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Author Topic: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.  (Read 342185 times)

Brad

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1830 on: April 16, 2021, 09:44:09 AM »
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/officials-allow-only-covid-vaccinated-people-to-board-ships-evacuating-caribbean-volcanic-eruption/

A volcano in the Caribbean erupted last week. This isn't an eruption like the one in Iceland that shut down air travel in Europe a decade ago by throwing a lot of ash into the sky. No, this was a huge explosion followed by pyroclastic flows. Which, if you don't know, are superheated ash and gas that kill anyone it touches. In other words, like lava, except it travels 60-125 miles per hour. Good luck outrunning that.

So they're evacuating the island.

But only the people who had covid vaccinations.

Shame the guillotine went out of fashion as a form of neckwear for politicians.

Sorry, this is just hilarious to me. The same fucktards are just running around shouting at the top of their lungs that none of this sort of crap actually exists and call you a conspiracy theorist because CNN tells them what to think. Yeah, they're not coming for your guns! There won't be any interment camps for people who refuse to get vaccinated! No one is gonna burn your RPGs!

Right...
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

jhkim

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1831 on: April 16, 2021, 11:01:36 AM »
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/officials-allow-only-covid-vaccinated-people-to-board-ships-evacuating-caribbean-volcanic-eruption/

A volcano in the Caribbean erupted last week. This isn't an eruption like the one in Iceland that shut down air travel in Europe a decade ago by throwing a lot of ash into the sky. No, this was a huge explosion followed by pyroclastic flows. Which, if you don't know, are superheated ash and gas that kill anyone it touches. In other words, like lava, except it travels 60-125 miles per hour. Good luck outrunning that.

So they're evacuating the island.

But only the people who had covid vaccinations.

Shame the guillotine went out of fashion as a form of neckwear for politicians.

Thanks for the info, Pat. I hadn't heard about this previously. Your post made it sound like people were being killed by superfast flows, though, which doesn't seem to be the case. From reading updates since Tuesday, though, here's what I gather:

(1) There have been no casualties reported.
(2) They are not evacuating the entire island. They are evacuating 16-20% of the residents who were in "red zones". (The island has pop 100k, evacuating 16k to 20k.)
(3) The primary danger seems to the usual problems of evacuees - lack of clean water and food, crowding, unhealthy conditions, etc.

Sources:
https://yubanet.com/world/un-to-launch-funding-appeal-for-saint-vincent-and-the-grenadines-following-volcano-eruption/
https://reliefweb.int/report/saint-vincent-and-grenadines/education-hold-saint-vincent-fallout-volcano-continues
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/roughly-20000-people-displaced-by-ongoing-volcanic-eruptions-in-st-vincent/ar-BB1fEEUK
https://www.foxnews.com/world/st-vincent-covid-19-positive-cases-climb-volcano-eruption

Given this, it seems likely that among the evacuees, more people will be killed by covid than by pyroclastic flows - so it seems appropriate to worry about both. That doesn't mean abandoning people who are infected - but it will mean trying to keep people separate. Thus far, Saint Vincent has had only 1800 infections and 10 deaths from covid, so if the disease does spread unchecked, dozens more could die - especially with overcrowding and unhealthy conditions.

Source: https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/saint-vincent-and-the-grenadines/

Pat
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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1832 on: April 16, 2021, 11:48:59 AM »
Your post made it sound like people were being killed by superfast flows...
Only if you read things into my post that aren't there. Though you could read my post and think people were directly fleeing an eruption, instead of being evacuated because there was an eruption nearby, because I didn't go into much detail. But I assumed that the timing (last week) and common knowledge of how eruptions work (people fleeing lava or pyroclastic flows are things that only really happen in movies) would dispel any confusion, and even if not, anyone interested in the subject would click on the link.

Some of your assumptions are sketchy. Dozens dead from covid assumes all 20K people being evacuated catch the disease, which is not even close to a realistic assumption. And the whole point is the government's decision. It wasn't to isolate or otherwise trying to contain people who might be infected, or otherwise taking reasonable measures to mitigate any potential problems. They're not even, like the cruise ship itself, insisting on a negative PCR test. Their position is no shot, no evacuation. That's more than appalling. It's in the same category as death camps or death squads.

Brad

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1833 on: April 16, 2021, 11:52:39 AM »
Your post made it sound like people were being killed by superfast flows...
Only if you read things into my post that aren't there. Though you could read my post and think people were directly fleeing an eruption, instead of being evacuated because there was an eruption nearby, because I didn't go into much detail. But I assumed that the timing (last week) and common knowledge of how eruptions work (people fleeing lava or pyroclastic flows are things that only really happen in movies) would dispel any confusion, and even if not, anyone interested in the subject would click on the link.

Some of your assumptions are sketchy. Dozens dead from covid assumes all 20K people being evacuated catch the disease, which is not even close to a realistic assumption. And the whole point is the government's decision. It wasn't to isolate or otherwise trying to contain people who might be infected, or otherwise taking reasonable measures to mitigate any potential problems. They're not even, like the cruise ship itself, insisting on a negative PCR test. Their position is no shot, no evacuation. That's more than appalling. It's in the same category as death camps or death squads.

Why do you still keep responding to this communist? He has got to be on the CCP payroll for all the bullshit he posts.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

This Guy
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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1834 on: April 16, 2021, 11:58:52 AM »
Your post made it sound like people were being killed by superfast flows...
Only if you read things into my post that aren't there. Though you could read my post and think people were directly fleeing an eruption, instead of being evacuated because there was an eruption nearby, because I didn't go into much detail. But I assumed that the timing (last week) and common knowledge of how eruptions work (people fleeing lava or pyroclastic flows are things that only really happen in movies) would dispel any confusion, and even if not, anyone interested in the subject would click on the link.

Some of your assumptions are sketchy. Dozens dead from covid assumes all 20K people being evacuated catch the disease, which is not even close to a realistic assumption. And the whole point is the government's decision. It wasn't to isolate or otherwise trying to contain people who might be infected, or otherwise taking reasonable measures to mitigate any potential problems. They're not even, like the cruise ship itself, insisting on a negative PCR test. Their position is no shot, no evacuation. That's more than appalling. It's in the same category as death camps or death squads.

Why do you still keep responding to this communist? He has got to be on the CCP payroll for all the bullshit he posts.

Everybody deserves a voice even mentally challenged people like you and me.
I don't want to play with you.

jhkim

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1835 on: April 16, 2021, 12:29:44 PM »
Your post made it sound like people were being killed by superfast flows...
Only if you read things into my post that aren't there. Though you could read my post and think people were directly fleeing an eruption, instead of being evacuated because there was an eruption nearby, because I didn't go into much detail. But I assumed that the timing (last week) and common knowledge of how eruptions work (people fleeing lava or pyroclastic flows are things that only really happen in movies) would dispel any confusion, and even if not, anyone interested in the subject would click on the link.

Some of your assumptions are sketchy. Dozens dead from covid assumes all 20K people being evacuated catch the disease, which is not even close to a realistic assumption. And the whole point is the government's decision. It wasn't to isolate or otherwise trying to contain people who might be infected, or otherwise taking reasonable measures to mitigate any potential problems. They're not even, like the cruise ship itself, insisting on a negative PCR test. Their position is no shot, no evacuation. That's more than appalling. It's in the same category as death camps or death squads.

The usual problem people have with death camps is, well, the death. It's that people are being killed.

In this case, though, as far as I can tell, no one has died from the pyroclastic flows - and everyone from the affected areas was successfully evacuated.

I don't have enough information to tell exactly how that was accomplished, but I would guess that unvaccinated people were evacuated by means other than cruise ship -- like by bus or car to the rest of the island, or on fishing boats to other islands (mentioned in the UN article).

As for my assumptions: there's already ten dead from covid on Saint Vincent with less then 2000 infections under normal conditions. If half of the evacuees were infected with the same death rate - that would be fifty dead. But it's likely the rate would be higher with poor conditions among evacuees.

Pat
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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1836 on: April 16, 2021, 12:38:21 PM »
Your post made it sound like people were being killed by superfast flows...
Only if you read things into my post that aren't there. Though you could read my post and think people were directly fleeing an eruption, instead of being evacuated because there was an eruption nearby, because I didn't go into much detail. But I assumed that the timing (last week) and common knowledge of how eruptions work (people fleeing lava or pyroclastic flows are things that only really happen in movies) would dispel any confusion, and even if not, anyone interested in the subject would click on the link.

Some of your assumptions are sketchy. Dozens dead from covid assumes all 20K people being evacuated catch the disease, which is not even close to a realistic assumption. And the whole point is the government's decision. It wasn't to isolate or otherwise trying to contain people who might be infected, or otherwise taking reasonable measures to mitigate any potential problems. They're not even, like the cruise ship itself, insisting on a negative PCR test. Their position is no shot, no evacuation. That's more than appalling. It's in the same category as death camps or death squads.

The usual problem people have with death camps is, well, the death. It's that people are being killed.

In this case, though, as far as I can tell, no one has died from the pyroclastic flows - and everyone from the affected areas was successfully evacuated.

I don't have enough information to tell exactly how that was accomplished, but I would guess that unvaccinated people were evacuated by means other than cruise ship -- like by bus or car to the rest of the island, or on fishing boats to other islands (mentioned in the UN article).

As for my assumptions: there's already ten dead from covid on Saint Vincent with less then 2000 infections under normal conditions. If half of the evacuees were infected with the same death rate - that would be fifty dead. But it's likely the rate would be higher with poor conditions among evacuees.
Yes, and leaving people to to die when a natural disaster happens can lead them to getting killed. That's why this is a problem. And I think even night watchmen state libertarians would agree that not leaving their citizens to the mercy of a volcano is one of the basic functions of a government.

And if they did have alternate plans for unvaccinated people, why does it require speculation and inference from minor details to uncover? This is a PR nightmare, you'd think someone involved would want to clarify that, no, they're really not committing massive human rights violations. Unless they think it's not a problem.

And assuming half the evacuees catch a specific disease seems far beyond extreme.

« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 12:43:40 PM by Pat »

jhkim

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1837 on: April 16, 2021, 01:49:34 PM »
Yes, and leaving people to to die when a natural disaster happens can lead them to getting killed. That's why this is a problem. And I think even night watchmen state libertarians would agree that not leaving their citizens to the mercy of a volcano is one of the basic functions of a government.

And if they did have alternate plans for unvaccinated people, why does it require speculation and inference from minor details to uncover? This is a PR nightmare, you'd think someone involved would want to clarify that, no, they're really not committing massive human rights violations. Unless they think it's not a problem.

And assuming half the evacuees catch a specific disease seems far beyond extreme.

So from the conservative blog post (legalinsurrection.com), it sounds like death camps and massive human rights violations - but maybe it's just a PR nightmare and no one was actually left to die?

If people were actually left to die, that's horrible and I condemn it - but at this point I am skeptical that is actually the case.

If people were *not* left to die, then I think the primary responsibility is on legalinsurrection.com to not lie about it - not on the Saint Vincent government to debunk their false accusations.

Pat
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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1838 on: April 16, 2021, 02:41:54 PM »
So from the conservative blog post (legalinsurrection.com), it sounds like death camps and massive human rights violations - but maybe it's just a PR nightmare and no one was actually left to die?

If people were actually left to die, that's horrible and I condemn it - but at this point I am skeptical that is actually the case.

If people were *not* left to die, then I think the primary responsibility is on legalinsurrection.com to not lie about it - not on the Saint Vincent government to debunk their false accusations.
No, it's repeated across many news sites. I checked at least 3 or 4, and in fact my post originally had another link, but I edited that one in because it covered the details better. First time I've been to their website, in fact. I only ended up there because someone suggested they were doing an okay job of covering the ins and out of the Chauvin trial, and I ran across the article while looking over their feed. That's a massive set of false assumptions on your part, along with a dishonest attempt to impute bias instead of dealing with the facts.

And if you look at the news, it's straightforward. Officials were barring anyone who didn't have a vaccine from being evacuated. That's. Monstrous. This isn't something any reasonable person would debate. That's the reasonable, obvious interpretation of the facts that were presented across multiple news articles.

It's possible this was only part of the picture, and that they had alternate plans. But that's not what the articles said, and as I pointed out, 1) it's generally considered bad optics when news articles are reporting you did something that can be compared to death camps, 2) therefore, they have every incentive to correct it, and 3) it's been a week, so they've had a lot of time to do so. So you think they would have rushed to get their story out.

Your failure to understand this makes it seem like you're being deliberately obtuse. What happened to you? You used to be able to discussion things on their merits without all these weaselly attempts at misinterpreting and maliciously miscasting everything.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:49:00 PM by Pat »

ScytheSong

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1839 on: April 16, 2021, 02:56:16 PM »
What I've read about the St. Vincent evacuation is that the only people being accepted by the surrounding islands are people who have been vaccinated. So the Prime Minister of St. Vincent said that only vaccinated people would be allowed on the cruise ships that are evacuating people to other islands. Meanwhile, the unvaccinated folks are being sent to the unaffected southern half of the island where refugee camps are (still, as of the 4/14 articles I read) being set up. Typical Caribbean inefficiency, but not deliberate malice as far as I can tell.

Snowman0147

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1840 on: April 16, 2021, 03:00:37 PM »
If your forcing people to get killed by a volcano eurption that will Pompeii everything and everyone around it, then you do deserve to burn in hell.

Pat
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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1841 on: April 16, 2021, 03:00:53 PM »
What I've read about the St. Vincent evacuation is that the only people being accepted by the surrounding islands are people who have been vaccinated. So the Prime Minister of St. Vincent said that only vaccinated people would be allowed on the cruise ships that are evacuating people to other islands. Meanwhile, the unvaccinated folks are being sent to the unaffected southern half of the island where refugee camps are (still, as of the 4/14 articles I read) being set up. Typical Caribbean inefficiency, but not deliberate malice as far as I can tell.
That's a reasonable explanation. Still a bad decision, and still begs the question why they didn't get in front of the bad publicity. But it's less death camp and more ghettoization.

Pat
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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1842 on: April 16, 2021, 03:10:51 PM »
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2021/04/16/coronavirus-pfizer-vaccine-booster/9421618581832/

Pfizer CEO says that after people have taken the first two shots, they'll probably need a booster in 6-12 months, and then another one annually.

ScytheSong

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1843 on: April 16, 2021, 03:13:18 PM »
What I've read about the St. Vincent evacuation is that the only people being accepted by the surrounding islands are people who have been vaccinated. So the Prime Minister of St. Vincent said that only vaccinated people would be allowed on the cruise ships that are evacuating people to other islands. Meanwhile, the unvaccinated folks are being sent to the unaffected southern half of the island where refugee camps are (still, as of the 4/14 articles I read) being set up. Typical Caribbean inefficiency, but not deliberate malice as far as I can tell.
That's a reasonable explanation. Still a bad decision, and still begs the question why they didn't get in front of the bad publicity. But it's less death camp and more ghettoization.

Well, there's the entire "Half the island is a disaster zone" thing, where publicity would be less important than disaster relief. On the other hand, refugee camps still without full amenities (like water and latrines) five days after the disaster doesn't exactly contradict the impression that a first-world person would have of death camps.

Pat
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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #1844 on: April 16, 2021, 03:17:18 PM »
What I've read about the St. Vincent evacuation is that the only people being accepted by the surrounding islands are people who have been vaccinated. So the Prime Minister of St. Vincent said that only vaccinated people would be allowed on the cruise ships that are evacuating people to other islands. Meanwhile, the unvaccinated folks are being sent to the unaffected southern half of the island where refugee camps are (still, as of the 4/14 articles I read) being set up. Typical Caribbean inefficiency, but not deliberate malice as far as I can tell.
That's a reasonable explanation. Still a bad decision, and still begs the question why they didn't get in front of the bad publicity. But it's less death camp and more ghettoization.

Well, there's the entire "Half the island is a disaster zone" thing, where publicity would be less important than disaster relief. On the other hand, refugee camps still without full amenities (like water and latrines) five days after the disaster doesn't exactly contradict the impression that a first-world person would have of death camps.
Public relations is part of disaster relief, generally a very big part. It's where the money comes from that allows them to fund it (for non-profits), and where goodwill comes from that gives them the public support needed to act (for the government).

My general reaction to most of that is they're at bigger risk from things like diphtheria than covid-19. If the people on the cruise ships going to other islands are treated much better, it's still a horrible case of discrimination.