This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: "Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day  (Read 4430 times)

Ian Warner

  • Craziest mofo in RPGs!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
    • http://shadow-world.blog.co.uk
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2011, 12:44:03 PM »
The Japanese were doing the same thing with an anime of his story at one point.
Directing Editor of Kittiwake Classics

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2011, 06:18:58 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;459927
What they should have done is re-framed the entire debate by force-feeding the point of "Do YOU think that drawing cartoons of Mohammad should be illegal in the west? YES or NO?".

Because its really that simple. If you think they should be legal, you can talk about how some might be in bad taste or not, and wax on endlessly about the motives of the people doing it, but you cannot fundamentally put yourself in opposition to an event designed to defend one's right to that freedom in our society.

I believe that drawing pictures of Mohammad should be legal, but I am totally against "Draw Mohammad Day" just as I would be against a "Burn The Flag Day".  It doesn't actually advance the cause of free speech - it's just saying stupid, pointlessly offensive shit.  

There is all sorts of things we could do to push the lines of free speech - like shouting "n***ger" over and over in public, walking around in Nazi uniforms, or handing out pamphlets encouraging pregnant women to have abortions.  These should be legal.  However, I don't think that deliberately pushing these boundaries just to push them advances the cause of free speech.

FASERIP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • F
  • Posts: 626
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2011, 06:30:50 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;460122
There is all sorts of things we could do to push the lines of free speech - like shouting "n***ger" over and over in public[...]

So now nigger has three gees in it? Or is it two ayes?

As to the topic at hand, Molly Norris has changed her name and is in hiding, on the advice of the FBI. Didn't see if this had been noted in the thread.
Don't forget rule no. 2, noobs. Seriously, just don't post there. Those guys are nuts.

Speak your mind here without fear! They'll just lock the thread anyway.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2011, 06:06:50 PM »
Quote from: Géza Echs;459994

Fair enough. I'm a bit gun-shy around arguments that -- however pithy -- lead to the iconoclastic destruction of the monasteries and the incalculable loss of ecclesiastical libraries.


There was quite a lot of turbulence to it. But papism had it coming by then.  Also, most things of value were not "lost", only "tranferred" in ownership.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2011, 06:09:01 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;460122
I believe that drawing pictures of Mohammad should be legal, but I am totally against "Draw Mohammad Day" just as I would be against a "Burn The Flag Day".  It doesn't actually advance the cause of free speech - it's just saying stupid, pointlessly offensive shit.  

There is all sorts of things we could do to push the lines of free speech - like shouting "n***ger" over and over in public, walking around in Nazi uniforms, or handing out pamphlets encouraging pregnant women to have abortions.  These should be legal.  However, I don't think that deliberately pushing these boundaries just to push them advances the cause of free speech.


I'm basically in agreement with  your position here.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2011, 06:10:23 PM »
As an amusing note to Tzunder's comments here, the earliest actual statues of the Buddha were very clearly identical to statues from the same region/period/style but depicting Alexander the Great.

So the first "face" we have of the Buddha is that of Alexander of Macedonia.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Ian Warner

  • Craziest mofo in RPGs!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
    • http://shadow-world.blog.co.uk
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2011, 06:26:39 PM »
Who according to historian Nigel Cawthorne is referenced in the Koran as "the Devil's General who shall lead his armies on judgement day"
Directing Editor of Kittiwake Classics

Géza Echs

  • Doctor of Weird Fiction
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2011, 06:52:05 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;460302
There was quite a lot of turbulence to it. But papism had it coming by then.  Also, most things of value were not "lost", only "tranferred" in ownership.

RPGPundit


"Papism" perhaps had it coming, but not the people of England (the deaths resulting from the Reformation were monstrous, as the later Protestant canonization of some of the more notable victims attests). And yes, some things were looted (either to the crown or to the commoners), but the histories are filled with sheer iconoclastic destruction as well. Especially when it came to the libraries; John Leland's The Laborious Journey is quite clear on how manuscripts were more often than not burned or, even worse, used as toilet paper (and Leland had literally no reason to lie, as his task was to survey and index the monastic library holdings for the king).

Pseudoephedrine
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5927
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2011, 08:42:53 PM »
Quote from: Ian Warner;460306
Who according to historian Nigel Cawthorne is referenced in the Koran as "the Devil's General who shall lead his armies on judgement day"


Just the opposite, really. The Dhul Qarnayn is the builder of a great wall that keeps Gog and Magog out.

Quote from: RPGPundit;460304
As an amusing note to Tzunder's comments here, the earliest actual statues of the Buddha were very clearly identical to statues from the same region/period/style but depicting Alexander the Great.

So the first "face" we have of the Buddha is that of Alexander of Macedonia.

RPGPundit


The tradition of realistic portrayals of the Buddha in statuary comes from the Greco-Bactrian kingdoms, which were founded by the remnants of Alexander's empire in Central Asia and are some of the most interesting places ever to have existed.

Chances are they don't resemble Alexander either, but are archetypal or exemplary faces the sculptors used when depicting any great hero.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

GameDaddy
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2931
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2011, 01:32:14 AM »
Quote from: Ian Warner;460306
Who according to historian Nigel Cawthorne is referenced in the Koran as "the Devil's General who shall lead his armies on judgement day"


Interesting, never knew the connection with Alexander and the Giant Buddhas... or were they really Boddisatva's?

Also Cawthorne got it wrong. The story is quite different according to Ptolemy I.
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2011, 01:55:15 AM »
Quote from: Géza Echs;460311
"Papism" perhaps had it coming, but not the people of England (the deaths resulting from the Reformation were monstrous, as the later Protestant canonization of some of the more notable victims attests). And yes, some things were looted (either to the crown or to the commoners), but the histories are filled with sheer iconoclastic destruction as well. Especially when it came to the libraries; John Leland's The Laborious Journey is quite clear on how manuscripts were more often than not burned or, even worse, used as toilet paper (and Leland had literally no reason to lie, as his task was to survey and index the monastic library holdings for the king).


Wait.. are you blaming the victims of Mary's anti-protestant persecutions on the Reformation?!!

Also, it should be noted that England's protestantism was one of the least bloody (certainly in comparison to France or Germany) and quickly developed into policies of tacit toleration.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 01:55:52 AM »
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;460344


The tradition of realistic portrayals of the Buddha in statuary comes from the Greco-Bactrian kingdoms, which were founded by the remnants of Alexander's empire in Central Asia and are some of the most interesting places ever to have existed.

Chances are they don't resemble Alexander either, but are archetypal or exemplary faces the sculptors used when depicting any great hero.


That's almost certainly true yes.

Also, as a big fan of eastern-western religious syncretism, I too am deeply enamoured by Greco-Buddhism.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Ian Warner

  • Craziest mofo in RPGs!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
    • http://shadow-world.blog.co.uk
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2011, 02:08:46 AM »
Quote from: GameDaddy;460378
Interesting, never knew the connection with Alexander and the Giant Buddhas... or were they really Boddisatva's?

Also Cawthorne got it wrong. The story is quite different according to Ptolemy I.


Not surprised. To be honest he's almost as much of a hack as me at times.

I mean putting George III in his book of Tyrants!

The guy wasn't a Tyrant: He had no real power and any failings over America were more incompetence than malice.
Directing Editor of Kittiwake Classics

GameDaddy
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2931
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2011, 03:02:42 AM »
The episode that follows recalls one of the most curious passages of the Pseudo-Callisthenes, where Alexander arrived at the confines of the country of the dead, wishes to enter and plunge into the darkness which separates it from the land of the living.

He marvelled at the beauty of the garden, from which the four rivers flowed, which are the Pison, the Gihon, the Tigris, and the Euphrates; they drank the water and rejoiced, for they were sweet. Thereupon they perceived the thick darkness, and they said, "We cannot enter there."

Menander said, "Let us take the brood-mares, let us mount them, and let their foals be kept back, while we plunge into the darkness."

They marvelled, for it was very dark, and they could not see the faces of their comrades. Alexander said, "Come with me, thou Menander, as well as Selpharios and Diatrophe." The mounted four brood-mares, while their foals remained in the light, so that each heard the voice of the other and plunged into darkness.

But they heard a voice which said, "Alexander and Menander, as well as Selpharios and Diatrophe, consider yourselves happy to have penetrated thus far."

Alexander said, "I shall not consider myself happy until I find that which I seek." He pushed forward a little, and he stopped with his mare.

The voice said to him a second time, "Consider thyself happy, oh Alexander."

But Alexander would not stop; he looked beneath the feet of his horses, and he perceived some lights. Alexander said "Let us take these lights, for they are precious stones." Selpharios stretched out his hand and took four, Menander Three, Diatrophe Two; as to Alexander, He stretched out his left hand and filled it, and he took three stones with his right hand, and immediately his left hand became as his right hand, and when he went to war, from that hour, he fought with his two hands.

Alexander smelt a strong perfume, but the voice that reached the ears of Alexander for the third time, "Consider thyself satisfied, oh Alexander. When a horse hastens too much in running, he stumbles and falls." And the voice spoke again, "I ask thee, what dost thou desire?"

Alexander said, "Give me power over the entire earth, and let my foes submit to me."

The voice said to him, "Since thou has not asked for a long life, but merely power over the whole world, thou shall see it with thine eyes, and thou shall be its lord; but when the morning sheds it light then..."

The voice probably announced immediate death, but either by strategem or prayer Alexander succeeded in obtaining a prolongation of life, which he made use of to visit the Brachmanes in their country. A leaf which we posses contains a description of their costumes, manners, and customs; but the lines are all so damaged that no consecutive text can be constructed from it. All that can be made out shows that it deals with the country of the Homerites, with Kalanos, of which the name is changed to Kalynas, with India, the bed of leaves used by Gymnosphistes, and their nudity; but the connection between the scanty gleanings is not traceable. The last of the fragments we found belongs to the end of the work. It relates, in terms that forcibly recall those employed by the Pseudo-Callisthenes, the intrigues that preceeded the death of Alexander, and the method by which Antipater prepared and poured out the poison by which the hero died.

He calmed the rage of Olympias and its anger with Antipater, by sending Krateros into Macedonia and Thessaly. When Antipater knew of the wrath of Alexander-- for he learned it from the men who had been licensed for military service-- Antipater conspired to slay Alexander, in order that he might escape great tortures; for he had heard and he knew what Alexander intended against him, on account of his arrogancy and intrigues. Now Alexander sent for a troop of archers, who were in considerable numbers, to come to Babylon. Among them there was a son of Antipater, named Julios, who waited on Alexander.

Antipater prepared a fatal poison, of which no vase, either of bronze or of pottery, could endure the strength, but all fell to pieces as soon as it touched them. When thereupon he had prepared it, he put it in an iron receptacle and gave it to Casandra, his son, whom he sent as a page to Alexander. Now it had chanced a few days before, that Alexander had struck the servitor Julios on the head with a staff, while he was seated, for a reason that arose from a want of care; for this the young man was furious, and willingly declared himself ready to commit the crime.

He took with him Mesios the Thessalonian, a friend of Alexander, and one of the judges whom he had punished for prevarication, and they agreed between them to cause Alexander to drink the potion.  
 
Epilogue (GameDaddy)
~ From the time Alexander is reputed to have visited the Garden of Eden shortly after conquering Babylon in 331 BC, until his death in Babylon in 323 BC eight short years elapsed. During that time during the Asian campaigns Ptolemy became one of his three leading generals. Ptolemy took Alexanders body by force, and fought his way through the other two greek generals armies in the desert, returning back to Egypt (Which Alexander had granted him after the successful campaign there in 333 BC), where he placed Alexanders remains on display in the tomb of Alexander in Alexandria, the city that Alexander founded. Alexander's remains remained on public display in the tomb of Alexander until about 440 A.D or so, some 770 years (777 years?)

Of the above account (a 13th century copy of the earlier Greek account), this was translated originally from Theban-Coptic manuscripts (probably from the library of Alexandria) and came into the possession of one Deir Amba Shenoudah, who in turn provided the manuscript copy of this account to Sir Gaston Maspero in Egypt in 1885.

Maspero subsequently published this as an addition to his collective 1882 work titled Les contes populaires de l'Egypte ancienne.

So Alexander visited the Garden of Eden, met an angel, and was granted his wish to rule the world. As soon as it was achieved however, he was then slain and not by the Cherubim that to this day guard the pathways to Eden and bar the demons from returning.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 03:05:30 AM by GameDaddy »
Blackmoor grew from a single Castle to include, first, several adjacent Castles (with the forces of Evil lying just off the edge of the world to an entire Northern Province of the Castle and Crusade Society's Great Kingdom.

~ Dave Arneson

Géza Echs

  • Doctor of Weird Fiction
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2011, 09:44:21 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;460381
Wait.. are you blaming the victims of Mary's anti-protestant persecutions on the Reformation?!!

No, the dissolution of the monasteries and the destruction of the ecclesiastical libraries both occurred under Henry as part of the Reformation. John Leland, whom I spoke of, was an agent of Henry's.

Edit: To be fair, responses to the rise of Protestantism in England, including the Counter-Reformation, weren't much better (I'm thinking here of Mary, of course, and the unjust execution of Lady Grey). Still, that doesn't save the Reformation itself from its own crimes.

Quote
Also, it should be noted that England's protestantism was one of the least bloody (certainly in comparison to France or Germany) and quickly developed into policies of tacit toleration.

I can't speak to whether or not is was "one of the least bloody", but it certainly was bloody -- and tragically so. It may have been worse elsewhere, of course, but that doesn't stop it from being bad unto itself. It developed into "policies of tacit toleration" eventually, yes, but that doesn't strike the violence of the dissolution or the initial suppression of Catholicism from the record.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 09:47:15 AM by Géza Echs »