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Author Topic: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?  (Read 13580 times)

SHARK

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2022, 04:51:18 PM »
Greetings!

Creating alien, non-human races and cultures can, at first, seem daunting to create. As for knowing or not knowing human attributes, certainly, there are numerous tendencies that are universal, very wide-spread, as well as historical. Dig into studying History. History is the study largely of human nature, and human nature doesn't change. Technology changes, outer trappings change, but the essential human nature remains.

In concerning alien and non-human races, I usually detail the various appropriate non-human natures of different kinds of animals and creatures--reptiles, dogs, insects, birds, fish, whatever. There are plenty of non-human traits and attributes. Some are humorous, some are horrifying, while many are simply different, being tailored appropriately to the creature's form, environment, and mode of living.

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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2022, 06:54:41 PM »
So your argument is breasts are a social construct? That's a patently absurd argument.
That's not my argument. I'm saying that Western psychologists are confusing nature with nurture and coming to conclusions about human nature where they suppose their specific socialized cultural conditioning are universal aspects (or "tendencies") of human nature when that isn't true.

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2022, 07:37:34 PM »
Most of the attempts to be inhuman come across as confusing nature with nurture and applying specific cultural traits across an entire species. For that matter, non-humans are generally assumed to have a single species-wide culture.

That's partly because of sheer practical space limits on any product somebody's actually going to read for entertainment purposes. The more subcultures you create within any given fictional race/species template, the sketchier the description of each subculture is going to be, of necessity, and the more it will be limited to the most important and game-relevant points of difference.

Real human cultures have the advantage of copious available external sources for anyone who wants or needs them, which is why GURPS Swashbucklers can get away with a few paragraphs per country per period when describing its French vs. German PCs.
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Pat
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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2022, 08:16:55 PM »
So your argument is breasts are a social construct? That's a patently absurd argument.
That's not my argument. I'm saying that Western psychologists are confusing nature with nurture and coming to conclusions about human nature where they suppose their specific socialized cultural conditioning are universal aspects (or "tendencies") of human nature when that isn't true.
Except that's one of the clearest examples of biological sexual signaling. Just compare human breasts to the breasts of a female chimp. They're radically different. The fatty deposits serve a clear evolutionary purpose, and it's not lactation. There are human and racial universals. Yes, they tend to be expressed as tendencies rather than absolutes, but some  are really, really strong.

But while your specific example wasn't good, you are correct in a broader way: Most of us are from WEIRD cultures, or Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic. And much of the social sciences is based on WEIRD cultures, because most of the foundational studies used students from the colleges doing the studies, and those students tended to be extreme outliers even within those cultures (very low proportion of conservative Christians or people from poor rural areas, for example). And WEIRD cultures are, based on historical and even current global societies, extreme outliers. A lot of so-called universals aren't.

That's why I try to use historical sources, and read fiction from authors who understand very different cultures (Poul Anderson is a fairly decent example, with his stories based on medieval Christianity), when I want to create cultures that feel different but grounded. And those cultures are the source of most of the fantasy races, like the fey or dwarves.

It's still a lot harder with players, because the default tendency is to impose our own WEIRD culture on everything. In extreme examples, we end up with parties and worlds that feel like they're composed of 2020s humans in cosplay.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 08:33:13 PM by Pat »

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2022, 10:19:30 PM »
So your argument is breasts are a social construct? That's a patently absurd argument.
That's not my argument. I'm saying that Western psychologists are confusing nature with nurture and coming to conclusions about human nature where they suppose their specific socialized cultural conditioning are universal aspects (or "tendencies") of human nature when that isn't true.
Except that's one of the clearest examples of biological sexual signaling. Just compare human breasts to the breasts of a female chimp. They're radically different. The fatty deposits serve a clear evolutionary purpose, and it's not lactation. There are human and racial universals. Yes, they tend to be expressed as tendencies rather than absolutes, but some  are really, really strong.

But while your specific example wasn't good
I don't think this is a bad example. You can read the following links if you want insight into my views:
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/scientists-still-stumped-by-the-evolution-of-human-breasts
https://www.bellybelly.com.au/breastfeeding/the-sexualisation-of-breasts/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcrV5hc5k3U

I'm not interested in arguing further. Sorry for the tangent.

Pat
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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2022, 11:18:21 PM »
I don't think this is a bad example. You can read the following links if you want insight into my views:
Only one of your links has anything to do with biology, and it doesn't even support your position. But since you're not interested in discussing your example further, I'll drop it as well.

I'm still going to argue against the idea that everything is culturally determined. It's not. If elves were a real race, they'd be wired differently than humans. But how do we represent that in a game? Unfortunately, there I don't think we can take what we know of genetics and neuroscience and extract much gameable material. We're a complex web of innate tendencies and learned elements, and we've only started to untangle the two, and what we do know usually translates into hormone X activates receptor Y and that has a 1.2% association with behavior or trait Z, and it also does 300 other things we don't understand that well. To make it even more complex, the expression is often influenced by environmental factors, which means learned and innate are even harder to separate. Translating that into human behavior or traits is like trying to explain a sonnet using quantum theory.

But I think we can distill two lessons: 1) biology matters, and 2) biology isn't destiny. Think of biology as a set of predispositions or tendencies, and culture as an overlay that can creatively reinterpret or even suppress those tendencies, but can't erase them.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2022, 11:58:12 AM »
I don't think everything is culturally determined either, but it's difficult to determine what is and isn't based on our available (and extremely biased) data. This leads to culture-specific social conditioning original from specific points in space and time (what you called "WEIRD") being mistaken as an innate genetic tendency found universally in humans. This leads to false conclusions being drawn about what humans were, are, will be, and can be, which in turn reinforces close-minded attitudes about human nature and our ability to change and adapt. These attitudes can potentially be detrimental, but that's a whole other discussion.

Which doesn't give a very good foundation for imaging how genuine non-human intelligences might operate. In a lot of speculative fiction, non-humans are basically assigned monolithic cultures that are conflated with their biology and little to no attempt to made to explore cultural differences within the species that defy supposed biological truths. I get that it's really easy to default to these stereotypes and that explains their continued prevalence, alongside LotR just being hugely popular and influential and basically reducing most following fantasy fiction to Tolkien-clones. It still frustrates me.

GeekyBugle

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2022, 12:06:19 PM »
I don't think this is a bad example. You can read the following links if you want insight into my views:
Only one of your links has anything to do with biology, and it doesn't even support your position. But since you're not interested in discussing your example further, I'll drop it as well.

I'm still going to argue against the idea that everything is culturally determined. It's not. If elves were a real race, they'd be wired differently than humans. But how do we represent that in a game? Unfortunately, there I don't think we can take what we know of genetics and neuroscience and extract much gameable material. We're a complex web of innate tendencies and learned elements, and we've only started to untangle the two, and what we do know usually translates into hormone X activates receptor Y and that has a 1.2% association with behavior or trait Z, and it also does 300 other things we don't understand that well. To make it even more complex, the expression is often influenced by environmental factors, which means learned and innate are even harder to separate. Translating that into human behavior or traits is like trying to explain a sonnet using quantum theory.

But I think we can distill two lessons: 1) biology matters, and 2) biology isn't destiny. Think of biology as a set of predispositions or tendencies, and culture as an overlay that can creatively reinterpret or even suppress those tendencies, but can't erase them.

The experiment has been done, Sweden IIRC produces far less women engineers than India, the proportion of women choosing traditional female careers is greater than in other western countries and much larger than in the developing world or third world as long as women are allowed to study (islamic countries don't apply), and it's considered the more egualitarian country.

Human evolution doesn't stop at the neck.

It's why the woke hate Evolutionary Psychology and do everything in their power to discredit it.

Socialization can curb our impulses and in some cases that's a good thing, but it can't change them fundamentally. Or shoulkd I say to change them fundamentally it needs a very long time and it will only happen if said changes improve your chances to reproduce/survive.
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SHARK

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2022, 12:13:19 PM »
I don't think this is a bad example. You can read the following links if you want insight into my views:
Only one of your links has anything to do with biology, and it doesn't even support your position. But since you're not interested in discussing your example further, I'll drop it as well.

I'm still going to argue against the idea that everything is culturally determined. It's not. If elves were a real race, they'd be wired differently than humans. But how do we represent that in a game? Unfortunately, there I don't think we can take what we know of genetics and neuroscience and extract much gameable material. We're a complex web of innate tendencies and learned elements, and we've only started to untangle the two, and what we do know usually translates into hormone X activates receptor Y and that has a 1.2% association with behavior or trait Z, and it also does 300 other things we don't understand that well. To make it even more complex, the expression is often influenced by environmental factors, which means learned and innate are even harder to separate. Translating that into human behavior or traits is like trying to explain a sonnet using quantum theory.

But I think we can distill two lessons: 1) biology matters, and 2) biology isn't destiny. Think of biology as a set of predispositions or tendencies, and culture as an overlay that can creatively reinterpret or even suppress those tendencies, but can't erase them.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, Pat. I agree.

I'm reminded of what several of my professors in college explained. Biology and Culture are both enormously powerful factors in influencing human beings. Many things absolutely hinge on biology, while many aspects are interpreted and influenced by culture. Where *exactly* such a line exists, where one factor ends and another factor begins, is at least for now, honestly unknowable. I have had biologists, sociologists, anthropologists, and more offer opinions and theories, and all have essentially confirmed such a consensus.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2022, 12:51:29 PM »
I don't think this is a bad example. You can read the following links if you want insight into my views:
Only one of your links has anything to do with biology, and it doesn't even support your position. But since you're not interested in discussing your example further, I'll drop it as well.

I'm still going to argue against the idea that everything is culturally determined. It's not. If elves were a real race, they'd be wired differently than humans. But how do we represent that in a game? Unfortunately, there I don't think we can take what we know of genetics and neuroscience and extract much gameable material. We're a complex web of innate tendencies and learned elements, and we've only started to untangle the two, and what we do know usually translates into hormone X activates receptor Y and that has a 1.2% association with behavior or trait Z, and it also does 300 other things we don't understand that well. To make it even more complex, the expression is often influenced by environmental factors, which means learned and innate are even harder to separate. Translating that into human behavior or traits is like trying to explain a sonnet using quantum theory.

But I think we can distill two lessons: 1) biology matters, and 2) biology isn't destiny. Think of biology as a set of predispositions or tendencies, and culture as an overlay that can creatively reinterpret or even suppress those tendencies, but can't erase them.

The experiment has been done, Sweden IIRC produces far less women engineers than India, the proportion of women choosing traditional female careers is greater than in other western countries and much larger than in the developing world or third world as long as women are allowed to study (islamic countries don't apply), and it's considered the more egualitarian country.

Human evolution doesn't stop at the neck.

It's why the woke hate Evolutionary Psychology and do everything in their power to discredit it.

Socialization can curb our impulses and in some cases that's a good thing, but it can't change them fundamentally. Or shoulkd I say to change them fundamentally it needs a very long time and it will only happen if said changes improve your chances to reproduce/survive.
Evopsych is mostly pseudoscience. It's a series of just-so stories based on arbitrary (and often faulty) premises that can't be tested the overwhelming majority of the time. Most evopsych hypotheses boil down to "why/how did humans evolve to engage in [insert social conditioning from the asker's WEIRD culture]?"

I say that as someone who genuinely believes the argumentative hypothesis of reasoning. Long story short: humans invented reasoning to win arguments, not to find truth. Which explains so much of online "discourse."

Pat
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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2022, 01:12:27 PM »
I don't think everything is culturally determined either, but it's difficult to determine what is and isn't based on our available (and extremely biased) data. This leads to culture-specific social conditioning original from specific points in space and time (what you called "WEIRD") being mistaken as an innate genetic tendency found universally in humans. This leads to false conclusions being drawn about what humans were, are, will be, and can be, which in turn reinforces close-minded attitudes about human nature and our ability to change and adapt. These attitudes can potentially be detrimental, but that's a whole other discussion.

Which doesn't give a very good foundation for imaging how genuine non-human intelligences might operate. In a lot of speculative fiction, non-humans are basically assigned monolithic cultures that are conflated with their biology and little to no attempt to made to explore cultural differences within the species that defy supposed biological truths. I get that it's really easy to default to these stereotypes and that explains their continued prevalence, alongside LotR just being hugely popular and influential and basically reducing most following fantasy fiction to Tolkien-clones. It still frustrates me.
I'm ignoring the activism part, because I think the so-called cures are often worse than the disease.

And the WEIRD part isn't really about the incomprehensibility of the alien, but why a lot of current understanding of how humans work isn't universal even within the human experience -- all those psych studies that were done on students in top tier universities in the West are horribly misleading because those students are completely anomalous compared to the rest of the world, and the entire rest of history. Western civilization is a true outlier, in the human experience. You'd have a hard time picking a less representative sample.

But I also agree that extrapolating from what we do know about how the human mind works to truly alien minds is very hard, likely impossible. We have a case study of 1: Us. That tells us very little about what may be possible. That's probably why my favorite science fiction which deals with the concept of the alien often punts. The Strugatsky brothers' Roadside Picnic, Lem's Fiasco, etc. -- they're all about the gulf between the human and the alien, and how it may be fundamentally unbridgeable.

Which is why all the aliens in RPGs are humans in funny suits, with a few minor tweaks. And that's not a bad thing, but it does mean that RPGs are ill-suited to really deal with the truly alien. The best we're likely to get are something like Traveller's aliens, Jorune's whatevers that almost nobody played, or some of the better treatments of the fey or faeries.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 01:14:05 PM by Pat »

Pat
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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2022, 01:27:03 PM »
I say that as someone who genuinely believes the argumentative hypothesis of reasoning. Long story short: humans invented reasoning to win arguments, not to find truth. Which explains so much of online "discourse."
I'd phrase that more as humans developed the ability to argue and support their points in an attempt to rationalize their pre-existing beliefs and convince others, rather than reasoning for the purpose of coming to a rational conclusion. We start with the answer, and use logic to justify it, instead of starting with logic and seeking the correct answer. But beyond a few changes in wording, I agree. We -- all of us, including you and me -- are fundamentally irrational.

Have you read Sapolsky's Behave? It's an extraordinary summary of what we currently know of how people think, using everything from genetics, to neuroscience, endocrinology, anthropology, psychology, sociology, and more. It covers a lot of what I've been talking about regarding genes, brain structure, and the influence of culture, as well as the point you just made, and lots more.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 01:29:11 PM by Pat »

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2022, 01:57:15 PM »
I'm ignoring the activism part, because I think the so-called cures are often worse than the disease.
Activists argue tabula rasa not because they're interested in exploring human potential but because they're pornsick istaphobic fascists.

I'm not an activist. I used to think that activists had a point about D&D promoting race essentialism, until I saw the statistics showing that it has no real world implications. Using orcs doesn't have any correlation with racist attitudes.

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2022, 02:25:58 PM »
I'm ignoring the activism part, because I think the so-called cures are often worse than the disease.
Activists argue tabula rasa not because they're interested in exploring human potential but because they're pornsick istaphobic fascists.

I'm not an activist. I used to think that activists had a point about D&D promoting race essentialism, until I saw the statistics showing that it has no real world implications. Using orcs doesn't have any correlation with racist attitudes.

So evopsych is BS but Tabulla rasa is also Bs...

And yet evopsych does have explanatory and prediction powers...
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jhkim

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2022, 11:55:01 PM »
But I think we can distill two lessons: 1) biology matters, and 2) biology isn't destiny. Think of biology as a set of predispositions or tendencies, and culture as an overlay that can creatively reinterpret or even suppress those tendencies, but can't erase them.

The experiment has been done, Sweden IIRC produces far less women engineers than India, the proportion of women choosing traditional female careers is greater than in other western countries and much larger than in the developing world or third world as long as women are allowed to study (islamic countries don't apply), and it's considered the more egualitarian country.

Human evolution doesn't stop at the neck.

From my view, we don't have to answer the real-life question of nature vs nurture in order to play a game -- and especially, it doesn't have to be encoded into the RPG rules system. If a player wants to play a woman engineer, it doesn't matter if the rules designer thinks that women's brains are genetically encoded to be worse at engineering. The question can and should be passed to the GM and players. If the GM allows a woman engineer as a PC, then the game system should handle it as an equal choice, in my opinion.

The same goes for fantasy races. The game designer doesn't have to enforce how much dwarfness is from the environment of typical dwarven upbringing versus encoded in their dwarf DNA (if dwarves even have DNA). If we're doing straight random-roll, then the dwarf package should reflect how we expect a dwarf PC to be raised. If a GM wants to allow an elf raised in a dwarven community, then the GM can come up with a new package and/or extrapolate. Do they get dwarven knowledge of stonework? The GM can pick.

If characters are designed/chosen (like roll and arrange), then the rules should remain neutral and just try to make options be equal. Can dwarves even be wizards? We can let the GM decide. If dwarves can be wizards, then the rules should try to make dwarven wizards an equal choice in character creation, rather than trying to enforce rarity by game balance.


That's why broad stereotypes, exaggerated focus on one human characteristic, and monocultures exist in RPGs. It's what the medium supports. If you want to create an alien culture with the diversity and range of all human cultures, you're going to have to write a book or a monograph; it simply won't work at the table.

Sure, most non-human PCs and NPCs will just be humans with funny ears or accents - and the races are likely to be monocultural and thin. But that doesn't mean that those tendencies should be enforced or encouraged by the rules. They can just happen to the degree that the GM and players want.