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Author Topic: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian  (Read 11795 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2021, 04:21:25 PM »
Lucas chose Kennedy before he sold to Disney.

Lucas. Chose. Kennedy.

Never forget.

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jhkim

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2021, 06:54:33 PM »
Lucas and Filoni worked hand-in-hand in the passion project called The Clone Wars.  That series (despite some clunker storylines from time to time) is the pinnacle of Star Wars.  Filoni carried that through to Star Wars Rebels and was able to make the leap to live action in The Mandalorian.  He has zero experience actually running a production and Favreau was not on Star Wars at the time of the sale.  If Kennedy had been content to know her role and stay behind the curtains everything was fine.

If you thought Clone Wars was the pinnacle of Star Wars, then our tastes differ significantly. Personally, I thought the pinnacle was the original trilogy - with the best after that being Rogue One and The Mandalorian. Then there's a long gap before the rest.


The Jedi are first of all stupid for blindly accepting and trusting the slave army. (They could have used them without trusting them, note.) And further, they are morally bankrupt for using a slave army, without giving them their freedom and insisting that slavery is wrong. The Republic could have stepped up drafting and training a regular military, which would have taken over before the end of the wars.

Hindsight is 20/20. As the audience, we knew the Jedi were in for a sudden yet inevitable betrayal. They had no idea the Sith lord was the Chancellor of the Republic, with the power to flip a proverbial switch to turn on his Galactic Empire. None of your suggestions would have changed things. The Republic needed an instant army that could match the sheer numbers of the Seperatist droid production capacity. The clones would always outnumber any conventional armies. (Barring a sucessful strike on the cloning facilities, which would be a victory stroke for the Seperatists.)

Why would the clones always outnumber conventional armies? It's the partial output of just one planet - and there are thousands of planets in the Republic. Plus, even if they were more numerous, that's no reason to have absolutely no non-slave military. The Republic obviously had military capacity since there was a huge number of warships, fighters, and weapons that got created for the slave army.

This has nothing to do with hindsight. Regardless of whether I was watching this with no foreknowledge, I'd think it was dumb. As far as I can tell, it was *supposed* to look dumb - that's why Lucas had Senator Jar Jar extolling it.

Having a slave army in the first place is morally bankrupt. Turning over all your warships and weaponry to be run by a slave army is stupid.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2021, 08:06:23 PM »
Lucas and Filoni worked hand-in-hand in the passion project called The Clone Wars.  That series (despite some clunker storylines from time to time) is the pinnacle of Star Wars.  Filoni carried that through to Star Wars Rebels and was able to make the leap to live action in The Mandalorian.  He has zero experience actually running a production and Favreau was not on Star Wars at the time of the sale.  If Kennedy had been content to know her role and stay behind the curtains everything was fine.

If you thought Clone Wars was the pinnacle of Star Wars, then our tastes differ significantly. Personally, I thought the pinnacle was the original trilogy - with the best after that being Rogue One and The Mandalorian. Then there's a long gap before the rest.


The Jedi are first of all stupid for blindly accepting and trusting the slave army. (They could have used them without trusting them, note.) And further, they are morally bankrupt for using a slave army, without giving them their freedom and insisting that slavery is wrong. The Republic could have stepped up drafting and training a regular military, which would have taken over before the end of the wars.

Hindsight is 20/20. As the audience, we knew the Jedi were in for a sudden yet inevitable betrayal. They had no idea the Sith lord was the Chancellor of the Republic, with the power to flip a proverbial switch to turn on his Galactic Empire. None of your suggestions would have changed things. The Republic needed an instant army that could match the sheer numbers of the Seperatist droid production capacity. The clones would always outnumber any conventional armies. (Barring a sucessful strike on the cloning facilities, which would be a victory stroke for the Seperatists.)

Why would the clones always outnumber conventional armies? It's the partial output of just one planet - and there are thousands of planets in the Republic.

One planet with a dedicated clone production facility, and Clones mature at twice the rate of the non-Clone humans. Once the clone production was put on a war footing, I'm sure Kamino could increase their production significantly. Not to mention it would have been wise to have Kamino create additional production facilities on other planets, so as to spread it out and make it less likely to end clone production by taking one planet.

Quote
Plus, even if they were more numerous, that's no reason to have absolutely no non-slave military. The Republic obviously had military capacity since there was a huge number of warships, fighters, and weapons that got created for the slave army.

And we're never told by who or how. Was it just Kamino? They don't seem to have the infrastructure for making military hardware. Perhaps a standard contract that would have gone under the Republic's radar, and then when the clone army was approved by the Senate, they could expand. The clone army in AOTC may have just been a sample product. Albeit a big one.

Quote
This has nothing to do with hindsight. Regardless of whether I was watching this with no foreknowledge, I'd think it was dumb. As far as I can tell, it was *supposed* to look dumb - that's why Lucas had Senator Jar Jar extolling it.

It's like a serious political story told in the mileu of Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon.

Quote
Having a slave army in the first place is morally bankrupt.

Never argued otherwise. I'm sure Lucas would agree that that was the point. The Republic had anti-slavery laws, as pointed out in Phantom Menace. That they were willing to overlook their principles in the face of a disaster is all too human and understandable.

Quote
Turning over all your warships and weaponry to be run by a slave army is stupid.

That's why they were genetically altered and trained to be loyal to the Republic. And they did their duty. It's not their fault the boss turned out to be an Evil Space Wizard.

And never forget, the Senate cheered Palpatine's Empire.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 08:14:13 PM by Ratman_tf »
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Jame Rowe

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2021, 11:54:49 PM »
Lucas chose Kennedy before he sold to Disney.

Lucas. Chose. Kennedy.

Never forget.

Yes he'd been working with her since the 70's.  She's on all the major movies (always fun to see Michael Moore as second unit director on the Indy films).  She's really good at doing the nuts and bolts of Hollywood.  She's a great producer.  She's fucking lousy as a creator.  I had never once heard of her being involved in the creative side until the sequel trilogy.  She was there to handle the money and booking everything.

Lucas and Filoni worked hand-in-hand in the passion project called The Clone Wars.  That series (despite some clunker storylines from time to time) is the pinnacle of Star Wars.  Filoni carried that through to Star Wars Rebels and was able to make the leap to live action in The Mandalorian.  He has zero experience actually running a production and Favreau was not on Star Wars at the time of the sale.  If Kennedy had been content to know her role and stay behind the curtains everything was fine.  But she decided the "Force is Female" and that she knew best for how to handle the franchise.  She thought she was the next Kevin Feige.  She's not.

I have no problem with strong female characters, Force-wielding or not. E.G., Sabine Wren, Ahsoka or Leia.

But in a proper story, you have both strong female and strong male characters.  Step away from that and, well...
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2021, 12:12:44 AM »
Lucas chose Kennedy before he sold to Disney.

Lucas. Chose. Kennedy.

Never forget.

Yes he'd been working with her since the 70's.  She's on all the major movies (always fun to see Michael Moore as second unit director on the Indy films).  She's really good at doing the nuts and bolts of Hollywood.  She's a great producer.  She's fucking lousy as a creator.  I had never once heard of her being involved in the creative side until the sequel trilogy.  She was there to handle the money and booking everything.

Lucas and Filoni worked hand-in-hand in the passion project called The Clone Wars.  That series (despite some clunker storylines from time to time) is the pinnacle of Star Wars.  Filoni carried that through to Star Wars Rebels and was able to make the leap to live action in The Mandalorian.  He has zero experience actually running a production and Favreau was not on Star Wars at the time of the sale.  If Kennedy had been content to know her role and stay behind the curtains everything was fine.  But she decided the "Force is Female" and that she knew best for how to handle the franchise.  She thought she was the next Kevin Feige.  She's not.

I have no problem with strong female characters, Force-wielding or not. E.G., Sabine Wren, Ahsoka or Leia.

But in a proper story, you have both strong female and strong male characters.  Step away from that and, well...

Hopefully at this point everyone understands that the identity politics isn't about telling good stories, or "empowering women", it's about control.
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KingCheops

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2021, 09:59:18 AM »
Lucas chose Kennedy before he sold to Disney.

Lucas. Chose. Kennedy.

Never forget.

Yes he'd been working with her since the 70's.  She's on all the major movies (always fun to see Michael Moore as second unit director on the Indy films).  She's really good at doing the nuts and bolts of Hollywood.  She's a great producer.  She's fucking lousy as a creator.  I had never once heard of her being involved in the creative side until the sequel trilogy.  She was there to handle the money and booking everything.

Lucas and Filoni worked hand-in-hand in the passion project called The Clone Wars.  That series (despite some clunker storylines from time to time) is the pinnacle of Star Wars.  Filoni carried that through to Star Wars Rebels and was able to make the leap to live action in The Mandalorian.  He has zero experience actually running a production and Favreau was not on Star Wars at the time of the sale.  If Kennedy had been content to know her role and stay behind the curtains everything was fine.  But she decided the "Force is Female" and that she knew best for how to handle the franchise.  She thought she was the next Kevin Feige.  She's not.

I have no problem with strong female characters, Force-wielding or not. E.G., Sabine Wren, Ahsoka or Leia.

But in a proper story, you have both strong female and strong male characters.  Step away from that and, well...

Lol I was sad when Sasha Banks wasn't Sabine Wren.  Still a badass character but a fan boy can hope.  Ahsoka is the main reason why Clone Wars is so good.

It's almost like there needs to be balance in the Force....

Jame Rowe

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2021, 03:12:20 PM »
Hopefully at this point everyone understands that the identity politics isn't about telling good stories, or "empowering women", it's about control.

That it is, on many sides.

Lol I was sad when Sasha Banks wasn't Sabine Wren.  Still a badass character but a fan boy can hope.  Ahsoka is the main reason why Clone Wars is so good.

It's almost like there needs to be balance in the Force....

I'm satisfied with Tiya Sircar. (If she has politics, I don't know about it.)
I know nothing about Sasha Banks other than what I looked up just now. She could have been a good addition.
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KingCheops

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2021, 06:41:21 PM »
Lol I was sad when Sasha Banks wasn't Sabine Wren.  Still a badass character but a fan boy can hope.  Ahsoka is the main reason why Clone Wars is so good.

It's almost like there needs to be balance in the Force....

I'm satisfied with Tiya Sircar. (If she has politics, I don't know about it.)
I know nothing about Sasha Banks other than what I looked up just now. She could have been a good addition.

Well yeah I mean Tiya Sircar did good voice work on the cartoon.  Is she rumored to be playing her in a possible live action?  Rumors I'm hearing are that all the Disney+ serials will build up to the return of Thrawn (and presumably Sabine and Ezra) and then a modified Heir to the Empire adaptation.  I'd be fine with her as Sabine.

Sasha Banks portrayed brand new Mandalorian Koska Reeves.  Just kind of let her rip in the action scenes like they did with Gina.

David Johansen

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2021, 05:34:37 AM »
My take on the clone wars is that the actual mobilization was very low.  The Separatists were mainly using droids and the Republic were mainly using clones, the common people watched with interest but really had no skin in the game.  Oh, their taxes went up but taxes were always going up, that's why there's such a strong black market/smuggling economy.  It costs three hundred credits to make a speeder and costs thirty thousand to buy one and most of that is tax and licensing and duty.  Most manufacturing is automated and most jobs are in the service sector because people don't like dealing with droids and droids are made clunky and inhuman because the laws require it to preserve jobs.  But the reality is that, outside of re-enactors and droid battle spectaculars, nobody has actually fought a war in a thousand years and nobody really knows how to fight one.  The Gungans haven't had a war since Naboo was colonized and they adapted technology to the way they fought wars as a result of tradition and internal policing.
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jhkim

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2021, 01:10:58 PM »
This has nothing to do with hindsight. Regardless of whether I was watching this with no foreknowledge, I'd think it was dumb. As far as I can tell, it was *supposed* to look dumb - that's why Lucas had Senator Jar Jar extolling it.

It's like a serious political story told in the mileu of Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon.

Having a slave army in the first place is morally bankrupt.

Never argued otherwise. I'm sure Lucas would agree that that was the point. The Republic had anti-slavery laws, as pointed out in Phantom Menace. That they were willing to overlook their principles in the face of a disaster is all too human and understandable.

I don't want to get too caught up in minutia here, but I think what you say about Buck Rogers is on point. I can enjoy a pulp story greatly. I was just watching the 1970s Wonder Woman series last week with my son on college break. We laughed and enjoyed the cheesiness, in part because it was very sincere. If this were a Buck Rogers episode, the first thing he would do is declare slavery immoral, free them, and then win their trust and lead them to victory. (Roughly - it's been a while since I've read or watched Buck Rogers specifically.)

But the prequels have all the senseless plot devices of pulp without that - and so to me, the political points fall completely flat. There's no depth of character, no substance to the philosophy or ethics, and no realism to the politics. Maybe Lucas would privately agree that slavery is wrong - but *no one* actually stands up for that point in the prequels. It would be nice if at least someone on the Jedi Council were to refuse to support slavery and resign. Maybe that happens at some point in the Clone Wars - I've only seen a dozen or two episodes - but even if it eventually does, that's too little too late for me.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2021, 04:52:54 PM »
This has nothing to do with hindsight. Regardless of whether I was watching this with no foreknowledge, I'd think it was dumb. As far as I can tell, it was *supposed* to look dumb - that's why Lucas had Senator Jar Jar extolling it.

It's like a serious political story told in the mileu of Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon.

Having a slave army in the first place is morally bankrupt.

Never argued otherwise. I'm sure Lucas would agree that that was the point. The Republic had anti-slavery laws, as pointed out in Phantom Menace. That they were willing to overlook their principles in the face of a disaster is all too human and understandable.

I don't want to get too caught up in minutia here, but I think what you say about Buck Rogers is on point. I can enjoy a pulp story greatly. I was just watching the 1970s Wonder Woman series last week with my son on college break. We laughed and enjoyed the cheesiness, in part because it was very sincere. If this were a Buck Rogers episode, the first thing he would do is declare slavery immoral, free them, and then win their trust and lead them to victory. (Roughly - it's been a while since I've read or watched Buck Rogers specifically.)

But the prequels have all the senseless plot devices of pulp without that - and so to me, the political points fall completely flat. There's no depth of character, no substance to the philosophy or ethics, and no realism to the politics. Maybe Lucas would privately agree that slavery is wrong - but *no one* actually stands up for that point in the prequels. It would be nice if at least someone on the Jedi Council were to refuse to support slavery and resign. Maybe that happens at some point in the Clone Wars - I've only seen a dozen or two episodes - but even if it eventually does, that's too little too late for me.

I think we're reaching the agreement zone. If this were an episode of Buck Rogers, it would be 40 minutes, (80 for a two parter) versus the 6+ hours of the prequels. They'd tell a very streamlined story, and only pick out one or two of the major plot threads, and pick a single theme. The fall of the Republic was a backdrop for the tale of Anakin's fall, and so it suffered from not being explored in the story as much. I could pick up his slack and imagine the logical consequences of the Republic's decisions, but that is me doing Lucas's storytelling work, and I'll say that the films dropped the ball on that count. Some things can be left to interpretation, but major themes and ideas should not.  I think that's why Clone Wars was so popular. They had roughly 40 hours to relax and explore all the possible fallout of the prequel story lines. But then, they put in that stupid idea about the brain chips. I really preferred the idea that the clones were indoctrinated, not turned into biological zombies.

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Kyle Aaron

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2021, 03:16:43 AM »
It would be nice if at least someone on the Jedi Council were to refuse to support slavery and resign.
It's an aristocratic society. Someone will be at the bottom, and they will have extremely limited rights, whether they're called slaves, serfs - or clones. And those at the top will congratulate themselves on their magnanimity even as they take a drink from the tray of a passing slave. "We rule for their good, really. It's the natural order of things."
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Daztur

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2021, 08:53:56 PM »
If there's anything that Star Wars proves it's the importance of an Appendix N. The OT's Appendix N included Kurosawa, Buck Rogers, Westerns, WW II movies, stories about tramp steamers, etc. etc. It all fits together well because each part feels familiar but the way it's combined makes it feel fresh (or at least it felt fresh in the 70's). The problem with a lot of later Star Wars is that instead of being influenced by a whole range of things it was mostly just influenced by Star Wars which lead to the same kind of horrible human centipede of hackery that you get from any other media that is only influenced by one thing from Tolkien knock-offs to shitty fanfic.

What made Rogue One (for all of its problems with character and plot) and The Mandalorian (despite how simple its stories are at time) work and be enjoyable is that they went back to Star War's Appendix N (mostly WW II movies for Rogue One and Westerns and samurai stories for The Mandalorian) which helped them break out of the horrible incestuous loop that too much Star Wars media had gotten stuck in.

That said, I still prefer the Sequel Trilogy to the Prequel Trilogy, the ST was frequently stupid and the different movies clashed horribly but at least it wasn't as boring as the PT often was. For the ST the first movie had a dumb plot but at least the characters were fun, the second one felt like a half-baked rough draft of a good movie in that I could see the good ideas poking through the shit even though it ended up not really working and the third movie had a kind of enthusiastic Axe Cop idiocy to it that I couldn't help but find a bit endearing. But then the PT is such shit that that's really damning with faint praise.

Can't speak on Clone Wars, didn't see it. Saw a bit of Rebels with my son and thought it was decent but not great so I can't speak to much to them.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2021, 09:25:48 PM »
If there's anything that Star Wars proves it's the importance of an Appendix N. The OT's Appendix N included Kurosawa, Buck Rogers, Westerns, WW II movies, stories about tramp steamers, etc. etc. It all fits together well because each part feels familiar but the way it's combined makes it feel fresh (or at least it felt fresh in the 70's). The problem with a lot of later Star Wars is that instead of being influenced by a whole range of things it was mostly just influenced by Star Wars which lead to the same kind of horrible human centipede of hackery that you get from any other media that is only influenced by one thing from Tolkien knock-offs to shitty fanfic.

What made Rogue One (for all of its problems with character and plot) and The Mandalorian (despite how simple its stories are at time) work and be enjoyable is that they went back to Star War's Appendix N (mostly WW II movies for Rogue One and Westerns and samurai stories for The Mandalorian) which helped them break out of the horrible incestuous loop that too much Star Wars media had gotten stuck in.

Agree. Even Lucas seemed to fall into that trap, though I think he was running on the fumes of his original 1970's script work.

Quote
That said, I still prefer the Sequel Trilogy to the Prequel Trilogy, the ST was frequently stupid and the different movies clashed horribly but at least it wasn't as boring as the PT often was. For the ST the first movie had a dumb plot but at least the characters were fun, the second one felt like a half-baked rough draft of a good movie in that I could see the good ideas poking through the shit even though it ended up not really working and the third movie had a kind of enthusiastic Axe Cop idiocy to it that I couldn't help but find a bit endearing. But then the PT is such shit that that's really damning with faint praise.


I liked about one or two things each from FA (Rey on Jaku before the plot found her) and LJ, (The idea of the Force Diad) but the rest was so bad I didn't care and mentally tuned out.
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Daztur

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Re: Disney goes full sjw and fires Gina Carano from the Mandalorian
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2021, 09:52:02 PM »
Agree. Even Lucas seemed to fall into that trap, though I think he was running on the fumes of his original 1970's script work.

Exactly, felt like he'd lost touch with the old inspirations for the OT. One of the main problems with it is how quickly he went from a rough draft of the script to shooting. The early drafts of the OT would've made for shit movies as well, they just were revised into something much better before shooting started and then edited well afterwards.

A lot of the Mandalorian is pretty simplistic rehashes of old Western plots in space but it works because it does that well enough (and my kids sure as hell don't know what's an old hat Western plot and what's new so they love it) and it isn't just a constant rehash of specific Star Wars things unlike stuff like us getting told how C3P0 got made or why Han is called "Solo" and how he got his jacket etc. etc.

Quote
I liked about one or two things each from FA (Rey on Jaku before the plot found her) and LJ, (The idea of the Force Diad) but the rest was so bad I didn't care and mentally tuned out.

For me Rey on Jaku was fun enough to keep things fun until the bar scene after that the stupid plot ate everything but it had built up enough momentum at that point to at least be OK.

For the second one the Force Diad was obviously the best part of the movie and while most of the rest of the movie was bad the force diad bits played enough of a role in the story to make it more enjoyable than the PT for me. But then I've never felt any desire to watch it again.

For the third one it felt EXACTLY like something I would've written when I was 7. So incredibly stupid but little seven year old Daztur was running around inside my head cheering the whole movie.