This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: "Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day  (Read 4436 times)

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2011, 02:51:47 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;459826
I think of it similarly to how I think about those who would ban flag-burning in the U.S. - where in 2006 a proposed constitutional amendment that just barely failed to get 2/3's vote in the Senate (66 to 34 in favor of the amendment).  

I completely support free speech and the right to burn a flag - but there's no way that I would organize or support a "flag-burning day" or start a Facebook group for videos of people burning flags.  That just seems stupid, and contrary to the point.


Agreed.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Géza Echs

  • Doctor of Weird Fiction
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2011, 01:05:12 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;459808
Hardly. One of the central points in which catholicism differs from most protestant sects is that Catholics are pretty icon-obsessed.  I was in the Montevideo cathedral today, and its full of incredible statues and a massive crucifix.

Catholics have a crucifix (christ on the cross) while most protestants prefer the (empty) cross.


Well, yes. My point was that the injunctions against worship of graven images still applies to us, and as such we straddle an occasionally uncomfortable line by having such a rich focus on icons but being determined to not worship them directly. In some respects it's similar to our veneration of the saints, or the Virgin Mary, without treating them as gods (a point I often have to make clear to Protestants who've misunderstood things like the veneration of Mary).

Géza Echs

  • Doctor of Weird Fiction
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2011, 01:06:08 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;459826
I think of it similarly to how I think about those who would ban flag-burning in the U.S. - where in 2006 a proposed constitutional amendment that just barely failed to get 2/3's vote in the Senate (66 to 34 in favor of the amendment).  

I completely support free speech and the right to burn a flag - but there's no way that I would organize or support a "flag-burning day" or start a Facebook group for videos of people burning flags.  That just seems stupid, and contrary to the point.


Yeah, I think that's a good way of looking at it.

Bedrockbrendan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12695
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2011, 05:20:52 PM »
Quote from: Géza Echs;459890
In some respects it's similar to our veneration of the saints, or the Virgin Mary, without treating them as gods (a point I often have to make clear to Protestants who've misunderstood things like the veneration of Mary).


A lot of people miss the venerate/worship distinction.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2011, 11:23:24 PM »
Quote from: Géza Echs;459890
Well, yes. My point was that the injunctions against worship of graven images still applies to us, and as such we straddle an occasionally uncomfortable line by having such a rich focus on icons but being determined to not worship them directly. In some respects it's similar to our veneration of the saints, or the Virgin Mary, without treating them as gods (a point I often have to make clear to Protestants who've misunderstood things like the veneration of Mary).


I know that the Catholic dogma is that you are using the statuary/images/relics/etc. only as representations, and not direct objects of worship, but its a pretty ephemeral distinction.  I'm inclined toward the old Reformation argument regarding statuary: "so God made you, and the carpenter made god?"

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2011, 11:24:25 PM »
Draw Muhammad Day II

So I have watched with amusement, disgust, and pity many of the shenanigans that have gone on associated with the Draw the Prophet day event; no place moreso than on RPG.net's Tangency.

Of course, all the Tangency Fashionable Liberals came out, and rather than say anything intelligent or truly insightful about the situation, they just jumped in with faked indignation at the idea that anyone would dare to be so politically incorrect as to draw Mohammad, and how it is certainly all our fault that the poor misunderstood Hezbollah freedom fighters want to brutally murder cartoonists on the street.
Clearly, to this group, the only possible motive for doing this had nothing to do with death threats or dead film-makers and the sense of encroaching enforced censorship, and it was purely just christian fundamentalists hating on brown people. They engaged in the oldest and most usual Tangency nonsense tactic: "If you disagree with me, you MUST be racist". How boring.

On the other hand, you had a group of the Tangency Fashionable Atheists jumping in to say that like any blasphemy, drawing Mohammad was great and that the whole point of the entire event was not about freedom of expression or defending core values of our civilization, but about showing off how edgy they personally were for not believing in God, as if that was still something dangerous or radical or intellectually innovative, as if they were fucking Nietzsche or something, and not just some fucking masturbator who read Dawkin's trite book and has a beef with how daddy made him go to church.

Finally, you had some people there trying to defend the unpopular (on Tangency) position of "belief in free speech", while struggling not to get banned (for believing in free speech).  Unfortunately, the people who still bother to hang around on Tangency and express views contrary to the Fashionable Tangenistas clique have clearly been cowed not only into submissiveness but a total inability to effectively defend a position; they let the asshole PC-police college-liberal fake-hippy-outrage crowd control all of the terms of the debate right from the beginning, and let the Fashionable Atheists co-opt their side of the discussion, until there was practically no point anymore.

What they should have done is re-framed the entire debate by force-feeding the point of "Do YOU think that drawing cartoons of Mohammad should be illegal in the west? YES or NO?".
Because its really that simple. If you think they should be legal, you can talk about how some might be in bad taste or not, and wax on endlessly about the motives of the people doing it, but you cannot fundamentally put yourself in opposition to an event designed to defend one's right to that freedom in our society.
If you think they should be illegal, then you have to account for yourself as to why, and exactly in what way are you actually a believer in freedom of speech, and not letting yourself be manipulated by a group of fanatical extremists that you yourself admit are outliers in the faith of Islam; as well as explaining the fundamental point that Parker & Stone were jokingly trying to put across in their South Park Episode: why it is that we can make a picture of the Buddha snorting coke or Moses as a weird animated video-game icon, or Jesus in a gay threesome, but we can't draw a picture of Mohammad, even just standing there, doing nothing particularly offensive?

So that's the issue: should it be censored: yes or no? That's the only question that's relevant, and what would have shut up all the RPG.net idiots, if only there was a fair playing field to engage in that debate there in the first place.

RPGPundit

(originally posted May 23, 2010)
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9487
  • high-minded hack
    • The Viking Hat GM
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2011, 03:27:13 AM »
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;459899
A lot of people miss the venerate/worship distinction.

Including most of those doing the venerating. Or worshipping.
The Viking Hat GM
Conflict, the adventure game of modern warfare
Wastrel Wednesdays, livestream with Dungeondelver

Ian Warner

  • Craziest mofo in RPGs!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
    • http://shadow-world.blog.co.uk
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2011, 04:17:32 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;459927
If you think they should be illegal, then you have to account for yourself as to why, and exactly in what way are you actually a believer in freedom of speech, and not letting yourself be manipulated by a group of fanatical extremists that you yourself admit are outliers in the faith of Islam; as well as explaining the fundamental point that Parker & Stone were jokingly trying to put across in their South Park Episode: why it is that we can make a picture of the Buddha snorting coke or Moses as a weird animated video-game icon, or Jesus in a gay threesome, but we can't draw a picture of Mohammad, even just standing there, doing nothing particularly offensive?


Exactly! That and the fact South Park actually had an episode back in 1999 where Mohamed appeared uncensored and throwing fireballs around. One of the more tollerable posters on the WW forums Lord Bob actually had it as his avatar for about 2 years and none of the Muslims who frequent that board (13% of respondents to the religion poll) ever complained either to a mod or publically.

As for RPGnet the mind boggles sometimes.
Directing Editor of Kittiwake Classics

Simlasa

  • Lemon Tart
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5832
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2011, 04:24:57 AM »
I've got some friends who participated... mostly from the atheist angle. None of what I saw them draw was particularly mocking or insulting, just pictures of bearded men... there were no donkeys or dogs involved. It felt more like a reply to the implied threat (of death threats from zealots) than anything else... an act of bravado against a lunatic fringe... but not an outright disrespect of all Muslims... despite their atheist outlook.
I've got more upset reserved for the nutjobs who want to burn the Koran.

selfdeleteduser00001

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2011, 05:05:10 AM »
Quote from: Technomancer;459779
Take the recent protests and polls in Pakistan that showed a majority opposed to amending the absurdly strict blasphemy laws with harsh punishments up to and including death.


I'd be careful extrapolating Pakistan to all of Islam.
It's one country with layers of tradition and practice layered over by Wahabi missionaries and a degree of radidicalisation fostered by the security services to foster the endless proxy wars in Afghanistan and Kashmir since the 1970s.

Added to which many southern Pakistanis are classed as Sunni, but are very close to Sufi in practice, with a degree of Hindu-Muslim syncretism. [Saints, dancing, music, marijuana, tolerant, relaxed.]

Most Muslims actually live in Indonesia [largest population circa 12-15%], India (11%) , Pakistan (11%), Bangladesh, Nigeria, Turkey, Egypt.

Most of these people are normal people with a normal religion with a world view that is coloured largely by the same things Western Europeans and North Americans are concerned by.

The influence of the Saudis and their fundamentalist sect is out of all proportion, and, you know what, I know and have met many Muslims from all over the world (certainly all the ones above) and non of them like Saudis at all, in fact their dislike of them is quite intense.

It is also worth noting that the racial/cultural conflict that the Zionists created in Palestine (and the Western Powers have to accept a lot of responsibility for this) and the support of Western Powers for oppressive Arab rulers has radicalised and driven Muslim opinion into a political clash with the USA/Israel/UK power bloc.

[No I am not anti-Semitic, but I am proudly anti-Zionist.]

Tom
:-|

selfdeleteduser00001

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2011, 05:34:50 AM »
Iconoclasm has been a feature of many religions, the deliberate removal or destruction of icons and imagery. Often it is due to political change, the removal of an old regime's iconography, or a deliberate destruction of a an older or competing beliefe system.

In Christianity and Islam anti-idolatory beliefs lie beneath many such iconoclastic movements, the Orthodox Church saw a period of iconoclasm 730-787 which was resolved at the Second Council of Nicaea 787, and many would see Orthodox icons as an examplar of a icon rich religion now.

In general, Muslim societies have avoided the depiction of living beings within such sacred spaces as mosques and madrasahs. This opposition to figural representation is not based on the Qur'an, but rather on various traditions contained within the Hadith. The prohibition of figuration has not always extended to the secular sphere, and a robust tradition of figural representation exists within Muslim art. [Source: Wikipedia]

Indeed other religions were traditionally allows their icons, and much of the classical world's icons and idols were preserved in Islamic countries. Where there was a deal of iconoclasm it tended to be in areas of cultural conflict where Hindu-Muslim-Buddhist aligned power blocs competed.

Protestant iconoclasm in the Reformation was ideologically inspired, albeit with a somewhat mercenary government agenda in England under Henry VIII, but as we can see in modern Protestant churches, the use of icons and imagery returned quickly, although it has less of a role as a point of prayer and focus than Catholicism.

Buddhism also shows the tension within a religion. Buddha was represented in the early days of Buddhism by an empty chair. This was to represent the fact that Buddha had left, that he had achieved Nirvana and was no longer.
But as we know most Buddhist temples now have statues of Buddha and other figures.

It's worth, as a gamer, to explore this a little further, since it's a great source of tension in the real world and would add depth and colour to any rpg, fantasy, modern or SF.

It's worth reading up on for life, since the more that one explores these big cultural issues the more you realise that people are people and we need to be very careful about the extremes that some people try to take us to, one way or the other and that most people want to live happy lives with their families and friends and get along reasonably well with their neighbours.

Tom
:-|

Ian Warner

  • Craziest mofo in RPGs!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
    • http://shadow-world.blog.co.uk
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2011, 05:46:02 AM »
Henry was neither a Catholic nor a Protestant and his daughter Liz followed suit.

A lot of the strife in the CofE today comes from this pair's refusal to follow the complete path of the other.

The CofE is technically Protestant yes but it's more a mishmash than anything else.
Directing Editor of Kittiwake Classics

Géza Echs

  • Doctor of Weird Fiction
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 798
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2011, 11:24:29 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;459925
I know that the Catholic dogma is that you are using the statuary/images/relics/etc. only as representations, and not direct objects of worship, but its a pretty ephemeral distinction.


Be that as it may, but it's not an ephemeral distinction to us. :)

Quote
I'm inclined toward the old Reformation argument regarding statuary: "so God made you, and the carpenter made god?"


Fair enough. I'm a bit gun-shy around arguments that -- however pithy -- lead to the iconoclastic destruction of the monasteries and the incalculable loss of ecclesiastical libraries.

selfdeleteduser00001

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2011, 12:17:44 PM »
Henry was a nationalist and that's quite clear from the English Reformation.
Elizabeth was more of a core Protestant, but again a nationalist first.
The CoE does indeed have a High Church, almost Catholic tradition, and a Low Church, clearly Protestant tradition.
But overall it is a Protestant church, and a nationalist one, which makes the wider Anglican community an interesting aspect.

It is also clear that anti-idolatry, aniconism and iconoclasm have deep belief in their core but have often been used extensively to wage power struggles or simply to acquire wealth.

Talking of acquiring wealth, just why were the Knights Templars suppressed?
Oh that's a different thread.
:-|

Werekoala

  • I\'m Toxic and I know It
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4375
"Draw a Picture of Mohammed" Day
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2011, 12:36:57 PM »
Craziest manifestation of this over-sensitivity to showing Mohammad was a documentary on his life on National Geographic Channel complete with re-enactments and such showing daily life and battles and such...

Where they never showed his face on screen.
Lan Astaslem


"It's rpg.net The population there would call the Second Coming of Jesus Christ a hate crime." - thedungeondelver