This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The message boards have been upgraded. Please log in to your existing account by clicking here. It will ask twice, so that it can properly update your password and login information. If it has trouble recognizing your password, click the 'Forgot your password?' link to reset it with a new password sent to your email address on file.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.  (Read 39420 times)

Kiero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • K
  • Posts: 2106
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #540 on: September 08, 2020, 05:00:24 AM »
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.
Currently running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia in 300BC.

Our podcast site, In Sanity We Trust Productions.

spon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #541 on: September 08, 2020, 05:26:04 AM »
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.


Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."

Kiero

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • K
  • Posts: 2106
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #542 on: September 08, 2020, 05:38:07 AM »
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
Try: fuck off.
Currently running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia in 300BC.

Our podcast site, In Sanity We Trust Productions.

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8946
  • high-minded hack
    • View Profile
    • The Viking Hat GM
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #543 on: September 08, 2020, 07:13:34 AM »
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.
Rules for effective DMing:
1. Bring snacks.
2. The dice are always right.
3. I master the game, the game does not master me.
4. Momentum over perfection.
5. The game must go on!
https://vikinghatgm.blogspot.com

Ghostmaker

  • Chlorine trifluoride
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #544 on: September 08, 2020, 08:51:09 AM »
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.
You shouldn't have any problems referencing appropriate court cases and precedents, then.

Garry G

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • G
  • Posts: 277
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #545 on: September 08, 2020, 01:20:50 PM »
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.


Weirdly enough I've just been reading about this in the Secret Barristers new book, which I highly recommend, and it's actually the basis upon which lawyers argue for reparations in court in England and Wales . The raising of the amount which is claimed for in small claims has unfortunately meant that many more people have had to represent themselves as a small claim does not include legal costs being paid if they win. It's a fascinating chapter.


I suppose it has some bearing on Keiros nonsensical claims as he is liable for some of the effects he has on others besides taxation. I would argue that he has a larger responsibility to others and as a member of society he has gained from our shared responsibility to each other but I wouldn't bother. He's a weird wee man who seems unable to see beyond his own nose so what's the point.


Check out the book though, it's very good.
I'm still having a go at Keeping Cthulhu

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 1614
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #546 on: September 08, 2020, 05:01:03 PM »
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
And if I lived in England, you might have a point. Fortunately God blessed me by making me an American where socialist bullshit can die in a fire.


Of course I also suspect that there’s part of that law beithat being selectively left off of that description... that you only owe others a duty of care IF you caused the problem.


Otherwise literally everyone on the planet is guilty of failure to provide care every time I stub my toe and they took no steps to prevent it or sooth my injury afterwards.

Delete_me

  • .
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 780
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #547 on: September 08, 2020, 05:21:28 PM »
The details differ between the 50 states, but generally that English tort law above is just as valid in the US and has been since... well... since it was just English law and not US law. The duty of care you owe another is a very old concept in the Common Law tort system.
Generally, yes, you must somehow be the cause and the cause must be foreseeable to a reasonable person. (And good luck defining any of those terms. Short version: don't ever try to "everyone is responsible for themselves only" in court without really knowing what you're doing. Get a lawyer or, with the reasoning you've shown in this thread, you're going to be out a shitload of money.)

Hawkwing7423

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • H
  • Posts: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #548 on: September 08, 2020, 11:05:34 PM »
Funny for all this talk of the law, I don't see State Congresses in the US passing laws. Governors are creating mandates with their pens.
The governor of Wisconsin lost in their State Supreme Court but other courts such as in Illinois have been feckless.


Laws are only for some people. See marijuana in the US, sanctuary states, and now COVID mandates.

Kyle Aaron

  • high-minded hack
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8946
  • high-minded hack
    • View Profile
    • The Viking Hat GM
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #549 on: September 08, 2020, 11:07:59 PM »
Try: fuck off.

You shouldn't have any problems referencing appropriate court cases and precedents, then.

You want evidence for the assertion that telling the court to fuck off leads to a bad result for you?
Rules for effective DMing:
1. Bring snacks.
2. The dice are always right.
3. I master the game, the game does not master me.
4. Momentum over perfection.
5. The game must go on!
https://vikinghatgm.blogspot.com

Hawkwing7423

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • H
  • Posts: 98
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #550 on: September 08, 2020, 11:10:55 PM »
You want evidence for the assertion that telling the court to fuck off leads to a bad result for you?
What is the point you are trying to make here? We will or should get sued if we don't abide by the mask totem cult and someone dies of COVID?

Pat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • P
  • Posts: 2436
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #551 on: September 09, 2020, 03:06:23 AM »
On September 2, the CDC imposed a nationwide moratorium on evictions in the US, for everyone making $99,000 or less (twice that for dual filers). All you have to do to qualify is fill out a form from the CDC, and give it to your landlord.

This is notable for a number of reasons. To start, it's completely unprecedented. Before COVID-19, federal government had never suspended rent. Not during the Great Recession, or the Great Depression. Not during past epidemics, like the 1918 flu or the tuberulous outbreaks in the 19th century. Not during any war, including WW2. This is a momentous change and expansion of the fundamental limits of government, yet there was no public debate. A note just appeared in the Federal Register.

It's also the CDC acting under their own authority. There was an earlier halt on evictions, but it was part of the CARES Act. So while it was legally dubious, at least it was passed by Congress, and politicians can theoretically be held responsible. The scope is also remarkable: Unlike the moratorium in the CARES Act, which was limited to federally-backed rentals and mortgages, this new order applies to all rentals, nationwide.

The statute the CDC cites as their authority says:
Quote from: 42 CFR § 70.2.
Whenever the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention determines that the measures taken by health authorities of any State or possession (including political subdivisions thereof) are insufficient to prevent the spread of any of the communicable diseases from such State or possession to any other State or possession, he/she may take such measures to prevent such spread of the diseases as he/she deems reasonably necessary, including inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, and destruction of animals or articles believed to be sources of infection.
That's broadly written, but look at the examples: They're all intended to deal with an outbreak at a specific address. There's not a single hint that it's intended to allow the CDC to preemptively impose such grand costs on individuals and businesses across the country, so the order seems far beyond any possible interpretation of the delegated authority. More than that, the authority is vested in the Director of the CDC, yet the person who signed this order is Nina B. Witkofsky, Acting Chief of Staff. It's unclear who higher in the chain of command was even aware of it.

More than that, it's a horrible idea. Setting the precedent that the federal government can wave their hand and impose huge costs on landlords adds a massive amount of risk, because there's no reason to assume the government will stay their hand next time there's a financial crisis. Landlords will flee this corner of the market, selling their properties at fire sale prices to speculators, resulting in the mostly small businesses who run the low end of the rental market consolidating into a smaller number of much larger businesses. Prices will rise for tenants, and landlords will become more distant and less responsive.

Not to mention the damage done to the economy as a whole when the government decides it can void or amend contracts, at a whim.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-eviction-declaration.html
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/09/04/2020-19654/temporary-halt-in-residential-evictions-to-prevent-the-further-spread-of-covid-19
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/70.2
https://reason.com/2020/09/01/the-statutory-authority-for-the-nationwide-eviction-moratorium/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 04:37:57 AM by Pat »

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 1614
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #552 on: September 09, 2020, 06:06:32 AM »
Funny for all this talk of the law, I don't see State Congresses in the US passing laws. Governors are creating mandates with their pens.
Our feckless governor tried to make his fiat mask mandate a crime subject to fines and imprisonment until our still sane state attorney general said it would be against the law to make make that rule without approval of both houses of the state legislature.


So he backed of and rewrote it so that there’s no penalty to not wearing a mask, you’re just supposed to feel really bad about not wearing your medically useless but government approved symbol of submission.


That’s basically where a lot of this country is at; governors ignoring their state constitutions to make illegal edicts that are wrecking people’s lives.


My favorite bit of insanity... in that it proves just how utterly stupid the decision-making is... happened when I was picking up lunch for my dad at Taco Bell. The management decided they wanted to reduce contact even further so they have you put your payment in a cup instead of just handing it to the gloved worker. Then the worker has to pull the payment out and either swipe the card or make change WITH THEIR HANDS, put it back in the cup and give it back to you.


Extra steps added? Two, Contacts actually reduced? Zero.


And to top it off the attendant who was sharing the exasperation over the stupidity of it told me they’ve been reusing the cup all day because the manager didn’t want the expense of a fresh cup for every transaction. So you’re shoving your hand down into a cup to reach your card that’s had every person in line ahead of you doing the exact same thing.


THIS is the epic level of Stupid the fear-mongers have produced; wear useless masks (that depending on the design may actually aerosolize the water droplets of your breath so any contamination actually travels further) while making everyone has to stick their hand into the same cup.


Communist governments routinely had their subjects perform meaningless gestures the subject knew was meaningless or a lie [size=78%]because their participation in the lie degraded people’s resistance to the State.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]The government leaders have had a taste of what totalitarianism feels like and don’t want to give that up. That’s what this endless masking and arbitrary shutdowns are about; it’s a power trip by authoritarian busybodies.[/size]

spon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #553 on: September 09, 2020, 06:36:10 AM »
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
Try: fuck off.
Apology accepted

spon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • View Profile
Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #554 on: September 09, 2020, 06:38:06 AM »
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
And if I lived in England, you might have a point. Fortunately God blessed me by making me an American where socialist bullshit can die in a fire.


Kiero has stated he lives in the UK, so perhaps I do have a point?