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Author Topic: "Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity  (Read 3626 times)

jhkim

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2016, 12:12:44 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;894175
The SOLUTION?  GMO foods. Thorium Nuclear Reactors.  Yes, also vastly improved solar technology.  Helium 3 from the moon.  3-D printers.  AI.  Going into space and "Imperialist"-ing the living fuck out of it.
And shitloads of stuff no one has even thought of yet, but yes, thinking.  Actually bothering to look for innovative solutions rather than just wanting to use environmental dangers as an excuse to impose a Collectivist Autocracy and force everyone to become less, and humanity to stunt itself.

I am in favor of GMO foods and nuclear energy. However, sometimes certain older technologies prove themselves unworkable and we can and should give them up. Some past examples:

Asbestos is fucking amazing stuff, and we still don't have anything quite as good for cheap fire resistance, but it also destroys lungs, so we gave it up. Radium watches were amazing, glowing brightly with no need for recharge, but likewise, they were given up.

In the 1960s and 1970s, spurring Earth Day, the U.S. passed a number of clean air acts to cut back on smog and acid rain - restricting industry, and they worked. Many manufacturers said that it would devastate industry, and maybe industry was hurt, but its a lot easier to breath.

Likewise, we largely stopped using DDT (for birds) and CFCs (for the ozone) - because they were proven harmful. And it worked.

Now it's about time we did the same with fossil fuels - coal in particular - and instead go with energy sources that don't dump into the environment. We've known about the adverse affects of air pollution for ages, but have just been saying "Well, as long as it doesn't get Beijing-level bad, then we can just live with the asthma and increased heart and lung disease."  The global warming effects just reinforce what we already knew - that fossil fuels dump emissions straight into the air, which can have wide-ranging effects.

More generally, doing things more efficiently to use less energy is always a plus. For example, rather than more plane flights and long commutes, there is an increasing move to videoconferencing and telecommuting. That's advanced technology enabling reduction of energy usage.


Quote from: jeff37923;894258
The first Earth Day was in 1970 and every prediction of doom made then and since then has been wrong. That is a shitty track record for predictive accuracy. It looks more like a scaremongering tactic used to drive funding into Green projects from gullible donors.

Yes, it is easy to find bad predictions, because most people in general are ill-informed, and this includes political activists. However, there have been just as many predictions of doom from anti-environmentalists, saying that if we enact environmentalist policies, then we will go back to living in caves.

Pundit's OP is exactly this sort of doom-saying that is full of shit - suggesting that environmentalism will lead to living in caves and our own extinction. It's exactly what you're referring to. A scaremongering tactic used to attack Green projects and drive away the gullible.

As others have noted, Beijing (and many other developing cities) has turned into a polluted wasteland. What they need to do is the same thing that the U.S. and other countries did - enact clean air standards and cut back on emissions, and take up projects to clean things up.

For the most part, our environmentalist regulation has had a positive effect. (Except that it has illogically held back nuclear power.)

thedungeondelver

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2016, 12:21:07 PM »
Quote from: Rincewind1;894228
I think by the time we can pull this off, we'll be well on, or even in, our way of being post - scarcity society.


Well...yeah, we're gonna need to be.  The carbon nanotube filaments for the solar shade we park in L5 over Venus to cool it down plus the hundreds of thousands of km. of wrappings for the comets we'll be bringing in to drop on V. will require it.  And since we're moving all that stuff into orbit by then we'll need a space elevator or at the very least a linear accelerator to get stuff into orbit instead of chemical rockets.

I'm telling you man a Venus terraforming project would be super cool.  Heh, it'd have to be super-cool! :D
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jeff37923

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2016, 12:30:21 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;894280

Ira Einhorn claims he invented Earth Day, he also claims the CIA killed Holly Maddux, so...yeah.


It is hard to say that a guy who kills and composts his girlfriend is mentally stable....

I keep finding a lot of sources claiming that Ira Einhorn was the co-founder of Earth Day.
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jeff37923

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2016, 12:47:34 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;894281
For the most part, our environmentalist regulation has had a positive effect. (Except that it has illogically held back nuclear power.)


I question that positive effect when I look at the Animas River or the people of Flint, Michigan drink a glass of water.
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crkrueger

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2016, 01:04:31 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;894287
Animas River
There's no doubt the EPA contractors should have investigated what the hell they were doing before they went in there with a frickin' backhoe, but...

"For years, the Gold King has leaked toxic water at a rate of 50 to 250 gallons a minute. The agency had planned to find the source of the leak in the hope of one day stanching it."  Sure Road to Hell and all that, but...

"In his first interview since the spill, the owner of the mine, Todd Hennis, said the spill was probably the fault of another mine company — the Sunnyside Gold Corporation — that had built retention walls inside an abandoned mine near the Gold King, part of an old cleanup agreement with the federal government. Once the Sunnyside mine filled with wastewater, the water probably spilled into the Gold King, and then into the Animas, Mr. Hennis said."

So improper cleanup and verification by the Gov't, which allowed the mining company to clean up it's own mess, and trusted them to do so, is what caused the situation to begin with that needed to be fixed. ;)

Quote from: jeff37923;894287
Flint, Michigan
So we start with an absolutely damning Smoking Gun...
"In June 2015, Miguel del Toral, a regulations manager in the EPA’s ground water and drinking water branch, sent a memo to his agency superiors titled: High Lead Levels in Flint, Michigan – Interim Report. In it, del Toral stated that there were elevated levels of lead in several Flint homes after the city began using the Flint River as its municipal water source. In one home, the lead levels amounted to 13,200 parts per billion. The level that triggers federal action is 15. Del Toral also wrote that Flint lacked a plan to adequately prevent corrosion in the lead pipes that delivered water to the city of almost 100,000 people."
...but...
"The EPA, however, did not act publicly on del Toral’s findings. Susan Hedman, the EPA administrator who resigned this week, has argued that her office could not legally make that information known. That claim was based on an interpretation of federal law that the EPA is responsible for establishing standards for states to follow, but doesn’t necessarily have the ability to force states to comply with those standards. As a result, Hedman says the EPA tried to apply behind-the-scenes pressure to get the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality to take action.

“Let’s be clear, the recommendation to DEQ (regarding the need for corrosion controls) occurred at higher and higher levels during this time period,” Hedman told the Detroit News on Jan. 12. She said Michigan officials rebuffed the EPA, insisting that such corrosion controls were not required by law. Hedman said she sought a legal opinion on whether the EPA could force the state’s hand, but it took months for an answer. (The EPA declined to make Hedman available to comment.) All the while, residents of Flint were drinking and bathing in toxic water."

So, the EPA could do absolutely nothing to force Michigan to fix the problem or even acknowledge it.

Not exactly rackin' up the argument for less regulation since in both the cases, from the sources you quoted, EPA's lack of power, and trust in corporate goodwill is what seems to be the problem.

Regulations aren't the problem.  Toothless, useless, corrupt, and pointless regulations are the problem.  Also spineless administrators who are too afraid to pick up the phone and drop a dime to the New York Times and the Washington Post.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 01:08:14 PM by CRKrueger »
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jeff37923

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2016, 01:21:52 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;894293
So, the EPA could do absolutely nothing to force Michigan to fix the problem or even acknowledge it.


Except they could not because their own regulations made it illegal to push MI to fix the problem. That is a pretty damning argument against the regulations right there. If the charter your agency is working under cannot allow that agency to legally do its job, then you have a problem with the regulatory standards you are operating under. The EPA needs a top down overhaul.
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jhkim

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2016, 01:55:29 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;894284
It is hard to say that a guy who kills and composts his girlfriend is mentally stable....

I keep finding a lot of sources claiming that Ira Einhorn was the co-founder of Earth Day.

I keep finding sources claiming that vaccines cause autism. That doesn't mean it's true.

As far as I can tell, all of the citations go back to Einhorn's own claims after his arrest in 1979. Nothing from anyone else at the time of the Earth Day founding describes him as a co-founder. He was an MC and promoter, but not originator of the idea.

Quote from: jhkim
For the most part, our environmentalist regulation has had a positive effect. (Except that it has illogically held back nuclear power.)

Quote from: jeff37923;894287
I question that positive effect when I look at the Animas River or the people of Flint, Michigan drink a glass of water.


Yeah, as CRKrueger said, the problems here were insufficient regulation and cleanup. Are you actually claiming that things would be better if there were no EPA? That would mean that (a) the mine was still a slowly toxin leak and timebomb waiting to burst; (b) the lead in Flint water had even less checking for it.

merc

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2016, 02:03:59 PM »
I forgot about Earth Day until I read something that mentioned it in the afternoon.

I didn't burn any tires, styrofoam, and truck batteries this year. :(

I've gotten to the point that I simply don't care. As long as there are lakes, forests, mountains, etc, for me to enjoy, cool. I won't be having kids, so what happens after I'm gone has absolutely zero importance to me.

In the present, I get really sick of the enviro-whackadoodles and their constant fearmongering and attempts to control and regulate every aspect of my existence. Especially when they try to kill jobs with garbage pseudoscience. The "blame humans for everything" crap is beyond tired, too.

Trond

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2016, 02:21:28 PM »
Quote from: merc;894316
I forgot about Earth Day until I read something that mentioned it in the afternoon.

I didn't burn any tires, styrofoam, and truck batteries this year. :(

I've gotten to the point that I simply don't care. As long as there are lakes, forests, mountains, etc, for me to enjoy, cool. I won't be having kids, so what happens after I'm gone has absolutely zero importance to me.

In the present, I get really sick of the enviro-whackadoodles and their constant fearmongering and attempts to control and regulate every aspect of my existence. Especially when they try to kill jobs with garbage pseudoscience. The "blame humans for everything" crap is beyond tired, too.


Except this isn't pseudoscience. It is real science. Often by the same people working on preserving the forests and lakes, and also on how we and other animals have evolved etc (I say this based on knowing some of these guys, Nils Christian Stenseth for instance).

Burning shit just to make a point, just because YOU aren't having babies.......well it kinda makes me glad that you aren't having any babies.

jeff37923

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2016, 03:32:06 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;894313
I keep finding sources claiming that vaccines cause autism. That doesn't mean it's true.


I keep finding sources that say that man-made climate change is not real as well. We could go tit for tat like this all day long.


Quote from: jhkim;894313
Are you actually claiming that things would be better if there were no EPA? That would mean that (a) the mine was still a slowly toxin leak and timebomb waiting to burst; (b) the lead in Flint water had even less checking for it.


Well, you went hyperbolic earlier than usual in this thread. No, fuckwit, I am not claiming that things would be better if the EPA did not exist. That is your own dumbass assessment of what I am saying. I am saying that the EPA needs a top down overhaul if their own charter makes it illegal to alert people to environmental problems like lead in the drinking water or if they bungle a toxic mine cleanup so badly that an entire river gets poisoned.
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jeff37923

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2016, 03:37:07 PM »
Quote from: Trond;894321
Except this isn't pseudoscience. It is real science. Often by the same people working on preserving the forests and lakes, and also on how we and other animals have evolved etc (I say this based on knowing some of these guys, Nils Christian Stenseth for instance).

Burning shit just to make a point, just because YOU aren't having babies.......well it kinda makes me glad that you aren't having any babies.


Yeah, I had a couple of college classes with guys who thought spiking trees was the best way to stop the logging industry in Washington. They firmly believed they were saving the environment.

If you don't know, spiking a tree is when you drive a steel railroad spike into a tree so that when a lumberjack uses his chainsaw to cut it down, the chain backlashes when it breaks as the chainsaw jumps back at the person holding it. Real humanitarians these environmental activists.
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dragoner
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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2016, 04:23:48 PM »
Funny, the op is like:

Deliverance II: In space, no one can hear you squeal.

Not all of want to live in some trashed shithole.
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jeff37923

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2016, 05:28:28 PM »
Quote from: dragoner;894356

Not all of want to live in some trashed shithole.


I agree, but the times have changed since the EPA was created. The Cuyahoga River no longer catches on fire for starters. So progress has been made, but you would think that we are a hairs breadth away from the destruction of all life on Earth if you listened to environmental radicals.
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Nexus

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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2016, 05:43:44 PM »
Radicals have extreme, often irrational outlooks and goals. What else is new? Every movement and ideology has radicals. They don't define the movement (that's why they're radicals) and using them as if they did is a fallacy at best.
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dragoner
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"Earth Day" And the Future or Doom of Humanity
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2016, 05:54:54 PM »
Quote from: jeff37923;894373
... if you listened to environmental radicals.


Which I don't, so no problem.

Thinking of some first contact scenario where the aliens find out we have trashed the planet would damage our prestige, or a least make them leery of us. That was part of the whole thing about Morning Light Mountain in Pandora's Star, that they had destroyed their world, and were doing it to the others they inhabited.

I just spent 4 hours yesterday taking care of my little 1/4 acre of this planet, mostly due to selfish reasons, as I don't want my yard or trees to reflect poorly on me.
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