cuban. We were sympatico, and brothers. I-and they--would take a bullet for one another. Similarly, a Mexican girlfriend's father, and family--brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles--all genuinely embraced me, and pointedly welcomed me into their homes, and into their lives. I was embraced as one of them, and like a son or brother. (Even though my Spanish was broken and full of Gringo; *Laughing*). They cheerfully translated Spanish for me from family conversations, favourite expressions, or the commentary going on in a *Fusbol* game on TV, or while we watched a Telenovella. One and all, they came to *Know Me*. They knew I was traditional-minded; conservative; hard-working; honest; sincere, honourable, and trustworthy. The fact that I was raised as a Catholic, and a veteran of the Marine Corps was icing on the cake, so to speak.

All of this, and more, sharing their lives, their friendship, love and acceptance--embracing people of like mind and kindred spirits.

I would live with such like-minded Mexicans in a heartbeat, by preference. Even some of the cultural nuances that are different from present-day, corrupted, feminized and debauched white Anglo culture in America are things that I appreciate and respect. I enjoy the clothing styles and preferences; the music; the food especially. *Laughing*

All of that, and more, is why I would embrace living amongst like-minded Mexicans instead of Liberal, white morons. Without hesitation, Hermano!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 01:55:28 AM
  Pundit says that while living in a country that is not very diverse, being 88 percent white. 
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2022, 02:11:51 AM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?

Greetings!

IN A BLINK OF AN EYE!--and cheerfully so, my brother!

WHY? Well, while skin colour and ethnicity are obvious and even important details and aspects--of deeper importance and meaning is shared culture; shared religion; holding closely-aligned morals, ethics, values, and principles. Such is the foundation of love, brotherhood, and friendship which reaches beyond outward appearances, or even the details and dynamics of being raised originally in a somewhat different ethnic community or culture.

The soul, spirit, and character of an individual can transcend the perceived "Foreign" or "Out-Group" differences of race and ethnicity.

When I was in the Marine Corps, many of my closest friends were Mexican. A few were Puerto Rican, and Cuban. We were sympatico, and brothers. I-and they--would take a bullet for one another. Similarly, a Mexican girlfriend's father, and family--brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and uncles--all genuinely embraced me, and pointedly welcomed me into their homes, and into their lives. I was embraced as one of them, and like a son or brother. (Even though my Spanish was broken and full of Gringo; *Laughing*). They cheerfully translated Spanish for me from family conversations, favourite expressions, or the commentary going on in a *Fusbol* game on TV, or while we watched a Telenovella. One and all, they came to *Know Me*. They knew I was traditional-minded; conservative; hard-working; honest; sincere, honourable, and trustworthy. The fact that I was raised as a Catholic, and a veteran of the Marine Corps was icing on the cake, so to speak.

All of this, and more, sharing their lives, their friendship, love and acceptance--embracing people of like mind and kindred spirits.

I would live with such like-minded Mexicans in a heartbeat, by preference. Even some of the cultural nuances that are different from present-day, corrupted, feminized and debauched white Anglo culture in America are things that I appreciate and respect. I enjoy the clothing styles and preferences; the music; the food especially. *Laughing*

All of that, and more, is why I would embrace living amongst like-minded Mexicans instead of Liberal, white morons. Without hesitation, Hermano!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So, unless we're talking primitive minds or out and out racists, in the scale of things we consider to define who is in our tribe skin color matters way less than shared values.

Only person in my 55 years I heard talking down to a mexican "indian" with openly racist language was a black cuban woman. And yet, I would happyly exchange all the mexican commies for all the freedom loving cubans, reserving the right to kick out the racist ones, those can go live in Canada or some other woke shithole.

Sadly we've allowed them too much leeway and now we're deeply divided with racial hatred, how stupid to allow them to pit us against each other while they rob us blind, steal our God given rights and sell our descendants future to China.

And I'm still for closing our southern border, kicking out all the invaders and for the USA doing the same.

And for the USA to Drone the fucking Cartels.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:04:41 AM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?

Given how many Latino's are now going GOP, that's a very relevant question.

I know my answer: if you could ship every last woke white leftist out of the United States, and replace them with an equal number (or more likely, a greater number, because there's way more of them) of anti-communist Latinos, you'd have a much better nation.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 03:15:05 AM
  Pundit says that while living in a country that is not very diverse, being 88 percent white.

Uruguay is not as diverse as, say, Canada or the USA. But it is still an immigrant society; its largest difference from other Latin American countries is that it has no pureblooded natives, though in the countryside there's a lot of people with native descent. But it also has a large mix of Spaniards, Basques, Italians, French, various types of Slavs, Syrians, Armenians, Jews, Germans, Swiss, English/Irish/Scottish descendants, a growing population of Asians (mainly Korean and Chinese, some Japanese too), and a significant population (mainly in the capital) of black Latinos descended from former (escaped) Brazilian slaves. While there was relatively little cultural immigration in the latter half of the 20th century, in the last 15 years or so it has now seen a large influx of Cubans and Venezuelans escaping from the socialist hellholes their homelands became.

The coherence of the country is not because of ethnic purity nor is it somehow because of diversity, but rather because of Uruguayan republican values. Uruguay as a nation is not affected by the same elite self-loathing that you see in North America, and the people here have no trouble incorporating the various cultural traits because everyone who lives here believes in the fundamental principles of a democratic, secular and republican state.

The disruptive effect here is nothing to do with ethnic strife; inasmuch as it exists, it is the fault of old-school Marxist class warfare.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: oggsmash on March 25, 2022, 03:42:19 AM
  Pundit says that while living in a country that is not very diverse, being 88 percent white.

Uruguay is not as diverse as, say, Canada or the USA. But it is still an immigrant society; its largest difference from other Latin American countries is that it has no pureblooded natives, though in the countryside there's a lot of people with native descent. But it also has a large mix of Spaniards, Basques, Italians, French, various types of Slavs, Syrians, Armenians, Jews, Germans, Swiss, English/Irish/Scottish descendants, a growing population of Asians (mainly Korean and Chinese, some Japanese too), and a significant population (mainly in the capital) of black Latinos descended from former (escaped) Brazilian slaves. While there was relatively little cultural immigration in the latter half of the 20th century, in the last 15 years or so it has now seen a large influx of Cubans and Venezuelans escaping from the socialist hellholes their homelands became.

The coherence of the country is not because of ethnic purity nor is it somehow because of diversity, but rather because of Uruguayan republican values. Uruguay as a nation is not affected by the same elite self-loathing that you see in North America, and the people here have no trouble incorporating the various cultural traits because everyone who lives here believes in the fundamental principles of a democratic, secular and republican state.

The disruptive effect here is nothing to do with ethnic strife; inasmuch as it exists, it is the fault of old-school Marxist class warfare.

   When you start taking on the levels of immigration the USA does, especially of the illegal kind, get back to me on how that coherence works out.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2022, 04:10:04 AM
  Pundit says that while living in a country that is not very diverse, being 88 percent white.

Uruguay is not as diverse as, say, Canada or the USA. But it is still an immigrant society; its largest difference from other Latin American countries is that it has no pureblooded natives, though in the countryside there's a lot of people with native descent. But it also has a large mix of Spaniards, Basques, Italians, French, various types of Slavs, Syrians, Armenians, Jews, Germans, Swiss, English/Irish/Scottish descendants, a growing population of Asians (mainly Korean and Chinese, some Japanese too), and a significant population (mainly in the capital) of black Latinos descended from former (escaped) Brazilian slaves. While there was relatively little cultural immigration in the latter half of the 20th century, in the last 15 years or so it has now seen a large influx of Cubans and Venezuelans escaping from the socialist hellholes their homelands became.

The coherence of the country is not because of ethnic purity nor is it somehow because of diversity, but rather because of Uruguayan republican values. Uruguay as a nation is not affected by the same elite self-loathing that you see in North America, and the people here have no trouble incorporating the various cultural traits because everyone who lives here believes in the fundamental principles of a democratic, secular and republican state.

The disruptive effect here is nothing to do with ethnic strife; inasmuch as it exists, it is the fault of old-school Marxist class warfare.

After 500 years of interbreeding? There's not a single one of those outside maybe the Amazonian Jungle.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 25, 2022, 08:06:59 AM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?
Do you always send slow pitches over the plate like that, Geeky? :D

(And for the record, I'm with SHARK on this one.)
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Lynn on March 25, 2022, 01:08:03 PM
Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?
There's every evidence that first generation  Latinos (let's expand it beyond just Mexicans) that fit that bill have contributed in positive ways to the US.

I have cousins by marriage that were (and are) exactly that and, as a result, the greatest number of people with college degrees in my family at the time (this is during the 1960s-70s) were Spanish speakers. They fled communism, dove into the 'melting pot' and became very successful, especially in the emerging tech industry. They tend to vote conservative. They are the very model of the sort of people that benefit the US.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: RPGPundit on March 25, 2022, 05:12:53 PM
  Pundit says that while living in a country that is not very diverse, being 88 percent white.

Uruguay is not as diverse as, say, Canada or the USA. But it is still an immigrant society; its largest difference from other Latin American countries is that it has no pureblooded natives, though in the countryside there's a lot of people with native descent. But it also has a large mix of Spaniards, Basques, Italians, French, various types of Slavs, Syrians, Armenians, Jews, Germans, Swiss, English/Irish/Scottish descendants, a growing population of Asians (mainly Korean and Chinese, some Japanese too), and a significant population (mainly in the capital) of black Latinos descended from former (escaped) Brazilian slaves. While there was relatively little cultural immigration in the latter half of the 20th century, in the last 15 years or so it has now seen a large influx of Cubans and Venezuelans escaping from the socialist hellholes their homelands became.

The coherence of the country is not because of ethnic purity nor is it somehow because of diversity, but rather because of Uruguayan republican values. Uruguay as a nation is not affected by the same elite self-loathing that you see in North America, and the people here have no trouble incorporating the various cultural traits because everyone who lives here believes in the fundamental principles of a democratic, secular and republican state.

The disruptive effect here is nothing to do with ethnic strife; inasmuch as it exists, it is the fault of old-school Marxist class warfare.

After 500 years of interbreeding? There's not a single one of those outside maybe the Amazonian Jungle.

You know what I mean, dude. I mean people that would count as "indios", or even "mestizos".
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 01:43:40 PM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?
Do you always send slow pitches over the plate like that, Geeky? :D

(And for the record, I'm with SHARK on this one.)

Seeing as I knew the answer and wanted him to write it for a latter argument of mine I would say I throwed a curve ball with speed change. XD
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 01:50:06 PM
  Pundit says that while living in a country that is not very diverse, being 88 percent white.

Uruguay is not as diverse as, say, Canada or the USA. But it is still an immigrant society; its largest difference from other Latin American countries is that it has no pureblooded natives, though in the countryside there's a lot of people with native descent. But it also has a large mix of Spaniards, Basques, Italians, French, various types of Slavs, Syrians, Armenians, Jews, Germans, Swiss, English/Irish/Scottish descendants, a growing population of Asians (mainly Korean and Chinese, some Japanese too), and a significant population (mainly in the capital) of black Latinos descended from former (escaped) Brazilian slaves. While there was relatively little cultural immigration in the latter half of the 20th century, in the last 15 years or so it has now seen a large influx of Cubans and Venezuelans escaping from the socialist hellholes their homelands became.

The coherence of the country is not because of ethnic purity nor is it somehow because of diversity, but rather because of Uruguayan republican values. Uruguay as a nation is not affected by the same elite self-loathing that you see in North America, and the people here have no trouble incorporating the various cultural traits because everyone who lives here believes in the fundamental principles of a democratic, secular and republican state.

The disruptive effect here is nothing to do with ethnic strife; inasmuch as it exists, it is the fault of old-school Marxist class warfare.

After 500 years of interbreeding? There's not a single one of those outside maybe the Amazonian Jungle.

You know what I mean, dude. I mean people that would count as "indios", or even "mestizos".

Mestizos, by definition aren't pureblooded, as for who counts as Indio? It depends, for the census here (yes, we now care about your skin color because our government is anti-racist) it's based on self identification. So I could answer that I identify as Maya and be counted as such even if no one looking at me would guess I do descend from Mayas too.

Like I said, outside of MAYBE the amazonian Jungle, there's not a single "pureblooded" "native".
Also, how many centuries have my ancestors to have lived here before I too count as a native? Almost 600 years now and for some bizarre reason the CRT ppl  insist I'm not and you're falling into the trap of using their language/definitions.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on March 27, 2022, 01:51:34 PM
Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?
There's every evidence that first generation  Latinos (let's expand it beyond just Mexicans) that fit that bill have contributed in positive ways to the US.

I have cousins by marriage that were (and are) exactly that and, as a result, the greatest number of people with college degrees in my family at the time (this is during the 1960s-70s) were Spanish speakers. They fled communism, dove into the 'melting pot' and became very successful, especially in the emerging tech industry. They tend to vote conservative. They are the very model of the sort of people that benefit the US.

Up until their descendants get indoctrinated in your school system and then they become tools of the racist commie scum.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: whatsleft on April 28, 2022, 11:11:34 AM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?

Given how many Latino's are now going GOP, that's a very relevant question.

I know my answer: if you could ship every last woke white leftist out of the United States, and replace them with an equal number (or more likely, a greater number, because there's way more of them) of anti-communist Latinos, you'd have a much better nation.

Just to let you notice that the equivalence between left and woke maybe is real in US (but I've my doubt). In Europe great part of the left isn't woke at all. So it is a fact that equalizing a big bunch of people (the leftist) with the woke people is like saying that all right people are subhuman mysoginist and racist idiots.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 11:53:51 AM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?

Given how many Latino's are now going GOP, that's a very relevant question.

I know my answer: if you could ship every last woke white leftist out of the United States, and replace them with an equal number (or more likely, a greater number, because there's way more of them) of anti-communist Latinos, you'd have a much better nation.

Just to let you notice that the equivalence between left and woke maybe is real in US (but I've my doubt). In Europe great part of the left isn't woke at all. So it is a fact that equalizing a big bunch of people (the leftist) with the woke people is like saying that all right people are subhuman mysoginist and racist idiots.

  Not really, the far left, the "woke" is about 8 percent.  That is a shitload of people.  The far right, which political "experts" include evangelists into to get numbers are 6 percent, and that far right had crazy ideas like the way of American Life was under threat.  The number of racists or woman haters is a tiny number.   So it is not really a fair thing to say.  Maybe saying people who would protest and abortion clinic is an apt comparison (as that is a minority on the right, but definitely substantial, maybe 10 percent) but honestly, these are already lumped into the "far right", so 6 percent and better used as a comparison or bad equivalence IMO.   

   So I think there is going to be a big divergence in Europe between woke and left (as the woke seems largely an American born and indoctrinated illness) and not as big in the USA, which shows in the high population (8 percent) who are openly woke all the time.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2022, 02:15:23 PM
Greetings!

Of course, *skin colour* matters. Just like everything else that goes into particular cultural and tribal identities.

You have people over in the Middle East and Europe that can identify people by the shape of their eyes, their nose, or their ears--and we cry about skin colour?

In Asia, Chinese or Japanese set themselves apart from the "Jungle Asians" as I have heard them self-reference themselves. They not only look at skin colour, but also the shape of the eye, the nose, the ears, forehead, whatever.

So, yeah. In-Group and Out-Groups. Anthropology 101. Members of the In-Group are good and better than members of the Out Group. Skin colour is merely a more obvious sign of difference. But humans come up with or notice a dozen other details that mark whoever as being from the Out Group. Historically, the majority have always preferred members of the In Group.

That's just the way things are.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Tell me hermano, would you exchange all the white libtards for non woke non socialist brown mexicans willing to embrace the USA and it's founding principles? WHY?

Given how many Latino's are now going GOP, that's a very relevant question.

I know my answer: if you could ship every last woke white leftist out of the United States, and replace them with an equal number (or more likely, a greater number, because there's way more of them) of anti-communist Latinos, you'd have a much better nation.

Just to let you notice that the equivalence between left and woke maybe is real in US (but I've my doubt). In Europe great part of the left isn't woke at all. So it is a fact that equalizing a big bunch of people (the leftist) with the woke people is like saying that all right people are subhuman mysoginist and racist idiots.

Tell me something, who gets the coverage, who holds power, who is the one being pushed to the front by the left?

It's not the not woke left, nobody listens to them, not in the USA, not in México and not in Spain nor the UK or the rest of the EU. Whenever they dare speak they are branded as far right extremists. I know because I know some non-woke socialists I follow Spanish politics cuz it's my other nationality, Mexican politics because I live here, USA politics because it will impact us, and the same goes for the rest of the EU.

So sorry not sorry, but since the non-woke lefties are ignored by left politicians, "journalists", governments, etc they do represent the left.

But what I have always said: The Left isn't Liberal, never was and never will. They are commies.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Pat on April 28, 2022, 02:21:32 PM

But what I have always said: The Left isn't Liberal, never was and never will. They are commies.
Yes, liberalism and communism are polar opposites. It's weird that they've gotten conflated.
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2022, 02:23:59 PM

But what I have always said: The Left isn't Liberal, never was and never will. They are commies.
Yes, liberalism and communism are polar opposites. It's weird that they've gotten conflated.

Exactly, one of the corner stones of Liberalism is owning yourself, ergo private property, you can't be a socialist (wanna be commie)/commie and a liberal, that's an oxymoron almost as big as Anarcho-(Leftism).
Title: Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
Post by: Chris24601 on April 29, 2022, 05:38:31 PM

But what I have always said: The Left isn't Liberal, never was and never will. They are commies.
Yes, liberalism and communism are polar opposites. It's weird that they've gotten conflated.

Exactly, one of the corner stones of Liberalism is owning yourself, ergo private property, you can't be a socialist (wanna be commie)/commie and a liberal, that's an oxymoron almost as big as Anarcho-(Leftism).
The Left loves to twist language; War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Truth is a Lie... and that they are Liberals or seek any type of genuine progress.