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Author Topic: Diversity is not a Virtue: Don't play the SJW game  (Read 39089 times)

jhkim

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Diversity is not a Virtue: Don't play the SJW game
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2020, 04:00:18 PM »
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1126950
If you treated Crichton's Eaters of the Dead as backstory, you COULD have interactions between Northmen and Arabs.

The image of the Northman as an idiot pillager keeps having to get revised as new info turns up.
I'm pretty sure Crichton's book was inspired by the historical account in 922 by Ahmad ibn Fadlan about his travels to the Rus Vikings. So that part was real even if Eaters of the Dead is fiction. Medieval society was not as static or immobile as is often portrayed, and there were some wide-ranging peoples. For example, there was a black Knight of the Round Table (Moriaen).

Still, dark-skinned and/or androgynous vikings strike me as ahistorical. The vikings were not purely mono-ethnic, since they traveled really widely and often mixed people -- taking recruits, wives, and slaves back with them. But I don't know of any proven cases of dark-skinned vikings. I don't have a problem with ahistorical games -- very few games are actually historically accurate, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't fit to claim historical accuracy alongside dark-skinned and/or androgynous vikings.

oggsmash

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« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2020, 06:11:31 PM »
The Varangian guard was all Norsemen wasnt it?

SHARK

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« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2020, 06:25:13 PM »
Quote from: oggsmash;1126986
The Varangian guard was all Norsemen wasnt it?

Greetings!

Yes, Oggsmash, the Varangian Guard were hand-picked elite Norse Viking warriors, appointed as a special bodyguard unit to the Byzantine Emperor. The Norsemen were famous for their unflinching loyalty on their oaths, and also trusted guardians of security--and special assignments by the Emperor and the Imperial Family. The Varangian Guard were provided with the very best armour and weapons available, and the best training anywhere in the Byzantine Empire. In addition, each member of the Varangian Guard were paid handsomely, and were also frequently given outstanding bonuses in gold coins, fine treasures, horses, and women. Their authority was nearly absolute, and their prestige and political prowess was very formidable.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Ghostmaker

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« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2020, 09:19:39 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1126966
I'm pretty sure Crichton's book was inspired by the historical account in 922 by Ahmad ibn Fadlan about his travels to the Rus Vikings. So that part was real even if Eaters of the Dead is fiction. Medieval society was not as static or immobile as is often portrayed, and there were some wide-ranging peoples. For example, there was a black Knight of the Round Table (Moriaen).

Still, dark-skinned and/or androgynous vikings strike me as ahistorical. The vikings were not purely mono-ethnic, since they traveled really widely and often mixed people -- taking recruits, wives, and slaves back with them. But I don't know of any proven cases of dark-skinned vikings. I don't have a problem with ahistorical games -- very few games are actually historically accurate, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't fit to claim historical accuracy alongside dark-skinned and/or androgynous vikings.

Stepping off the beaten path of history here...

Any crossbreed would probably find an easier time of acceptance among the Northmen (though he'd have to prove himself, that's no worse than what anyone else would deal with). I agree androgynous Northmen would be anachronistic as hell -- IIRC there were some VERY clearly defined roles in Northman society and screwing with that might get you yeeted into the sea.

'Tis a silly discussion, to be honest :)

jhkim

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« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2020, 10:37:29 PM »
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1127002
Stepping off the beaten path of history here...

Any crossbreed would probably find an easier time of acceptance among the Northmen (though he'd have to prove himself, that's no worse than what anyone else would deal with). I agree androgynous Northmen would be anachronistic as hell -- IIRC there were some VERY clearly defined roles in Northman society and screwing with that might get you yeeted into the sea.
That stuff about roles sounds overstated to me. In general, Northmen in the viking period were less moralizing than was often the case in the rest of Europe - and had a lot of non-stereotypical behaviors. Personally, I was thinking more that men were rarely clean-shaven, which by itself makes androgyny more difficult. (For example, Njal of Njal's Saga was known as Njal the Beardless, which indicates that it's a rare quality - though in his case he apparently couldn't grow a beard.) Lee Gold, the author of the ICE Vikings sourcebook, wrote some about sexuality topics that she left out of her Japan and Vikings sourcebook many years ago:

https://www.conchord.org/xeno/censorship.html   (the Vikings section is after Japan)

Short form she cites sources that male passive homosexuality (i.e. taking it up the butt) was looked down on -- but not active homosexuality (i.e. putting it in a guy's butt). So they might talk shit the guy taking it up the butt, but not enough to stop fucking him. Also, sorcery was seen as effeminate -- so for example, the malign sorcerer in the Laxdaela Saga was described as effeminate - similar to shapeshifting Loki or even Odin. He was not well respected by his neighbors, but similarly, not enough to drive him out or put a lawsuit against him.

I had a cross-dressing character in my old Vikings & Skraelings campaign. As I mentioned, it was officially not approved of, but it was offset by respect for other qualities.

SHARK

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« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2020, 11:22:43 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1127005
That stuff about roles sounds overstated to me. In general, Northmen in the viking period were less moralizing than was often the case in the rest of Europe - and had a lot of non-stereotypical behaviors. Personally, I was thinking more that men were rarely clean-shaven, which by itself makes androgyny more difficult. (For example, Njal of Njal's Saga was known as Njal the Beardless, which indicates that it's a rare quality - though in his case he apparently couldn't grow a beard.) Lee Gold, the author of the ICE Vikings sourcebook, wrote some about sexuality topics that she left out of her Japan and Vikings sourcebook many years ago:

https://www.conchord.org/xeno/censorship.html   (the Vikings section is after Japan)

Short form she cites sources that male passive homosexuality (i.e. taking it up the butt) was looked down on -- but not active homosexuality (i.e. putting it in a guy's butt). So they might talk shit the guy taking it up the butt, but not enough to stop fucking him. Also, sorcery was seen as effeminate -- so for example, the malign sorcerer in the Laxdaela Saga was described as effeminate - similar to shapeshifting Loki or even Odin. He was not well respected by his neighbors, but similarly, not enough to drive him out or put a lawsuit against him.

I had a cross-dressing character in my old Vikings & Skraelings campaign. As I mentioned, it was officially not approved of, but it was offset by respect for other qualities.

Greetings!

Interesting article, Jhkim. I don't understand why some people do not get it--lots of people do not want to be around homosexuals; they don't want to talk about homosexual love; they don't want to discuss or explore homosexual sex in their roleplaying games. This has been a consistent reality for many, many years. Publishers don't want to publish and advertise homosexual characters, homosexual sex, and homosexual themes in the game books and modules. Doing so risks a huge drop in profit, and being trashed and ridiculed by a majority of the gaming market.

While today's SJW segment is more vocal in their love of everything homosexual--the majority of the gaming market remains dismissive, and uninterested--if not always vigorously hostile. So, even today despite somewhat more of a vocal SJW audience, the expectations and desires of the majority of the gaming market prevails--blast the homosexual theme, and risk going broke and swept into the shitter to be forgotten. That seems to be the way it is.

Furthermore, though, despite the fact that most gamers are heterosexual--there also seems to be a rather large contingent of gamers that are strictly religious, strictly focused or prefer rated G games, and or otherwise have zero desire to have any kind of sexual theme, characters, or sexual activity and so on in their games and game books, as well.

*Shrugs* Thus, the author lamenting until our "culture changes"--I wouldn't hold my breath. Our country and culture has deep, deep Puritanical roots, and as a culture, we are hopelessly and bogglingly contradictory; despite the fact that our culture is sex drenched in so many ways, from music, media, clothing, television shows with frequent sex, and on and on--as many parents lament constantly--there are other areas where our culture has fits about any mention or inclusion of sex, or sensuality. No nude beaches, no nude men; no naked men in film; sex depicted a certain way in romance books; no sex in role playing games; Shakira and Jlo cannot dance sexy at the Superbowl; and so on.

I don't expect our culture to change. We are full of contradictions and mixed passions about sex, sexuality, sensuality, naked women and naked men.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

jhkim

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« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2020, 01:19:16 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1127005
Personally, I was thinking more that men were rarely clean-shaven, which by itself makes androgyny more difficult. (For example, Njal of Njal's Saga was known as Njal the Beardless, which indicates that it's a rare quality - though in his case he apparently couldn't grow a beard.) Lee Gold, the author of the ICE Vikings sourcebook, wrote some about sexuality topics that she left out of her Japan and Vikings sourcebook many years ago:

https://www.conchord.org/xeno/censorship.html   (the Vikings section is after Japan)

Quote from: SHARK;1127008
Interesting article, Jhkim. I don't understand why some people do not get it--lots of people do not want to be around homosexuals; they don't want to talk about homosexual love; they don't want to discuss or explore homosexual sex in their roleplaying games. This has been a consistent reality for many, many years. Publishers don't want to publish and advertise homosexual characters, homosexual sex, and homosexual themes in the game books and modules. Doing so risks a huge drop in profit, and being trashed and ridiculed by a majority of the gaming market.

Actually, I think a lot has changed since she wrote that article back in 1995. Gay marriage is now legal in the U.S., and there have been a significant number of gay characters in mainstream television and movies, from The Walking Dead to Torchwood. They appear regularly now in children's television, though not in mainstream children's movies. Gay people and characters still haven't been totally accepted, but I think they're much more accepted in 2020 than in 1995.

Ghostmaker

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« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2020, 08:42:58 AM »
At the risk of wandering too off topic: one of the problems homosexuals have had in the U.S. has been stupidity on a par with drug addiction.

Specifically, repeatedly pushing for policy and decisions that would prevent gays from being 'stigmatized' in the face of the AIDS disease (this was back in the early 80's). Gays were advised to throttle back their freewheeling promiscuity, and it was treated as an attack. An attempt was made by the CDC to limit blood donations by homosexuals to prevent contamination of blood supplies with HIV+ materials; that was violently rejected.

The former is why the book and film are called And The Band Played On, and the latter is recounted here: https://www.takimag.com/article/theyll-snuff-your-life-to-end-their-stigma/

Gagarth

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« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2020, 09:05:58 AM »
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1126950
If you treated Crichton's Eaters of the Dead as backstory, you COULD have interactions between Northmen and Arabs.

The image of the Northman as an idiot pillager keeps having to get revised as new info turns up.


This is the rhetoric these fucks use to justify this, because you know they had boats and shit.  But what they really mean is not that an odd individual turning up and the number increasing the closer  you come to interface areas like the Mediterranean.  No they wan't every inch of an historical Europe depiction to be as fully diverse in the past as they want it now.  Of course Africa is a safe space.
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Gagarth

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« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2020, 09:11:47 AM »
Quote from: oggsmash;1126986
The Varangian guard was all Norsemen wasnt it?
Yeah but they didn't make up 50%+ of the population. Of course for the Varangian guard in a setting to truly pass muster with the SJW fascists they also have to be  over 50% PoC.
'Don't join us. Work hard, get good degrees, join the Establishment and serve our cause from within.' Harry Pollitt - Communist Party GB

 “Don’t worry about the election, Trump’s not gonna win. I made f*cking sure of that!” Eric Coomer -  Dominion Voting Systems Officer of Strategy and Security

Ghostmaker

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« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2020, 11:21:57 AM »
Quote from: Gagarth;1127033
This is the rhetoric these fucks use to justify this, because you know they had boats and shit.  But what they really mean is not that an odd individual turning up and the number increasing the closer  you come to interface areas like the Mediterranean.  No they wan't every inch of an historical Europe depiction to be as fully diverse in the past as they want it now.  Of course Africa is a safe space.

Precisely.

An outlier, fish-out-of-water character can be fun and entertaining (and often serve as an audience surrogate). The problem is that some of these idiots think every place should look like NYC when they -don't-. It's the same problem they have analyzing other cultural behavior (for good or ill); they can't grok that some people do not think like they do.

blackstone

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« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2020, 11:26:08 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1127019
Actually, I think a lot has changed since she wrote that article back in 1995. Gay marriage is now legal in the U.S., and there have been a significant number of gay characters in mainstream television and movies, from The Walking Dead to Torchwood. They appear regularly now in children's television, though not in mainstream children's movies. Gay people and characters still haven't been totally accepted, but I think they're much more accepted in 2020 than in 1995.

No, I don't think that homosexuality has been accepted.

Tolerated, yes. But not accepted.

It's tolerated because you can't change how a person thinks.

I can personally accept my youngest daughter as being gay (and she is).

It's up to the individual to accept it or not, or just tolerate it.

You can't force people to think one way, and that's what drives the progressives stark raving mad.

Shrieking Banshee

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« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2020, 11:51:51 AM »
Quote from: blackstone;1127051
No, I don't think that homosexuality has been accepted.

Acceptance is overrated. You can't accept everything. Tolerance is a much better solution.

jhkim

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« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2020, 12:17:24 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
Actually, I think a lot has changed since she wrote that article back in 1995. Gay marriage is now legal in the U.S., and there have been a significant number of gay characters in mainstream television and movies, from The Walking Dead to Torchwood. They appear regularly now in children's television, though not in mainstream children's movies. Gay people and characters still haven't been totally accepted, but I think they're much more accepted in 2020 than in 1995.
Quote from: blackstone;1127051
No, I don't think that homosexuality has been accepted.

Tolerated, yes. But not accepted.

It's tolerated because you can't change how a person thinks.

I can personally accept my youngest daughter as being gay (and she is).

It's up to the individual to accept it or not, or just tolerate it.

You can't force people to think one way, and that's what drives the progressives stark raving mad.
There has always been a range of views on homosexuality. Some people celebrate it, some people accept it, some people tolerate it, some people disapprove of it, some people hate it. I think there are both more people who accept it, and more people who tolerate it in 2020 compared to 1995.

As I said, that doesn't mean that everybody accepts it, but acceptance is much more common. I agree that thinking cannot be forced, but thinking can change -- and in this case, it has. I can see that in various polls and politics, as well as general discussion.

Someone might consider that a bad thing, but it has happened nonetheless.

RandyB

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« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2020, 12:32:49 PM »
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1127057
Acceptance is overrated. You can't accept everything. Tolerance is a much better solution.

And some things are intolerable.