This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"  (Read 8284 times)

Wrath of God

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
  • Fearful Symmetry
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2022, 09:12:20 PM »
Quote
The people of France are being systematically replaced and displaced

People of France are being systematically replaced and displaced for one simple reason - they refuse to breed. No one is really stopping them, they are just enlightened progressives and it's their undeniable human right to refuse to engage in sexual procreation for sake of prolonging nation's existence.
If demographic stats of native French (as much as we can call this weird Celtic by blood, quasi-Latin by language and German by political origin state - native in any way :P) were sustainable, no one would let migrants - not that many. But in late XX century - France, Germany and other rich countries actively sought migrants because their societies grew old, lazy and childless.

Quote
Yes, Japan has remained opposed to immigration, so they are still more genetically distinct than countries with lots of immigration like the U.S. I don't think that is a great success story, though. Japan had a powerful economy within its first generation, but at present it has an aging population and very negative population growth. It has steadily been losing its economic edge since the 1990s.

And it's slowly slowly getting more migrants because it's apparently easier than making own people sustainable.

"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47753
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2022, 10:13:21 PM »
France is a Republic. You're French if you adopt French culture and values. The current right-wing candidate for the French Presidency is an incredible booster of French civilization, certainly the most French person running, and ethnically he's an Algerian Jew.

Ethnic replacement is meaningless. The danger is Civilizational Replacement.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9962
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2022, 10:28:20 PM »
AtomicPope - it seems you're using "genocide" such that if two populations mix and intermarry, then it is "genocide" because the distinct genotypes become mixed, but that's a very non-standard use of the term. In common usage, "genocide" only refers to killing people because of their genetics.

You're all over the place, no wonder you're confused.  The UN definition of genocide is not constrained to "killing people because of their genetics", and with good reason.   Not to mention, talking about Japan's economic decline as if conceptual economics is more important than the existence of actual people is pathological.  It's even more ludicrous considering the current economic decline in many places that don't have Japan's apparent problem of living a long, healthy life.

The U.N. definition is broader than typical usage, but it still doesn't support your usage. The U.N. definition includes things like forced sterilization and internment camps besides killing, but it definitely does *not* include mixing and intermarriage. Here's the U.N. definition:

Quote
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

None of these describe Algerian immigration into France. I personally don't see intermarriage and mingling of genotypes as "genocide", especially since by that definition I'm personally the product of genocide as my parents are different races (Korean and English). And I don't see that Japan is objectively better in any way than more genetically mixed countries. Japan does have a long life expectancy, but I don't think that shows anything more than that one trait. Within the U.S., for example, California and Hawaii have the highest life expectancy of any states. Does that indicate general superiority of those states compared to others?

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 2339
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2022, 08:05:17 AM »
Quote
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Just an observation, but the current crop of Western leaders are enforcing economic policies designed to crush and impoverish the population, including rampant inflation, food and fuel shortages, endless waves of foreign invaders they give preferential benefits to even as they drive down wages for natives and encouraging violence against segments of the population that includes billions of dollars in property damage and mirders for which the culprits are not held responsible) such that a large portion of the younger generations have decided to forgo having children because they fear for what their children’s lives would be.

How is that NOT genocide by definition D?

Throw in mandatory pre-K through grade 12 and the indoctrination factory that is Leftist education and I’d say you have a decent case under definition E too.

crkrueger

  • Hulk in the Vineyard
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12502
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2022, 08:40:07 AM »
https://www.newsweek.com/macron-france-reject-american-woke-culture-thats-racializing-their-country-1634706

Does this mean "Freedom fries" will return to be called "French fries"?

One thing I find interesting is that the french thinks that the woke makes the problems worse by racializing disparities, creating a divide instead of working together to solve the issues.

Which of course, it does.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Wrath of God

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
  • Fearful Symmetry
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2022, 05:57:42 PM »
Quote
Ethnic replacement is meaningless. The danger is Civilizational Replacement.

Those goes toe to toe. Civilisation that promises golden mountains in theory but in practice generates aging childless society, will be saw by barbarians merely as a spoil to plunder.
Justly so - civilisations prevailed over hunter gatherers not because of fancy philosophies but because they were well biologically superior - so populations that adopted them grew stronger and more numerous, and in XXI century we have just a handful of pre-agrarian societies in the whole wide world, with most even tribal groups adopting various forms of farming and animal husbandry.

But it's judged by results, and if result is decadence, then those still vital will have only scorn for you.
Culture cannot exist without people forming it - unless you transform enough foreigners into actual inheritors of your culture - like Rome for example - and IMHO Western Civilisation for various reasons is maybe halfway done compared to Rome and it's Romance language zone.

Quote
How is that NOT genocide by definition D?

It may be or not, but generally not every act with genocidal results will be considered genocide as crime. Purpose matter.
We consider Mec Jeghern or Holocaust to be genocides due to quite evident purposeful actions with basically open intent of driving specific groups to extinction.
It's harder to prove such intent - when there is no direct state violence - and action is merely turning country inside out shitty place to live in. And there are many other reasons to make country shitty - financial scams or even just plain stupidity.

"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon.”

"And I will strike down upon thee
With great vengeance and furious anger"


"Molti Nemici, Molto Onore"

Lynn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1926
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2022, 07:16:59 PM »
Yes, Japan has remained opposed to immigration, so they are still more genetically distinct than countries with lots of immigration like the U.S. I don't think that is a great success story, though. Japan had a powerful economy within its first generation, but at present it has an aging population and very negative population growth. It has steadily been losing its economic edge since the 1990s.

They had an interesting plan that I believe got temporarily shelved because of COVID. It would allow companies to get more flexible work visas for foreign workers in key areas like STEM. A worker can bring with them a spouse and children, but not other relations. If they can maintain this status for five years, then they can take a step onto 'permanent residence status,' which then would allow them to apply for citizenship. The thought is that if they can be good members of society for at least five years, they could be a valuable addition. This would especially allow for lots of nurses and physical therapists to help care for the aging population.
Lynn Fredricks
Entrepreneurial Hat Collector

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9962
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2022, 07:56:37 PM »
France is a Republic. You're French if you adopt French culture and values. The current right-wing candidate for the French Presidency is an incredible booster of French civilization, certainly the most French person running, and ethnically he's an Algerian Jew.

Ethnic replacement is meaningless. The danger is Civilizational Replacement.
Culture cannot exist without people forming it - unless you transform enough foreigners into actual inheritors of your culture - like Rome for example - and IMHO Western Civilisation for various reasons is maybe halfway done compared to Rome and it's Romance language zone.

I think RPGPundit's point is that immigrants like Eric Zemmour (the Algerian candidate he mentioned) have inherited French values. I don't know enough to have a strong opinion on France specifically, but I agree that genetic group isn't important to culture.

The U.S. has had significant ethnic shift during the 19th century when it went from being primarily Anglo-Saxon to an ethnic mix of primarily non-English speakers such as Italians, Germans, Poles, etc. - as well as Catholics and Jews. There was a major anti-immigration push in the 1920s against the immigration trend, which cut off immigration for decades. However, I think we've shifted to thinking that those immigrants have inherited the culture - and it isn't anti-American to celebrate Saint Patrick's Day (for example).

AtomicPope

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • For a Brighter tomorrow...
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2022, 12:54:02 AM »
AtomicPope - it seems you're using "genocide" such that if two populations mix and intermarry, then it is "genocide" because the distinct genotypes become mixed, but that's a very non-standard use of the term. In common usage, "genocide" only refers to killing people because of their genetics.

You're all over the place, no wonder you're confused.  The UN definition of genocide is not constrained to "killing people because of their genetics", and with good reason.   Not to mention, talking about Japan's economic decline as if conceptual economics is more important than the existence of actual people is pathological.  It's even more ludicrous considering the current economic decline in many places that don't have Japan's apparent problem of living a long, healthy life.

The U.N. definition is broader than typical usage, but it still doesn't support your usage. The U.N. definition includes things like forced sterilization and internment camps besides killing, but it definitely does *not* include mixing and intermarriage. Here's the U.N. definition:

Quote
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

None of these describe Algerian immigration into France. I personally don't see intermarriage and mingling of genotypes as "genocide", especially since by that definition I'm personally the product of genocide as my parents are different races (Korean and English). And I don't see that Japan is objectively better in any way than more genetically mixed countries. Japan does have a long life expectancy, but I don't think that shows anything more than that one trait. Within the U.S., for example, California and Hawaii have the highest life expectancy of any states. Does that indicate general superiority of those states compared to others?

Japan is objectively safer, which on Mazlo's hierarchy of needs establishes a fundamental need that "more genetically mixed" countries do not.

Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

As for immigration to France, the UN Declaration includes ethnicity, nationality, and race without conflating them.  It was written at a time when people weren't so indoctrinated they understood differences and didn't openly engage in DoubleThink to destroy those differences.  The French government is dedicated to destroying French culture, which is precisely what "multiculturalism" is designed to do.  The intended destruction and replacement of culture qualifies as genocide, because it's erasing fundamental aspects of ethnic and national groups.  As for "genetically mixing", the French government is also determined to erase the French people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8yaiN6ew_g

When talking to his peers and the donors a politician is more honest.  The goal is intentional, and the goal is an erasure.  Combined with multiculturalism, it's a total erasure as neither the people nor their language or culture will exist.  Smugly proclaiming that France has a piece of paper and therefore anyone you wave a magic wand over becomes "French" is the arrogance of a super villain.  People who lived in an area for thousands of years with a shared genetic, linguistic, and cultural history have a right to exist without the consent of paper documents, internet commenters, politicians, oligarchs, and whether or not the current regime calls itself a "Republic" and is determined to replace them.

SHARK

  • Great White Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3827
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2022, 11:36:54 AM »
Greetings!

Yeah, regardless of whatever kind of government a nation-state has--or in the case of France having a "Republic"--mere citizenship doesn't make you FRENCH.

French people are a distinctive blood, ethnic group, language, and culture. Just as if you were to move to Japan; learn the Japanese language; embrace Japanese culture. You might be made or classified as a Japanese Citizen--but none of that would suffice to make you *Japanese*

Really, virtually all nation-states are ethno-states, except for America. Russia, England, France, Germany, Japan, China, Mexico, Brazil, Mali, Kenya, and on and on. French are a distinct people just like Japanese.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security bred from familiar things and familiar ways. It narrows the mind. Weakens the body. And robs the soul of spirit and determination. Comfort is neither welcome nor tolerated here."

"Courage is not the absence of fear, but is doing what you have to, in spite of the fear."
"Let Death and Fire Be Their Portion!"
"Delenda Est Parthia!"

Lynn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1926
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2022, 12:59:53 PM »
Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

What makes Japan safe has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with "don't disrupt the good of the group" mentality which is pervasive in all parts of society. Legal punishments are severe and they still have the death penalty. Ex-cons don't get treated as if they never committed crimes (as in some European countries) but are screwed forever.

If you scroll back up to my point about the (currently shelved because of COVID) immigration reform plan in Japan, you'll see it has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with keeping your nose clean. There isn't any chain migration. Being born on Japanese soil doesn't get you citizenship. You basically have to prove it by example.
Lynn Fredricks
Entrepreneurial Hat Collector

The Spaniard

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2022, 03:40:27 PM »
Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

What makes Japan safe has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with "don't disrupt the good of the group" mentality which is pervasive in all parts of society. Legal punishments are severe and they still have the death penalty. Ex-cons don't get treated as if they never committed crimes (as in some European countries) but are screwed forever.

If you scroll back up to my point about the (currently shelved because of COVID) immigration reform plan in Japan, you'll see it has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with keeping your nose clean. There isn't any chain migration. Being born on Japanese soil doesn't get you citizenship. You basically have to prove it by example.
Which is the way it should be in the US too

AtomicPope

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • For a Brighter tomorrow...
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2022, 08:01:51 PM »
Everyone is safer walking down the streets in Tokyo Japan than they are in Paris France, London England, or any major city in the "more genetically mixed" America. It's an objective need that everyone desires, yet if they were to move to let's say Tokyo and "genetically mix it", that would be objectively worse for the Japanese people.  That's something they don't need.  They don't need to be made objectively worse so people they have no connection to can be "uplifted", which seems to be a burden only imposed on the so-called "winners" of WW2.

What makes Japan safe has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with "don't disrupt the good of the group" mentality which is pervasive in all parts of society. Legal punishments are severe and they still have the death penalty. Ex-cons don't get treated as if they never committed crimes (as in some European countries) but are screwed forever.

If you scroll back up to my point about the (currently shelved because of COVID) immigration reform plan in Japan, you'll see it has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with keeping your nose clean. There isn't any chain migration. Being born on Japanese soil doesn't get you citizenship. You basically have to prove it by example.

The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/this-firm-hired-1-000-employees-in-india-after-ceo-fired-900-staffers-over-zoom-11644902990570.html

Indian CEO who we are assured is 100% American because someone waved a magic wand over him denigrated, insulted, and fired 900 Americans during a zoom call.  Then he hired 1,000 Indians.  The Putnam study was right again.

If we were to talk about this openly then "protecting the good of the group" would be calling everyone "racist" and doing nothing about it because the "group" is Indian, and not a piece of paper.

Lynn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1926
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2022, 01:39:44 AM »
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663

Just reading the interview on NPR, he points to various groups that seem to maintain cohesion, such as through church or being in the army, but that it has fallen away in general. It is easy to see that is a problem of the brand of multiculturalism of the last 30 odd years and not necessarily based on what existed prior - the 'salad bowl' vs the melting pot. So are you saying that it never existed at all in the United States?

As for cohesion in Japan, while a face in the crowd might stand out, so long as they are surrounded by others that accept them, they are sufficiently 'validated' because some portion of the group demonstrates acceptance, while at the same time, is expected to conform. That's why relationships are critical in Asia and especially true in Japan.
Lynn Fredricks
Entrepreneurial Hat Collector

AtomicPope

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
  • For a Brighter tomorrow...
Re: France rejects "woke" culture. Claiming it is Americas worst "export"
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2022, 02:42:05 AM »
The Putnam study was clear: diversity destroys trust and cohesion.  Robert Putnam originally set out to prove the opposite, with lots of platitudes and posturing that genetics doesn't exist and "muh values".  What he found is everything you're talking about only exists because of racial, ethnic, and cultural homogeneity.  When any area has multiple racial, ethnic, or cultural divisions then social cohesion and trust diminishes, both ingroup and outgroup.  Disrupting "the good of the group" exists only within an enclave.  Inevitably, the group is your natural kinship.  The "good group" is the group you belong to.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you're not Japanese when someone waves a magic wand over "muh citizen" from Africa or India and calls them Japanese.  Chain migration is merely a symptom, and there are other symptoms like this:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12802663

Just reading the interview on NPR, he points to various groups that seem to maintain cohesion, such as through church or being in the army, but that it has fallen away in general. It is easy to see that is a problem of the brand of multiculturalism of the last 30 odd years and not necessarily based on what existed prior - the 'salad bowl' vs the melting pot. So are you saying that it never existed at all in the United States?

As for cohesion in Japan, while a face in the crowd might stand out, so long as they are surrounded by others that accept them, they are sufficiently 'validated' because some portion of the group demonstrates acceptance, while at the same time, is expected to conform. That's why relationships are critical in Asia and especially true in Japan.

Considering how quickly anyone is fired, censored, and ostracized for going against the Official Narrative™, it's no small wonder he's still reciting the Litanies of Leftism.  After all, he didn't want to publish his work because it proved the Religion of Diversity is a false god.  The fact that he's on NPR at all is because he's not telling them their cult is destructive.  He didn't get invited to reveal his studies but to downplay them.