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Author Topic: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?  (Read 13578 times)

Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2022, 12:34:30 AM »
From my view, we don't have to answer the real-life question of nature vs nurture in order to play a game -- and especially, it doesn't have to be encoded into the RPG rules system.

You're right that a game's rules don't have to encode a nature-nurture distinction in order to produce workable characters, but I think it is true that in most settings that make a nod to detail in verisimilitude, this distinction will get acknowledged and explored sooner or later.

Hence I think it's generally inevitable that the rules will define how to make this distinction (albeit without necessarily requiring any one campaign or setting to do so), if only so that the GM has a quick shorthand to distinguish template elements which can be easily changed from those which can't.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2022, 01:23:36 AM »
But I think we can distill two lessons: 1) biology matters, and 2) biology isn't destiny. Think of biology as a set of predispositions or tendencies, and culture as an overlay that can creatively reinterpret or even suppress those tendencies, but can't erase them.

The experiment has been done, Sweden IIRC produces far less women engineers than India, the proportion of women choosing traditional female careers is greater than in other western countries and much larger than in the developing world or third world as long as women are allowed to study (islamic countries don't apply), and it's considered the more egualitarian country.

Human evolution doesn't stop at the neck.

From my view, we don't have to answer the real-life question of nature vs nurture in order to play a game -- and especially, it doesn't have to be encoded into the RPG rules system. If a player wants to play a woman engineer, it doesn't matter if the rules designer thinks that women's brains are genetically encoded to be worse at engineering. The question can and should be passed to the GM and players. If the GM allows a woman engineer as a PC, then the game system should handle it as an equal choice, in my opinion.

The same goes for fantasy races. The game designer doesn't have to enforce how much dwarfness is from the environment of typical dwarven upbringing versus encoded in their dwarf DNA (if dwarves even have DNA). If we're doing straight random-roll, then the dwarf package should reflect how we expect a dwarf PC to be raised. If a GM wants to allow an elf raised in a dwarven community, then the GM can come up with a new package and/or extrapolate. Do they get dwarven knowledge of stonework? The GM can pick.

If characters are designed/chosen (like roll and arrange), then the rules should remain neutral and just try to make options be equal. Can dwarves even be wizards? We can let the GM decide. If dwarves can be wizards, then the rules should try to make dwarven wizards an equal choice in character creation, rather than trying to enforce rarity by game balance.


That's why broad stereotypes, exaggerated focus on one human characteristic, and monocultures exist in RPGs. It's what the medium supports. If you want to create an alien culture with the diversity and range of all human cultures, you're going to have to write a book or a monograph; it simply won't work at the table.

Sure, most non-human PCs and NPCs will just be humans with funny ears or accents - and the races are likely to be monocultural and thin. But that doesn't mean that those tendencies should be enforced or encouraged by the rules. They can just happen to the degree that the GM and players want.

Even creation ex nihilo allows for evolution after the fact.

If there's half-elves, half-orcs, etc this implies those are related to humans, ergo ADN. Why would darves be different?

Nothing HAS to, and nothing HAS NOT to.
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jhkim

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2022, 01:34:08 AM »
The same goes for fantasy races. The game designer doesn't have to enforce how much dwarfness is from the environment of typical dwarven upbringing versus encoded in their dwarf DNA (if dwarves even have DNA). If we're doing straight random-roll, then the dwarf package should reflect how we expect a dwarf PC to be raised. If a GM wants to allow an elf raised in a dwarven community, then the GM can come up with a new package and/or extrapolate. Do they get dwarven knowledge of stonework? The GM can pick.

Even creation ex nihilo allows for evolution after the fact.

If there's half-elves, half-orcs, etc this implies those are related to humans, ergo ADN. Why would darves be different?

Nothing HAS to, and nothing HAS NOT to.

Regarding DNA, fantasy worlds often don't work identically to modern science. In some fantasy worlds, the elements are explicitly air/earth/fire/water rather than hydrogen/helium/etc. - and the heavens might be celestial spheres or aether. In Glorantha, elves are animate plants and dwarves are living stone. There are lots of possibilities, as you say.

For a system that is intended to adapt to multiple settings, I think it's better to not build into the rules particular setting assumptions.

GeekyBugle

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2022, 01:58:00 AM »
The same goes for fantasy races. The game designer doesn't have to enforce how much dwarfness is from the environment of typical dwarven upbringing versus encoded in their dwarf DNA (if dwarves even have DNA). If we're doing straight random-roll, then the dwarf package should reflect how we expect a dwarf PC to be raised. If a GM wants to allow an elf raised in a dwarven community, then the GM can come up with a new package and/or extrapolate. Do they get dwarven knowledge of stonework? The GM can pick.

Even creation ex nihilo allows for evolution after the fact.

If there's half-elves, half-orcs, etc this implies those are related to humans, ergo ADN. Why would darves be different?

Nothing HAS to, and nothing HAS NOT to.

Regarding DNA, fantasy worlds often don't work identically to modern science. In some fantasy worlds, the elements are explicitly air/earth/fire/water rather than hydrogen/helium/etc. - and the heavens might be celestial spheres or aether. In Glorantha, elves are animate plants and dwarves are living stone. There are lots of possibilities, as you say.

For a system that is intended to adapt to multiple settings, I think it's better to not build into the rules particular setting assumptions.

Glorantha ISN'T D&D tho.

SOME Fantasy worlds don't others do follow science up to a point. In D&D in particular you have lead, bronze, iron, steel, alcohol, gold, silver precious gems (the same as earth mostly), etc. And some fantasy materials...

Then you have half-this or that, plus humans with different skin tones... All of which points to evolution AND DNA.

But even if you had plant elves... Plants have DNA, we can't interbreed with them but we also can't interbreed with most mammals and probably only with two primates (chimps and bonobos).

Now lets postulate an alien species, sexually dimorphic, reproduces sexually, even if their biology was totally different from us they would need something LIKE DNA.

As soon as you introduce sexual dimorphism/reproduction you introduce evolution. And we KNOW D&D dwarves (and all other sentient species) have male and female.

So why would their evolution stop at the neck? And don't give me another "because Dragons!" (that's all your last two posts have been).

We KNOW humans can build boats to sail the seas... And yet there's never been a Tibetan navy...

You guys want to have dwarves/elves/halflings/gnomes/kender/etc of all human colors WITHOUT evolution... HOW?
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2022, 10:10:47 AM »
D&D "science" is an incoherent mess that no thought was put into. It's a nonsensical mishmash of obsolete scientific theories like the classical elements as well as modern science like evolution that the classical philosophers had no knowledge of (they thought the world and life in it was eternal and unchanging). It's impossible to make sense of because it's an ad hoc creation rather than a product of first principles.

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2022, 11:34:57 AM »
D&D "science" is an incoherent mess that no thought was put into. It's a nonsensical mishmash of obsolete scientific theories like the classical elements as well as modern science like evolution that the classical philosophers had no knowledge of (they thought the world and life in it was eternal and unchanging). It's impossible to make sense of because it's an ad hoc creation rather than a product of first principles.
It was written by modern people who have spent their entire lives under the shadow of modern science, and their core assumptions about how our world works form the bedrock for how the fictional worlds of D&D work.

Throwing in a few retro things like the classical elements is the anomaly. Even magic is usually treated like a science, and not like magic.

jhkim

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2022, 12:41:49 PM »
SOME Fantasy worlds don't others do follow science up to a point. In D&D in particular you have lead, bronze, iron, steel, alcohol, gold, silver precious gems (the same as earth mostly), etc. And some fantasy materials...

Then you have half-this or that, plus humans with different skin tones... All of which points to evolution AND DNA.

But even if you had plant elves... Plants have DNA, we can't interbreed with them but we also can't interbreed with most mammals and probably only with two primates (chimps and bonobos).
As soon as you introduce sexual dimorphism/reproduction you introduce evolution. And we KNOW D&D dwarves (and all other sentient species) have male and female.

So why would their evolution stop at the neck? And don't give me another "because Dragons!" (that's all your last two posts have been).

First of all, in the real world, evolution started long before sexual reproduction.

And I didn't say anything about evolution stopping at the neck. I'm saying that evolution doesn't matter for a game. In the real world, our genetics most certainly affects how we think - but in a game, there's no need for rules differentiating genetics from environment. As GM, I can come up with a complex backstory for my fantasy world where humans evolved mitochondrial DNA encoding a cellular link to magical energy from the eighth dimension, and most likely none of that is going to matter for fantasy adventures.

Also, there can be inheritance and half-breeds without there being modern science or evolution. In a fantasy world, half-elves could be formed by the merging of the divine sparks of a human and elven parent, or the essential bodily humors, or whatever. Elves could be born inherently with their skill with the bow as part of their blood and bone, or it could be taught to them at a young age.


An issue for the game is that the player Lee is asking to play a dwarf wizard. How is that handled in the game? As GM, I can say that he can't play a dwarf wizard because they don't exist in my world or because they are too rare and are NPC-only. Or maybe dwarf wizards are normal, or they're rare but he can still play one. I'm saying that's something for the GM to decide based on his setting.

GeekyBugle

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #67 on: June 01, 2022, 01:34:31 PM »
SOME Fantasy worlds don't others do follow science up to a point. In D&D in particular you have lead, bronze, iron, steel, alcohol, gold, silver precious gems (the same as earth mostly), etc. And some fantasy materials...

Then you have half-this or that, plus humans with different skin tones... All of which points to evolution AND DNA.

But even if you had plant elves... Plants have DNA, we can't interbreed with them but we also can't interbreed with most mammals and probably only with two primates (chimps and bonobos).
As soon as you introduce sexual dimorphism/reproduction you introduce evolution. And we KNOW D&D dwarves (and all other sentient species) have male and female.

So why would their evolution stop at the neck? And don't give me another "because Dragons!" (that's all your last two posts have been).

First of all, in the real world, evolution started long before sexual reproduction.

And I didn't say anything about evolution stopping at the neck. I'm saying that evolution doesn't matter for a game. In the real world, our genetics most certainly affects how we think - but in a game, there's no need for rules differentiating genetics from environment. As GM, I can come up with a complex backstory for my fantasy world where humans evolved mitochondrial DNA encoding a cellular link to magical energy from the eighth dimension, and most likely none of that is going to matter for fantasy adventures.

Also, there can be inheritance and half-breeds without there being modern science or evolution. In a fantasy world, half-elves could be formed by the merging of the divine sparks of a human and elven parent, or the essential bodily humors, or whatever. Elves could be born inherently with their skill with the bow as part of their blood and bone, or it could be taught to them at a young age.


An issue for the game is that the player Lee is asking to play a dwarf wizard. How is that handled in the game? As GM, I can say that he can't play a dwarf wizard because they don't exist in my world or because they are too rare and are NPC-only. Or maybe dwarf wizards are normal, or they're rare but he can still play one. I'm saying that's something for the GM to decide based on his setting.

Yep, evolution starts before sexual reproduction... So why is it that there's none in a fantasy world?

As for dwarven wizards... You would need to remove their magic resistance IMHO.

You're correct that there's no need for rules to encode evolution, it's just a part of the setting. Like I said: Even Creatio Ex-Nihilo allows for evolution after the fact.

You can harp all you want about how half-anything doesn't need it, everybody will assume it to be a part of the setting. Same goes for different skin colors. Double so if you put them where we know they should be, and if you change their environment people will find it hard to accept and immersion breaking.

So the Drow should be paper white, or they don't live in perpetual darkness, their environment somehow resembles Africa. They should also be the stem Elves.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #68 on: June 01, 2022, 02:07:36 PM »
D&D "science" is an incoherent mess that no thought was put into. It's a nonsensical mishmash of obsolete scientific theories like the classical elements as well as modern science like evolution that the classical philosophers had no knowledge of (they thought the world and life in it was eternal and unchanging). It's impossible to make sense of because it's an ad hoc creation rather than a product of first principles.
It was written by modern people who have spent their entire lives under the shadow of modern science, and their core assumptions about how our world works form the bedrock for how the fictional worlds of D&D work.

Throwing in a few retro things like the classical elements is the anomaly.
As well as young earth creationism. Even down to having dinosaurs still alive. Because that makes perfect sense.

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Even magic is usually treated like a science, and not like magic.
Speaking of, Kim wrote an article about this years ago: https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html

Pat
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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #69 on: June 01, 2022, 02:38:47 PM »
D&D "science" is an incoherent mess that no thought was put into. It's a nonsensical mishmash of obsolete scientific theories like the classical elements as well as modern science like evolution that the classical philosophers had no knowledge of (they thought the world and life in it was eternal and unchanging). It's impossible to make sense of because it's an ad hoc creation rather than a product of first principles.
It was written by modern people who have spent their entire lives under the shadow of modern science, and their core assumptions about how our world works form the bedrock for how the fictional worlds of D&D work.

Throwing in a few retro things like the classical elements is the anomaly.
As well as young earth creationism. Even down to having dinosaurs still alive. Because that makes perfect sense.
Is Prachett a flat-earther?

Of course not, Discworld is a fantasy world. It doesn't represent his real world beliefs. Using "young earth creationism" to describe a fantasy world is equally ridiculous.

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Even magic is usually treated like a science, and not like magic.
Kim used to not be an idiot. A long time ago.

Shasarak

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2022, 05:00:55 PM »
D&D "science" is an incoherent mess that no thought was put into. It's a nonsensical mishmash of obsolete scientific theories like the classical elements as well as modern science like evolution that the classical philosophers had no knowledge of (they thought the world and life in it was eternal and unchanging). It's impossible to make sense of because it's an ad hoc creation rather than a product of first principles.
It was written by modern people who have spent their entire lives under the shadow of modern science, and their core assumptions about how our world works form the bedrock for how the fictional worlds of D&D work.

Throwing in a few retro things like the classical elements is the anomaly.
As well as young earth creationism. Even down to having dinosaurs still alive. Because that makes perfect sense.

I can accept having Dragons in my Dungeons and Dragons but having Dinosaurs is just absurd.
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Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2022, 07:13:34 PM »
Even magic is usually treated like a science, and not like magic.

That's because to be a valuable tactical resource in a game, magic's effects have to derive reliably and predictably from the choices made by the player, and the player has to know what output he'll get from a given input. Magic that didn't obey any rules the players could actually figure out about how to use it would pretty swiftly be abandoned as a tool.

Considered as a game element, any template designed to be mostly consistent whenever used promotes "essentialism" for characters of the type covered by that template, because a group's "essence" is whatever is common to the vast majority of members of that group.
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Pat
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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2022, 07:37:44 PM »
Even magic is usually treated like a science, and not like magic.

That's because to be a valuable tactical resource in a game, magic's effects have to derive reliably and predictably from the choices made by the player, and the player has to know what output he'll get from a given input. Magic that didn't obey any rules the players could actually figure out about how to use it would pretty swiftly be abandoned as a tool.
You're conflating rules with science. They're not the same thing.

Shasarak

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #73 on: June 01, 2022, 07:53:32 PM »
Even magic is usually treated like a science, and not like magic.

That's because to be a valuable tactical resource in a game, magic's effects have to derive reliably and predictably from the choices made by the player, and the player has to know what output he'll get from a given input. Magic that didn't obey any rules the players could actually figure out about how to use it would pretty swiftly be abandoned as a tool.
You're conflating rules with science. They're not the same thing.

Science is the process of finding the rules of magic.

If magic has any rules then Science can find them.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: D&D Promotes Race Essentialism?
« Reply #74 on: June 01, 2022, 08:22:37 PM »
We've been over this. If the magic system is too erratic, players aren't going to use it as much.