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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Zirunel on May 31, 2020, 04:01:23 PM

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on May 31, 2020, 04:01:23 PM
Here we go, a thread for discussing covid , lockdowns, health and economic effects, to keep the subject off the main gaming forum, so have at it!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on May 31, 2020, 09:38:00 PM
Question for HappyDaze, from the main forum

Quote from: Zirunel;1131816
So leaving aside long-term economic effects and sticking to your lane (which I can respect), what are your thoughts on the impact of the "lockdown" or whatever you choose to call it, on treatment of non-covid disease? I know in my jurisdiction ongoing treatment e.g. chemo etc. has continued uninterrupted, but in general, access to non-covid medical care is reduced and for anyone not already involved in a treatment program, there must be some whose conditions have gone undiagnosed, or whose diagnosis or surgery has been delayed (potentially leading to poorer outcomes later on)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on May 31, 2020, 09:49:03 PM
I'm sure the 18.6% increase in anti-depressant users and 14.8% increase in sleep medication users will have NO negative side effects.
https://nypost.com/2020/05/25/americans-are-gobbling-anti-anxiety-meds-due-to-coronavirus/

That's gonna be some tasty long term profits from totally-not-habit-forming medications.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on May 31, 2020, 11:25:59 PM
I'll give you an answer after I get back from work tomorrow afternoon. I'm already up too late for a work night as is.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: dkabq on June 01, 2020, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1131823
This I agree with, but the tricky part is trying to determine precisely where the line of what is necessary is to be found. Part of this is because of the lagging nature of the indicators--the effects of a measure are often not fully apparent for 2-4 weeks (and the ripples from those, such as the economic issues, can take far longer. This means that a strong tendency to overcorrect is evident for many reasons, some medical/scientific, and others that are solely political.


This too is inaccurate or, at the least, misleading. Depending on the sources you use, the list of comorbidities is rather long, and can include such things as asthma, hypertension, and even obesity. Such issues impact vast portions of the population. Further, heavy exposure (close & prolonged) can put even the young & healthy at risk of severe infection, and this often impacts health care workers (which then creates secondary issues with caring for others).


By age:
~60% of COVID deaths are 75 or older
~80% of COVID deaths are 65 or older
~93% of COVID deaths are 55 or older
~97% of COVID deaths are 45 or older

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and-S/9bhg-hcku


As for comorbidity, yes the list is long, and there is the issue of how they are correlated with each other (e.g., obesity is correlated with many other health issues in the list) and age (i.e., older people are more likely to have chronic health issues). And, yes the list covers a large segment of the population. Regardless, if you have none of the conditions on the list, it is highly unlikely that you will die from COVID.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/
https://whdh.com/news/nearly-every-mass-coronavirus-death-was-patient-with-underlying-medical-condition-data-shows/
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/health/coronavirus-patients-risk.html
https://www.valleypres.org/For-Patients/Covid-19/Facts.aspx
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2020/04/15/coronavirus-risk-90-patients-had-underlying-conditions/2962721001/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says


One could argue that it is the morbidities that kill, with COVID as the comorbidity (i.e. the straw that breaks the camel's back).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on June 01, 2020, 06:09:48 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1131851
So leaving aside long-term economic effects and sticking to your lane (which I can respect), what are your thoughts on the impact of the "lockdown" or whatever you choose to call it, on treatment of non-covid disease? I know in my jurisdiction ongoing treatment e.g. chemo etc. has continued uninterrupted, but in general, access to non-covid medical care is reduced and for anyone not already involved in a treatment program, there must be some whose conditions have gone undiagnosed, or whose diagnosis or surgery has been delayed (potentially leading to poorer outcomes later on)

I can speak generally about my system and specifically about my orthopedic group. Non-emergent and non-critical care for some conditions has been delayed or reduced, but there are multiple efforts to compensate. Telemedicine/telehealth has grown tremendously from the pandemic, and it's far easier to schedule telehealth visits now. For many things that might have otherwise required a primary care or urgent care visit (particularly those that can be fixed with a simple script or two), a few minutes with a smartphone can get you what you need. The other big push has been for an increase in preventative care--you know, getting patients to do what they are supposed to be doing to stay healthy. The focus on washing hands, wearing masks, and not touching faces can be a sort of a trial for some people to see if/how they can adopt the self-discipline necessary for employing measures to prevent (or, failing that, control) other conditions. Unfortunately, many of them really lack any self-discipline.

Sorry, dinner calls. More later.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: oggsmash on June 02, 2020, 01:22:25 AM
According to the media, Covid is canceled now right?  Once riots were on the menu it seems concerns for the virus went poof.  I think we are going to have serious economic consequences from our lockdown, as well as small business that do survive now have some repairs to pay for.   Stack that with what I would expect to see a huge surge in cases if the media had even a modicum of truth to their support of lockdowns.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on June 02, 2020, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1131915
I can speak generally about my system and specifically about my orthopedic group. Non-emergent and non-critical care for some conditions has been delayed or reduced, but there are multiple efforts to compensate. Telemedicine/telehealth has grown tremendously from the pandemic, and it's far easier to schedule telehealth visits now. For many things that might have otherwise required a primary care or urgent care visit (particularly those that can be fixed with a simple script or two), a few minutes with a smartphone can get you what you need. The other big push has been for an increase in preventative care--you know, getting patients to do what they are supposed to be doing to stay healthy. The focus on washing hands, wearing masks, and not touching faces can be a sort of a trial for some people to see if/how they can adopt the self-discipline necessary for employing measures to prevent (or, failing that, control) other conditions. Unfortunately, many of them really lack any self-discipline.

Sorry, dinner calls. More later.

Thanks for this. Yes wrt primary care, that has been my experience. Faster and more convenient to access than ever, as long as things can be dealt with virtually. I like that a lot, and I hope that is a lasting legacy of this pandemic. In-person visits and gp-ordered tests do still exist, though they have been truncated. Not sure how hard they are to get, it hasn't come up.

And Emergency is way quiet now. And fast, faster than ever. That's one rapid way to get diagnosis for more serious conditions and access to specialist care.

It's not like non-Covid medicine doesn't exist, in some ways it seems more streamlined now, but I still can't help wondering how many chronic, slowly emerging conditions are slipping between the cracks.

EDITED TO ADD: where I am, hospital resources have been carefully marshalled in anticipation of an overwhelming surge. The overwhelming surge never happened, and our curve is flat now. Covid never did overwhelm capacity, so things are already going back to normal. That may or may not mean the marshalling was never necessary or that it was an overreaction. Or that it won't be necessary in the future. We certainly had case clusters and death clusters. I honestly don't know. There's going to be a whole lot of Monday-morning quarterbacking over this.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on June 02, 2020, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1131988
According to the media, Covid is canceled now right?  Once riots were on the menu it seems concerns for the virus went poof.  I think we are going to have serious economic consequences from our lockdown, as well as small business that do survive now have some repairs to pay for.   Stack that with what I would expect to see a huge surge in cases if the media had even a modicum of truth to their support of lockdowns.


Just three weeks ago the media was in horror at the audacity of protestors of the 'lockdown'.  Telling us how irresponsible these protestors were and how thousands would be infected and die because of their selfishness.  Some of these protestors in various States were even armed with rifles,  and yet no windows were broken, no businesses were looted, and no buildings were burned.

Would it be a crazy conspiracy theory to suggest that the some on the left were so upset that businesses are reopening and the economy might recover, that they are behind the destruction as a way to get more favorable election returns?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on June 02, 2020, 02:31:56 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1132214
Would it be a crazy conspiracy theory to suggest that the some on the left were so upset that businesses are reopening and the economy might recover, that they are behind the destruction as a way to get more favorable election returns?

Yes, I believe that would be a crazy conspiracy theory.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on June 02, 2020, 06:04:25 PM
A truly unexpected barrier to lockdown healthcare is that of closed hairdressers. No, I'm serious. We've had numerous appointments cancelled because grandma won't "go out in public" to her appointment until she's had her hair done. And, until very recently, that just wasn't happening and even now many of them are saying their hairdressers are backed up for weeks. Now our appointments are not life and death (orthopedics, remember), but delayed treatments can lead to worsened outcomes (usually requiring more invasive treatments), more pain, and a decline in quality of life. That last part is important because the loss of mobility can quickly lead to other conditions worsening too. So, perhaps hairdressers need to be considered essential personnel too?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on June 02, 2020, 07:17:19 PM
"Essential" business is a ridiculous category in any case and results in stupid examples of Governors and Mayors who get hair cuts and go to the gym while telling everyone else that they can not.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on June 03, 2020, 03:01:49 PM
It's impacting supply chains in many unexpected ways, because breaking even one link impacts everything downstream. So-called "essential" retailers or services, or non-essential ones that are finally permitted to reopen, are ending up with erratic, delayed, and partial shipments. There's also a lag, so starting up everything at once means the shelves will be empty until new products work themselves through the entire chain. This is just another variation of the same problem that faces socialism: The economy's just too complex for a few central planners to decided what's essential and what's not.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on June 03, 2020, 04:54:59 PM
I wonder when people will get angry at this incredibly damaging fraud committed by numerous governments? There was no cause for the lockdowns, nothing but the knee-jerk panic of numerous governments who preferred the optics of following the herd to taking a stand against the hysterical bollocks in the media.

For the sake of "saving" a few thousand of the sickest people who always die in a bad flu season, many thousands more will die as a result of missed diagnoses and treatments, suicides, domestic violence and many other causes. Not to mention the tens of thousands more who will die when this recession bites. One that promises to be the deepest in centuries.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 03, 2020, 09:06:31 PM
Just gonna leave this here without comment. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on June 04, 2020, 04:59:57 AM
Paul Joseph Watson, in a totally dorkmaster hat, explains how the UK defeated CoronaChan.

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on June 04, 2020, 05:07:40 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1132518
Paul Joseph Watson, in a totally dorkmaster hat, explains how the UK defeated CoronaChan.


Greetings!

Paul Joseph Watson is fucking *hilarious*! I've seen many of his programs. They are awesome!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on June 04, 2020, 12:57:05 PM
Love PJW.  Hits the nail on the head with most of his videos.

That being said I totally regret questioning Sweden's approach and getting exasperated at all the usual Swedophiles talking about how wonderful they are.  In this particular case -- they were right!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on June 04, 2020, 07:02:24 PM
Quote from: KingCheops;1132561
Love PJW.  Hits the nail on the head with most of his videos.

That being said I totally regret questioning Sweden's approach and getting exasperated at all the usual Swedophiles talking about how wonderful they are.  In this particular case -- they were right!
Even if someone does turn out to be right, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have questioned it!! What I find most exasperating about the covid-19 issue is how many people default to an answer based on their politics without questioning it -- and furthermore, anyone who holds a different view is clearly insane and/or brainwashed.

Covid-19 is a very new disease, and different studies have found significantly different infection fatality rates as well as other differing features. There has been little time for in-depth analysis, and the conditions vary a lot from country to country. I don't think that six months is sufficient for absolute knowledge of it. We're moving very quickly in studies -- but rushed studies tend to produce inconsistent results.

I'm not convinced that there is a single best approach to public health that works best for every community and country. Some countries have done better than others in terms of rates, but much of that is probably due to differing conditions - not because of the different government response.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on June 04, 2020, 07:41:03 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1132591
Even if someone does turn out to be right, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have questioned it!! What I find most exasperating about the covid-19 issue is how many people default to an answer based on their politics without questioning it -- and furthermore, anyone who holds a different view is clearly insane and/or brainwashed.

Covid-19 is a very new disease, and different studies have found significantly different infection fatality rates as well as other differing features. There has been little time for in-depth analysis, and the conditions vary a lot from country to country. I don't think that six months is sufficient for absolute knowledge of it. We're moving very quickly in studies -- but rushed studies tend to produce inconsistent results.

I'm not convinced that there is a single best approach to public health that works best for every community and country. Some countries have done better than others in terms of rates, but much of that is probably due to differing conditions - not because of the different government response.
That's largely correct, they were acting on imperfect knowledge, and they still don't have a good grasp of the disease. This does take time, but it's also bringing into stark contrast a number of shortcomings. For instance, it's highlighting the deficiencies in the approval processes, which have done tremendous damage (like the FDA refusing to allow anyone except the CDC to develop a test), or have been waived without any damage (and thus shown how much is completely unnecessary). It's also worth noting that much of the "research" related to COVID-19 has been terrible, by the standards of evidence-based medicine:
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2045
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124652/

Another problem is the government agencies have been far too cautious, in some ways. Clinical guidelines or agency standards generally require a high degree of evidence, which just doesn't work when something's new. One example is masks, which common sense tells us should block at least some of the viral load (and worked quite effectively in Asia), but the lack of explicit studies supporting it meant far too many agencies (like the CDC again) were recommending against them, until they did the hamster test. This isn't out of the realm of medical science: Individual physicians have to make subjective decisions all the time based on incomplete evidence. We need to find a middle ground for new and emergent health threats. This would even help in normal times, because there are always new or poorly understood health threats, and waiting until they're sure ends up killing a lot of people.
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa644/5848814
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763852

By contrast, governments have also been far too reckless, when it comes to areas outside their expertise. The economy is the classic example, and if the world was just they'd be trying all the people who were instrumental in shutting down the economy for genocide.
https://wellbeingtrust.org/areas-of-focus/policy-and-advocacy/reports/projected-deaths-of-despair-during-covid-19/
https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/policy_brief_on_covid_impact_on_children_16_april_2020.pdf
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on June 04, 2020, 08:09:57 PM
Quote from: KingCheops;1132561
That being said I totally regret questioning Sweden's approach and getting exasperated at all the usual Swedophiles talking about how wonderful they are.  In this particular case -- they were right!

Sweden smelled the sham, but why everyone else drank the KungFlu Kool-Aid might never be known or understood. The amount of coordinated ignorance in lockstep is stunning, as are the continued laughable lockdowns.

The next step in this dance will be interesting.
Will the protests be blamed for "a huge spike" (LOL) that requires the lockdowns to continue?
And if so, how do they "blame, yet not blame, because blame would be racist"?
Will the new story be "protests didn't cause any cases, but we must stay in lockdown because...reasons"?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: rgalex on June 05, 2020, 09:39:21 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1132603
Sweden smelled the sham, but why everyone else drank the KungFlu Kool-Aid might never be known or understood. The amount of coordinated ignorance in lockstep is stunning, as are the continued laughable lockdowns.

The next step in this dance will be interesting.
Will the protests be blamed for "a huge spike" (LOL) that requires the lockdowns to continue?
And if so, how do they "blame, yet not blame, because blame would be racist"?
Will the new story be "protests didn't cause any cases, but we must stay in lockdown because...reasons"?


They are way ahead of you.

Quote
Mark D. Levine @MarkLevineNYC (https://twitter.com/MarkLevineNYC/status/1268161323088719873) (Chair of New York City Council health committee. Representing District 7, Uptown Manhattan (Washington Heights, West Harlem, UWS).

Jun 3
Let's be clear about something: if there is a spike in coronavirus cases in the next two weeks, don't blame the protesters.

Blame racism.

And let's remember that the police are increasing covid risk by:
* using tear gas
* herding demonstrators into tight spaces
* putting people in crowded jails
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on June 05, 2020, 11:35:40 AM
Lol well Statista just released some numbers comparing Sweden to Norway/Denmark so I'm back to questioning.  I guess we'd need to see Lockdown Deaths + Kung Flu Deaths versus each other but I don't think that'll ever happen.  To hard to sort signal from noise.

Apart from being in a cushy white-collar job where I can work from home and being a lazy bastard who didn't want to have to commute to work anymore I was on the "this is all overblown and just a bad seasonal flu" from the get go.  I'd been on the "what about the other 80% of people who are getting crushed" from the get go.  Really pissed my wife off because she got fully on board with the media fear monger (despite teasing me in January for stocking up on emergency food).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on June 05, 2020, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: KingCheops;1132663
Lol well Statista just released some numbers comparing Sweden to Norway/Denmark so I'm back to questioning.  I guess we'd need to see Lockdown Deaths + Kung Flu Deaths versus each other but I don't think that'll ever happen.  To hard to sort signal from noise.

Apart from being in a cushy white-collar job where I can work from home and being a lazy bastard who didn't want to have to commute to work anymore I was on the "this is all overblown and just a bad seasonal flu" from the get go.  I'd been on the "what about the other 80% of people who are getting crushed" from the get go.  Really pissed my wife off because she got fully on board with the media fear monger (despite teasing me in January for stocking up on emergency food).

Yeah, I think questioning is good. According to Pat, the answers are known and further, your wife is participating in genocide. I consider that over-the-top ridiculous. There's a lot of controversy over the infection rate in Sweden, but I think the more telling issue is what's happening with the economy.

So here's recent financial news in Scandinavia:

Quote
The Norwegian economy contracted 4.7% in April from March but the outlook for the rest of the year now looks less bleak than it did in late April, Statistics Norway (SSB) said on Friday.

The mainland economy, which excludes the volatile offshore oil and gas production, is now forecast to drop 3.9% for the full year compared to the 5.5% fall predicted on April 24 when Norway was in lockdown to halt the novel coronavirus outbreak.

Source: https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/norways-april-gdp-falls-4-7-outlook-seen-less-dire-2

Quote
Sweden's highly contested response to Covid-19 left much of the economy open. Even so, the country is now headed for its worst recession since World War II.

Scandinavia's biggest economy will shrink 7% this year, Finance Minister Magdalena Andersson said on Tuesday. Shortly after she spoke, the debt office revealed an historic 30-fold spike in borrowing to cover emergency spending amid record job losses. A separate survey showed 40% of businesses in Sweden's service sector now fear bankruptcy.

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-19/sweden-in-very-deep-economic-crisis-despite-soft-lockdown

This doesn't mean that Sweden's approach was wrong -- quite possibly they'd be worse off if they had implemented a lockdown like Norway. Different economies are different. But it's one data point against the narrative that the economies would have been fine if only we hadn't had lockdowns.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on June 05, 2020, 02:14:31 PM
Target just announced early looting hours for seniors.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on June 05, 2020, 02:32:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1132591
Even if someone does turn out to be right, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have questioned it!! What I find most exasperating about the covid-19 issue is how many people default to an answer based on their politics without questioning it -- and furthermore, anyone who holds a different view is clearly insane and/or brainwashed.

The inherent problem is that the "credentialed class" is increasingly untrustworthy--not least because they add to all of their other (typical human) faults that for so many of them, what they say has a political motivation.  So it is only self-defense to direct some of the skepticism towards their motivations.  When the thing "noted expert" wants to happen is suspiciously always exactly in line with their usual politics, no matter how little sense it makes in this case, one starts to doubt their judgment or even honesty.

No doubt the usual media being completely in the tank for their own causes is not helping.  For example, I might or might not lend more or less credence to something Dr. Birx or Dr. Fauci said about all of this--keeping in mind their expertise is not in, for example, the economy--but I lend absolutely zero credence to any media report short of an unfiltered transcript of their remarks.  (And even then, I'm not going to be shocked when it turns out the transcript was edited.)  Nor would it be correct to lay this "selective reporting and editing" problem entirely on the left.  It is fair at the moment to lay it entirely on the "globalist" side, whether left, right, or "neutral venal".  

Everything a globalist says is defacto suspect because their track record sucks so poorly.  If they want more respect, earn it, damn it!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on June 05, 2020, 03:55:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1132676
Yeah, I think questioning is good. According to Pat, the answers are known and further, your wife is participating in genocide. I consider that over-the-top ridiculous. There's a lot of controversy over the infection rate in Sweden, but I think the more telling issue is what's happening with the economy.
Fuck you, you miserable piece of shit. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I explicitly said, in fact it was the whole first paragraph of that very post, that we have incomplete information, and that we don't yet have a good grasp on the disease. And I provided sources backing that up. That's 180 degrees away from claiming the answers are known. I've pointed out flaws in the data on both sides, including things like the death rate in Sweden -- which is lower than the European or world averages, but higher than in the other Scandinavian countries. Though also be careful where you source your data -- I've seen a lot of graphs comparing Sweden's overall death toll to the other Scandinavian countries, which is blatantly misleading fake news because Sweden has roughly double the population of any of the other Scandinavian countries.

What's appalling -- and genocidal -- is the complete disregard for the economy shown by those making public policy. We have politicians and medical doctors talking about how we must follow the science and shutdown the economy. Except, what science? Epistemologists are experts on the nature of disease and the spread of infection, not on the economy. In fact, most of them have spent their entire lives in the public sector, so they don't even know what it's like to work in the free market. Yet they've set themselves up as experts on something they quite literally know less about than an average employee in an average company. By contrast, there are no economists up on the stage at any of these briefings. While they do occasionally trot out a few bankers and CEOs, unless you think Phillip Morris determines the science on smoking, or that Exxon should be considered the authoritative voice on the ecological impact of fracking or oil spills, you can't call that science. Not only that, but the economic shutdowns they instituted are completely untested and unprecedented. There's no "science" even on the epistemological side, except some wild speculation and theories.

The word "economy" comes from "economize". We have limited resources, and must decide how to use them, and the economy is how we allocate those resources. It's trivial and disingenuous to say this is about haircuts or McDonald's, because the economy is also how we feed ourselves, how we make medicines, and how we train people in all the specialized tasks needed to support the complex modern world. It's how we fill stores with supplies when they're depleted, how we develop and bring to market new life-saving technologies, and for many people, it's the source of self-esteem and pride. It's our lifeblood. But they shut it down without consulting any experts, looking at the science, or examining the trade offs. Those who destroyed it destroyed livelihoods and lives. They reduced incomes, educational opportunities, health outcomes, and cost lives. They also hurt the ability to respond to the pandemic -- two or three days ago NPR was talking about how the damage to the supply chain was forcing medical labs to source all kinds of alternate supplies, and how that was hurting their ability to respond to the coronavirus. (Though of course, being NPR, they blamed it on the virus, instead of on the economic shutdown.)

Yet people like Andrew Cuomo, who literally forced corona-positive patients on nursing homes and thus is single-handedly responsible for a vast number of deaths in NYC, are celebrated as heroes because they get up on stage and say "we can't put a value on human life" and use that to justify new lockdowns. Which is just compounding a deadly error with even more death, because they're ignoring the lives that will be lost and diminished due to the shutdowns.

The current estimate is each death lost to the coronavirus results in a loss of 11 or 13 years of life (men and women, respectively), so the 110K+ deaths works out to 1.3+ million years of life lost. One estimate suggest that more 700,000 life-years are being lost due to the economy shutdown, per month. Which is clearly not a good trade off, even if we assume the economic lockdowns had a major effect. Which is unlikely, because while it's still unclear how much of an effect the economic shutdowns had on the disease, the data is ambiguous. Even without considering the other ways a damaged economy hurts people, or how the infection fatality rate estimates have plummeted, that's a compelling argument for immediately and absolutely eliminating all the lockdowns.

But we don't need those relatively new assessments to recognize that public officials' completely one-sided attention to coronavirus deaths, and complete lack of attention to the economic costs, was criminal.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/03/27/how-economists-calculate-the-costs-and-benefits-of-covid-19-lockdowns
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/499394-the-covid-19-shutdown-will-cost-americans-millions-of-years-of-life
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on June 05, 2020, 07:03:15 PM
Quote from: Pat;1132687
Fuck you, you miserable piece of shit. Stop putting words in my mouth.

I explicitly said, in fact it was the whole first paragraph of that very post, that we have incomplete information, and that we don't yet have a good grasp on the disease. And I provided sources backing that up. That's 180 degrees away from claiming the answers are known. I've pointed out flaws in the data on both sides, including things like the death rate in Sweden -- which is lower than the European or world averages, but higher than in the other Scandinavian countries.

Fuck you too, Pat. You accuse people of fucking *genocide* if they don't agree with you, and then you act all wounded that I haven't been nice. Suck it up, snowflake. If you're going to accuse other people of genocide, then you should expect that you'll be called some names too.

Quote from: Pat;1132687
The current estimate is each death lost to the coronavirus results in a loss of 11 or 13 years of life (men and women, respectively), so the 110K+ deaths works out to 1.3+ million years of life lost. One estimate suggest that more 700,000 life-years are being lost due to the economy shutdown, per month. Which is clearly not a good trade off, even if we assume the economic lockdowns had a major effect. Which is unlikely, because while it's still unclear how much of an effect the economic shutdowns had on the disease, the data is ambiguous. Even without considering the other ways a damaged economy hurts people, or how the infection fatality rate estimates have plummeted, that's a compelling argument for immediately and absolutely eliminating all the lockdowns.

But we don't need those relatively new assessments to recognize that public officials' completely one-sided attention to coronavirus deaths, and complete lack of attention to the economic costs, was criminal.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/03/27/how-economists-calculate-the-costs-and-benefits-of-covid-19-lockdowns
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/499394-the-covid-19-shutdown-will-cost-americans-millions-of-years-of-life


The first link doesn't make any overall conclusion about the cost/benefit. And the second link is an *opinion* piece. The authors are qualified economists, but it's still an opinion by a few authors. Economists are not unified in condemning the lockdowns. For example, my sister is a Finance PhD who is a deputy director at the SEC, and she is divided on it as well.

All of this is based on the assertion about the 700,000 life-years per month that the shutdown is causing. But disagreeing with your asserted numbers isn't a crime - let alone *genocide*. I posted earlier about how economic recessions have previously lead to a *lower* mortality rate, not a higher one. Here's another article on that study - again, predating the coronavirus, and based on peer-reviewed studies.

https://www.businessinsider.com/study-recessions-unemployment-mortality-rates-2015-10?op=1
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on June 05, 2020, 07:39:59 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1132709
Fuck you too, Pat. You accuse people of fucking *genocide* if they don't agree with you, and then you act all wounded that I haven't been nice. Suck it up, snowflake. If you're going to accuse other people of genocide, then you should expect that you'll be called some names too.

I don't give a fuck whether you agree with me, this is about you putting words in my mouth. False words, which I never said. In fact, as I pointed out very clearly, it was exactly the opposite of what I said. That's what makes you a miserable piece of shit.

Being a genocide apologist also makes you a piece of shit, but I wasn't talking about that, because you hadn't made it clear that you support the unnecessary death of millions. But I'm sure Andrew Cuomo appreciates your support.

Quote from: jhkim;1132709
The first link doesn't make any overall conclusion about the cost/benefit. And the second link is an *opinion* piece. The authors are qualified economists, but it's still an opinion by a few authors. Economists are not unified in condemning the lockdowns. For example, my sister is a Finance PhD who is a deputy director at the SEC, and she is divided on it as well.

All of this is based on the assertion about the 700,000 life-years per month that the shutdown is causing. But disagreeing with your asserted numbers isn't a crime - let alone *genocide*. I posted earlier about how economic recessions have previously lead to a *lower* mortality rate, not a higher one. Here's another article on that study - again, predating the coronavirus, and based on peer-reviewed studies.

https://www.businessinsider.com/study-recessions-unemployment-mortality-rates-2015-10?op=1

More things I never said.

For instance, I didn't say anyone disagreeing with the numbers I posted is a crime. In fact, I stated multiple times, in both of my last two posts, that we don't have all the data. That there's a lot of ambiguity. And nowhere did I claim that either of the sources were definitive, or comprehensive. In fact, the only claim I stated with reasonable certainty was the average of 11 or 13 years of life lost, when someone dies of COVID-19. I used qualifying words for everything else, quite deliberately, because I do not consider them the final word. But they're what we have, and give us something we can assess and discuss.

This is the problem I have talking with you. You keep on putting words in my mouth. Words I never said, implied, or believe.

And as I pointed out when you brought up recession mortality rates earlier, almost everybody prefers boom times. If there's a lower mortality rate during economic downturns, what does that mean? It means people are voluntarily choosing to take on a certain degree of risk. Like the public did, when they pressured the federal government to remove the 55 mph speed limit. Like women do, when they decide to bring a child to term. Like we all do, when we cross the street.

Incidentally, a finance director isn't an economist.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on June 06, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
Here's a very interesting article.

https://www.justfacts.com/news_covid-19_anxiety_lockdowns_life_destroyed_saved
Quote
Based on a broad array of scientific data, Just Facts has computed that the anxiety created by reactions to Covid-19--such as stay-at-home orders, business shutdowns, media exaggerations, and legitimate concerns about the virus--will destroy at least seven times more years of human life than can possibly be saved by lockdowns to control the spread of the disease. This figure is a bare minimum, and the actual one is likely more than 90 times greater.
I'm not familiar with Just Facts, but the article lays out its reasoning in detail, is extensively backed by references to good sources, the conclusions were vetted by a psychiatrist, and they use the most conservative results (in favor of lockdowns) from a suite of studies. It's devastating, and even if there are some valid critiques, the structure and references are a great resource.

Note the article is more than a month old, so this information has been out there for a while.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on June 06, 2020, 05:50:43 PM
Quote from: Pat;1132811
Here's a very interesting article.

https://www.justfacts.com/news_covid-19_anxiety_lockdowns_life_destroyed_saved

I'm not familiar with Just Facts, but the article lays out its reasoning in detail, is extensively backed by references to good sources, the conclusions were vetted by a psychiatrist, and they use the most conservative results (in favor of lockdowns) from a suite of studies. It's devastating, and even if there are some valid critiques, the structure and references are a great resource.

Note the article is more than a month old, so this information has been out there for a while.

I wonder if the same people that point out that COVID-related deaths are mainly among those with comorbidities (e.g., hypertension, asthma, etc.) will be as quick to note that the deaths in this study are likewise tied to comorbidities (e.g., depression, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, and psychosis). For those that say that the deaths of those from COVID are just nature killing off the infirm, are the deaths from lockdown/isolation not merely another shade of the same thing?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on June 06, 2020, 09:04:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1132845
For those that say that the deaths of those from COVID are just nature killing off the infirm, are the deaths from lockdown/isolation not merely another shade of the same thing?

Good question!

The death data from mental illness would need to be matched vs. economic data. AKA, what's their death rate when employed vs. unemployed? What's their death rate when the national economy is booming vs. suffering recession?

I'm sure these numbers exist somewhere.

Here's a "Systemic Review of Suicide in Economic Recession" from 2015. The conclusion? "Economic recession periods appear to increase overall suicide rates, although further research is warranted in this area, particularly in low income countries."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473496/

A couple weeks ago, I had been interested in how the social media / MSM fearmongering would affect the overall mental health of the nation.

Our cities got the answer loud and clear regarding the short term effect. Now we must wait for the long term effect.


Quote from: DocJones;1132678
Target just announced early looting hours for seniors.

Reparations on aisle three.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on June 07, 2020, 10:31:32 PM
I thought this was fake or satire, but I was wrong.  
Open letter advocating for an anti-racist public health response to demonstrations against systemic
injustice occurring during the COVID-19 pandemic (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1b7K1A/view)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2020, 02:21:32 PM
Turns out now that racism is a much bigger health concern among many of the learned than covid.   I feel like I woke up in clown world when 2020 hit.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on June 09, 2020, 03:23:54 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1133302
Turns out now that racism is a much bigger health concern among many of the learned than covid.   I feel like I woke up in clown world when 2020 hit.

The Mayans were right and the world actually ended in 2012, we're just living in the parallel universe hellscape that followed.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on June 19, 2020, 06:47:14 AM
Cases in my area (central Florida) are on the rise again. Many are asymptomatic and are accounted for simply by having much easier access to testing. However, hospitalizations for COVID are rising again too. On the bright side, many of these are being caught early and do not (yet) require ICU. Treatment has also changed with better understanding, so ventilators are used less frequently. Healthcare "workplace" exposures have risen too, mainly r/t lax discipline on following precautions largely associated with fatigue (i.e., "tired" from maintaining precautions continuously for so long...these are not people you would want colonizing Mars).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on June 19, 2020, 02:39:48 PM
Coronasham is back? We're giving up on the riots already?

Our governor, Emperor Newscum of California, just released his royal edict demanding everyone to wear face diapers inside and outside because of the scary Corona monsters chasing everybody now the protesters got bored and went home. However...the responses to his tweeted command are pretty funny.

https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1273696999066353664
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on June 19, 2020, 04:17:02 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1133057
I thought this was fake or satire, but I was wrong.  
Open letter advocating for an anti-racist public health response to demonstrations against systemic
injustice occurring during the COVID-19 pandemic (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Jyfn4Wd2i6bRi12ePghMHtX3ys1b7K1A/view)

"COVID-19 among Black patients is yet another lethal manifestation of white supremacy."

I'm glad they published this letter because that's "1,288 public health professionals, infectious diseases professionals, and community stakeholders" I can avoid at all costs.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: oggsmash on June 19, 2020, 04:27:45 PM
Oh I do love the word stakeholder when someone is selling bullshit.  We have a (former) superintendent of our kids school system and he could not use the word enough in layering a bunch of nonsense around a very obvious attempt to dumb down the curriculum at every turn.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on June 19, 2020, 04:43:32 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1135151
Oh I do love the word stakeholder when someone is selling bullshit.  We have a (former) superintendent of our kids school system and he could not use the word enough in layering a bunch of nonsense around a very obvious attempt to dumb down the curriculum at every turn.

Adrienne Jones - African American

Literal fucking LOL. Like that is your ONLY fucking credential, that you were born black. My God, the US is doomed...
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on June 20, 2020, 04:14:14 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1132591
Even if someone does turn out to be right, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have questioned it!! What I find most exasperating about the covid-19 issue is how many people default to an answer based on their politics without questioning it -- and furthermore, anyone who holds a different view is clearly insane and/or brainwashed.

Covid-19 is a very new disease, and different studies have found significantly different infection fatality rates as well as other differing features. There has been little time for in-depth analysis, and the conditions vary a lot from country to country. I don't think that six months is sufficient for absolute knowledge of it. We're moving very quickly in studies -- but rushed studies tend to produce inconsistent results.

I'm not convinced that there is a single best approach to public health that works best for every community and country. Some countries have done better than others in terms of rates, but much of that is probably due to differing conditions - not because of the different government response.

Coronavirus isn't a "new" disease, it's a very familiar one which presents a variety of strains every year. Most of them aren't really all that troubling except to the sick, elderly and young. Since the whole "asymptomatic transmission" thing has turned out to be total bollocks, the only thing that's "novel" about this is that it's particularly deadly to the elderly, while being not that lethal for the young.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on June 20, 2020, 04:20:14 AM
Old people get sick and die. If any of us live long enough to get into our 80s, we're most likely going to bite the hoagie by illness or disease. Flu kills 36k average in the USA every year and the vast majority of those are geezers. Winter kills the old and the sick. Always has, always will.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: oggsmash on June 20, 2020, 11:52:27 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1135266
Old people get sick and die. If any of us live long enough to get into our 80s, we're most likely going to bite the hoagie by illness or disease. Flu kills 36k average in the USA every year and the vast majority of those are geezers. Winter kills the old and the sick. Always has, always will.

  Speak for yourself.  I always tell my wife if I hit 80 I am going to take up piloting helicopters or hunting bears (grizzy, polar or kodiak) with a hand gun.  I prefer to die wearing my boots and not in bedclothes.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on June 21, 2020, 07:45:34 PM
Quote from: Kiero;1135263
Since the whole "asymptomatic transmission" thing has turned out to be total bollocks

Where are you getting this from? The WHO have already backtracked on their "almost no asymptomatic spread" claim. What I've read implies we still don't know. Some studies say almost 0, others around 20%, and some as high as 40%. Which studies are you going with?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Snowman0147 on June 22, 2020, 01:14:10 PM
Don't trust the WHO at all.  That corrupt organization is bought and owned by China.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 01, 2020, 06:36:19 PM
In central Florida cases are rising pretty quickly and the numbers hospitalized are increasing too. There is again some talk of restricting elective procedures (which is murderous on healthcare finances) but beyond that, we are already seeing a lot of patients cancelling surgeries and appointments (pre-op, post-op, follow-up/recheck, and therapy). So we have the back and forth of health issue/economic issue playing at each other. What's really odd to me is that some of the progress that was made on increasing accessibility through telemedicine visits has lost ground when it should be on the rise. For too many people, if they can't do a live visit (currently because they choose not to) they'd rather just cancel than have a telehealth visit.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 01, 2020, 07:23:39 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/fatality-rate-plunges-as-cdc-director-says-covid-cases-likely-10x-higher/

Uh huh...
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 01, 2020, 07:38:44 PM
Quote from: Brad;1137466
https://www.dailywire.com/news/fatality-rate-plunges-as-cdc-director-says-covid-cases-likely-10x-higher/

Uh huh...

I'm not speculating on fatality rates; I'm mentioning the steadily increasing numbers that have been hospitalized over the last month. These are people experiencing significant (but not necessarily life-threatening) cases. For these people, COVID-19 is going to hit them in their health while also having a direct (i.e., the cost of hospitalization) and possibly indirect (i.e., lost wages) financial impact. Thankfully the number of cases requiring ICU and ventilators is not rising at the same rate.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 02, 2020, 12:14:42 AM
I'm looking forward to the Shutdown 2: Corona Boogaloo because it was a blast racing on the empty LA freeways and having the beaches and parks to ourselves. I wonder how many people are going to submit a second time. Judging from all the people diligently wearing face diapers, I expect its gonna be a Karenfest.

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 02, 2020, 09:28:14 AM
Fresh off getting poked by the gracious host (I deserved it; bad choice of words on my part elsethread), let's go for the gusto here!

Let's talk about Surgisphere, shall we?

The Lancet, to much ballyhoo and left-leaning media cheering, publishes a study showing, purportedly, that the 'cocktail' (hydroxylchloroquine + zinc and something else I can't remember) isn't effective against Covid-19. Much hooting and sneering from the peanut gallery, since U.S. President Trump had suggested it as a possible treatment.

Skip ahead a week or two, and people start asking -questions- about the Lancet study. Turns out their data comes from a org called 'Surgisphere', whose origins seem... kinda murky. Anyone familiar with climate change shenanigans is probably getting a funny sense of deja vu.

And then Surgisphere just ... vanishes, as though they'd been crafted for one role and were no longer needed, especially with people asking why their science advisor was a SF/F author. The Lancet retracts their study, but the damage is done.

So the question is, cui bono? Who profits? Certainly Trump's political enemies (which covers most of the left side of the spectrum). There's also been questions about money raised; a competing treatment, Remdesivir, would be far more expensive and lucrative than the HCQ cocktail.

So, who's up for signing onto that mission to colonize Mars? Cause I gotta tell you, clown world is losing its charm.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 02, 2020, 09:48:23 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1137468
I'm not speculating on fatality rates; I'm mentioning the steadily increasing numbers that have been hospitalized over the last month. These are people experiencing significant (but not necessarily life-threatening) cases. For these people, COVID-19 is going to hit them in their health while also having a direct (i.e., the cost of hospitalization) and possibly indirect (i.e., lost wages) financial impact. Thankfully the number of cases requiring ICU and ventilators is not rising at the same rate.

People get sick all the time and it impacts them financially; this bullshit is literally causing businesses to cease operations because if one person gets sick, EVERYONE has to stay home. A bunch of restaurants in town have open and closed multiple times because some PT worker tested positive. Some of them are now closed permanently. All for a fucking lie. I have seen videos of city council members saying they will ASSUME that if a person is positive, there must be at least 7 - 15 more cases due to the inevitable contact with others.

Anyone who thinks this is a real has been living under a rock or is literally retarded. Has there EVER been a "pandemic" in history where well people are told to stay home? How does that even make any sense? You quarantine sick people.

I'm so frustrated with this crap...also, no mask ever. Went to the grocery store yesterday, they had signs, walked right in and bought shit, no one said a single word to me. You can do it too.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 02, 2020, 11:13:35 AM
Quote from: Brad;1137540
Anyone who thinks this is a real has been living under a rock or is literally retarded. Has there EVER been a "pandemic" in history where well people are told to stay home? How does that even make any sense? You quarantine sick people.

It has a century since we've had a pandemic considered this bad, but quarantining the healthy was a well-documented measure in history. Many cities implemented similar restrictions for the Spanish Flu outbreaks of 1918. Earlier than that, it was done regularly. Cities used to take quite extreme measures, because plagues were far more deadly earlier in history. For example, below is a picture from Seattle during the 1918 plague.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4632[/ATTACH]

Quote
On Oct. 5, 1918, Seattle Mayor Ole Hanson made a stunning announcement.

He ordered "every place of indoor public assemblage in Seattle, including schools, theatres, motion picture houses, churches and dance halls closed by noon" that day, a Seattle Daily Times story said.

A memorable photo taken around that time shows a young man wearing what looks like a white surgical mask, standing in front of a downtown Seattle theater.

"All theatres CLOSED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE at request of Mayor," read a sign placed on the ticket booth.


cf. Also this National Geographic article on how different cities implemented social distancing in 1918, and how it affected the death tolls then.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 02, 2020, 11:53:11 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1137574
It has a century since we've had a pandemic considered this bad, but quarantining the healthy was a well-documented measure in history. Many cities implemented similar restrictions for the Spanish Flu outbreaks of 1918. Earlier than that, it was done regularly. Cities used to take quite extreme measures, because plagues were far more deadly earlier in history. For example, below is a picture from Seattle during the 1918 plague.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4632[/ATTACH]



cf. Also this National Geographic article on how different cities implemented social distancing in 1918, and how it affected the death tolls then.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/

Was waiting for this and it didn't take long...

Quote from: Brad;1137540
Anyone who thinks this is a real has been living under a rock or is literally retarded. Has there EVER been a "pandemic" in history where well people are told to stay home? How does that even make any sense? You quarantine sick people.

How does it make any sense? Because idiots who claim to be scientists say so?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: oggsmash on July 02, 2020, 05:21:03 PM
Is this a "serious" pandemic?  Isnt the average age of the person that it kills a few years older than the average age of death in the country?  It is not comparable to 1918, because that one killed young healthy people, didnt it?  This one does not.  

  At this point it just about does not matter, because the same motherfuckers screaming about killing grandma then urged people to show their support in protesting.   Sorry you can not have it both ways.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 02, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
You quarantine people who can spread sickness and disease. For many diseases you have to show symptoms before you become infectious. Covid-19 has an unusually long incubation period during which you are infectious but show no symptoms. And you can apparently catch the disease and be symptomless and still be infectious.  So for the quarantine to be effective you need to quarantine apparently healthy people. Does this make sense?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on July 02, 2020, 05:51:55 PM
Quote from: spon;1137647
You quarantine people who can spread sickness and disease. For many diseases you have to show symptoms before you become infectious. Covid-19 has an unusually long incubation period during which you are infectious but show no symptoms. And you can apparently catch the disease and be symptomless and still be infectious.  So for the quarantine to be effective you need to quarantine apparently healthy people. Does this make sense?


Makes sense...

asymptomatic carriers...

Oh Wait!  You mean just like the flu?  https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-practice/three-quarters-of-people-with-flu-have-no-symptoms/
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 02, 2020, 06:14:15 PM
Quote from: spon;1137647
You quarantine people who can spread sickness and disease. For many diseases you have to show symptoms before you become infectious. Covid-19 has an unusually long incubation period during which you are infectious but show no symptoms. And you can apparently catch the disease and be symptomless and still be infectious.  So for the quarantine to be effective you need to quarantine apparently healthy people. Does this make sense?

No, it doesn't. If I am "sick", but asymptomatic because I'm mid-40s and extremely healthy, and I spread it to other people who also get it, and maybe get a stuffy nose and have to miss work for a couple days, why should I have to be quarantined so a 90 year old grandma in a nursing home with colon cancer doesn't get sick and die from it, even though she'd have a higher chance of dying if she got the flu which is more deadly and ubiquitous?

So, no, it doesn't make any sense. It's total and utter horseshit. This disease is "just the flu", but not even as bad. Outside of literally a handful of cases, the only people dying are the elderly and sickly, and that is what we call life. Gotta die from something.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 02, 2020, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: Brad
Anyone who thinks this is a real has been living under a rock or is literally retarded. Has there EVER been a "pandemic" in history where well people are told to stay home? How does that even make any sense? You quarantine sick people.
Quote from: Brad;1137582
How does it make any sense? Because idiots who claim to be scientists say so?

You asked if there has ever been a pandemic where well people are told to stay home. I gave some information about social distancing efforts in history. Do you not believe me about the history? Or do you believe that these restrictions did happen in history, but you just don't care about the answer?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 02, 2020, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: Brad;1137651
No, it doesn't. If I am "sick", but asymptomatic because I'm mid-40s and extremely healthy, and I spread it to other people who also get it, and maybe get a stuffy nose and have to miss work for a couple days, why should I have to be quarantined so a 90 year old grandma in a nursing home with colon cancer doesn't get sick and die from it, even though she'd have a higher chance of dying if she got the flu which is more deadly and ubiquitous?

So, no, it doesn't make any sense. It's total and utter horseshit. This disease is "just the flu", but not even as bad. Outside of literally a handful of cases, the only people dying are the elderly and sickly, and that is what we call life. Gotta die from something.

Yet the flu isn't filling hospital beds at anything close to the same rate. Even if you don't care about the people infected, you can see the strain that the rising numbers of hospitalizations are having on hospitals and those that work there.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on July 03, 2020, 01:05:52 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1137671
Yet the flu isn't filling hospital beds at anything close to the same rate. Even if you don't care about the people infected, you can see the strain that the rising numbers of hospitalizations are having on hospitals and those that work there.

Are those hospital beds being filled by people who are being hospitalized because of Covid-19?

Or are they people finally getting their elective surgeries that just happen to test positive for the antibodies and are asymptomatic or only have mild symptoms and therefore not at risk?

I would like to see the break down on that if you can provide some links.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 03, 2020, 08:08:16 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1137708
Are those hospital beds being filled by people who are being hospitalized because of Covid-19?

Yes. The people in the ICUs are all on oxygen with the worst being intubated as they can't breathe on their own. Does that sound like "elective" surgeries to you? They have been cancelling elective surgeries so they have room in the ICUs for the COVID-19 patients.

Here's a link (for England, which is over the first peak).
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-declining-admissions-to-intensive-care-units/

If you look at the graph, you see that 90% of cases (at the peak) were on mechanical ventilators - which is now down to 30 (ish)%. America (apart from NY) is in the "approaching the peak" stage. So if things are the same for you as they were for us, 90% of your ICU patients will be on mechanical ventilators. Most of those are from COVID-19 symptoms, not elective surgeries. They have symptoms severe enough to put them onto mechanical respirators.  
It's that 90% peak that the shutdowns are trying to make as short as possible - and remember that the 90% peak may hide excess deaths. If you've run out of mechanical respirators, that's not good for any new cases that need them.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 03, 2020, 08:12:08 AM
Quote from: Brad;1137651

So, no, it doesn't make any sense. It's total and utter horseshit. This disease is "just the flu", but not even as bad. Outside of literally a handful of cases, the only people dying are the elderly and sickly, and that is what we call life. Gotta die from something.

That's ok Brad, I'd love to live in your world where we haven't had all those excess deaths who just happen to test positive for Coronavirus (those who get tested, anyway).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending19june2020

Hope you don't have any aging relatives that you'll be coming into close contact with. They're the ones you are putting in danger. Stay safe.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 03, 2020, 09:02:30 AM
Quote from: spon;1137720
That's ok Brad, I'd love to live in your world where we haven't had all those excess deaths who just happen to test positive for Coronavirus (those who get tested, anyway).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending19june2020

Hope you don't have any aging relatives that you'll be coming into close contact with. They're the ones you are putting in danger. Stay safe.

Not a problem in New York. Governor Cuomo ordered them to all be housed together so they'd die off and not be a burden.

Why, yes, I am accusing Cuomo the Lame-o of deliberately boosting the deaths in his state for stupid political points.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on July 03, 2020, 09:39:01 AM
Quote from: spon;1137719
Yes. The people in the ICUs are all on oxygen with the worst being intubated as they can't breathe on their own. Does that sound like "elective" surgeries to you? They have been cancelling elective surgeries so they have room in the ICUs for the COVID-19 patients.

Here's a link (for England, which is over the first peak).
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-declining-admissions-to-intensive-care-units/

If you look at the graph, you see that 90% of cases (at the peak) were on mechanical ventilators - which is now down to 30 (ish)%. America (apart from NY) is in the "approaching the peak" stage. So if things are the same for you as they were for us, 90% of your ICU patients will be on mechanical ventilators. Most of those are from COVID-19 symptoms, not elective surgeries. They have symptoms severe enough to put them onto mechanical respirators.  
It's that 90% peak that the shutdowns are trying to make as short as possible - and remember that the 90% peak may hide excess deaths. If you've run out of mechanical respirators, that's not good for any new cases that need them.


I wasn't really asking about the UK...I was just curious why the death 'rate' in the US is a decreasing slope if the 'cases and hospitalizations' are 'spiking'?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 03, 2020, 11:02:24 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1137708
Are those hospital beds being filled by people who are being hospitalized because of Covid-19?

Or are they people finally getting their elective surgeries that just happen to test positive for the antibodies and are asymptomatic or only have mild symptoms and therefore not at risk?

I would like to see the break down on that if you can provide some links.

I can't provide links--some of the information I have is internal to my organization--but these (200+ in the last two weeks) are patients hospitalized for acute respiratory conditions linked to positive tests for COVID-19. Asymptomatic people don't get hospitalized regardless of whether they test positive or not. Patients being registered for surgery get tested for COVID-19 and, if they test positive, it is at the provider's discretion whether to go ahead with the surgery (guaranteed for emergent, life-saving measures) or to delay it until they retest with negative results (guaranteed for fully elective procedures). Surgeries that improve quality of life but are not emergent have some wiggle room.

Quote from: spon;1137719
Yes. The people in the ICUs are all on oxygen with the worst being intubated as they can't breathe on their own. Does that sound like "elective" surgeries to you? They have been cancelling elective surgeries so they have room in the ICUs for the COVID-19 patients.

Here's a link (for England, which is over the first peak).
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-declining-admissions-to-intensive-care-units/

If you look at the graph, you see that 90% of cases (at the peak) were on mechanical ventilators - which is now down to 30 (ish)%. America (apart from NY) is in the "approaching the peak" stage. So if things are the same for you as they were for us, 90% of your ICU patients will be on mechanical ventilators. Most of those are from COVID-19 symptoms, not elective surgeries. They have symptoms severe enough to put them onto mechanical respirators.  
It's that 90% peak that the shutdowns are trying to make as short as possible - and remember that the 90% peak may hide excess deaths. If you've run out of mechanical respirators, that's not good for any new cases that need them.

A benefit of more widespread testing has been early detection. This means that, while infected numbers are rising very quickly, and hospital admissions for acute symptoms are on the rise too, the proportion of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 needing ventilators is decreasing. This is a good thing.

Quote from: moonsweeper;1137737
I wasn't really asking about the UK...I was just curious why the death 'rate' in the US is a decreasing slope if the 'cases and hospitalizations' are 'spiking'?

Early detection & treatment is the answer. More are being treated before they might require ICU level treatment and ventilators. This is why there is still a need to flatten the curve so that acute cases (not all infections) stay within the capabilities of healthcare resources.

This is where Brad is technically correct--no matter what, some will die of COVID-19 (and yes, all will eventually die of something)--but it is also where Brad is a dick for suggesting that efforts should not be taken to minimize that number by preventing unnecessary deaths from COVID-19.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 03, 2020, 12:43:43 PM
Welp just gonna leave this here. https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study (https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 04, 2020, 05:50:00 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1137737
I wasn't really asking about the UK...I was just curious why the death 'rate' in the US is a decreasing slope if the 'cases and hospitalizations' are 'spiking'?

Assuming the virus is the same in the US as the UK, the reasoning is sound. I believe the death rate going down is because you are detecting a lot more of the mild/asymptomatic cases that were being missed because testing was less widespread. Which might be a glimmer of hope for us - if the virus is actually a lot more widespread than we believe (i.e. almost all cases are asymptomatic), we might be able to get to a situation of herd immunity much quicker and concentrate on helping the vulnerable whilst reopening the economy for everyone else.

Unfortunately, that doesn't look like it's the case, and even if it were we don't have any guarantee that our immunity lasts long enough to help.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 04, 2020, 05:21:15 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1137658
You asked if there has ever been a pandemic where well people are told to stay home. I gave some information about social distancing efforts in history. Do you not believe me about the history? Or do you believe that these restrictions did happen in history, but you just don't care about the answer?

I believe you're conflating a specific example with an overarching, national campaign to keep people home. Or do you want to show me evidence the entirety of the US was locked down in the past?

Quote from: spon;1137720
That's ok Brad, I'd love to live in your world where we haven't had all those excess deaths who just happen to test positive for Coronavirus (those who get tested, anyway).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending19june2020

Hope you don't have any aging relatives that you'll be coming into close contact with. They're the ones you are putting in danger. Stay safe.

The old "what about grandma" argument. Yeah well, fuck grandma. She needs to stay home and avoid getting sent to a nursing home with old people who tested positive. What's that, you say? We're sending sick people to nursing homes and deaths are spiking?

GTFO with this fear mongering bullshit.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 04, 2020, 09:28:53 PM
Quote from: Brad;1137936
GTFO with this fear mongering bullshit.


Fear mongering bullshit is all they have left.

The scamdemic looks dumber everyday. The death rate is a joke, the victims are almost entirely people with one foot in the grave, and less and less people are buying the "oh noes cases be rising" when its obviously from the frantic pace of testing (to max out healthcare dollars).

We're nearly at the tipping point of even the densest people figuring out the scam. The goalposts keep moving from "flatten the curve" to "stop the spread" to "riots don't spread KungFlu" to our current "wear a face diaper to protect others!" Who knows what next week's CoronaChan lie might be?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: yancy on July 05, 2020, 05:18:14 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1137962
The goalposts keep moving from "flatten the curve" to "stop the spread" to "riots don't spread KungFlu" to our current "wear a face diaper to protect others!" Who knows what next week's CoronaChan lie might be?

That last bullshit was mandated here a week or two ago, by our dipshit mayor, because this time the governor didn't have the will to fight :(

So far I've grudgingly put a handkerchief on my face when I'm yelled at (which happens in about of half of businesses here), but I'm thinking I'll buy some kinda pro-Trump 'covid mask' so every time someone insists I wear a mask, their happy face over forcing me to express support for Antifa and BLM turns into a frowny face over forcing me to express support for killing the children of unauthorized citizens, or whatever the hell it is Trump is guilty of today.

I've kind of wondered lately, if masks are such a goddamn important and effective public health measure that it's necessary to pass laws mandating wearing them, why it is there aren't obvious signs of them being handed out like sanitary IV drug use kits and meth smoking packages are, not even to low income individuals. Because I've seen little to no (read:no) evidence of any such initiative, and neither has anyone I've spoken to, including friends living in places like, oh, I don't know, Brooklyn.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on July 05, 2020, 10:24:54 AM
I don't see the abject cowardly fear about wearing a mask. If it helps with keeping COV-19 figures down then why not wear a mask.

Problem like my neck and the woods and yours is that no one even really attempted any basic quarantine procedures. No social distancing and essentially hugging, kissing and shaking hands at every opportunity at every event. With no mandates in place beyond expecting people to do the right thing. Except unless forced to do so people are not going to do the right thing no matter what is a stake. If officials in Canada and the US had been more strict we would have probably been less impacted by the virus.

Everyone thinks they are immortal and immune to viruses up until they catch them and officials instead of doing the right thing worry about votes and hurting voters feelings and when both do something it's either too late or they are forced to do so. I am surprised that they are not giving out free masks at the very least across the USA. Or making it cheaper to buy them. At least for the moment you all lucked out on fines as the starting fee could go as high as 1000$ with 546$ added in before they relaxed quarantine procedures .

At the same time they should do what we do here when it comes to does not wanting to do any basic quarantine procedures or who refuse to take it seriously when visiting a dentist or someone similar. No mask and don't believe in the virus fine, sign this form that say we are not responsible for you getting the virus and you acknowledge any and all risks while not making us liable for anything. No you won't sign the form or wear a mask go see another service provider bye bye. What you think your going to go to the dentist with no protection and get sick then sue yeah good luck with that.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 05, 2020, 11:05:58 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1138036
I don't see the abject cowardly fear about wearing a mask. If it helps with keeping COV-19 figures down then why not wear a mask.

Problem like my neck and the woods and yours is that no one even really attempted any basic quarantine procedures. No social distancing and essentially hugging, kissing and shaking hands at every opportunity at every event. With no mandates in place beyond expecting people to do the right thing. Except unless forced to do so people are not going to do the right thing no matter what is a stake. If officials in Canada and the US had been more strict we would have probably been less impacted by the virus.

Everyone thinks they are immortal and immune to viruses up until they catch them and officials instead of doing the right thing worry about votes and hurting voters feelings and when both do something it's either too late or they are forced to do so. I am surprised that they are not giving out free masks at the very least across the USA. Or making it cheaper to buy them. At least for the moment you all lucked out on fines as the starting fee could go as high as 1000$ with 546$ added in before they relaxed quarantine procedures .

At the same time they should do what we do here when it comes to does not wanting to do any basic quarantine procedures or who refuse to take it seriously when visiting a dentist or someone similar. No mask and don't believe in the virus fine, sign this form that say we are not responsible for you getting the virus and you acknowledge any and all risks while not making us liable for anything. No you won't sign the form or wear a mask go see another service provider bye bye. What you think your going to go to the dentist with no protection and get sick then sue yeah good luck with that.

Slight clarification: the mask a person wears is not for their own protection; it is to protect others from them. When I wear a mask it is to keep anything I exhale from traveling as far as it would if I was barefaced--it doesn't stop things as small as a virus, but it does impede their spread by muffling the force of exhalation. These masks cut down on transmission so long as everyone is wearing them (i.e., my protection comes from others wearing their masks). In contrast, a respirator (which may look like a mask but works differently) and faceshields/goggles are intended to protect the one wearing them.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on July 05, 2020, 06:41:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1138042
Slight clarification: the mask a person wears is not for their own protection; it is to protect others from them. When I wear a mask it is to keep anything I exhale from traveling as far as it would if I was barefaced--it doesn't stop things as small as a virus, but it does impede their spread by muffling the force of exhalation. These masks cut down on transmission so long as everyone is wearing them (i.e., my protection comes from others wearing their masks). In contrast, a respirator (which may look like a mask but works differently) and faceshields/goggles are intended to protect the one wearing them.

A mask must have some protective effect, otherwise all of those doctors and nurses wearing masks are either trying to protect their patients from being infected by the nurse or providing the nurse with a placebo so they dont think too much about how their patients are infecting them.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 05, 2020, 06:48:00 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1138097
A mask must have some protective effect, otherwise all of those doctors and nurses wearing masks are either trying to protect their patients from being infected by the nurse or providing the nurse with a placebo so they dont think too much about how their patients are infecting them.

When wearing masks (not respirators) it really is intended to protect the patient from the HCP (this is the function of surgical/procedural masks). Of course, patients are also required to wear masks within healthcare facilities too, and this is intended to protect the HCPs and other patients too. In cases where there is a known COVID-19 positive patient, HCPs will be wearing respirators and protective eyewear (this is also done with all patients undergoing aerosol-generating procedures).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on July 05, 2020, 07:14:42 PM
Free abortions are essential but motherfucker you better pony up $1 to buy a fucking face mask!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 05, 2020, 07:57:42 PM
Quote from: Brad
Anyone who thinks this is a real has been living under a rock or is literally retarded. Has there EVER been a "pandemic" in history where well people are told to stay home? How does that even make any sense? You quarantine sick people.
(...)
Quote from: jhkim
You asked if there has ever been a pandemic where well people are told to stay home. I gave some information about social distancing efforts in history. Do you not believe me about the history? Or do you believe that these restrictions did happen in history, but you just don't care about the answer?
Quote from: Brad;1137936
I believe you're conflating a specific example with an overarching, national campaign to keep people home. Or do you want to show me evidence the entirety of the US was locked down in the past?
Your previous statement had nothing to do with city campaigns versus national campaigns. You asked whether historically there were campaigns like this in history, and I showed that there were.

A hundred years ago, international travel was slower and less common, which limited the speed with which diseases spread. Covid-19 has spread far faster than the 1918 flu epidemic, but our ability to deal with it has also changed. Our medicine and standards have improved a lot since 1918. So yes, there are differences in the campaign today compared to the past. In the U.S., we have organized on a state level rather than a city level to handle social distancing measures.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 06, 2020, 11:14:32 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1138112
(...)


Your previous statement had nothing to do with city campaigns versus national campaigns. You asked whether historically there were campaigns like this in history, and I showed that there were.

A hundred years ago, international travel was slower and less common, which limited the speed with which diseases spread. Covid-19 has spread far faster than the 1918 flu epidemic, but our ability to deal with it has also changed. Our medicine and standards have improved a lot since 1918. So yes, there are differences in the campaign today compared to the past. In the U.S., we have organized on a state level rather than a city level to handle social distancing measures.

Okay, so there are historic examples where people were told to stay home in some cities. Does that magically make the practice valid? Or is it brain-dead stupid?

RE: social distancing, explain how the virus is magically immune if you're rioting, but if you go to a bar you'll catch it. You can get it at Walmart if you're not wearing a facemask, but not at a waterpark without a facemask. You can go to a restaurant if you wear a mask, but you're allowed to take it off to eat, but if you go to the bathroom you better put it back on quick before it somehow invades your body. Also, don't forget that if you dare question the government about arbitrarily shutting down your business while simultaneously allowing the government itself to operate at maximum capacity you'll be fined $250. Oh and also you don't need a mask to vote, for some reason. But it's mandatory when getting a haircut!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 06, 2020, 01:54:24 PM
Quote from: Brad;1138189
Okay, so there are historic examples where people were told to stay home in some cities. Does that magically make the practice valid? Or is it brain-dead stupid?
Some historical practices were smart, and some were dumb. To find out effectiveness, we should look at studies on how diseases spread in cities historically -- which is what epidemiologists do. I linked earlier to a National Geographic article about the death rates in different cities compared to their social distancing.

Quote from: jhkim;1137574
cf. Also this National Geographic article on how different cities implemented social distancing in 1918, and how it affected the death tolls then.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/

There can be differing views on this -- this is just one analysis. But it's at least looking at the history and trying to learn from it.

Quote from: Brad;1138189
RE: social distancing, explain how the virus is magically immune if you're rioting, but if you go to a bar you'll catch it. You can get it at Walmart if you're not wearing a facemask, but not at a waterpark without a facemask. You can go to a restaurant if you wear a mask, but you're allowed to take it off to eat, but if you go to the bathroom you better put it back on quick before it somehow invades your body. Also, don't forget that if you dare question the government about arbitrarily shutting down your business while simultaneously allowing the government itself to operate at maximum capacity you'll be fined $250. Oh and also you don't need a mask to vote, for some reason. But it's mandatory when getting a haircut!

These strike me as questions in bad faith. Masks are just one of many possible safeguards, but they're useful and effective. They don't protect the wearer much - rather, they're mostly for protecting other people from you. If you're infected and don't realize it, a mask will limit how much you spread around the infection.

For example, protesters should wear masks and maintain distance, and not doing so increases the risk that they pass on infection. And sure, many liberals have shown bias in how they talk about conservative protests compared to liberal protests. Just like how conservatives show bias in how they talk about protests.

But political bias doesn't mean that no objective reality exists, or that the whole disease is a hoax.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 06, 2020, 02:22:52 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1138216
These strike me as questions in bad faith.

That is LITERALLY what the orders state. I am not making this shit up. It looks and sounds retarded because it is. I couldn't make up crap this ridiculous if I tried. The only "bad faith" is people who continue to blindly accept what some fakeass scientists making millions of dollars off this scandemic says and ignore common sense.

I'll spell it out for you so you can easily understand: THIS IS A FUCKING HOAX.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/no-one-has-died-coronavirus/5717668

You gonna deny that those masks everyone is wearing do not reduce the risk of contracting a disease? Oh, it's a disclaimer on the fucking box itself.

(https://i.imgur.com/urB7VSX.png)

How about the fact that the CDC itself says the number of cases is probably 10X what is being reported, which means mortality rate is waaaaaay lower than previously claimed?

Whatever, done responding to you about this. Live in fear and cower, IDGAF.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 06, 2020, 02:40:34 PM
Quote from: Brad;1138221
That is LITERALLY what the orders state. I am not making this shit up. It looks and sounds retarded because it is. I couldn't make up crap this ridiculous if I tried. The only "bad faith" is people who continue to blindly accept what some fakeass scientists making millions of dollars off this scandemic says and ignore common sense.

I'll spell it out for you so you can easily understand: THIS IS A FUCKING HOAX.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/no-one-has-died-coronavirus/5717668

You gonna deny that those masks everyone is wearing do not reduce the risk of contracting a disease? Oh, it's a disclaimer on the fucking box itself.

(https://i.imgur.com/urB7VSX.png)

How about the fact that the CDC itself says the number of cases is probably 10X what is being reported, which means mortality rate is waaaaaay lower than previously claimed?

Whatever, done responding to you about this. Live in fear and cower, IDGAF.

Those are the same masks your dentist uses when examining your teeth, it's for your protection, so the dentists doesn't pass something to you.

The principle is the same, in case you've got the kungflu and don't know it yet you don't pass the Chinese virus as easy to others. Doesn't protect the wearer but those around him.

Which makes sense in closed spaces or crowded streets, not when you're far from other humans.

As for the true danger of the kungflu... I do believe that IF we ever are allowed to know the total numbers it will be proven to be a nothingburger.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 06, 2020, 02:46:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1138232
Those are the same masks your dentist uses when examining your teeth, it's for your protection, so the dentists doesn't pass something to you.

The principle is the same, in case you've got the kungflu and don't know it yet you don't pass the Chinese virus as easy to others. Doesn't protect the wearer but those around him.

Which makes sense in closed spaces or crowded streets, not when you're far from other humans.

As for the true danger of the kungflu... I do believe that IF we ever are allowed to know the total numbers it will be proven to be a nothingburger.

So then why aren't they required when standing in line to get on a tube chute but bars are closed..?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on July 06, 2020, 04:41:36 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1137537
The Lancet, to much ballyhoo and left-leaning media cheering, publishes a study showing, purportedly, that the 'cocktail' (hydroxylchloroquine + zinc and something else I can't remember) isn't effective against Covid-19. Much hooting and sneering from the peanut gallery, since U.S. President Trump had suggested it as a possible treatment.

The Lancet "study" where they gave already gravely ill people lethal doses of hydroxylchloroquine to "prove" it didn't work, you mean?

Quote from: jhkim;1137574
It has a century since we've had a pandemic considered this bad,

This isn't even as bad as the 1968 flu, never mind 1918.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1138232
The principle is the same, in case you've got the kungflu and don't know it yet you don't pass the Chinese virus as easy to others. Doesn't protect the wearer but those around him.

Asymptomatic transmission is bollocks. People know they're ill when they're ill.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 06, 2020, 05:46:41 PM
Quote from: Kiero;1138247
Asymptomatic transmission is bollocks. People know they're ill when they're ill.

I disagree.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 06, 2020, 09:30:55 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1138232
As for the true danger of the kungflu... I do believe that IF we ever are allowed to know the total numbers it will be proven to be a nothingburger.

The half-assed numbers we already have prove its all bullshit fearmongering over the sniffles.

But this is just an exercise in mass submission.

Will you stay home when we tell you?
Will you let us close your church?
Will you let us destroy your jobs?
Will you let us trample your rights and the Constitution?
Will you wear a face diaper?
Will you let us inject you with a "fast tracked" vaccine?
Will you keep believing the media even though we keep changing the storyline?
Will you attack and threaten friends, family and neighbors who disobey?
Will you live in constant fear?

And the answer by the majority of Americans has been YES.

My response has been, continues to be, and will always be NO followed swiftly by FUCK OFF.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: yancy on July 07, 2020, 07:06:52 AM
I still haven't been able to find a free face mask. I'd prefer one with proven efficacy to protect me (and others) from Covid-19, but I'm very low income and I don't know if I can afford even some shitty thing I could buy on etsy, and I wouldn't trust those if I paid for 'em.

Where do I get these things? I don't wanna kill grandma :(

I love grandma :)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 07, 2020, 09:26:05 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1138250
I disagree.

So does the ONS

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53320155
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on July 09, 2020, 04:17:21 AM
Quote from: spon;1138305
So does the ONS

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53320155

Crappy small sample:

Quote
While the ONS survey includes relatively small numbers of positive swab tests (120 infections in all) making it hard to make any strong conclusions about who is most likely to be infected

Reported on the biased BBC. Colour me utterly unimpressed.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 09, 2020, 08:05:38 AM
Had someone claiming the other night that if you test 100 people and get six positives, and then test 1000 people and get 70 positives, the latter is way worse.

I was like 'wait, percentages wise isn't that the same, with maybe a 1 percent increase?'.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 09, 2020, 11:33:17 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1138626
Crappy small sample:



Reported on the biased BBC. Colour me utterly unimpressed.

The CDC has been proven demonstrably wrong for the past three months, but I'm supposed to just take whatever they say NOW at face value. Because, you know, it's a government agency full of expert scientists who have no political agenda. Even though the dude running it is gonna make millions off a charlatan vaccine.

So, yeah, never believing anything any government agency says again.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1138635
Had someone claiming the other night that if you test 100 people and get six positives, and then test 1000 people and get 70 positives, the latter is way worse.

I was like 'wait, percentages wise isn't that the same, with maybe a 1 percent increase?'.

Well it IS worse, as that's ~17% increase! DOOM AND GLOOM! See, I can write for the newspaper.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 09, 2020, 04:55:56 PM
Quote from: Brad;1138650
So, yeah, never believing anything any government agency says again.

Brad, can you give examples of what sources you might consider to be credible (and, for the bonus question, add in "why")? Statements like the one you made make you sound like a conspiracy theory nutter, and I have to hope it's just an act.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 09, 2020, 05:02:36 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1138715
Brad, can you give examples of what sources you might consider to be credible (and, for the bonus question, add in "why")? Statements like the one you made make you sound like a conspiracy theory nutter, and I have to hope it's just an act.

CT nutter because I don't believe the government..?

Surely you're joking.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1138715
Brad, can you give examples of what sources you might consider to be credible (and, for the bonus question, add in "why")? Statements like the one you made make you sound like a conspiracy theory nutter, and I have to hope it's just an act.

  What is the conspiracy in government agencies can have an agenda that maybe does not line up with the best interests of all the citizens under said government, and acting on that agencies may "massage" numbers.    I can not say what government agencies are beyond reproach, but there are a few (ATF, FBI, IRS, for just a few) that have had some actions and behaviors exposed the past decades that can erode some trust in government institutions.  Maybe you should tell him which ones are trust worthy?  The problem I have with most government agencies, they tend to end up staffed top to bottom with some level of bureaucrat after enough time, and bureaucrats do not always advance or stay in position due to their level of competence or stark honesty.  I can even put forward that many rise to the level of their incompetence and then stay there by making sure to "play ball".  I am not so sure it is conspiratorial to expect some government institutions to be staffed with toadies.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 09, 2020, 05:38:10 PM
Quote from: Brad;1138718
CT nutter because I don't believe the government..?

Surely you're joking.

I don't see any value in automatically disbelieving anything that comes from a government affiliated source. Sure, be skeptical and verify, but do that with everything. The government isn't stuck on lying 100% of the time, and sometimes they really do have valuable information to share.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 09, 2020, 05:44:00 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1138719
Maybe you should tell him which ones are trust worthy?

I don't have a list. I tend to look at multiple sources on a story and see where they align and where they diverge to get a generally accepted middle version and then I accept that some details will likely never be clear to anyone (not even eyewitnesses). I'm OK with that because I don't feel the need to feel like I know everything. When I do speak about something, I try to stick to areas where I have firsthand knowledge and I share it for those that want to consider it when forming their picture of events.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 09, 2020, 05:52:35 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1138730
I don't see any value in automatically disbelieving anything that comes from a government affiliated source. Sure, be skeptical and verify, but do that with everything. The government isn't stuck on lying 100% of the time, and sometimes they really do have valuable information to share.

Sure, I'll grant that...maybe it's closer to 99.5% of the time.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on July 09, 2020, 05:55:34 PM
Quote from: Brad;1138718
CT nutter because I don't believe the government..?

Surely you're joking.

Given their track record:

Dont wear masks they dont do anything to You must wear masks.

Dont go outside or you will kill Grandma to Go outside, pack together as tight as possible for mostly peaceful protests or you will kill Gandma

Why would you not believe whatever the Government is currently saying?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: oggsmash on July 09, 2020, 09:29:00 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1138733
I don't have a list. I tend to look at multiple sources on a story and see where they align and where they diverge to get a generally accepted middle version and then I accept that some details will likely never be clear to anyone (not even eyewitnesses). I'm OK with that because I don't feel the need to feel like I know everything. When I do speak about something, I try to stick to areas where I have firsthand knowledge and I share it for those that want to consider it when forming their picture of events.

  This is fair, but if this is necessary to verify government agency information.....it does not speak of what I like to think of high trust in institutions.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: rgalex on July 14, 2020, 07:31:36 AM
Ohio instituted some 4 level health alert scale and at level 3 masks become mandatory everywhere, inside, outside, etc.  The county I'm living in just got upgraded to level 3 last week when we reached the magical threshold of danger.

I'm guessing not enough people were going along with mandate because now they set up a hotline you can call to snitch on people who aren't wearing masks.  It's kinda funny because during the announcement of the hotline the County Executive said "We want people to wear their masks - we want people to do it voluntarily."

He has since then also pointed out that violating the governor's order is a 2nd degree misdemeanor, punishable by up to 90 days in jail and a $750 fine.  Sooooo... not so much on the voluntarily part then, is it.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 14, 2020, 09:03:37 AM
Quote from: rgalex;1139691
Ohio instituted some 4 level health alert scale and at level 3 masks become mandatory everywhere, inside, outside, etc.  The county I'm living in just got upgraded to level 3 last week when we reached the magical threshold of danger.

I'm guessing not enough people were going along with mandate because now they set up a hotline you can call to snitch on people who aren't wearing masks.  It's kinda funny because during the announcement of the hotline the County Executive said "We want people to wear their masks - we want people to do it voluntarily."

He has since then also pointed out that violating the governor's order is a 2nd degree misdemeanor, punishable by up to 90 days in jail and a $750 fine.  Sooooo... not so much on the voluntarily part then, is it.

What's the number? 'Cause back when NYC tried to institute a snitch hotline it didn't go well AT ALL.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: rgalex on July 14, 2020, 09:46:47 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1139711
What's the number? 'Cause back when NYC tried to institute a snitch hotline it didn't go well AT ALL.


Let's see... here we go:

Quote
Individuals who see others failing to abide by the mask requirement should call in complaints to the county's new hotline at 216-698-5050, or file complaints online at cuyahogacounty.us/maskexperience.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 14, 2020, 11:41:57 AM
Quote from: rgalex;1139716
Let's see... here we go:

BRB, gotta go buy a burner phone. :D :D :D
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: rgalex on July 14, 2020, 12:23:29 PM
It's about 50/50 with places around me giving a shit if I wear a mask or not.  The main grocery store I use asked me if I wanted one as I walked in and I said no thanks and they didn't say anything more.  The Subway by work, a CVS and most gas stations in the area told me I couldn't come in so I left.  There are a few diners that didn't care.

I have noticed that a lot of people are now wearing them.  More than at any point before now.  At the grocery store I'd hazard to guess that I was 1 of maybe 5 people I saw in there without one on.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 14, 2020, 01:50:13 PM
Quote from: rgalex;1139716
Let's see... here we go:


So like the Gestapo, Stasi, NKVD etc? Snitch on your family/friends/coworkers/neighbors to get browny points with the dictator?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on July 14, 2020, 02:05:50 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1139762
So like the Gestapo, Stasi, NKVD etc? Snitch on your family/friends/coworkers/neighbors to get browny points with the dictator?

Well, it has worked for them before...



Interesting article I read a while back, forgot to post it here.

From the former Director of the Institute for Immunology at the University of Bern

https://medium.com/@vernunftundrichtigkeit/coronavirus-why-everyone-was-wrong-fce6db5ba809 (https://medium.com/@vernunftundrichtigkeit/coronavirus-why-everyone-was-wrong-fce6db5ba809)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on July 14, 2020, 02:39:25 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1139770
Well, it has worked for them before...



Interesting article I read a while back, forgot to post it here.

From the former Director of the Institute for Immunology at the University of Bern

https://medium.com/@vernunftundrichtigkeit/coronavirus-why-everyone-was-wrong-fce6db5ba809 (https://medium.com/@vernunftundrichtigkeit/coronavirus-why-everyone-was-wrong-fce6db5ba809)

Yeah I saw that. It gave me some hope, but it also seems like the recent numbers so far aren't bearing it out, at least in the USA. On the other hand, I've *also* seen evidence of -- how to put this neutrally -- data quality issues with contaminated tests and biased surveys that, if true, would weaken the integrity of the counterpoint. One thing is for sure, the politics around COVID are not improving the fog of war in dealing with the pandemic.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on July 14, 2020, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1139780
Yeah I saw that. It gave me some hope, but it also seems like the recent numbers so far aren't bearing it out, at least in the USA. On the other hand, I've *also* seen evidence of -- how to put this neutrally -- data quality issues with contaminated tests and biased surveys that, if true, would weaken the integrity of the counterpoint. One thing is for sure, the politics around COVID are not improving the fog of war in dealing with the pandemic.

Yeah, I saw some stuff out of Florida where the test samples were showing 98+% positive....not to mention they don't seem to be telling you whether the testing is for active, just antibodies, etc.

Notice that the media seems to be talking number of cases but doesn't really talk about the number of deaths anymore...
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on July 14, 2020, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1139783
Yeah, I saw some stuff out of Florida where the test samples were showing 98+% positive....not to mention they don't seem to be telling you whether the testing is for active, just antibodies, etc.

Notice that the media seems to be talking number of cases but doesn't really talk about the number of deaths anymore...

Yeah. I was all set to celebrate the death rate being not so bad as feared until I saw the stuff coming out about neurological entanglements and damage. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/covid-19-linked-to-major-neurological-conditions-including-stroke-brain-swelling

There ultimately may be nothing we can do except hunker down, monitor blood oxygen carefully, and deal with whatever the neurological impacts turn out to be. But if there's a high rate of brain damage associated with the disease I don't think its safe to call off precautionary measures yet.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 14, 2020, 03:27:34 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1139762
So like the Gestapo, Stasi, NKVD etc? Snitch on your family/friends/coworkers/neighbors to get browny points with the dictator?

Yup.

But the good news is that such snitch hotlines tend to get targeted and messed up. New York City had one and it collapsed because people were sending it dick pics and stories about how they saw Mayor deBlasio in an Olive Garden parking lot giving blowjobs.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 14, 2020, 04:09:36 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1139783
Yeah, I saw some stuff out of Florida where the test samples were showing 98+% positive....not to mention they don't seem to be telling you whether the testing is for active, just antibodies, etc.

Notice that the media seems to be talking number of cases but doesn't really talk about the number of deaths anymore...


Well, here (https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-sets-single-day-record-for-coronavirus-deaths-with-132-adds-9100-new-cases/2261956/) is an example from Florida where they talk about deaths.

The same article also says, "In another worrisome development, the percent of tests coming back positive increased to 18.31% for all tests reported Tuesday and 15.02% for people who tested positive for the first time."

Do you have a source for your claim of "I saw some stuff out of Florida where the test samples were showing 98+% positive" that you can share? I find that highly suspect.

Anecdotally, my system (again, in Florida) is up to > 360 patients hospitalized d/t COVID19, and > 30 of them are in ICUs (I do not know how many are on ventilators). These numbers are FAR higher than what we had in April & May.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on July 15, 2020, 12:16:23 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1139799
Well, here (https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-sets-single-day-record-for-coronavirus-deaths-with-132-adds-9100-new-cases/2261956/) is an example from Florida where they talk about deaths.

The same article also says, "In another worrisome development, the percent of tests coming back positive increased to 18.31% for all tests reported Tuesday and 15.02% for people who tested positive for the first time."

Do you have a source for your claim of "I saw some stuff out of Florida where the test samples were showing 98+% positive" that you can share? I find that highly suspect.

Anecdotally, my system (again, in Florida) is up to > 360 patients hospitalized d/t COVID19, and > 30 of them are in ICUs (I do not know how many are on ventilators). These numbers are FAR higher than what we had in April & May.


I'll see if I can find it again...it was a blurb about only 2 or 3 places and somebody was wondering if they had gotten some faulty tests because of the percentages.


As for deaths...for Florida that means a worst case 1.51% fatality rate and that is only IF they have identified every single positive case in the state AND the 4409 'COVID-related deaths' are actually 'COVID-caused deaths'


I can see why the media isn't reporting it like they were a month ago
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 15, 2020, 12:47:26 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1139909
I'll see if I can find it again...it was a blurb about only 2 or 3 places and somebody was wondering if they had gotten some faulty tests because of the percentages.


As for deaths...for Florida that means a worst case 1.51% fatality rate and that is only IF they have identified every single positive case in the state AND the 4409 'COVID-related deaths' are actually 'COVID-caused deaths'


I can see why the media isn't reporting it like they were a month ago

The media has "news fatigue" on pretty much anything & everything. Just because they've eased up on reporting (and the degree of that might depend on what sources you're following) doesn't mean the problem is easing up.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on July 15, 2020, 04:56:05 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1139914
The media has "news fatigue" on pretty much anything & everything. Just because they've eased up on reporting (and the degree of that might depend on what sources you're following) doesn't mean the problem is easing up.

Haha, yeah right. If they had fatality statistics to sensationalise, they'd be doing it.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 15, 2020, 05:34:46 AM
Yeah "50,000 new cases" is a lot more newsworthy than "another 350 deaths". But deaths from Covid lag by about a month apparently, so if the infection rate really is as bad as reported, expect the deaths to increase by mid August. In America the median age of confirmed Covid cases is less than for the rest of the world, so hopefully that will lower the death rate (younger = healthier = less death via pre-existing conditions).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on July 15, 2020, 10:09:12 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1139799
Well, here (https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/florida-sets-single-day-record-for-coronavirus-deaths-with-132-adds-9100-new-cases/2261956/) is an example from Florida where they talk about deaths.

The same article also says, "In another worrisome development, the percent of tests coming back positive increased to 18.31% for all tests reported Tuesday and 15.02% for people who tested positive for the first time."

Do you have a source for your claim of "I saw some stuff out of Florida where the test samples were showing 98+% positive" that you can share? I find that highly suspect.

Anecdotally, my system (again, in Florida) is up to > 360 patients hospitalized d/t COVID19, and > 30 of them are in ICUs (I do not know how many are on ventilators). These numbers are FAR higher than what we had in April & May.


This is the follow up piece from yesterday, it seems they were misreporting the negatives leading to the 98+% positive rate.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-florida-department-of-health-says-some-labs-have-not-reported-negative-covid-19-results (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-florida-department-of-health-says-some-labs-have-not-reported-negative-covid-19-results)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 15, 2020, 11:34:59 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1139947
This is the follow up piece from yesterday, it seems they were misreporting the negatives leading to the 98+% positive rate.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-florida-department-of-health-says-some-labs-have-not-reported-negative-covid-19-results (https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/fox-35-investigates-florida-department-of-health-says-some-labs-have-not-reported-negative-covid-19-results)

Interesting. Thank you. It does also say that the actual positivity rate has increased from 6% to 18%, and that conforms to what I've seen (and posted). The lab errors are a thing, but don't overlook the threefold increase in "real" cases nor the increases in hospitalizations (more than sixfold for my system).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 16, 2020, 01:12:21 PM
Today my count is 411 hospitalized, with 41 of those in ICU (and 29 of those on ventilators).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 25, 2020, 10:18:50 PM
My numbers have dropped in the last two weeks; count is around 360 hospitalized and 40 in ICU (don't have updated stats on ventilators). Still way higher than April and May, but starting to trend downwards.

We have also seen an increasing number of HCW with infections, but most seem to track back to community contacts rather than workplace exposures. Not going into why that's the case, but it's what the RCAs are showing.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Cloyer Bulse on July 26, 2020, 06:44:07 PM
Something like 50,000 people die from the flu every year, yet the mainstream media didn't give a fuck about it until they realized that the Democrats were about to get crushed in the upcoming election because of the economy. All of a sudden we had these dubious models claiming that 2.5 million people were going to die in the United States unless the economy was shut down. It is upon this that the economic lockdowns and mask-wearing were based. When that was proven to be an outrageously ridiculous claim, did they suddenly say "sorry" and end the lockdowns? Of course not, they doubled down. It was just a flimsy excuse for crashing the economy.

The mainstream media knows that most people are too stupid to remember what they said last week, let alone months ago.

The only opinions from the scientific and medical communities that matter are from those that are paid by politicians and those that are paid to appear on CNN and MSNBC. For all other scientists and doctors it's STFU because no one is listening to you.

The average person doesn't read scientific and medical journals and at best they are midwits (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Midwit)

Science is NOT a body of inviolable facts, it is a continual process of discovery. "Settled science" is not a thing. What you hear in the mainstream media is cherry-picked opinions. When they say, "listen to the science", what they mean is "listen to the scientists that we have carefully selected and paid."

I couldn't care less if there are 40 people in the ICU. What I want to know is where are these millions of dead and dying people upon which the lockdowns and mask-wearing are predicated?

When things go horribly wrong, it's usually 99% midwits screwing up and 1% predatory psychopaths who are there to take advantage of the situation. The reason why dictatorships don't work is because it only takes one psychopath to crash a civilization.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 26, 2020, 10:03:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1140214
Today my count is 411 hospitalized, with 41 of those in ICU (and 29 of those on ventilators).

That's what hospitals are for.

When my dad was hospitalized for septic pneumonia in 2018-2019, there wasn't any shamdemic and yet during his 80 days of worthless suffering, the ICU was regularly near or at-max capacity and anyone not in immediate danger were moved over to "ICU stepdown", and some patients were shifted to sister hospitals. None of the staff expressed this was abnormal. Their only concern was the huge influx of traveling RNs who didn't know the hospital or its protocols.

And like my dad, most of the ventilator patients died. The doctors were all "hope, hope, hope" with my mom, but two old timers -  a respiratory therapist and an ICU RN - took me aside and showed me the stats and odds so I knew what was coming.

We all want to be immortal. We all want to pretend we can be 70-80-90 Years Young!
But it's bullshit. We get old, we get sick, we get dead. If we're really lucky, we skip the sick part.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 27, 2020, 05:58:28 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1141895
That's what hospitals are for.

When my dad was hospitalized for septic pneumonia in 2018-2019, there wasn't any shamdemic and yet during his 80 days of worthless suffering, the ICU was regularly near or at-max capacity and anyone not in immediate danger were moved over to "ICU stepdown", and some patients were shifted to sister hospitals. None of the staff expressed this was abnormal. Their only concern was the huge influx of traveling RNs who didn't know the hospital or its protocols.

And like my dad, most of the ventilator patients died. The doctors were all "hope, hope, hope" with my mom, but two old timers -  a respiratory therapist and an ICU RN - took me aside and showed me the stats and odds so I knew what was coming.

We all want to be immortal. We all want to pretend we can be 70-80-90 Years Young!
But it's bullshit. We get old, we get sick, we get dead. If we're really lucky, we skip the sick part.

I'm pointing out that there are hundreds hospitalized with COVID-19 as an unbiased account, but also as a factual counter to those that say it's the same (or less than) the flu. Our numbers for those with influenza (of any variety) has stayed at < 40 throughout this flu season.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 27, 2020, 12:58:24 PM
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1141865
Something like 50,000 people die from the flu every year, yet the mainstream media didn't give a fuck about it until they realized that the Democrats were about to get crushed in the upcoming election because of the economy. All of a sudden we had these dubious models claiming that 2.5 million people were going to die in the United States unless the economy was shut down. It is upon this that the economic lockdowns and mask-wearing were based. When that was proven to be an outrageously ridiculous claim, did they suddenly say "sorry" and end the lockdowns? Of course not, they doubled down. It was just a flimsy excuse for crashing the economy.

If this is partisan U.S. politics, how does that explain the entire rest of the world? For example, South Korea had a massive campaign of mask-wearing and social distancing back in February before it was much of an issue in the U.S. Israel is one of the more right-wing world governments, and the Netanyahu government implemented lockdowns as well. The government of every country is struggling with covid-19, and in most countries, it's not a partisan issue of left/right the way that it is in the U.S.

I'm not even sure what your position is, actually, since your claim in the science thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42327-Liberals-Are-Against-Science!&p=1140797&viewfull=1#post1140797) was:
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1141865
There is very obviously no pandemic. No one is sick. And yet people are walking around with their faces covered. In the middle of July. And there is no scientific evidence that masks protect against the flu at all.


Is your position still that no one is sick? If so, what do you think happened in Italy and other places in the world outside of U.S. politics that claimed to have many deaths?


Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1141865
The only opinions from the scientific and medical communities that matter are from those that are paid by politicians and those that are paid to appear on CNN and MSNBC. For all other scientists and doctors it's STFU because no one is listening to you.

The average person doesn't read scientific and medical journals and at best they are midwits (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Midwit)

I agree with you that the average person doesn't read scientific and medical journals. But among the people who do read such journals, there is widespread belief that the pandemic exists. All of the medical and scientific professionals that I know are of this opinion, independently of any mainstream media. I've read this article, for example, on the effect of mask mandates:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662657/

Masks don't generally protect the wearer, but they reduce infections by preventing the wearer from unintentionally spreading. It's not a big effect, but it is significant.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 27, 2020, 01:29:00 PM
Time for some link bombing. Have fun.

Fauci on masks:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dr-fauci-made-the-coronavirus-pandemic-worse-by-lying-about-masks/ar-BB15zyW3
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/
https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-says-everyone-wear-masks-165031498.html

Fauci on chloroquine:
https://principia-scientific.org/fauci-knew-about-hcq-in-2005-nobody-needed-to-die/
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/27/fauci-hydroxychloroquine-not-effective-against-coronavirus-283980/
https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

Reporting Covid deaths:

https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/birx-says-government-is-classifying-all-deaths-of-patients-with-coronavirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/health-department-says-england-counting-anyone-who-died-after-testing-positive-for-coronavirus-as-related-death
https://canadafreepress.com/article/the-cdc-confesses-to-lying-about-covid-19-death-numbers/
https://cbs12.com/news/coronavirus/dozens-of-florida-labs-still-report-only-positive-covid-tests-skewing-positivity-rate
https://www.texasobserver.org/covid-19-tests-combine-texas/
https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2020/jul/20/hamco-virus-hospitalizations/527894/#/questions/2602258

So yeah. I have questions about just how legit this 'pandemic' is.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on July 27, 2020, 06:22:55 PM
It seems to me that if there really is a Wuhan pandemic then the government would not allow mass gatherings of people.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 27, 2020, 06:46:50 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1141932
I'm pointing out that there are hundreds hospitalized with COVID-19 as an unbiased account, but also as a factual counter to those that say it's the same (or less than) the flu. Our numbers for those with influenza (of any variety) has stayed at < 40 throughout this flu season.


Since the gov't is foolishly and bizarrely counting who dies WITH the KungFlu as if they died FROM the KungFlu (aka, How to Make Bad Data 101), and we know hospitals are chugging down that tasty Medicare bonus gravy for every case, there is zero reason to trust hospital numbers anymore. Healthcare systems which were constantly being investigated for Medicare fraud for decades are now given carte blanche to milk the system so...no surprise they'd milk the system.

If the various incentives for pushing the Shamdemic didn't exist in healthcare and the media, it would take up as much time on the nightly news as black-on-black crime.

But we gotta make sure any remaining American spirit is broken!! Fear da sniffles!!!

And you MUST wear your face diaper, whether out of fear or submission. OBEY!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 27, 2020, 11:42:09 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1142017
Since the gov't is foolishly and bizarrely counting who dies WITH the KungFlu as if they died FROM the KungFlu (aka, How to Make Bad Data 101), and we know hospitals are chugging down that tasty Medicare bonus gravy for every case, there is zero reason to trust hospital numbers anymore. Healthcare systems which were constantly being investigated for Medicare fraud for decades are now given carte blanche to milk the system so...no surprise they'd milk the system.

If the various incentives for pushing the Shamdemic didn't exist in healthcare and the media, it would take up as much time on the nightly news as black-on-black crime.

But we gotta make sure any remaining American spirit is broken!! Fear da sniffles!!!

And you MUST wear your face diaper, whether out of fear or submission. OBEY!


This old shit again.

Ask FactCheck weighed in April 21: "The figures cited by Jensen generally square with estimated Medicare payments for COVID-19 hospitalizations, based on average Medicare payments for patients with similar diagnoses."

Ask FactCheck reporter Angelo Fichera, who interviewed Jensen, noted, "Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons. But that's how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media."

Ask FactCheck's conclusion: "Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting."

Julie Aultman, a member of the editorial board of the American Medical Association's Journal of Ethics, told PolitiFact it is "very unlikely that physicians or hospitals will falsify data or be motivated by money to do so." (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/)

Now with some "Yes, But" to help the reality stand out from ignorance. Don't let the fools on social media shape your reality.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 28, 2020, 01:58:33 AM
America's Frontline Doctors SCOTUS Press Conference Transcript (https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/americas-frontline-doctors-scotus-press-conference-transcript?fbclid=IwAR0d5W5mDeTeygwGcBrcyJazXyfBANLWq69bs_VTyVb4MlREyiKxfEWuWAc)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on July 28, 2020, 02:27:32 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142075
America's Frontline Doctors SCOTUS Press Conference Transcript (https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/americas-frontline-doctors-scotus-press-conference-transcript?fbclid=IwAR0d5W5mDeTeygwGcBrcyJazXyfBANLWq69bs_VTyVb4MlREyiKxfEWuWAc)

Greetings!

Wow. A trainload of medical doctors--experts from all over the country--basically saying that Covid is fucking bullshit. Yeah, they have some medicinal treatments that can deal with the virus, kids are highly resistant, and people can choose to wear a mask or not. And kids can go back to school, and we can reopen our businesses, and get going. Keep an eye on things, be cautious, but the whole panic and lockdown is all a bunch of fucking bullshit.

I agree. These doctors are courageous to stand against the authoritarian mantra--wear a mask, shut up, and wait for a "vaccine."

Good stuff to hear!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 28, 2020, 05:23:08 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142065
This old shit again.


LOL. CARES act specifies a 20% bump on the American Hospital Association website.
Apparently, FactCheck.org can't match my 10 seconds on Google.
Creates a Medicare add-on payment of 20% for both rural and urban inpatient hospital COVID-19 patients;
https://www.aha.org/special-bulletin/2020-03-26-senate-passes-coronavirus-aid-relief-and-economic-security-cares-act (https://www.aha.org/special-bulletin/2020-03-26-senate-passes-coronavirus-aid-relief-and-economic-security-cares-act)

Healthcare is one of the most corrupt industries in America. I did headhunting for the senior care industry and we serviced assisted living and skilled nursing chains. Medicare "revisions" were constant after audits, every Director of Nursing Services and Administrator was hired based on their skill maximizing Medicare dollars, and let's not start on the crazy rampant elder abuse.

Nurses are the only true caregivers in hospitals (when not rehearsing for tiktok videos). Doctors can barely spend 3 minutes in the room before fleeing like vampires from the sun and each micro-visit is $350 or more. After my dad's final hospital stint, we got over 60 different bills, many from doctors who never saw my dad, but since everything was covered by Medicare, what was our incentive to spend hours on the phone reporting?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 28, 2020, 05:26:15 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142075
America's Frontline Doctors SCOTUS Press Conference Transcript (https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/americas-frontline-doctors-scotus-press-conference-transcript?fbclid=IwAR0d5W5mDeTeygwGcBrcyJazXyfBANLWq69bs_VTyVb4MlREyiKxfEWuWAc)

The video that transcript was taken from has been taken down for spreading false and misleading information.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 28, 2020, 05:43:32 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142086
The video that transcript was taken from has been taken down for spreading false and misleading information.


And everybody can watch it on BitChute!!!




Hello, I'm Dr. Stella Immanuel. I'm a primary care physician in Houston, Texas. I actually went to medical school in West Africa, Nigeria, where I took care of malaria patients, treated them with hydroxychloroquine and stuff like that. So I'm actually used to these medications. I'm here because I have personally treated over 350 patients with COVID. Patients that have diabetes, patients that have high blood pressure, patients that have asthma, old people … I think my oldest patient is 92 … 87 year olds. And the result has been the same. I put them on hydroxychloroquine, I put them on zinc, I put them on Zithromax, and they're all well.

The answer is simple. Do a review of her 350 patients to see if she's telling the truth.
If she's lying, yank her medical license.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on July 28, 2020, 06:41:53 AM
Greetings!

Wear a mask, shut up, and wait for a vaccine.

Going on 6 months of this bullshit now. Originally, the lockdowns were supposed to be for two-four weeks, so that we could 'Flatten the curve" and our hospitals wouldn't be overwhelmed.

Now it's shut the fuck up, wear a mask, stay locked down and wait for a vaccine? There may never be a comprehensive vaccine. Even if a vaccine is developed, it might only be in 3 months, 6 months, or even longer. *Maybe*

So until then, everyone stays locked down, kids stay home, and people that do most of anything except sit on their ass in an office get to sit at home, unemployed. The elites and the fortunate tech people get to continue collecting a paycheck while "working at home."

How fucking nice. This is all bullshit. People need to get back to work. The chances of anyone that is healthy and under the age of 60 getting the virus and dying is next to nothing.

Sick and compromised people should stay home, isolated from everyone else. All the healthy people need to get back to work and make a living.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 28, 2020, 08:32:23 AM
I love how HappyDaze is blowing off all the contradictory data and opinions as misinformation.

It's nice to know he puts his information filtering trust in the hands of Facebook.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on July 28, 2020, 08:39:18 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142101
I love how HappyDaze is blowing off all the contradictory data and opinions as misinformation.

It's nice to know he puts his information filtering trust in the hands of Facebook.

Sure sign of someone promoting the Narrative over and against the facts. That he discredits himself in the process is invisible to him.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on July 28, 2020, 09:47:20 AM
The Vaccine if their truly is one is probably months away imo.

Myself just doing the quarantine basics of wearing a mask and proper social distancing when I can. Unlike some of you down in the USA they can fine us for not following proper protocol starting at 1000$+. In any case I see stupidity from both sides. Either being too paranoid about the virus vs thinking that their personal opinions are perfect shield means never getting sick.

Like I told someone complaining about business refusing to serve them I used the below image and just told them to reword American to Canadain

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4717[/ATTACH]
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 28, 2020, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1142092
Greetings!

How fucking nice. This is all bullshit. People need to get back to work. The chances of anyone that is healthy and under the age of 60 getting the virus and dying is next to nothing.

Sick and compromised people should stay home, isolated from everyone else. All the healthy people need to get back to work and make a living.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hi Shark,
         you're right about the young having far less to fear from COVID (although we have no idea about any long-term effects - hopefully minimal), but how are you going to isolate everyone who is over 60 and vulnerable? Not all of us live in our own apartment/house. Lots of people share houses with the older generation. Or is it only rich people that get to isolate? Coming out of lockdown is vital but what do you about those who can't isolate but need to? I have no answer to that one.

Oh, and on the "flatten the curve", that was always going to be a long term strategy. If you are going to "flatten the curve" you need to do it until you have herd immunity or a vaccine or have ramped up your health services to cope. Anyone who said 2-4 weeks was deluding themselves (and others).

Cheers,
Spon
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 28, 2020, 11:00:18 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142086
The video that transcript was taken from has been taken down for spreading false and misleading information.


What's it like to be continually deluded because you put ideology above science?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 28, 2020, 11:24:16 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1142106
Sure sign of someone promoting the Narrative over and against the facts. That he discredits himself in the process is invisible to him.

I'm just learning how fucking stupid many of the people here are and it's very clear that this site is full of crazy-ass, right-wing conspiracy nutjobs. And I say this as a conservative.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 28, 2020, 11:25:10 AM
Brad, you're a pathetic piece of shit. I'm done trying to engage with you as anything but that.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 28, 2020, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: Brad;1142119
What's it like to be continually deluded because you put ideology above science?

You tell me asshole.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 28, 2020, 11:46:49 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142124
You tell me asshole.

Multiple doctors explicitly saying HCQ works to mitigate COVID-19, video is scrubbed from the Internet. You claim it was due to "misinformation". At this point either you're ignorant as fuck, or actively trying to censor people. Tell me which one.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 28, 2020, 12:24:23 PM
Quote from: Brad;1142127
Multiple doctors explicitly saying HCQ works to mitigate COVID-19, video is scrubbed from the Internet. You claim it was due to "misinformation". At this point either you're ignorant as fuck, or actively trying to censor people. Tell me which one.

Third option. Your sources are shit. Your argument is shit. You are shit. Fuck off.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 28, 2020, 12:48:24 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1142088
Hello, I'm Dr. Stella Immanuel. I'm a primary care physician in Houston, Texas. I actually went to medical school in West Africa, Nigeria, where I took care of malaria patients, treated them with hydroxychloroquine and stuff like that. So I'm actually used to these medications. I'm here because I have personally treated over 350 patients with COVID. Patients that have diabetes, patients that have high blood pressure, patients that have asthma, old people … I think my oldest patient is 92 … 87 year olds. And the result has been the same. I put them on hydroxychloroquine, I put them on zinc, I put them on Zithromax, and they're all well.

The answer is simple. Do a review of her 350 patients to see if she's telling the truth.
If she's lying, yank her medical license.

Here's what I can find about Stella Immanuel. According to healthgrades, she is a pediatrician in Leesville, LA. She has one review with five stars from May 2019 saying "My visit was a Emergency room in Many La she provide excellent care".

https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-stella-immanuel-28rnt

I cannot find any medical publications by her or other testimonials from her patients. I do find she is the author of five books on Amazon:

* Sustained Fire Until They Are Consumed (Occupying Forces Series)
* The Proverbs 31 Man: The Man At The Gate (Occupying Forces Series)
* Jesus Help The Church Has Been Caged (Occupying Forces Series)
* I Trust God As My Commander in Chief (The Occupying Force Series)
* Keys to Effective Spiritual Warfare (The Occupying Force)

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Stella-Immanuel/e/B00JAC2TXK/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

Here is her Twitter feed. She lists herself as in Houston, TX. Her bio is "Physician, Author, Speaker, Entrepreneur, Deliverance Minister, God's battle axe and weapon of war. Rehoboth Medical Center, Houston, TX. Fire Power Ministries."

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel?lang=en

Her website, firepowerministry.org, is not active currently, but it is available on archive.org. It has a number of posts from her dated from 2011 to 2016. The headline for the main page is:
Quote
FIRE POWER DELIVERANCE MINISTRIES WITH DR STELLA IMMANUEL

Join our Deliverance Prayer Line: 712 432 0075. pin 835555#. Daily - 11pm – 12.30am US Central Time. The Violent Taketh it by Force. Do not Missed Tuesday Night Deliverance NIGHT on the prayer line.


https://web.archive.org/web/20191229084700/http://firepowerministry.org/

She also has a number of Youtube videos. Her channel has the banner "People are healed and delivered by the hand of God / You don't need to be prayed for / The Holy Spirit does the work".

https://www.youtube.com/user/firpowerministries

I don't think that her ministry work should be evidence against her medical claims per se. However, I am concerned that her own self-published material has no medical testimonials or evidence, but instead only touts things like "PRAYER AGAINST MARINE WITCHRAFT OR WATER SPIRITS".

But I expect that somehow I'll just be accused of political bias and naiveté for investigating her this way.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 28, 2020, 12:58:24 PM
I will say this again.. there will never be a vaccine.
Granted you might be sold a vaccine but it won't work.. that is it won't protect you for longer than two months.
Science has tried this again and again with this type of virus no success for the last 50 years.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2020, 01:22:13 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1142136
Here's what I can find about Stella Immanuel. According to healthgrades, she is a pediatrician in Leesville, LA. She has one review with five stars from May 2019 saying "My visit was a Emergency room in Many La she provide excellent care".

https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-stella-immanuel-28rnt

I cannot find any medical publications by her or other testimonials from her patients. I do find she is the author of five books on Amazon:

* Sustained Fire Until They Are Consumed (Occupying Forces Series)
* The Proverbs 31 Man: The Man At The Gate (Occupying Forces Series)
* Jesus Help The Church Has Been Caged (Occupying Forces Series)
* I Trust God As My Commander in Chief (The Occupying Force Series)
* Keys to Effective Spiritual Warfare (The Occupying Force)

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Stella-Immanuel/e/B00JAC2TXK/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

Here is her Twitter feed. She lists herself as in Houston, TX. Her bio is "Physician, Author, Speaker, Entrepreneur, Deliverance Minister, God's battle axe and weapon of war. Rehoboth Medical Center, Houston, TX. Fire Power Ministries."

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel?lang=en

Her website, firepowerministry.org, is not active currently, but it is available on archive.org. It has a number of posts from her dated from 2011 to 2016. The headline for the main page is:


https://web.archive.org/web/20191229084700/http://firepowerministry.org/

She also has a number of Youtube videos. Her channel has the banner "People are healed and delivered by the hand of God / You don't need to be prayed for / The Holy Spirit does the work".

https://www.youtube.com/user/firpowerministries

I don't think that her ministry work should be evidence against her medical claims per se. However, I am concerned that her own self-published material has no medical testimonials or evidence, but instead only touts things like "PRAYER AGAINST MARINE WITCHRAFT OR WATER SPIRITS".

But I expect that somehow I'll just be accused of political bias and naiveté for investigating her this way.

"I don't think that her ministry work should be evidence against her medical claims per se."

Yes, yes you do think it should, which is why you did, this is called an ad hominem, address her arguments or "investigation" not shit that has zero bearing on it.

Funny enough you don't do the same with the leftist motivated "research".

Mind you, I don't know or care what she said/wrote, not saying she's correct or not, just pointing your blatant hypocrisy.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 28, 2020, 01:39:38 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142086
The video that transcript was taken from has been taken down for spreading false and misleading information.


Yes, the doctors are getting Stalinized for speaking out.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 28, 2020, 01:42:05 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1142136
Here's what I can find about Stella Immanuel. According to healthgrades, she is a pediatrician in Leesville, LA. She has one review with five stars from May 2019 saying "My visit was a Emergency room in Many La she provide excellent care".

https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-stella-immanuel-28rnt

I cannot find any medical publications by her or other testimonials from her patients. I do find she is the author of five books on Amazon:

* Sustained Fire Until They Are Consumed (Occupying Forces Series)
* The Proverbs 31 Man: The Man At The Gate (Occupying Forces Series)
* Jesus Help The Church Has Been Caged (Occupying Forces Series)
* I Trust God As My Commander in Chief (The Occupying Force Series)
* Keys to Effective Spiritual Warfare (The Occupying Force)

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Stella-Immanuel/e/B00JAC2TXK/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

Here is her Twitter feed. She lists herself as in Houston, TX. Her bio is "Physician, Author, Speaker, Entrepreneur, Deliverance Minister, God's battle axe and weapon of war. Rehoboth Medical Center, Houston, TX. Fire Power Ministries."

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel?lang=en

Her website, firepowerministry.org, is not active currently, but it is available on archive.org. It has a number of posts from her dated from 2011 to 2016. The headline for the main page is:


https://web.archive.org/web/20191229084700/http://firepowerministry.org/

She also has a number of Youtube videos. Her channel has the banner "People are healed and delivered by the hand of God / You don't need to be prayed for / The Holy Spirit does the work".

https://www.youtube.com/user/firpowerministries

I don't think that her ministry work should be evidence against her medical claims per se. However, I am concerned that her own self-published material has no medical testimonials or evidence, but instead only touts things like "PRAYER AGAINST MARINE WITCHRAFT OR WATER SPIRITS".

But I expect that somehow I'll just be accused of political bias and naiveté for investigating her this way.

I don't care about her background. I care that multiple doctors are giving an alternative perspective on Covid-19 and getting silenced for it.

I care about the evidence, not mudslinging.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 28, 2020, 01:47:16 PM
Quote from: jhkim
"But I expect that somehow I'll just be accused of political bias and naiveté for investigating her this way."


You might have just added credence to her claims for some of us. :-)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 28, 2020, 01:50:57 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142133
Third option. Your sources are shit. Your argument is shit. You are shit. Fuck off.

Hahah wow...their website is being scrubbed off the internet for DARE going against Fraudci and his medical gestapo. So again, are you in on this scam, or just being a fucking moron?

Quote from: jhkim;1142136
Here's what I can find about Stella Immanuel. According to healthgrades, she is a pediatrician in Leesville, LA. She has one review with five stars from May 2019 saying "My visit was a Emergency room in Many La she provide excellent care".

https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-stella-immanuel-28rnt

I cannot find any medical publications by her or other testimonials from her patients. I do find she is the author of five books on Amazon:

* Sustained Fire Until They Are Consumed (Occupying Forces Series)
* The Proverbs 31 Man: The Man At The Gate (Occupying Forces Series)
* Jesus Help The Church Has Been Caged (Occupying Forces Series)
* I Trust God As My Commander in Chief (The Occupying Force Series)
* Keys to Effective Spiritual Warfare (The Occupying Force)

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Stella-Immanuel/e/B00JAC2TXK/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

Here is her Twitter feed. She lists herself as in Houston, TX. Her bio is "Physician, Author, Speaker, Entrepreneur, Deliverance Minister, God's battle axe and weapon of war. Rehoboth Medical Center, Houston, TX. Fire Power Ministries."

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel?lang=en

Her website, firepowerministry.org, is not active currently, but it is available on archive.org. It has a number of posts from her dated from 2011 to 2016. The headline for the main page is:


https://web.archive.org/web/20191229084700/http://firepowerministry.org/

She also has a number of Youtube videos. Her channel has the banner "People are healed and delivered by the hand of God / You don't need to be prayed for / The Holy Spirit does the work".

https://www.youtube.com/user/firpowerministries

I don't think that her ministry work should be evidence against her medical claims per se. However, I am concerned that her own self-published material has no medical testimonials or evidence, but instead only touts things like "PRAYER AGAINST MARINE WITCHRAFT OR WATER SPIRITS".

But I expect that somehow I'll just be accused of political bias and naiveté for investigating her this way.

It doesn't matter if she says the moon is made from green cheese, she was very explicit that she directly treated 350 COVID patients with HCQ and all of them fully recovered. For a scientist, you sure do hate empirical evidence.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2020, 01:53:14 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142086
The video that transcript was taken from has been taken down for spreading false and misleading information.


"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say."
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 28, 2020, 02:09:18 PM
They have their "science". No questions past this point please.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on July 28, 2020, 03:49:32 PM
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4724[/ATTACH]
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on July 28, 2020, 03:59:06 PM
Cheap, easy to get generics that the family GP can administer on a therapeutic basis doesn't make anyone money.  Stop being so foolish.  The science is settled -- pharma companies/senators love money!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on July 28, 2020, 04:40:57 PM
Greetings!

Well, initially, I had more faith in the main response to the virus. However, as the *months* have passed, I have grown more skeptical and suspicious. Beyond that, however, people need to get back to work, and make a living. In spite of the chance of getting the virus. That's a *CHANCE*. If you don't work and pay bills, you will soon be homeless, and starving. That's not a chance--that is a CERTAINTY. You will lose everything--your house, your car, your possessions, comforts, everything, reduced to living out of a backpack. Ultimately, the medical doctors and experts can argue--and pharma and politicians can rub their hands at making money--but losing everything and living out of a backpack under the bridge is the reality many people face if they submit and obey the narrative.

So, fuck the narrative. It really doesn't matter what the official narrative says--because it doesn't change the reality that most people are facing if they obey the narrative.

People need to get back to work, and just deal with the virus themselves. Wear a mask, wash hands, social distancing, yada yada yada. The lockdown stuff needs to be ended though for damned sure. Don't even tell me we need to have lockdowns for a goddamned thing when the same fucking officials say its just fine for thousands of people to get together for a BLM riot. That is one huge clue right there that there is something deeply wrong about this whole thing. Churches have to be closed down--but abortion clinics need to stay open. Likewise, weed shops can also stay open. It all seems very selective to me as to what the Liberals want to stay open, and what they want to restrict and close down.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 28, 2020, 04:42:02 PM
Quote from: Brad;1142146
It doesn't matter if she says the moon is made from green cheese, she was very explicit that she directly treated 350 COVID patients with HCQ and all of them fully recovered. For a scientist, you sure do hate empirical evidence.
What I would look for is evidence beyond "She said it, therefore it's so." I looked specifically on healthgrades to see if there were any testimonials from patients who had been given HCQ for COVID-19 and reported successful treatment, and on her other online profiles to see if she had published anything with data about her treatments.

For empirical evidence, I'd want some documentation and corroboration by other parties. And if that is to be dispensed with, then I'd at least want to look at her qualifications and her history of other successful treatments.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 28, 2020, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1142164
What I would look for is evidence beyond "She said it, therefore it's so." I looked specifically on healthgrades to see if there were any testimonials from patients who had been given HCQ for COVID-19 and reported successful treatment, and on her other online profiles to see if she had published anything with data about her treatments.

For empirical evidence, I'd want some documentation and corroboration by other parties. And if that is to be dispensed with, then I'd at least want to look at her qualifications and her history of other successful treatments.

Multiple doctors treating MANY patients separately using similar methods isn't corroboration enough? There are countless stories about HCQ being used successfully, but every...single...one is called "anecdotal". But discredited studies that overdosed 20 people are cited as counter-evidence. All because a bunch of people can make a lot of money from a fake vaccine.

Further, if this thing is such a dangerous killer, why wouldn't you at least try to use something that is 1) extremely cheap, 2) very safe, and 3) easily obtainable as a method to mitigate symptoms? Are people on their death bed just supposed to wait around for fucktard "scientists" to run double-blind studies for months instead of using something that has been demonstrably shown to work?

All I know is if I got that crap, I'd take the HCQ. Worst that could happen is I don't get any better, which is where I'd be if I didn't take it. So, again, why are you so adamant it doesn't work? Because OMB?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 28, 2020, 05:59:10 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1142164

For empirical evidence, I'd want some documentation and corroboration by other parties. And if that is to be dispensed with, then I'd at least want to look at her qualifications and her history of other successful treatments.


Until then, do you think it's justified to censor her and the other doctors? Because that's what's happening.
Meanwhile every goddamn medical "expert" was shooting from the hip in March, telling us not to wear masks, for instance. Why weren't they censored?

This is all more fishy than going down on The Little Mermaid.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: TNMalt on July 28, 2020, 06:34:54 PM
Here is a link that talks about the malaria drugs used so far. Lists studies that confirmed and did not confirm the results. https://www.goodrx.com/blog/coronavirus-medicine-chloroquine-hydroxychloroquine-as-covid19-treatment/
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 28, 2020, 07:00:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1142136
Here's what I can find about Stella Immanuel. According to healthgrades, she is a pediatrician in Leesville, LA. She has one review with five stars from May 2019 saying "My visit was a Emergency room in Many La she provide excellent care".

https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-stella-immanuel-28rnt

I cannot find any medical publications by her or other testimonials from her patients. I do find she is the author of five books on Amazon:

* Sustained Fire Until They Are Consumed (Occupying Forces Series)
* The Proverbs 31 Man: The Man At The Gate (Occupying Forces Series)
* Jesus Help The Church Has Been Caged (Occupying Forces Series)
* I Trust God As My Commander in Chief (The Occupying Force Series)
* Keys to Effective Spiritual Warfare (The Occupying Force)

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Stella-Immanuel/e/B00JAC2TXK/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

Here is her Twitter feed. She lists herself as in Houston, TX. Her bio is "Physician, Author, Speaker, Entrepreneur, Deliverance Minister, God's battle axe and weapon of war. Rehoboth Medical Center, Houston, TX. Fire Power Ministries."

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel?lang=en

Her website, firepowerministry.org, is not active currently, but it is available on archive.org. It has a number of posts from her dated from 2011 to 2016. The headline for the main page is:


https://web.archive.org/web/20191229084700/http://firepowerministry.org/

She also has a number of Youtube videos. Her channel has the banner "People are healed and delivered by the hand of God / You don't need to be prayed for / The Holy Spirit does the work".

https://www.youtube.com/user/firpowerministries

I don't think that her ministry work should be evidence against her medical claims per se. However, I am concerned that her own self-published material has no medical testimonials or evidence, but instead only touts things like "PRAYER AGAINST MARINE WITCHRAFT OR WATER SPIRITS".

But I expect that somehow I'll just be accused of political bias and naiveté for investigating her this way.


And that's without even going into her beliefs of evil spirits that fuck sleeping women to cause endometriosis and all that sweet CS bullshit about alien DNA in the medicine. The lady is a fucking loon.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 28, 2020, 09:51:27 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142176
And that's without even going into her beliefs of evil spirits that fuck sleeping women to cause endometriosis and all that sweet CS bullshit about alien DNA in the medicine. The lady is a fucking loon.

Do you feel the same about all the other doctors making statements, or are you just hoping discrediting one doctor will make this all go away?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 28, 2020, 10:25:15 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142190
Do you feel the same about all the other doctors making statements, or are you just hoping discrediting one doctor will make this all go away?

Ad hominem is the penultimate path for the hypocritical before they burst into flames.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on July 28, 2020, 11:01:26 PM
Ladies and gents, I see no reason to come down so hard on Happy Daze.

Assuming he's actually in nurse and clinic management (not to doubt him, but its the internet and nobody knows anybody), Happy Daze is dealing with the US healthcare system from the inside which sucks at the best of times, let alone during the shamdemic. When I was headhunting in healthcare, I'd get calls for Nursing Directors with crazy ass stories about how the healthcare sausage is made.

As for Dr. Immanuel's claims, I want her evidence. She says 350 patients recovered from the KungFlu using Trump juice. Great! Let's see the patient charts (anonymized of course) and let other doctors review the charts. Let's have an open discussion.

As for her religiosity, when my father was dying, his doctor asked if he could pray to Allah at dad's bedside for his healing. Thus, we know the doctor was a worthless quack who is obviously ignorant of SETTLED SCIENCE!!! and should be totally ignored.

Or, he was a gentle man of faith who devoted his life to the healing arts, and when he reached the end of man's science, he turned to his religion.

BTW, I'm 10000% cool with Dr. Immanuel losing her medical license IF she's proven to be lying.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 28, 2020, 11:07:16 PM
One of the references the doctors were promoting before they were silenced.

https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

Perhaps this will help our friends who want to point at one specific person instead of the substance of their claims.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 29, 2020, 02:54:15 AM
Quote from: Brad;1142196
Ad hominem is the penultimate path for the hypocritical before they burst into flames.


No shit dumbfuck. I've given up having any real conversations with the likes of you. You all want to spread your CS nutter-butter all over, fine. I'm just here to make fun of how ridiculous you all are now. There's nothing real on this site anymore, so I'll just keep throwing out a heaping helping of "go fuck yourselves you terrible shits" as there's nothing better to do.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on July 29, 2020, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142217
There's nothing real on this site anymore

Greetings!

Hey, HappyDaze! What do you mean by that?

Concerning the virus, I don't know why you guys get so hostile. There is a virus. That's a fact. It is all over the country, and all over the world. The debate comes from how to respond to the virus. There are some people--mostly the elderly, with other comorbidities--that are vulnerable to the virus. Most other people are not likely to die from the virus. That seems to be universally accepted as fact. As for what mitigation measures to take, that seems to be well in the hands of individual people and individual communities. I think that is the way it should be.

I appreciate your knowledge, HappyDaze, and your perspective. There seems to be lots of inconsistencies within the political leadership in handling the virus, and many of the doctors and such experts seem to be all over the map--or conveniently lining right up with various political leaders that seem to want everyone to "Wear a mask, shut up, and wait for a vaccine." There is a whole lot of problems with such an attitude, you know? The virus isn't like the Black Death, though many people seem to act like it is. I'm always reminded of the very low death rate of this virus--it is what, less than 1% for people under 60 that are healthy? And the death rate of those over 60 is like, 1 1/2% to 2% or something very low. So, all of the draconian authoritarianism and the hysterical alarmism by some seems not only out of place, but also very suspicious.

Ah well. It's ok for everyone to have different opinions.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 29, 2020, 04:07:54 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1142200
As for Dr. Immanuel's claims, I want her evidence. She says 350 patients recovered from the KungFlu using Trump juice. Great! Let's see the patient charts (anonymized of course) and let other doctors review the charts. Let's have an open discussion.
Absolutely! If there is corroboration of the claims, then the data should definitely be considered together with other studies of hydroxychloroquine effectiveness. I'd particularly be curious to see about the ages of the patients, since Dr. Immanuel is listed as a pediatrician in HealthGrades. If the 350 patients are all pediatric, then full recovery isn't unusual since the mortality rate for children is extremely low even without treatment. But if the 350 are elderly, then it's much more significant. Without that data, though, it's hard to tell anything.

There have been a number of published studies on hydroxychloroquine effectiveness, but as far as I know, it's still lacking a controlled double-blind test. There was a recent Nature paper on treatment using it:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41419-020-2721-8

The conclusion was:

Quote
Taken together, given the fast-increasing number of COVID-19 patients and the urgent need for effective and safe drugs in the clinic, CQ and HCQ have potential, but controversial, characteristics to combat pathological inflammation associated with COVID-19. The recommendation CQ and HCQ as a preventive medication for healthy and asymptomatic infected persons, even for patients experiencing only mild symptoms in the early-stage of SARS-CoV-2 infection because of the immunosuppressive effects of the two drugs will diminish specific antiviral immunity, or as late stages therapeutic, still waits a proper double blind clinical trial. However, HCQ has been hypothesized to help controlling distinct effects of SARS-CoV-2 infection, as described above and compared to CQ, HCQ confers similar antiviral and anti-inflammatory effects while has fewer side effects, indicating HCQ is a more optimal selection for treating COVID-19. Importantly, when HCQ is used to treat COVID-19 patients, individual immune profiles should be thoroughly evaluated and considered. The above consideration offers a clear rational for a systematic evaluation of efficacy at the clinical level.

From this, it sounds like there's potential but more study and especially a double-blind trial is warranted.


Quote from: Brad;1142166
All I know is if I got that crap, I'd take the HCQ. Worst that could happen is I don't get any better, which is where I'd be if I didn't take it. So, again, why are you so adamant it doesn't work? Because OMB?
I'm not a doctor and so I'm not saying anything definitively about what medicine you should or shouldn't take. However, I would strongly recommend against taking *any* prescription medicine without it being prescribed by your doctor. Almost any medicine can have major side effects, particularly if not taken in exactly prescribed dosages. From what I read, hydroxychloroquine has heart rhythm side effects among others. In the FDA released report, they included some specific details of the side effects:

Quote
In our evaluation of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine use in the setting of prevention or treatment of COVID-19, QT prolongation was the  most frequently reported serious adverse event for both hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. Notably, 84% of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine cases reporting a serious cardiac adverse event also reported concomitant use of at least one other QT prolonging medication; 69% of the cases with a serious adverse cardiac event reported concomitant azithromycin use, with or without other QT prolonging medications. Fourteen cases were identified with ventricular arrhythmia, ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation; seven of these had a fatal outcome. Two of the ventricular arrhythmia cases also reported TdP, one of which was fatal. Two additional cases reported TdP, neither of these were fatal.

Source: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/2020/OSE%20Review_Hydroxychloroquine-Cholorquine%20-%2019May2020_Redacted.pdf

If you have a doctor you trust who prescribes it, then please listen to them.


Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142172
Until then, do you think it's justified to censor her and the other doctors? Because that's what's happening.
Meanwhile every goddamn medical "expert" was shooting from the hip in March, telling us not to wear masks, for instance. Why weren't they censored?

This is all more fishy than going down on The Little Mermaid.
I can't personally confirm about her claims either way, but it's the choice of particular news agencies how they want to handle it. I do think that uncorroborated medical advice is extremely sensitive and can potentially be dangerous, so sites should be wary when deciding about if and how to present such material. For example, Breitbart had originally shared the 40-minute video, but they have now stopped and released a new article which covers more about Immanuel's other beliefs alongside the HCQ claims.

https://www.breitbart.com/news/aliens-and-reptilians-us-viral-video-doctors-odd-beliefs/

Is Breitbart engaging in censorship? I think they're choosing what to report and pass on, which is what responsible news outlets do.

Regarding masks, in March, I heard constant calls that masks and other PPE were desperately needed for health care workers. People were trying to organize to home sew masks to send to hospitals and clinics. I have a good friend who is an emergency room doctor, and she talked about the issues at her hospital. In the sources I read, the experts were quite clear about this. I had three N95 masks that I considered donating, but the package was already opened, so I didn't think they'd be accepted. It seems to me that many people improperly concluded from "Masks are desperately needed by health care workers" that "Masks aren't useful for anyone but health care workers."

In any case, wearing masks is a public health issue which is different than medical advice. Personally, I'd already been wearing a mask in February since I was in South Korea at the time. There, it was already common for people to wear masks, even before covid-19. I continued to use a mask upon coming back to the U.S.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 29, 2020, 04:09:38 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1142221
Greetings!

Hey, HappyDaze! What do you mean by that?
What I'm talking about is that so many people here just want to spout their political bullshit and want to view every fucking conversation as thought the politics of it matter more than anything else. So much fucking us/them thinking and no self-reflection on it. I mean really, how the fuck does it help to fling the term "Marxist" around so easily yet object others doing the same with "Fascist"? The shit pile gets so deep, then there the assholes that want to ramp up this kind of shit and exalt in the violence that results. Fuck that. I've seen a lot of violence and it's effects. It's not something that should be seen as a "boy howdy do I hope it gets there soon so we X can kill all them Y" but all these internet tough guys seem to sing that song here loud and long. Even when violence is necessary, it should not be glorified (but neither should those that are required to take such actions be shamed, at least not from the necessary act--if they then act like assholes about it, then address that). Beyond that, so many in this place have embrace wacko extreme right conspiracy theories without any question that it's sickening even as they complain about the left wing nutters. So, I have now come to accept that this place is utterly full of shit, will always be full of shit, and there's no reason I shouldn't just dump on every stupid motherfucker here too.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 04:42:39 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1142223
I'm not a doctor and so I'm not saying anything definitively about what medicine you should or shouldn't take. However, I would strongly recommend against taking *any* prescription medicine without it being prescribed by your doctor. Almost any medicine can have major side effects, particularly if not taken in exactly prescribed dosages. From what I read, hydroxychloroquine has heart rhythm side effects among others. In the FDA released report, they included some specific details of the side effects:



Source: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/2020/OSE%20Review_Hydroxychloroquine-Cholorquine%20-%2019May2020_Redacted.pdf

If you have a doctor you trust who prescribes it, then please listen to them.

No shit, No one has suggested otherwise.


Quote
I can't personally confirm about her claims either way, but it's the choice of particular news agencies how they want to handle it. I do think that uncorroborated medical advice is extremely sensitive and can potentially be dangerous, so sites should be wary when deciding about if and how to present such material. For example, Breitbart had originally shared the 40-minute video, but they have now stopped and released a new article which covers more about Immanuel's other beliefs alongside the HCQ claims.

https://www.breitbart.com/news/aliens-and-reptilians-us-viral-video-doctors-odd-beliefs/

Is Breitbart engaging in censorship? I think they're choosing what to report and pass on, which is what responsible news outlets do.

Huh. I don't consider Breitbart very responsible. I think they've devolved into a shock consertavive rag since Andrew Breitbart died.

No comments about my follow up post? Can we stop gawking at the strange-o doctor lady that people are using as a smokescreen?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on July 29, 2020, 08:34:54 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142224
What I'm talking about is that so many people here just want to spout their political bullshit and want to view every fucking conversation as thought the politics of it matter more than anything else. So much fucking us/them thinking and no self-reflection on it. I mean really, how the fuck does it help to fling the term "Marxist" around so easily yet object others doing the same with "Fascist"? The shit pile gets so deep, then there the assholes that want to ramp up this kind of shit and exalt in the violence that results. Fuck that. I've seen a lot of violence and it's effects. It's not something that should be seen as a "boy howdy do I hope it gets there soon so we X can kill all them Y" but all these internet tough guys seem to sing that song here loud and long. Even when violence is necessary, it should not be glorified (but neither should those that are required to take such actions be shamed, at least not from the necessary act--if they then act like assholes about it, then address that). Beyond that, so many in this place have embrace wacko extreme right conspiracy theories without any question that it's sickening even as they complain about the left wing nutters. So, I have now come to accept that this place is utterly full of shit, will always be full of shit, and there's no reason I shouldn't just dump on every stupid motherfucker here too.

That wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a full court press to hide and/or highly selectively edit any news that the left media complex considers against their narrative.   It's a bit rich to be demanding facts and science all the time while that is going on, because now there aren't many sources that you can trust. Even when you do get a hold of the original source, unfiltered by the media, you don't know what else it out there that they are suppressing.

Basically, the left has decided that the way to win any argument--including ones on policy supposedly based on science--is to not have the argument.  They get to say what they want, and everyone else's views are discredited by whatever means necessary.  You can scream about what that does to discussion all you want, but that's the nature of the beast right now.  Your ire is directed at the wrong target, blaming the people for not giving into this pathetic state of affairs instead of the people causing it.

Maybe we need to start "reclaiming our time".
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2020, 11:02:19 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1142223
Absolutely! If there is corroboration of the claims, then the data should definitely be considered together with other studies of hydroxychloroquine effectiveness. I'd particularly be curious to see about the ages of the patients, since Dr. Immanuel is listed as a pediatrician in HealthGrades. If the 350 patients are all pediatric, then full recovery isn't unusual since the mortality rate for children is extremely low even without treatment. But if the 350 are elderly, then it's much more significant. Without that data, though, it's hard to tell anything.

There have been a number of published studies on hydroxychloroquine effectiveness, but as far as I know, it's still lacking a controlled double-blind test. There was a recent Nature paper on treatment using it:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41419-020-2721-8

The conclusion was:



From this, it sounds like there's potential but more study and especially a double-blind trial is warranted.



I'm not a doctor and so I'm not saying anything definitively about what medicine you should or shouldn't take. However, I would strongly recommend against taking *any* prescription medicine without it being prescribed by your doctor. Almost any medicine can have major side effects, particularly if not taken in exactly prescribed dosages. From what I read, hydroxychloroquine has heart rhythm side effects among others. In the FDA released report, they included some specific details of the side effects:



Source: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/2020/OSE%20Review_Hydroxychloroquine-Cholorquine%20-%2019May2020_Redacted.pdf

If you have a doctor you trust who prescribes it, then please listen to them.



I can't personally confirm about her claims either way, but it's the choice of particular news agencies how they want to handle it. I do think that uncorroborated medical advice is extremely sensitive and can potentially be dangerous, so sites should be wary when deciding about if and how to present such material. For example, Breitbart had originally shared the 40-minute video, but they have now stopped and released a new article which covers more about Immanuel's other beliefs alongside the HCQ claims.

https://www.breitbart.com/news/aliens-and-reptilians-us-viral-video-doctors-odd-beliefs/

Is Breitbart engaging in censorship? I think they're choosing what to report and pass on, which is what responsible news outlets do.

Regarding masks, in March, I heard constant calls that masks and other PPE were desperately needed for health care workers. People were trying to organize to home sew masks to send to hospitals and clinics. I have a good friend who is an emergency room doctor, and she talked about the issues at her hospital. In the sources I read, the experts were quite clear about this. I had three N95 masks that I considered donating, but the package was already opened, so I didn't think they'd be accepted. It seems to me that many people improperly concluded from "Masks are desperately needed by health care workers" that "Masks aren't useful for anyone but health care workers."

In any case, wearing masks is a public health issue which is different than medical advice. Personally, I'd already been wearing a mask in February since I was in South Korea at the time. There, it was already common for people to wear masks, even before covid-19. I continued to use a mask upon coming back to the U.S.

As I understand it there are some serious ethical issues revolving around using patients in a double-blind study like this. I'm not saying you're wrong -- the more data we gather, the better -- but there may be complications with giving one patient what might be a cure versus NOT giving it to another.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 29, 2020, 11:27:00 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142224
What I'm talking about is that so many people here just want to spout their political bullshit and want to view every fucking conversation as thought the politics of it matter more than anything else. So much fucking us/them thinking and no self-reflection on it. I mean really, how the fuck does it help to fling the term "Marxist" around so easily yet object others doing the same with "Fascist"? The shit pile gets so deep, then there the assholes that want to ramp up this kind of shit and exalt in the violence that results. Fuck that. I've seen a lot of violence and it's effects. It's not something that should be seen as a "boy howdy do I hope it gets there soon so we X can kill all them Y" but all these internet tough guys seem to sing that song here loud and long. Even when violence is necessary, it should not be glorified (but neither should those that are required to take such actions be shamed, at least not from the necessary act--if they then act like assholes about it, then address that). Beyond that, so many in this place have embrace wacko extreme right conspiracy theories without any question that it's sickening even as they complain about the left wing nutters. So, I have now come to accept that this place is utterly full of shit, will always be full of shit, and there's no reason I shouldn't just dump on every stupid motherfucker here too.

Tell us how you really feel.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: TNMalt on July 29, 2020, 12:33:50 PM
Part of the reason South Korea has done as well us due to people wearing masks. And here in the US  folks in states like Florida are dying due to the state government screwing things up. The president hawking bleach and drugs that may not do anything isn't helping.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on July 29, 2020, 01:34:01 PM
Quote from: TNMalt;1142246
Part of the reason South Korea has done as well us due to people wearing masks. And here in the US  folks in states like Florida are dying due to the state government screwing things up. The president hawking bleach and drugs that may not do anything isn't helping.

Idiots spreading fake news isn't helping.  But here we are anyway.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 29, 2020, 01:39:19 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1142223
There have been a number of published studies on hydroxychloroquine effectiveness, but as far as I know, it's still lacking a controlled double-blind test.


That's because most doctors consider it unethical to NOT treat their patients!  (To give sick patients placebos.)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 29, 2020, 01:47:43 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1142247
Idiots spreading fake news isn't helping.  But here we are anyway.

Well then, idiot, stop being here spreading fake news.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on July 29, 2020, 02:00:32 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142249
Well then, idiot, stop being here spreading fake news.

TNMalt made a completely political, idiotic statement that directly went against the behavior you said you wanted on this discussion.  Don't see you calling him out on pushing a political narrative without regard to facts.  He hasn't said anything useful here, ever, so onto my ignore list he went.  Would you like to join him?  

I made a substantial response to your earlier statement, but you thought my response to him needed something from you?  You are rapidly approaching the point where I don't believe what you are saying about anything.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2020, 02:04:02 PM
Quote from: TNMalt;1142246
Part of the reason South Korea has done as well us due to people wearing masks. And here in the US  folks in states like Florida are dying due to the state government screwing things up. The president hawking bleach and drugs that may not do anything isn't helping.

https://issuesinsights.com/2020/07/27/florida-is-a-case-study-in-media-induced-covid-19-panic/

Remember, there is a difference between 'reported' and 'occurred'. And when someone seeks to blur the lines, you might wonder why.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 29, 2020, 02:16:52 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1142251
TNMalt made a completely political, idiotic statement that directly went against the behavior you said you wanted on this discussion.  Don't see you calling him out on pushing a political narrative without regard to facts.  He hasn't said anything useful here, ever, so onto my ignore list he went.  Would you like to join him?  

I made a substantial response to your earlier statement, but you thought my response to him needed something from you?  You are rapidly approaching the point where I don't believe what you are saying about anything.

I've told nothing but the truth, but I don't give a shit what the fuck you or anyone else in this fucking dumpster fire of a site thinks anymore. Ignore me, bitch. I don't care.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: TNMalt;1142246
Part of the reason South Korea has done as well us due to people wearing masks. And here in the US  folks in states like Florida are dying due to the state government screwing things up. The president hawking bleach and drugs that may not do anything isn't helping.

Part of the reason why so many people in the US are resistant to wearing masks is because so many "authorities" have blatantly lied to them about it in march.
People don't trust "authorities" that lie to them for some odd reason.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on July 29, 2020, 02:44:57 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142254
I've told nothing but the truth, but I don't give a shit what the fuck you or anyone else in this fucking dumpster fire of a site thinks anymore. Ignore me, bitch. I don't care.

Oh, so you are "reclaiming your time".  Thought so.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 29, 2020, 02:55:58 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142255
Part of the reason why so many people in the US are resistant to wearing masks is because so many "authorities" have blatantly lied to them about it in march.
People don't trust "authorities" that lie to them for some odd reason.

It's interesting that not a single study existed about the effectiveness of mask wearing versus airborne viruses like the flu or cold.
And yet there are now 7 studies showing the therapeutic affects of HCQ for early treatment.
Still the "authorities" are claiming the former to be effective and the latter to be bullshit.




It's already been criticized by Harvard medical school and others.

[**] The study is based onhistorical data of health professionals who have contracted flu.  No control group.  Critics were rebuffed by authors stating it would be unethical to expose health care workers to the flu for the purposes of an actual study.  Sound familiar.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 29, 2020, 03:05:09 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142254
I've told nothing but the truth, but I don't give a shit what the fuck you or anyone else in this fucking dumpster fire of a site thinks anymore. Ignore me, bitch. I don't care.

So why bother posting..? Serious question.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 03:05:49 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1142259
It's interesting that not a single study existed about the effectiveness of mask wearing versus airborne viruses like the flu or cold.

And yet there are now 7 studies showing the therapeutic affects of HCQ for early treatment.
Still the "authorities" are claiming the former to be effective and the latter to be bullshit.



  • Because of this someone just published a meta data study on masks[**] to the Lancet claiming they are effective. How convenient.

It's already been criticized by Harvard medical school and others.

[**] The study is based onhistorical data of health professionals who have contracted flu.  No control group.  Critics were rebuffed by authors stating it would be unethical to expose health care workers to the flu for the purposes of an actual study.  Sound familiar.

Yep. God, it's not like I'm even denying Covid exists, or that we shouldn't wear masks.
It's that the news and authorities are often flying by the seat of their pants on this issue, and it certainly doesn't help that the political parties are using the situation to make hay.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on July 29, 2020, 03:06:44 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142254
I've told nothing but the truth, but I don't give a shit what the fuck you or anyone else in this fucking dumpster fire of a site thinks anymore. Ignore me, bitch. I don't care.

I started this thread in part to get the whole topic off the main board where it (mostly) doesn't belong and in part to hear more about your "frontline" experiences of all this. I hope you'll keep doing that. Not everyone here is all about deep conspiracies.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on July 29, 2020, 03:12:47 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1142263
I started this thread in part to get the whole topic off the main board where it (mostly) doesn't belong and in part to hear more about your "frontline" experiences of all this. I hope you'll keep doing that. Not everyone here is all about deep conspiracies.

No one here is about "deep conspiracies".  That implies something hidden and subtle.  This is outright censorship and propaganda.  That there may be some factual useful bits mixed in with the noise is almost unavoidable given the volume.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on July 29, 2020, 03:15:09 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142262
It's that the news and authorities are often flying by the seat of their pants on this issue

Yes indeed, I think that's been true from the get-go. I think in time, the post-game analysis will be full of what we did right, what we did wrong, what we did in time and what we did a little too late. Until then, we're flying by the seat of our pants and somewhat in the dark.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 29, 2020, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: Brad;1142261
So why bother posting..? Serious question.

Because I can vent shit at assholes like you. It's all you fucking do, so why not swim in the same shit as you and the other CS nutters here?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on July 29, 2020, 03:34:48 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142262
Yep. God, it's not like I'm even denying Covid exists, or that we shouldn't wear masks.
It's that the news and authorities are often flying by the seat of their pants on this issue, and it certainly doesn't help that the political parties are using the situation to make hay.

Greetings!

I agree, Ratman. There is a virus going on, but there is a whole lot of bullshit being pushed along with it. I think it is interesting that poltical worldviews seem to play heavily into how ordinary Americans respond to the virus. Liberals are all in favour of *mandatory* mask wearing, want people to shut up and don't question the narrative, have everything locked down, and wait for a vaccine. Conservatives, on the other hand, favour people being free to choose whether or not to wear a mask, and favour an open economy and society, and embrace questioning the official narrative.

There's been studies and polls done which reflect this dynamic, specifically concerning the virus and the government and authorities response to the virus.

I'm also skeptical because the story keeps changing, the goal posts keep being moved, and the Liberal's response seems to just boil down to "Wear a mask, shut up, and wait for a vaccine while everything is locked down!"

I just cannot accept that response to the virus. Fuck that, you know? I'm not doing it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 03:37:07 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1142266
Yes indeed, I think that's been true from the get-go. I think in time, the post-game analysis will be full of what we did right, what we did wrong, what we did in time and what we did a little too late. Until then, we're flying by the seat of our pants and somewhat in the dark.

It's a scary place to be. I think the "other side" of the mask issue is so rabid because they want to be reassured that a piece of cloth on their face will make them immune to being infected.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 29, 2020, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142273
It's a scary place to be. I think the "other side" of the mask issue is so rabid because they want to be reassured that a piece of cloth on their face will make them immune to being infected.

Repeat after me: the masks don't work that way! They ARE face diapers. They stop the shit the wearer exhales from traveling as far. They don't work like a fucking chastity belt and stop COVID from mouth/nose fucking the wearer. That's what a goddamed respirator is for, but most people are too fucking uniformed to know the difference. No, wearing a mask is to protect other people, and the fucking assholes that don't care about other (vulnerable) people are the types of shitheads that don't wear masks.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 29, 2020, 04:05:14 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142269
Because I can vent shit at assholes like you. It's all you fucking do, so why not swim in the same shit as you and the other CS nutters here?

Why you mad, bro? Maybe get some mental help.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1142276
Repeat after me: the masks don't work that way! They ARE face diapers. They stop the shit the wearer exhales from traveling as far. They don't work like a fucking chastity belt and stop COVID from mouth/nose fucking the wearer. That's what a goddamed respirator is for, but most people are too fucking uniformed to know the difference. No, wearing a mask is to protect other people, and the fucking assholes that don't care about other (vulnerable) people are the types of shitheads that don't wear masks.

No mask crew.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 29, 2020, 04:08:24 PM
Sweden now:
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/NINTCHDBPICT000596156082-1.jpg)
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/NINTCHDBPICT000596156084-1.jpg)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 29, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
Quote from: Brad;1142279
Why you mad, bro? Maybe get some mental help.


Not mad at all, you ignorant cocksucker; I'm just swimming in the pool everyone else pisses in, so why not take a dump too?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 29, 2020, 04:14:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142276
No, wearing a mask is to protect other people, and the fucking assholes that don't care about other (vulnerable) people are the types of shitheads that don't wear masks.

If you're one of the vulnerables stay the hell in your basement.
 - signed asshole shithead DocJones

Or come out prepared...
(https://library.cofc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/bubbleboy-toiletpaper.jpg)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on July 29, 2020, 04:19:14 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1142273
It's a scary place to be. I think the "other side" of the mask issue is so rabid because they want to be reassured that a piece of cloth on their face will make them immune to being infected.

I like how the response to your comment about other people being ignorant of how the masks work (or not) reframes it to pretend that you don't know how the mask is supposed to work.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: TNMalt on July 29, 2020, 04:25:06 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1142251
TNMalt made a completely political, idiotic statement that directly went against the behavior you said you wanted on this discussion.  Don't see you calling him out on pushing a political narrative without regard to facts.  He hasn't said anything useful here, ever, so onto my ignore list he went.  Would you like to join him?  

I made a substantial response to your earlier statement, but you thought my response to him needed something from you?  You are rapidly approaching the point where I don't believe what you are saying about anything.


I don't have anyone on my ignore list as I pee standing up. Also, putting someone on ignore is such a beta move. Only a beta cuck soy boy would do tha.t
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 29, 2020, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1142286
I like how the response to your comment about other people being ignorant of how the masks work (or not) reframes it to pretend that you don't know how the mask is supposed to work.


That's my entire objection to wearing one, and I refuse to as a form of protest. All of the sudden, masks save lives...Fraudci "reframed" the whole "masks don't do anything" to "we told people not to wear masks in March so we'd get them to doctors". He admitted to lying then (and if masks work, should be held accountable for the deaths of US citizens), so why should I believe him now? Of course, questioning the reasons behind any of these stupid orders just gets you screeched at and called an ignorant rube. You are NOT allowed to think for yourself whatsoever.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 29, 2020, 04:31:24 PM
Serious question: What exactly is a "CS nutter" and how do you know if you yourself or someone else is part of the "CS nutters"?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 29, 2020, 04:32:29 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142294
Serious question: What exactly is a "CS nutter" and how do you know if you yourself or someone else is part of the "CS nutters"?

I always thought it was CT (conspiracy theory), but what do I know...

Anyway, someone is a "CT nutter" if they don't blindly follow the edicts of un-elected bureaucrats.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on July 29, 2020, 05:14:49 PM
Quote from: Brad;1142293
That's my entire objection to wearing one, and I refuse to as a form of protest. All of the sudden, masks save lives...Fraudci "reframed" the whole "masks don't do anything" to "we told people not to wear masks in March so we'd get them to doctors". He admitted to lying then (and if masks work, should be held accountable for the deaths of US citizens), so why should I believe him now? Of course, questioning the reasons behind any of these stupid orders just gets you screeched at and called an ignorant rube. You are NOT allowed to think for yourself whatsoever.

Yeah.  I'll wear one basically to make other people feel more comfortable, even though for me it really doesn't make much sense most of the time.  (I'm almost quarantined as it is, not having a lot of contact with much of anyone.)  That is, the chances that I've even been exposed are vanishingly small.  Sooner or later, I'll probably get it, because sooner or later everyone is going to get it.  It's really no skin off my nose either way.  The funny thing is that I get the flip side of what you are saying, in that people just assume because I'm not making a big stink about the mask, that I think it is necessary.

My own doctor is more hardline than I am on this.  I'm only paraphrasing (e.g. not speaking for him on this public forum), but his general idea is that for people that don't have any of the complicating factors (elderly, diabetes, etc.), if we are all going to get it eventually, getting it in the middle of the summer would be better than the middle of this winter.  That doesn't mean that people should be running out trying to get infected, but at a time when you getting plenty of sun, more exercise, immune system is in better shape, and so forth, is better than getting blindsided.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 29, 2020, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1142300
Yeah.  I'll wear one basically to make other people feel more comfortable, even though for me it really doesn't make much sense most of the time.  (I'm almost quarantined as it is, not having a lot of contact with much of anyone.)  That is, the chances that I've even been exposed are vanishingly small.  Sooner or later, I'll probably get it, because sooner or later everyone is going to get it.  It's really no skin off my nose either way.  The funny thing is that I get the flip side of what you are saying, in that people just assume because I'm not making a big stink about the mask, that I think it is necessary.

My state/town has an order in place that you have to wear one when you "can't maintain 6' of distance", and all the businesses have signs about it being mandatory. If you actually read the order, it's worded in such a way that it's entirely voluntary. Hence, they know it's not legally enforceable but want you to believe it is. Whatever...I went to lunch today at a local Mexican place, no mask, no one said shit to me, and no one even cared. The waitress had one, but I think that was to avoid notice from code enforcement, not because she thought it was effective. If she had asked me to wear one as I walked in, I would have done so as a courtesy to the restaurant, NOT because I was adhering to some illegal, unenforceable mandate. I have yet to make any stink about it at all because so far everyone has been very reasonable about it. If it REALLY is to protect other people, then why aren't the most vulnerable people staying at home? I see lots of old people who literally DGAF, hence I figure if they don't care, why should I? They're the ones that will get sick from this crap, not me.

Quote
My own doctor is more hardline than I am on this.  I'm only paraphrasing (e.g. not speaking for him on this public forum), but his general idea is that for people that don't have any of the complicating factors (elderly, diabetes, etc.), if we are all going to get it eventually, getting it in the middle of the summer would be better than the middle of this winter.  That doesn't mean that people should be running out trying to get infected, but at a time when you getting plenty of sun, more exercise, immune system is in better shape, and so forth, is better than getting blindsided.

Well, that was the original plan, wasn't it? Make sure the hospitals could accommodate the surge of patients, wait it out a bit, then just assume everyone would get the virus but we'd be able to deal with it effectively. That morphed into a literal fascist lockdown where people are being sent to jail for daring to open their businesses. I live in one of the hottest parts of the country, I work out constantly (the gyms reopening really helped my mental health...), am under the age to start worrying, and take my vitamins and eat well. My risk factor is like zero. My dad is in his 70s and had a knee operation and has a history of high blood pressure, but he told me he doesn't give a fuck about this stuff because, I quote, "I saw a lot worse shit in Nam." He was a field medic, and was a nurse for years after he retired, so if he isn't worried I don't think I should be, either.

Is the virus real? Yes. Is it deadly for a certain group of people? Yes. The same people who would die from a severe flu season, though, so why the fuck we're treating it like the black plague amazes me.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 07:06:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142282
Not mad at all, you ignorant cocksucker; I'm just swimming in the pool everyone else pisses in, so why not take a dump too?

Get over yourself.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 07:07:37 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142294
Serious question: What exactly is a "CS nutter" and how do you know if you yourself or someone else is part of the "CS nutters"?

I assumed it was Coalition States. Skulls out for Human Supremacy!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 07:09:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142276
Repeat after me: the masks don't work that way! They ARE face diapers. They stop the shit the wearer exhales from traveling as far. They don't work like a fucking chastity belt and stop COVID from mouth/nose fucking the wearer. That's what a goddamed respirator is for, but most people are too fucking uniformed to know the difference. No, wearing a mask is to protect other people, and the fucking assholes that don't care about other (vulnerable) people are the types of shitheads that don't wear masks.


Is that why people wore masks with vents?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 29, 2020, 07:31:14 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1142286
I like how the response to your comment about other people being ignorant of how the masks work (or not) reframes it to pretend that you don't know how the mask is supposed to work.
....

;)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 29, 2020, 07:44:33 PM
Dr. Fauci endorses Tinder hookups 'if you're willing to take a risk'  (https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/fauci-endorses-tinder-hookups-with-a-caveat/)
Shaking hands should be verboten.  

LOL
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on July 29, 2020, 08:16:20 PM
It is interesting looking back at what happened during the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic.  There was the same anti-mask movement at that time so that makes it hard to blame on the current climate.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on July 30, 2020, 04:33:37 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1142313
It is interesting looking back at what happened during the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic.  There was the same anti-mask movement at that time so that makes it hard to blame on the current climate.

Plus ca change, as they say!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 30, 2020, 08:18:06 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1142313
It is interesting looking back at what happened during the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic.  There was the same anti-mask movement at that time so that makes it hard to blame on the current climate.

I suspect part of it is in our psyche. We are visually oriented, and are wired to see faces (sometimes when one doesn't actually exist; the man in the moon, or the infamous face on Mars). Disrupting that with a mask automatically puts us on guard.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 30, 2020, 12:19:42 PM
The CDC/NIH have been funding research on vaccines for HIV for 35 years.
Does anyone actually believe there will be a vaccine for the China flu a few months?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on July 30, 2020, 12:21:13 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1142370
The CDC/NIH have been funding research on vaccines for HIV for 35 years.
Does anyone actually believe there will be a vaccine for the China flu a few months?

Through the power of alien DNA and the ejaculate of spirit rapists, our reptilian overlords already have a solution!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 30, 2020, 12:28:47 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1142370
The CDC/NIH have been funding research on vaccines for HIV for 35 years.
Does anyone actually believe there will be a vaccine for the China flu a few months?

Retrovirus vs a flu virus, not the same thing.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on July 30, 2020, 12:54:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142374
Retrovirus vs a flu virus, not the same thing.

Flu virus is not the same thing as a coronavirus
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 30, 2020, 01:15:22 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1142379
Flu virus is not the same thing as a coronavirus


True that.  How are those MERS and SARS vaccines coming along?
There are some who suggest lockdowns should continue until a vaccine is found.
That's irrationally optimistic and perhaps dangerous to the public health in the long term.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 30, 2020, 01:18:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142371
Through the power of alien DNA and the ejaculate of spirit rapists, our reptilian overlords already have a solution!


No. I don't trust Bill Gates either. ;-)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 30, 2020, 01:28:33 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1142380
True that.  How are those MERS and SARS vaccines coming along?
There are some who suggest lockdowns should continue until a vaccine is found.
That's irrationally optimistic and perhaps dangerous to the public health in the long term.

If someone wants to keep the lockdowns until a working vaccine is found that someone is a fuckwad, there's no permanent vaccine vs flu virus, they mutate too easy, sooner or latter (and I hope it's sooner) people and governments are gonna have to come to terms that the lockdowns will cause more deaths and suffering than the Kung-Flu.

Hell even the useless ONU is already warning of this, people die from disease, not always we can do anything to prevent this, and when we can we, sometimes, shouldn't because the cure is worst than the disease.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on July 30, 2020, 01:54:51 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1142370
The CDC/NIH have been funding research on vaccines for HIV for 35 years.
Does anyone actually believe there will be a vaccine for the China flu a few months?


Apples and oranges. HIV is an entirely different critter than SARS-CoV.

That being said, the sturm und drang over chloroquine (particularly considering the 2005 study which found it effective versus SARS) makes me damned suspicious that someone's got stock in Remdesivir.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on July 30, 2020, 03:53:26 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142390
Apples and oranges. HIV is an entirely different critter than SARS-CoV.

That being said, the sturm und drang over chloroquine (particularly considering the 2005 study which found it effective versus SARS) makes me damned suspicious that someone's got stock in Remdesivir.

I mentioned HIV and MERS and SARS to make the point that a "vaccine is right around the corner" is a lie.
Ohio banned HCQ for China flu immediately following the release of the aformentioned video. WTF!?!
Today they unbanned it at the request of the governor and much blowback by doctors.
It's all very very much suspicious.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 30, 2020, 03:54:06 PM
Anyone care to explain this?

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/yale-epidemiologist-accuses-fauci-running-disinformation-campaign

EDIT: ^^^you posted right as I did...yeah, this is total nonsense. Fraudci is a total tool.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on July 30, 2020, 05:39:34 PM
I would cite President Trump on this, from the White House site.

Quote
Q: On that note, Mr. President, last night, in tweets that were deleted by Twitter, you said that Dr. Fauci misled the country about hydroxychloroquine.  How so?

THE PRESIDENT:  No, not at all.  I think -- I don't even know what his stance is on it.  I -- I was just -- you know, he was at the -- he was at the task force meeting a little while ago.

I have a very good relationship with Dr. Fauci.  You know, it's sort of interesting -- we've listened to Dr. Fauci.  I haven't always agreed with him, and it's, I think, pretty standard.  That's okay.  He did not want us to ban our -- this -- this -- put up the ban to China, when China was heavily infected -- very badly, Wuhan.  He didn't want to do that, and I did and other things.  And he told me I was right, and he told me I saved tens of thousands of lives, which was generous, but it's -- you know, I think it's fact that I banned -- I did the ban on Europe.  But I get along with him very well and I agree with a lot of what he's said.

So -- you know, it's interesting: He's got a very good approval rating, and I like that.  It's good.  Because remember, he's working for this administration.  He's working with us, John.  We could have gotten other people.  We could have gotten somebody else.  It didn't have to be Dr. Fauci.  He's working with our administration.  And, for the most part, we've done pretty much what he and others -- Dr. Birx and others, who are terrific -- recommended.


Source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-press-briefing-july-28-2020/

So at least Trump is continuing to support and recommend him.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on July 30, 2020, 06:38:26 PM
10,000 extra children dead per month due to the stupid response to the Kung-Flu, but hey, those don't count as hating granma right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/virus-linked-hunger-tied-to-10000-child-deaths-each-month/2020/07/27/84d349ca-d059-11ea-826b-cc394d824e35_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/virus-linked-hunger-tied-to-10000-child-deaths-each-month/2020/07/27/84d349ca-d059-11ea-826b-cc394d824e35_story.html)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on July 31, 2020, 06:24:58 AM
No, Covid-19 is not caused by a flu virus (although for some reason some people insist on pretending it is), nor is it a retrovirus. Completely different beast.

But it's true, we don't have a stellar record with coronavirus vaccines.

Common cold is caused by coronaviruses. No vaccine ever, despite fairly significant efforts in the past.

SARS -1 and MERS: no vaccine, although I understand a SARS vaccine was close to rollout but the outbreak ended so it was never deployed.

So if we get a Covid-19 vaccine it will be, I believe, our first ever coronavirus vaccine. One positive sign is that Covid-19 seems to be very slow to mutate, which may improve our chances of success.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on July 31, 2020, 09:38:30 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1142421
I would cite President Trump on this, from the White House site.



Source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-press-briefing-july-28-2020/

So at least Trump is continuing to support and recommend him.


Trump is treating Fraudci exactly as he should: an expert in the field of epidemiology. That has nothing to do with public policy; people voted for Trump, not Fraudci. Just because some expert says something doesn't mean we should do whatever he says. That's why the US is in this mess...those CDC experts were salivating at the fact all their years of work were coming to fruition and there was a real pandemic they could study. That resulted in some of the dumbest fucking possible decisions we've seen in 50 years.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142423
10,000 extra children dead per month due to the stupid response to the Kung-Flu, but hey, those don't count as hating granma right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/virus-linked-hunger-tied-to-10000-child-deaths-each-month/2020/07/27/84d349ca-d059-11ea-826b-cc394d824e35_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/virus-linked-hunger-tied-to-10000-child-deaths-each-month/2020/07/27/84d349ca-d059-11ea-826b-cc394d824e35_story.html)


African children don't count, and in fact it'd be better if they were all dead. Just ask Bill Gates!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 01, 2020, 03:36:09 AM
Are people still buying all this "new normal" bollocks, that we should change the way we live for the sake of a virus that isn't all that deadly and is receding?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 01, 2020, 07:04:11 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142276
No, wearing a mask is to protect other people, and the fucking assholes that don't care about other (vulnerable) people are the types of shitheads that don't wear masks.


Categorically not interested. The only people I give a fuck about are my children. Everyone else can look after themselves, if you're a grown up, you are responsible for yourself. I owe you no obligation whatsoever.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on August 01, 2020, 07:55:27 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1142644
Categorically not interested. The only people I give a fuck about are my children. Everyone else can look after themselves, if you're a grown up, you are responsible for yourself. I owe you no obligation whatsoever.

Actually, if you are driving a vehicle (and in many other situations), you owe a duty of care to others - even if they're not your progeny. That's the law anyway, so good luck with your "F the rest of you" stance if you're involved in an accident! :-) Are you an anti-vaxxer? Or do you think they're idiots? Because your attitude is identical to the anti-vaxxers.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 01, 2020, 09:32:59 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1142632
Are people still buying all this "new normal" bollocks, that we should change the way we live for the sake of a virus that isn't all that deadly and is receding?


The "new normal" lie is still being promoted heavily. "Back to the old normal" is being promoted almost as heavily. The "old normal" is dead and gone; there's no going back. And we are nowhere close to "new normal" yet, which means no one knows what "new normal" is going to be.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 01, 2020, 10:57:07 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1142644
Categorically not interested. The only people I give a fuck about are my children. Everyone else can look after themselves, if you're a grown up, you are responsible for yourself. I owe you no obligation whatsoever.

OK dumbfuck, do you wear pants? That's an obligation in the civilized world. Do you routinely yell out "Fire" in public places? No? Must be some sort of belief in the rules of civilization even if you're too much of an asshat to realize it.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 01, 2020, 11:00:18 AM
Quote from: spon;1142645
Actually, if you are driving a vehicle (and in many other situations), you owe a duty of care to others - even if they're not your progeny. That's the law anyway, so good luck with your "F the rest of you" stance if you're involved in an accident! :-) Are you an anti-vaxxer? Or do you think they're idiots? Because your attitude is identical to the anti-vaxxers.
I'm going to take a short break from being an asshole to thank you for posting a reasonable response to a fuckwit. I've given up hope, but I'm glad to see that others have not.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 01, 2020, 11:01:17 AM
Quote from: spon;1142645
Actually, if you are driving a vehicle (and in many other situations), you owe a duty of care to others - even if they're not your progeny. That's the law anyway, so good luck with your "F the rest of you" stance if you're involved in an accident! :-) Are you an anti-vaxxer? Or do you think they're idiots? Because your attitude is identical to the anti-vaxxers.

He can talk out of his ass all he wants. No mask no service period. So he can try the tough guy bullshit all he likes he won't be served in most public places like restaurant and stores. Hope his family and him can survive without food and water. Sure their is Amazon hope it arrives on time.

Quote from: RandyB;1142649
The "new normal" lie is still being promoted heavily. "Back to the old normal" is being promoted almost as heavily. The "old normal" is dead and gone; there's no going back. And we are nowhere close to "new normal" yet, which means no one knows what "new normal" is going to be.

I have taken to calling it the altered normal state of things. I still got to the corner store to shop for food I wear a mask. I don't shame people for not wearing masks though I do stand up for store employees  when assholes clearly disregard the rules. I use sanitizer when entering and leaving a store either usually the one offered at stores or my own. Makes sure to wash my hands and keep my home clean. Ignore and all coronaidiots whether they be family or friends. If you want to take a risk and think your immortal and immune more power to you except your dead to me until you take basic hygiene procedures
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on August 01, 2020, 11:08:16 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142665
I'm going to take a short break from being an asshole to thank you for posting a reasonable response to a fuckwit. I've given up hope, but I'm glad to see that others have not.


Be careful.  You don't want to wrench your shoulder patting yourself on the back for not being an asshole to someone who actually agrees with the garbage dribbling out of your mouth.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 01, 2020, 11:10:26 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142665
I'm going to take a short break from being an asshole to thank you for posting a reasonable response to a fuckwit. I've given up hope, but I'm glad to see that others have not.

Greetings!

I have to confess, HappyDaze, I much prefer the intelligent, reasonable, good-natured and easy-going HappyDaze from before your recent transformation. The new HappyDaze seems angry, hostile, and bitter--seemingly with everyone. I believe that I have always been pleasant, fun, and respectful to you, HappyDaze. I have always thought we get along pretty good together, despite the occasional disagreement. There has been much we agree on together, and have fun with. I wish you only good things, HappyDaze, for you and your family. I don't like seeing my friend so angry and bitter.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 03, 2020, 05:19:17 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1142670
Greetings!

I have to confess, HappyDaze, I much prefer the intelligent, reasonable, good-natured and easy-going HappyDaze from before your recent transformation. The new HappyDaze seems angry, hostile, and bitter--seemingly with everyone. I believe that I have always been pleasant, fun, and respectful to you, HappyDaze. I have always thought we get along pretty good together, despite the occasional disagreement. There has been much we agree on together, and have fun with. I wish you only good things, HappyDaze, for you and your family. I don't like seeing my friend so angry and bitter.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I really think that being pleasant is just you playing a character around here. Sure, you have been pleasant enough, but really look at the shit you post. You carefully select very specific politically charged messages and feed the morons here their rage fuel. You often glorify violence, and you really push the us/them divide that the idiots embrace. And you do it all while staying cheerful and (largely) polite (i.e., staying in character).

It's really a shame that someone as educated and intelligent as you seem to be (and yes, I really appreciate your thoughtful gaming posts) doesn't realize or--more likely--doesn't care what the more ignorant fuckers here will do with what you put up. But then I remember that nothing here is real, and this is just you staying in character, or at least I will hope that's the case as otherwise you're a fucking monster.

And that's where I made a mistake: I've been trying to be genuine when posting in this shithole. Well, I've decided to play a new character here, something quite different from myself IRL. So don't worry about me, when I tell you to fuck right off for spewing hateful shit, it's just what my character would do.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 03, 2020, 08:27:06 AM
Shark do yourself a favor and don't feed the Troll. It's better for your sanity and well being in the long run.

The troll is acting like a child because he could not get his requested Echo chamber when it comes to a forum and now engaging in the Oppression Olympics!

Just let him post and ignore and move on.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2020, 08:27:23 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1142670
Greetings!

I have to confess, HappyDaze, I much prefer the intelligent, reasonable, good-natured and easy-going HappyDaze from before your recent transformation. The new HappyDaze seems angry, hostile, and bitter--seemingly with everyone. I believe that I have always been pleasant, fun, and respectful to you, HappyDaze. I have always thought we get along pretty good together, despite the occasional disagreement. There has been much we agree on together, and have fun with. I wish you only good things, HappyDaze, for you and your family. I don't like seeing my friend so angry and bitter.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Take note of how your conciliatory and friendly note is responded to here, Shark. He basically says 'If you don't agree with me, you're a monster'.

I'd say he lost his mask and now he's just polishing his bona fides before making a return to TBP.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 03, 2020, 08:37:19 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142927
Take note of how your conciliatory and friendly note is responded to here, Shark. He basically says 'If you don't agree with me, you're a monster'.

I'd say he lost his mask and now he's just polishing his bona fides before making a return to TBP.

It's nothing new really. So many come here when they get banned from TBP yet expect the same kind of echo chamber as TBP.

Then pull shit fits when they don't get it as well as engaging in Oppression Olympics worthy of a first place gold medal.

What did they expect a regressive, repressive leftist echo chamber style forum to the equivalent of mostly opposite of the first.

At this point the worst thing that can be done is to let them post and no longer engage as they crave the attention. Take that away and when it comes to this forum they have nothing.

Then when the go back tail between their legs, bent over backwards, bending the knee they can claim how evil and unfair the posters were at the rpgsite and engage in verbal masturbatory sessions with each other.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 03, 2020, 11:08:25 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1142934
It's nothing new really. So many come here when they get banned from TBP yet expect the same kind of echo chamber as TBP.

Then pull shit fits when they don't get it as well as engaging in Oppression Olympics worthy of a first place gold medal.

What did they expect a regressive, repressive leftist echo chamber style forum to the equivalent of mostly opposite of the first.

At this point the worst thing that can be done is to let them post and no longer engage as they crave the attention. Take that away and when it comes to this forum they have nothing.

Then when the go back tail between their legs, bent over backwards, bending the knee they can claim how evil and unfair the posters were at the rpgsite and engage in verbal masturbatory sessions with each other.

You pathetic fuck. You already have your hard right echo chamber. Deny if if you like shitstain, but I can see right through you. You assholes attack posters you don't like then want them cancelled when they tell you to fuck off. You're just like those that you hate. You're NPCs.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 03, 2020, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142927
Take note of how your conciliatory and friendly note is responded to here, Shark. He basically says 'If you don't agree with me, you're a monster'.

I'd say he lost his mask and now he's just polishing his bona fides before making a return to TBP.

Unfortunately, this is ALL too common now. Leftist freaking the fuck out over what are simple disagreements...it's kinda scary.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 03, 2020, 12:06:27 PM
Quote from: Brad;1142982
Unfortunately, this is ALL too common now. Leftist freaking the fuck out over what are simple disagreements...it's kinda scary.

It's funny to me that the assholes here can't even tell who's an "-ist" and who's not other than by just saying that everyone that disagrees with them must be some kind of "-ist" because it fits their NPC-based us/them narrative.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2020, 12:43:51 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142990
It's funny to me that the assholes here can't even tell who's an "-ist" and who's not other than by just saying that everyone that disagrees with them must be some kind of "-ist" because it fits their NPC-based us/them narrative.

Unlike you right?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1142974
You pathetic fuck. You already have your hard right echo chamber. Deny if if you like shitstain, but I can see right through you. You assholes attack posters you don't like then want them cancelled when they tell you to fuck off. You're just like those that you hate. You're NPCs.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 03, 2020, 12:49:36 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142994
Unlike you right?

Well, I'm new at being a raging, judgemental asshole, but seeing as you're  a subject matter expert, pehaps you'd like to give me some pointers?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 03, 2020, 01:02:59 PM
This is why I'm blackpilled. No matter where I look along the political spectrum, without fail I find people with beliefs that I find objectionable and unwillingness to imagine the perspectives of others. No only that, but I don't know what is and isn't moral anymore because everybody is demonizing their political opponents, rewriting history to suit their agenda, and denying accepted science and mathematics.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2020, 01:08:36 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142995
Well, I'm new at being a raging, judgemental asshole, but seeing as you're  a subject matter expert, pehaps you'd like to give me some pointers?


Yeah, because my comment wasn't about pointing how you are labeling everybody that disagrees with you ans -ist...

YES, I'm a raging judgemental asshole and proud of it, what I'm not is part of the far anything, and you seem to think that any disagreement with you is  proof the one disagreing with you is part of some far something.

But seeing that you are truly incapable of speaking like an adult do kindly go fuck your mother and father.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 03, 2020, 01:13:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143003
Yeah, because my comment wasn't about pointing how you are labeling everybody that disagrees with you ans -ist...

YES, I'm a raging judgemental asshole and proud of it, what I'm not is part of the far anything, and you seem to think that any disagreement with you is  proof the one disagreing with you is part of some far something.

But seeing that you are truly incapable of speaking like an adult do kindly go fuck your mother and father.

Is that how they do it in Mexico? Is what will help me level up?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2020, 01:17:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143005
Is that how they do it in Mexico? Is what will help me level up?

Yep, we constantly tell gringos with a white savior complex to go fuck themselves. Now go fuck yourself fucking gringo.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 03, 2020, 01:32:33 PM
Quote from: Kiero;1142644
Categorically not interested. The only people I give a fuck about are my children. Everyone else can look after themselves, if you're a grown up, you are responsible for yourself. I owe you no obligation whatsoever.


Okay Kiero I'm interested in how thus works for you. I imagine that you and your family interact with the rest of society at some point though I may be wrong. I can see that you're absolutely happy, possibly well chuffed, at people dying due to that interaction. Do you see any possible way that this may affect your life? Just say that you are a carrier but because of your awesome, and it is quite awesome, physique it doesn't affect you but you pass it on to the 50yr old asthmatic headmaster of your kids school. Is that possible in your island world?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 03, 2020, 01:32:44 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143006
Yep, we constantly tell gringos with a white savior complex to go fuck themselves. Now go fuck yourself fucking gringo.

Oh...I'm starting to see how that works. Wait, am I supposed to find "gringo" insulting. If so, I just can't. Especially not when you say it in such an adorable way. You're just so precious.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2020, 01:49:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143006
Yep, we constantly tell gringos with a white savior complex to go fuck themselves. Now go fuck yourself fucking gringo.

Saw that comin' a mile away. Poor HappyDaze. I'm surprised he hasn't slapped you onto his 'ignore' list.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2020, 01:56:47 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143018
Saw that comin' a mile away. Poor HappyDaze. I'm surprised he hasn't slapped you onto his 'ignore' list.

He's not very smart or mature.

Like all trolls ever.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2020, 02:10:12 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143022
He's not very smart or mature.

Like all trolls ever.

His loss. No spicy chicks from south of the border and no burritos for him :D

How is Mexico handling Covid, anyways? We're all about the conflicting requirements here (can't gather into groups but BLM riots are just fine, wear masks/don't wear masks/wear goggles, etc).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 03, 2020, 02:10:23 PM
Don't feed the troll I had a few responses to what he wrote why bother let him wallow in his Martyrdom while we can discuss and debate.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2020, 02:11:43 PM
Quote from: sureshot;1143026
Don't feed the troll I had a few responses to what he wrote why bother let him wallow in his Martyrdom while we can discuss and debate.

Relax, I'm chatting with the Bugle. No point in me talking to the troll, I'm on his ignore list anyways.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 03, 2020, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1142670
I have to confess, HappyDaze, I much prefer the intelligent, reasonable, good-natured and easy-going HappyDaze from before your recent transformation. The new HappyDaze seems angry, hostile, and bitter--seemingly with everyone. I believe that I have always been pleasant, fun, and respectful to you, HappyDaze. I have always thought we get along pretty good together, despite the occasional disagreement. There has been much we agree on together, and have fun with. I wish you only good things, HappyDaze, for you and your family. I don't like seeing my friend so angry and bitter.
SHARK, there have been times when you have been reasonable, good-natured, and easygoing. But increasingly, I find that you are posting only anger and bitterness (examples below), and I think it has been reflected in the rest of debate here, since you are a prolific and influential poster.


Quote from: SHARK
Fucking Leftists are Marxists and traitors. They should live in fear. There shall be no mercy for them when the time comes.
(Source) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42390-It-doesn-t-matter-if-you-don-t-like-leftists&p=1140945&viewfull=1#post1140945)

Quote from: SHARK
I am comfortable with embracing violence. The 2nd Amendment is real, and I am well prepared. I do not have any moral compunctions about doing that which is right. Some men you just can't reach! If some men cannot be reasoned with, then a Glock 45 in their mouth will have them seeing my point of view very quickly.
(Source) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42390-It-doesn-t-matter-if-you-don-t-like-leftists&p=1141016&viewfull=1#post1141016)

Quote from: SHARK;1141632
No, no. If you oppose BLM you must be an evil racist!:mad:

Fucking morons. Leftists just need to be strapped down and lobotomized, and sterilized.
(Source) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42335-BLM-Protester-Shoots-White-Woman-For-Saying-quot-All-Lives-Matter-quot&p=1141632&viewfull=1#post1141632)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2020, 02:26:23 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143025
His loss. No spicy chicks from south of the border and no burritos for him :D

How is Mexico handling Covid, anyways? We're all about the conflicting requirements here (can't gather into groups but BLM riots are just fine, wear masks/don't wear masks/wear goggles, etc).


Yep, his loss.

South of the Rio Grande we're handling things just peachy, turns out the "right wing / Neo-Liberal" "opposition" cries that our dearly beloved comrade leader El Presidente wants to become a dictator (I kind agree), and at the same time they cry he's not being more like Xi JingPooh.

Turns out in México (allegedly) the 75% of covid deaths are of 100% healthy people, which means one of three things:

There's something in Mexican's genetic makeup that makes us more susceptible to the virus.

There's a totally different strain of the virus in México

Or the numbers are being fudged to hurt the dearly beloved comrade Leader El Presidente.

I happen to know first hand of 2 out of 3 cases where the death was due to cancer/heart attack and the death certificate states COD as the KungFlu. The thid one had diabetes and got the China Virus and died.

Something is rotten in the state of México. if I may paraphrase the great playwright.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 03, 2020, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143033
Yep, his loss.

South of the Rio Grande we're handling things just peachy, turns out the "right wing / Neo-Liberal" "opposition" cries that our dearly beloved comrade leader El Presidente wants to become a dictator (I kind agree), and at the same time they cry he's not being more like Xi JingPooh.

Turns out in México (allegedly) the 75% of covid deaths are of 100% healthy people, which means one of three things:

There's something in Mexican's genetic makeup that makes us more susceptible to the virus.

There's a totally different strain of the virus in México

Or the numbers are being fudged to hurt the dearly beloved comrade Leader El Presidente.

I happen to know first hand of 2 out of 3 cases where the death was due to cancer/heart attack and the death certificate states COD as the KungFlu. The thid one had diabetes and got the China Virus and died.

Something is rotten in the state of México. if I may paraphrase the great playwright.

So about like how it is here north of the Rio. Any cause of death becomes a "Covid-19 death" if an "official" test comes back positive. And the official tests have an exorbitantly high false positive rate.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2020, 02:59:02 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1143047
So about like how it is here north of the Rio. Any cause of death becomes a "Covid-19 death" if an "official" test comes back positive. And the official tests have an exorbitantly high false positive rate.

Now imagine that OUR government bought the cheapest tests from China, that have the highest rate of false positives, I think they are about 30% correct, when they should be 80%
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 03, 2020, 03:15:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143052
Now imagine that OUR government bought the cheapest tests from China, that have the highest rate of false positives, I think they are about 30% correct, when they should be 80%

Oh good, we have an "I think" regarding data the fool doesnt even work with. Can we all play that dumbfuck game? I think they are at about 60% when they should be at 100%. Ooh...this version of science sure is fun.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 03, 2020, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143052
Now imagine that OUR government bought the cheapest tests from China, that have the highest rate of false positives, I think they are about 30% correct, when they should be 80%

Not gonna compete over whose tests are less accurate. :D They all suck.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 03, 2020, 03:43:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143033
Yep, his loss.

South of the Rio Grande we're handling things just peachy, turns out the "right wing / Neo-Liberal" "opposition" cries that our dearly beloved comrade leader El Presidente wants to become a dictator (I kind agree), and at the same time they cry he's not being more like Xi JingPooh.

Turns out in México (allegedly) the 75% of covid deaths are of 100% healthy people, which means one of three things:

There's something in Mexican's genetic makeup that makes us more susceptible to the virus.

There's a totally different strain of the virus in México

Or the numbers are being fudged to hurt the dearly beloved comrade Leader El Presidente.

I happen to know first hand of 2 out of 3 cases where the death was due to cancer/heart attack and the death certificate states COD as the KungFlu. The thid one had diabetes and got the China Virus and died.

Something is rotten in the state of México. if I may paraphrase the great playwright.

A local news station in Florida collated a number of so-called 'Covid' deaths where the cause of death was... pretty obviously not Covid. Like one poor bastard who blew his Ride check on a motorcycle and wound up street pizza.

The real fucktards are waving around poor Herman Cain, using him as a club. Conveniently, they leave out the fact he had stage 4 cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy.

It doesn't surprise me you're having issues with reporting. We're no better off.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 03, 2020, 04:07:57 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143064
A local news station in Florida collated a number of so-called 'Covid' deaths where the cause of death was... pretty obviously not Covid. Like one poor bastard who blew his Ride check on a motorcycle and wound up street pizza.

The real fucktards are waving around poor Herman Cain, using him as a club. Conveniently, they leave out the fact he had stage 4 cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy.

It doesn't surprise me you're having issues with reporting. We're no better off.

I like the one in Florida that got his test back positive and was stunned with the results:  Because he had gotten tired of waiting in line and gone home after signing up for the test but before having it administered to him. :D
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 03, 2020, 04:24:40 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1143072
I like the one in Florida that got his test back positive and was stunned with the results:  Because he had gotten tired of waiting in line and gone home after signing up for the test but before having it administered to him. :D

That has happened quite a bit...explain to me how hospitals getting $$$$ for positive results isn't resulting in massive corruption.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 03, 2020, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143064
A local news station in Florida collated a number of so-called 'Covid' deaths where the cause of death was... pretty obviously not Covid. Like one poor bastard who blew his Ride check on a motorcycle and wound up street pizza.

The real fucktards are waving around poor Herman Cain, using him as a club. Conveniently, they leave out the fact he had stage 4 cancer and was undergoing chemotherapy.

It doesn't surprise me you're having issues with reporting. We're no better off.

Herman Cain? The Republican that wanted to be the candidate? R.I.P.

Yep, I can see them taking that and using it as a political cudgel to destroy the economy AND get the Cheeto in Chief out of office.

I hope he wins in a landslide and to hear the lamentations of the soyboys.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 03, 2020, 04:33:25 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143082
Herman Cain? The Republican that wanted to be the candidate? R.I.P.

Yep, I can see them taking that and using it as a political cudgel to destroy the economy AND get the Cheeto in Chief out of office.

I hope he wins in a landslide and to hear the lamentations of the soyboys.

Stock up on popcorn, then. The lamentation of the soyboys will be appetizing, and their tears thirst-quenching.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 03, 2020, 04:57:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143028
SHARK, there have been times when you have been reasonable, good-natured, and easygoing. But increasingly, I find that you are posting only anger and bitterness (examples below), and I think it has been reflected in the rest of debate here, since you are a prolific and influential poster.



(Source) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42390-It-doesn-t-matter-if-you-don-t-like-leftists&p=1140945&viewfull=1#post1140945)


(Source) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42390-It-doesn-t-matter-if-you-don-t-like-leftists&p=1141016&viewfull=1#post1141016)


(Source) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42335-BLM-Protester-Shoots-White-Woman-For-Saying-quot-All-Lives-Matter-quot&p=1141632&viewfull=1#post1141632)


Greetings!

Well, yes, Jhkim, I have been angry towards Leftist, Marxist, scumbags and BLM and Antifa traitors that want to hurt and kill good Americans, and take over and destroy America. In that regard, I would think any good American here would agree with me on that. I don't think I have become engaged with an angry, personalized debate here though--with members here. My anger has been directed towards the Marxist traitors that are marching against America in our wider society.

I don't think it is "theoretical" about debating with Marxist traitors. I have seen them up close, face to face, and I have seen them on video. Does anyone honestly believe these people can be reasoned with? They envision a fucked dystopian world that is entirely hostile to America, and to the culture, traditions, and way of life that I and other good Americans wish to preserve. There isn't anything there to debate, so in my commentary towards current events and people or ideologies within the videos and current events, I don't see any virtues or values in what Marxist traitors embrace and espouse. They desire to destroy my country, our civilization, and everything that good Americans value and cherish.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 03, 2020, 05:18:46 PM
The problem with Covid is that it is not just a physical virus but also a mental virus as well.

Our ancestors used to face worse then this all of the time and I guess built up some what of a tolerance to having their family seemingly struck down at random around them.  However our current society with all of its soft corners and guardrails has not done much to prepare us for even such a mild pandemic as the Wuhan flu.

I know that Gad Saad is coming out with a new book called The Parasitic Mind: How Infectious Ideas Are Killing Common Sense and Tim Ferris has his Tao of Seneca: Letters from a Stoic Master.

Does anyone else have any recommended reading for building your mental toughness?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 03, 2020, 06:14:08 PM
Quote from: spon;1142645
Actually, if you are driving a vehicle (and in many other situations), you owe a duty of care to others - even if they're not your progeny. That's the law anyway, so good luck with your "F the rest of you" stance if you're involved in an accident! :-) Are you an anti-vaxxer? Or do you think they're idiots? Because your attitude is identical to the anti-vaxxers.


The only vaccine I'm opposed to is the ridiculous one people are claiming we need for this strain which has all but burned itself out. My children are fully vaccinated against all the childhood ailments, because that serves a useful purpose. They never have the annual "flu jab", because that is utterly pointless. As is any "coronavirus vaccine".

Quote from: HappyDaze;1142663
OK dumbfuck, do you wear pants? That's an obligation in the civilized world. Do you routinely yell out "Fire" in public places? No? Must be some sort of belief in the rules of civilization even if you're too much of an asshat to realize it.


I follow useful rules. I don't kowtow to compliance theatre for an easy life.

Quote from: sureshot;1142666
He can talk out of his ass all he wants. No mask no service period. So he can try the tough guy bullshit all he likes he won't be served in most public places like restaurant and stores. Hope his family and him can survive without food and water. Sure their is Amazon hope it arrives on time.


Not the way it works in this country, I haven't worn a mask yet and I'm not going to. I get served just fine, thanks for asking.

Quote from: Garry G;1143012
Okay Kiero I'm interested in how thus works for you. I imagine that you and your family interact with the rest of society at some point though I may be wrong. I can see that you're absolutely happy, possibly well chuffed, at people dying due to that interaction. Do you see any possible way that this may affect your life? Just say that you are a carrier but because of your awesome, and it is quite awesome, physique it doesn't affect you but you pass it on to the 50yr old asthmatic headmaster of your kids school. Is that possible in your island world?


I'm just as disinterested in that possibility as I have been every flu season I've been alive. It's a risk we all take being alive and interacting with other people. I've pretty much ignored all this compliance theatre bullshit the entire time this has been going on. I haven't been ill, no one around me has been ill.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 03, 2020, 07:22:46 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1143093
Our ancestors used to face worse then this all of the time and I guess built up some what of a tolerance to having their family seemingly struck down at random around them.  However our current society with all of its soft corners and guardrails has not done much to prepare us for even such a mild pandemic as the Wuhan flu.

We invented modern medicine for a reason. I sure woudn't want to live in a world where we went back to accepting women and children dying in childbirth, people dying from infection and disease as a common, routine matter of just being alive.
One thing I've said to friends and family is that Covid is likely so limited (but still serious) in effect is because of all our progress in medical science.

I do think that as we make the world a safer and more comfortable place, we lose the perspective that caused us to work towards that end.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 03, 2020, 07:34:43 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1142974
You pathetic fuck. You already have your hard right echo chamber. Deny if if you like shitstain, but I can see right through you. You assholes attack posters you don't like then want them cancelled when they tell you to fuck off. You're just like those that you hate. You're NPCs.


Wrong. Who is calling to cancel or ban any posters?

Notice how you're flinging poo in all directions, but nobody is demanding you be silenced.

Try that on other forums.

Here, you get to fling poo AND complain you're the martyr AND still not get banned.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1142995
Well, I'm new at being a raging, judgemental asshole,


It's doubtful you're new at being an asshole.

You've just gotten used to be treated like a subject expert and not being questioned, but now the CoronaChan narrative is falling apart at an increasingly faster rate and you're clinging to nonsense when you have the ability and education to analyze what's going on.


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143006
Yep, we constantly tell gringos with a white savior complex to go fuck themselves.


I wish the Trump campaign would invest more time and money into Latinos for Trump movement because I know this white savior bullshit doesn't fly because its so grotesquely bigoted. It's a great angle of attack for Trump.


Quote from: Brad;1143080
That has happened quite a bit...explain to me how hospitals getting $$$$ for positive results isn't resulting in massive corruption.


Everything science touches is pure!

Especially politicized healthcare!!

LOL.


Quote from: SHARK;1143089
I don't think it is "theoretical" about debating with Marxist traitors. I have seen them up close, face to face, and I have seen them on video. Does anyone honestly believe these people can be reasoned with?


Marxism, like radical islam, is a religion. There's nothing to discuss with AntiFart or BLM. Are you really going to convince anyone to abandon their god? Can they say anything that would make you abandon America to their ideology and Biden's handlers?

We're way past the talking part of the dance.


Quote from: Shasarak;1143093
The problem with Covid is that it is not just a physical virus but also a mental virus as well.


Good point.

If Trump stuck to his guns and ended the National Emergency on Easter, things wouldn't have gotten out of control because taxpayer money is what's allowing the state governors and mayors to be little bitch tyrants. Without trillions of free cash, these states and cities would have had to rely on their own reserves. AKA, CoronaChan would have been quickly abandoned as the anti-Trump tool. Without the money stream, everyone would have returned to work and I suspect the BLM bullshit wouldn't have a 1/10th the energy if people weren't out of work and mesmerized by the shamdemic.

Trump has fueled his own destruction.


Quote from: Shasarak;1143093
Does anyone else have any recommended reading for building your mental toughness?


Twitter?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 03, 2020, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: SHARK
I have to confess, HappyDaze, I much prefer the intelligent, reasonable, good-natured and easy-going HappyDaze from before your recent transformation. The new HappyDaze seems angry, hostile, and bitter--seemingly with everyone. I believe that I have always been pleasant, fun, and respectful to you, HappyDaze. I have always thought we get along pretty good together, despite the occasional disagreement. There has been much we agree on together, and have fun with. I wish you only good things, HappyDaze, for you and your family. I don't like seeing my friend so angry and bitter.
Quote from: jhkim
SHARK, there have been times when you have been reasonable, good-natured, and easygoing. But increasingly, I find that you are posting only anger and bitterness (examples below), and I think it has been reflected in the rest of debate here, since you are a prolific and influential poster.
Quote from: SHARK;1143089
Well, yes, Jhkim, I have been angry towards Leftist, Marxist, scumbags and BLM and Antifa traitors that want to hurt and kill good Americans, and take over and destroy America. In that regard, I would think any good American here would agree with me on that. I don't think I have become engaged with an angry, personalized debate here though--with members here. My anger has been directed towards the Marxist traitors that are marching against America in our wider society.

I don't think it is "theoretical" about debating with Marxist traitors. I have seen them up close, face to face, and I have seen them on video. Does anyone honestly believe these people can be reasoned with?
I'm pretty sure I fall under the category of what you call a traitor to American society, as do most of my family, friends, and neighbors. In any case, even if I'm not, there's a wide range of views here on theRPGsite, and I'm sure there are others who are. This is not a safe space where such people are kept out.

I'm pretty sure that I have even closer interactions than you do, as I live in the Bay Area and take part in liberal activism. For example, my church has a "Black Lives Matter" banner on it. I went with other members to the BLM protest in my town a few weeks ago. I knew one of the speakers there, and talked to him afterwards. I know you consider us to be evil snarling villains, but if you came by for services, you would be welcome.

There are people on my side that I disagree with as well as people on the other side that I disagree with, but that doesn't mean that I can't sit and have a beer with them and talk over out differences. I would hope that you could do the same.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 03, 2020, 08:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1143108
We invented modern medicine for a reason. I sure woudn't want to live in a world where we went back to accepting women and children dying in childbirth, people dying from infection and disease as a common, routine matter of just being alive.
One thing I've said to friends and family is that Covid is likely so limited (but still serious) in effect is because of all our progress in medical science.

I do think that as we make the world a safer and more comfortable place, we lose the perspective that caused us to work towards that end.

Of course you would not want to live in world without modern medicine because modern medicine has made you a big softie who is not hard enough to live in a world without modern medicine.

I say that with love knowing that I too am that big softie.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 03, 2020, 09:02:56 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1143119
Of course you would not want to live in world without modern medicine because modern medicine has made you a big softie who is not hard enough to live in a world without modern medicine.

I say that with love knowing that I too am that big softie.
....

:)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 03, 2020, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143115
I'm pretty sure I fall under the category of what you call a traitor to American society, as do most of my family, friends, and neighbors. In any case, even if I'm not, there's a wide range of views here on theRPGsite, and I'm sure there are others who are. This is not a safe space where such people are kept out.

I'm pretty sure that I have even closer interactions than you do, as I live in the Bay Area and take part in liberal activism. For example, my church has a "Black Lives Matter" banner on it. I went with other members to the BLM protest in my town a few weeks ago. I knew one of the speakers there, and talked to him afterwards. I know you consider us to be evil snarling villains, but if you came by for services, you would be welcome.

There are people on my side that I disagree with as well as people on the other side that I disagree with, but that doesn't mean that I can't sit and have a beer with them and talk over out differences. I would hope that you could do the same.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, Jhkim, no "safe spaces" required. I certainly hope different people are welcome here. Having said that, yeah, this site is not ruled by SJW's and Marxists. So when such people like that want to get into it, yeah, there is plenty of pushback against SJW's and their ilk here.

As for you attending BLM events, sure, man. You do that. I've been to a BLM event, too.:D

Out here, though, BLM thugs are not allowed to run around burning, looting, and murdering. Amazing how polite BLM people are when you have a loaded AR-15 rifle in your hands. BLM events from Boise, north to Coeur D' Lane have been met by hundreds and thousands of citizens waving American flags, and armed to the teeth. People here prefer waving American flags, not BLM flags. Just like folks here don't believe in kneeling to anyone or anything except God. Lots of people here carry a Bible in one hand, and a rifle or a pistol in the other hand. Bullshit Marxists nonsense and rebellion isn't tolerated here.

My church doesn't have BLM flags. We proudly wave American flags at Church, too. I also have several neighbors that are police officers. We support our police here, where law enforcement is respected and honoured, just like our military veterans. God, Family, and America are what's honoured here--not murder, burning, screaming, and rebellion.

I am always willing to have peaceful discussions. I'm not changing a damn thing though. I'm not backing down, not giving up my Bible, and not giving up my guns. As an individual person, Jhkim, YOU may be non-violent--but many people that support BLM and are involved in BLM and Antifa clearly disagree with you. Beyond having a peaceful discussion, it becomes clearer though, Jhkim--people on your side, want Marxism. They want segregation. They want Globalism, Cancel Culture, and shrieking hysteria. They also want abortion, and are against family values. They hate America, and view everything through a racist, victimhood lens. They don't support Christianity, and they love feminism. They believe in high taxes, and lots of big government. They hate Capitalism, and want anti-American propaganda taught in all of our schools. They want to make excuses for criminals, and to coddle them endlessly. They hate the police, and want police departments disbanded and defunded. They want to restrict my rights to keep and bear arms. They want to ignore and violate the Constitution of the United States of America.

All of that represents an alien, evil culture, Jhkim. It is not a culture that I or millions of Americans support. Good Americans will never submit and get on their knees for such an ideology and culture, Jhkim. That is an unavoidable fact. The Marxists have been Reeeing and pushing for this, Jhkim. Always pushing, laughing, sneering, making demands after demands.

There's gonna be a point where other Americans are gonna start making demands of these Marxists, BLM and Antifa. Making demands that there won't be any discussion about, and the Marxists aren't gonna like one bit. Marxists cannot be "negotiated" with. The culture you are pushing for is hostile and oppressive to the culture that millions of Americans cherish, Jhkim. Where have you been? On the BLM website, they claim to be against Christianity, the nuclear family, and Western Civilization. BLM leaders have admitted they are MARXISTS. BLM leaders have admitted that their goal is to DESTROY AMERICA.

Why would you support BLM, Jhkim? Yeah, you, your family, friends, neighbors--all of you--support BLM, while their goals have been plainly stated, and you are just fine with that? You are right, Jhkim, supporting BLM puts you on the side of Marxism and traitors to America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 03, 2020, 10:56:46 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1142927
Take note of how your conciliatory and friendly note is responded to here, Shark. He basically says 'If you don't agree with me, you're a monster'.

I'd say he lost his mask and now he's just polishing his bona fides before making a return to TBP.


Greetings!

*Laughing* That's right, my friend. I'm a fucking monster!:D

I glorify violence.:D Well, somehow my great country is being overrun by violent Marxists, fucking traitors to our Republic. They are funded and supported by worthless, cock-sucking anti-American politicians. All of them hate real Americans. And I'm supposed to kneel to them, and grovel and beg, and remain quiet and submissive. Just back down, and let them take over, and destroy America.

No, I'm not backing down, and I'm not gonna keep quiet, sir. I'm not getting on my knees.

Why shouldn't I be angry? Furthermore, violence is simply part of life. Some people you just can't reach, so, you get what we have here today. I don't like it any more than you men do, but this is the way they want it. So, they get it!:D

If Leftists truly wanted peaceful discussion--that train left the station a long time ago.

I think about how peaceful Marxists are--the BLM and Antifa thugs--when I read about the young white girl gunned down by the black BLM thugs for saying, "All Lives Matter!" I think about how peaceful they are when they shot and murdered Mr. Dorn, a 77 year old black retired policeman in St. Louis. I think about the little 8-year old black girl shot and murdered by BLM in Atlanta, Georgia. I think about the white BLM thug who shot into a car with an AK-47, attempting to murder an innocent citizen. I think about how the BLM thugs have beaten police officers, thrown Molotov cocktails at them, attacked people with baseball bats, and burned down cities.

Every true American should always remember these things, and never forget what the fucking Democrats are really supporting, and what they really stand for.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 04, 2020, 04:24:44 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1143127
I am always willing to have peaceful discussions. I'm not changing a damn thing though. I'm not backing down, not giving up my Bible, and not giving up my guns. As an individual person, Jhkim, YOU may be non-violent--but many people that support BLM and are involved in BLM and Antifa clearly disagree with you. Beyond having a peaceful discussion, it becomes clearer though, Jhkim--people on your side, want Marxism. They want segregation. They want Globalism, Cancel Culture, and shrieking hysteria. They also want abortion, and are against family values. They hate America, and view everything through a racist, victimhood lens. They don't support Christianity, and they love feminism.

You're telling me what my side thinks - but as I said, these are my family, friends, church members, and neighbors. Given that I see and talk to them all the time, I don't find your accusations convincing. I also think that if you came and hung out with us for a while - you wouldn't change sides, but you might be less quick to call for us being lobotomized and sterilized.

The overwhelming majority of both Democrats and Republicans are ordinary people who want to live their lives in peace. They have differences, but they are neither violent nor extremists.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 04, 2020, 04:26:30 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1143108
We invented modern medicine for a reason. I sure woudn't want to live in a world where we went back to accepting women and children dying in childbirth, people dying from infection and disease as a common, routine matter of just being alive.
One thing I've said to friends and family is that Covid is likely so limited (but still serious) in effect is because of all our progress in medical science.

I do think that as we make the world a safer and more comfortable place, we lose the perspective that caused us to work towards that end.

Proper hygiene has been far more important than "modern medicine" in achieving all those victories over infection and disease. People often seem to overlook the importance of running water and handwashing.

The impact of coronavirus has been limited because it's ultimately little different to every other seasonal strain of virus that comes and goes. The only thing that has made this "novel" is the panicked over-reaction of governments in destroying their economies whilst interrupting the normal development of herd immunity with pointless lockdowns.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 04:58:05 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1143162
You're telling me what my side thinks - but as I said, these are my family, friends, church members, and neighbors. Given that I see and talk to them all the time, I don't find your accusations convincing. I also think that if you came and hung out with us for a while - you wouldn't change sides, but you might be less quick to call for us being lobotomized and sterilized.

Oh, but that wouldn't fit SHARK's narrative. Besides, that fucker would rather just chum the waters and keep wearing his big grin while others tear into people...well, I'm not even sure SHARK really sees them as people, TBH.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1143109

You've just gotten used to be treated like a subject expert and not being questioned, but now the CoronaChan narrative is falling apart at an increasingly faster rate and you're clinging to nonsense when you have the ability and education to analyze what's going on.

You don't get how it works do you? In my field, you don't get to be a subject matter expert without being questioned. This isn't like Trump and his fucking wack-ass pet subject matter expert doctor with her spirit-husband rapists, alien DNA, and reptilians in government bullshit. Oh no, you fuckers here will deepthroat that shit because it fits your narrative. Trump always rolls well on his reaction checks with the NPCs here, and so do all of the most quacked-out right wing conspiracy theories. Now reasonable theories? Scientifically based theories? Fuck no, not here. You might believe them IRL, but not when here. Here stupid shit pours out like a bad day after a Chipotle binge. So why fight it? It's not like anything here is real.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 04, 2020, 05:37:03 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1143162
You're telling me what my side thinks - but as I said, these are my family, friends, church members, and neighbors. Given that I see and talk to them all the time, I don't find your accusations convincing. I also think that if you came and hung out with us for a while - you wouldn't change sides, but you might be less quick to call for us being lobotomized and sterilized.

The overwhelming majority of both Democrats and Republicans are ordinary people who want to live their lives in peace. They have differences, but they are neither violent nor extremists.

Greetings!

Marxists want to destroy America. The BLM leaders are self-admitted Marxists. BLM leaders have admitted their goal is to destroy America. Democrats have increasingly embraced Marxism. Your assessment that the majority of Democrats are ordinary people who want to live their lives in peace--is meaningless, when they support Marxism. Furthermore, as we have seen the Democratic party become more and more radical and Marxist--the idea that the majority of Democrats are ordinary people is weak. Democrats that do not bow down and embrace Marxism have been targeted and cancelled. Those few Democrats that do not embrace Marxism are pretty obviously not a majority, but a minority. You, Jhkim, are in denial. The Democratic party is a party ruled now by Marxists. You and your friends are certainly free to love Marxism all you want. That doesn't change the fact that Marxism is fundamentally hostile to America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 04, 2020, 05:45:46 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143165
Oh, but that wouldn't fit SHARK's narrative. Besides, that fucker would rather just chum the waters and keep wearing his big grin while others tear into people...well, I'm not even sure SHARK really sees them as people, TBH.

Greetings!

So, when Marxist BLM leaders in Portland openly say that their goal is to destroy America, I'm supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy for them? When BLM founders admit that they are trained Marxists, and they want to destroy Christianity, the nuclear family, and destroy America and make America into a Marxist utopia--that all is just sweet and wonderful? And the "Democrats" that embrace BLM and Antifa--yeah, they are just sweet, tolerant and loving people, right? I'm supposed to believe that they are lying--they don't really want to destroy America, and force America into becoming a Marxist utopia? Yeah, right. Marxists oppose America, and want to destroy and overthrow America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 06:01:20 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1143169
Greetings!

So, when Marxist BLM leaders in Portland openly say that their goal is to destroy America, I'm supposed to feel all warm and fuzzy for them? When BLM founders admit that they are trained Marxists, and they want to destroy Christianity, the nuclear family, and destroy America and make America into a Marxist utopia--that all is just sweet and wonderful? And the "Democrats" that embrace BLM and Antifa--yeah, they are just sweet, tolerant and loving people, right? I'm supposed to believe that they are lying--they don't really want to destroy America, and force America into becoming a Marxist utopia? Yeah, right. Marxists oppose America, and want to destroy and overthrow America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Destroy or transform? The America (or Christianity) that exists in this moment is not eternal. It will change as Americans (or Christians) change. Democracy means that changes the majority of the people want will eventually happen. Failure to understand that makes you a fossil. At some point, YOU might just become the "domestic enemy" of America...and in some eyes, you might already be there.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 04, 2020, 07:06:42 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143171
Destroy or transform? The America (or Christianity) that exists in this moment is not eternal. It will change as Americans (or Christians) change. Democracy means that changes the majority of the people want will eventually happen. Failure to understand that makes you a fossil. At some point, YOU might just become the "domestic enemy" of America...and in some eyes, you might already be there.

Marxists only know how to destroy; we have the history of the 20th century, covering multiple places and 100 million corpses as proof.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 07:35:45 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1143178
Marxists only know how to destroy; we have the history of the 20th century, covering multiple places and 100 million corpses as proof.

Not all that oppose the current way of things are Marxists (although some certainly are). Despite the loud rants of those pushing the us/them divides, not all of them are them (and not all of us are us...some are dumb-fuck NPCs).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 04, 2020, 07:51:56 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1143178
Marxists only know how to destroy; we have the history of the 20th century, covering multiple places and 100 million corpses as proof.


Yep.  And the "liberals" that side with them in the name of justice are the first ones against the wall when the Marxists finally get enough power to put people against said wall.  On that unhappy day, the people that fought the Marxist are already dead, and the "liberals" discover that they are alone with no pesky others to their right worrying their delicate sensibilities over how people should act.  It's a shame they don't get to enjoy this state for very long.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 04, 2020, 08:12:07 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143179
Not all that oppose the current way of things are Marxists (although some certainly are). Despite the loud rants of those pushing the us/them divides, not all of them are them (and not all of us are us...some are dumb-fuck NPCs).

No, some of them are useful idiots who enable the Marxists, and are swiftly disposed of when the commies get their way.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 08:39:55 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1143183
No, some of them are useful idiots who enable the Marxists, and are swiftly disposed of when the commies get their way.

These are the same ones that all the chicken littles say are coming for our old books, right? Yeah...no, the fucking idiotic doomsayers around here are so hilariously full of shit. My books are still fine, too...
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 04, 2020, 12:00:07 PM
Greetings!

Well, I have the Holy Bible, the Constitution of the United States of America, and my BCM AR-15 rifle. If the day ever comes that I am considered to be a "Domestic Enemy" here in America, then our great country is fucking done. I'm ready, brother! You can take that to the fucking bank!

However, I won't back down to the goddamned Communists, and I won't go quietly. I sure as fuck won't be alone, either. Down at a local Mexican restaurant, Juan is the boss there. He's a patriot. Mike, a neighbor of mine--he's a policeman here in our little town. Katie, a checkout clerk at my local grocery store, she's a neighbor, too. Both her and her husband are patriots. Steve, the owner of my local auto mechanic shop, he will join me. Chuck, the owner of my barber shop down the road--he's a veteran, and a patriot. Maria, a Hispanic woman that works at a nearby Mexican restaurant--she and her husband Raul are armed and god-fearing patriots that love America. John, a policeman that also works at my local gun shop, I know he's armed and ready. My church is full of patriots. So is a nearby Mormon church, a Catholic church, a Baptist church, a non-denominational church, too--all are filled with patriots, all armed, and all ready. I have friends from Northern Idaho, Washington state, Oregon, down in California, and out in Arizona and Texas, too. Hell, I have friends right here on this website that are armed and ready, and who are just a phone call away. Many veterans, all armed, and all patriots that love America!

So, if the day ever comes that I am considered to be a "Domestic Enemy"--I will not be alone, and I will be in good company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 12:10:43 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1143229
Greetings!

Well, I have the Holy Bible, the Constitution of the United States of America, and my BCM AR-15 rifle. If the day ever comes that I am considered to be a "Domestic Enemy" here in America, then our great country is fucking done. I'm ready, brother! You can take that to the fucking bank!

However, I won't back down to the goddamned Communists, and I won't go quietly. I sure as fuck won't be alone, either. Down at a local Mexican restaurant, Juan is the boss there. He's a patriot. Mike, a neighbor of mine--he's a policeman here in our little town. Katie, a checkout clerk at my local grocery store, she's a neighbor, too. Both her and her husband are patriots. Steve, the owner of my local auto mechanic shop, he will join me. Chuck, the owner of my barber shop down the road--he's a veteran, and a patriot. Maria, a Hispanic woman that works at a nearby Mexican restaurant--she and her husband Raul are armed and god-fearing patriots that love America. John, a policeman that also works at my local gun shop, I know he's armed and ready. My church is full of patriots. So is a nearby Mormon church, a Catholic church, a Baptist church, a non-denominational church, too--all are filled with patriots, all armed, and all ready. I have friends from Northern Idaho, Washington state, Oregon, down in California, and out in Arizona and Texas, too. Hell, I have friends right here on this website that are armed and ready, and who are just a phone call away. Many veterans, all armed, and all patriots that love America!

So, if the day ever comes that I am considered to be a "Domestic Enemy"--I will not be alone, and I will be in good company.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


So if the day comes that you and your hometown buddies are viewed as a domestic enemy, will you hold to your duty and defend tomorrow's America from them?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on August 04, 2020, 12:30:00 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143171
Destroy or transform? The America (or Christianity) that exists in this moment is not eternal. It will change as Americans (or Christians) change. Democracy means that changes the majority of the people want will eventually happen. Failure to understand that makes you a fossil. At some point, YOU might just become the "domestic enemy" of America...and in some eyes, you might already be there.


All well and good, but the United States isn't a democracy...
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 04, 2020, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143171
Destroy or transform? The America (or Christianity) that exists in this moment is not eternal. It will change as Americans (or Christians) change. Democracy means that changes the majority of the people want will eventually happen. Failure to understand that makes you a fossil. At some point, YOU might just become the "domestic enemy" of America...and in some eyes, you might already be there.


Greetings!

"Destroy or transform?" Well, as far as I'm concerned, no, we aren't transforming a goddamned thing. Our Constitution endures, and our Christian faith remains as well. Our heritage handed down to us by our fathers before us. Our principles, our heritage is eternal. Fuck "Hope and Change"! That worked out real well for America, now didn't it? Some weak, mushy jello-filled folks are all juiced and excited by always "changing"--but changing isn't always for the better. In fact, keeping hold of the old ways, embracing old customs, and holding fast to the wisdom of our forefathers is what preserves us to this day. Our Constitution has endured and guided us for over 200 years. Peoples and cultures that refuse to learn from the past are lost and doomed to failure and defeat.

Didn't you see the many videos that I and many others have posted here about BLM, Antifa, and the fucking Marxist threat? This shit is real, HappyDaze. It isn't some imaginary figment. Good Americans are being threatened, beaten, fired, oppressed, robbed, and murdered RIGHT NOW by these fucking Marxist traitors. Some people want to keep drinking the sweet Kool Aid of sleepy oblivion--but the threat to America, and freedom everywhere, is real and growing. Our friends in Australia, in Mexico, in Britain--they too know what we must fight against and resist.

I am sure not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that it all just isn't real, I can take a fucking nap and everything will be fine!

Yeah, that's right. I'm a old school Tyrannosaurus Rex. I'm not in favour of always changing everything just because some brainless fucking brats have a tantrum and demand "change"! These fucking Marxists need to be shown something else entirely. Change? Yeah, instead of coddling these goddamned traitors I can think of some changes for them for damned sure!

I guess I'm just a terrible fucking monster because I'm a patriot, because I'm a Christian, and because I'm conservative and white. Well, too fucking bad. How about we make some changes that I fucking want? That millions of other patriotic Americans also want?

That's right. Come November, we will make some new changes, starting with re-electing Donald J. Trump as President of the United States of America. I imagine President Trump has some changes in mind for America, too. Yes, HappyDaze. Some change can be good! Get ready to embrace the changes, HappyDaze! Just imagine when TRUMP gets re-elected!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 04, 2020, 01:31:51 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1143168
Democrats that do not bow down and embrace Marxism have been targeted and cancelled. Those few Democrats that do not embrace Marxism are pretty obviously not a majority, but a minority. You, Jhkim, are in denial. The Democratic party is a party ruled now by Marxists. You and your friends are certainly free to love Marxism all you want. That doesn't change the fact that Marxism is fundamentally hostile to America.
I would say that the Democratic party is strongly controlled by Wall Street and corporations. So no, I don't think that the Democratic party are particularly Marxist, and they have strongly resisted progressives like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren who want to regulate Big Tech and other megacorps. I just don't think the Republican party is any better - and despite his noise about Amazon and others, neither Trump nor the Republicans in Congress have done much to reign them in.

I think you're in denial if you think it's not so, most likely from believing exactly whatever Youtube tells you -- because of course Youtubers are paragons of truth and virtue, and would never deceive the way that politicians do.

In general, I vote based on established track record and platform. Most of Democratic candidates are the same people as were in charge during the Obama years - and they were not particularly progressive, somewhat frustratingly so, in my view. The accusation of Marxism among lawmakers is largely driven by a blatantly shifting definition -- where countries like Sweden are considered capitalist and free, not proof of the success of Marxism -- but any attempt to implement social programs like what they have is labelled as Marxist.

Quote from: Kiero;1143178
Marxists only know how to destroy; we have the history of the 20th century, covering multiple places and 100 million corpses as proof.
So the proof here is: "Stalin was a leftist. Stalin killed millions. Joe Biden is a leftist. Therefore Joe Biden wants to kill millions."

I am opposed to left-wing authoritarian regimes like the Soviets as well as right-wing authoritarian regimes like Pinochet and others. Neither of those are proof of what American politicians are up to - which has more to do with bending over to corporations than anything else.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1143243
Greetings!

"Destroy or transform?" Well, as far as I'm concerned, no, we aren't transforming a goddamned thing. Our Constitution endures, and our Christian faith remains as well. Our heritage handed down to us by our fathers before us. Our principles, our heritage is eternal. Fuck "Hope and Change"! That worked out real well for America, now didn't it? Some weak, mushy jello-filled folks are all juiced and excited by always "changing"--but changing isn't always for the better. In fact, keeping hold of the old ways, embracing old customs, and holding fast to the wisdom of our forefathers is what preserves us to this day. Our Constitution has endured and guided us for over 200 years. Peoples and cultures that refuse to learn from the past are lost and doomed to failure and defeat.

Didn't you see the many videos that I and many others have posted here about BLM, Antifa, and the fucking Marxist threat? This shit is real, HappyDaze. It isn't some imaginary figment. Good Americans are being threatened, beaten, fired, oppressed, robbed, and murdered RIGHT NOW by these fucking Marxist traitors. Some people want to keep drinking the sweet Kool Aid of sleepy oblivion--but the threat to America, and freedom everywhere, is real and growing. Our friends in Australia, in Mexico, in Britain--they too know what we must fight against and resist.

I am sure not going to stick my head in the sand and pretend that it all just isn't real, I can take a fucking nap and everything will be fine!

Yeah, that's right. I'm a old school Tyrannosaurus Rex. I'm not in favour of always changing everything just because some brainless fucking brats have a tantrum and demand "change"! These fucking Marxists need to be shown something else entirely. Change? Yeah, instead of coddling these goddamned traitors I can think of some changes for them for damned sure!

I guess I'm just a terrible fucking monster because I'm a patriot, because I'm a Christian, and because I'm conservative and white. Well, too fucking bad. How about we make some changes that I fucking want? That millions of other patriotic Americans also want?

That's right. Come November, we will make some new changes, starting with re-electing Donald J. Trump as President of the United States of America. I imagine President Trump has some changes in mind for America, too. Yes, HappyDaze. Some change can be good! Get ready to embrace the changes, HappyDaze! Just imagine when TRUMP gets re-elected!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Maybe you missed it, but the Constitution can be amended and Christianity has changed--both officially and practically--since the time that America became a nation. That's transformation you dipship. To pretend that this is the same nation it was > 200 years ago is ridiculous, especially since I know you know history. You didn't swear to defend the America of your favorite fucking moment, you swore to defend a living country that can grow, even if it goes in directions you don't like. What a sad sack of a protector you are.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on August 04, 2020, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143256
Maybe you missed it, but the Constitution can be amended and Christianity has changed--both officially and practically--since the time that America became a nation. That's transformation you dipship. To pretend that this is the same nation it was > 200 years ago is ridiculous, especially since I know you know history. You didn't swear to defend the America of your favorite fucking moment, you swore to defend a living country that can grow, even if it goes in directions you don't like. What a sad sack of a protector you are.

He didn't swear to defend ANY country, he swore to defend the Constitution itself.   There is a distinct difference.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 02:58:53 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1143267
He didn't swear to defend ANY country, he swore to defend the Constitution itself.   There is a distinct difference.

Yes, and that's the same Constitution that's constantly being reinterpreted and is subject to amendment when the people (even, or especially, the ones that he doesnt much respect) push hard enough.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on August 04, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143273
Yes, and that's the same Constitution that's constantly being reinterpreted and is subject to amendment when the people (even, or especially, the ones that he doesnt much respect) push hard enough.

What is being misinterpreted?  What do you think needs to be amended?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 04:27:16 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1143275
What is being misinterpreted?  What do you think needs to be amended?

I said reinterpreted. That's part of what the Supreme Court does. As for what amendments might be needed, that's not for me to say. However, there are a lot of angry American voices out there. In the past, that sometimes led to amendments.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on August 04, 2020, 04:34:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143289
I said reinterpreted. That's part of what the Supreme Court does. As for what amendments might be needed, that's not for me to say. However, there are a lot of angry American voices out there. In the past, that sometimes led to amendments.

You are correct, I was the one that said 'mis'-interpreted...and you went to the Supreme Court.  Tell me now, which Article is the one which gives SCOTUS the right and duty to interpret the Constitution?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 04, 2020, 04:58:56 PM
Quote from: moonsweeper;1143290
You are correct, I was the one that said 'mis'-interpreted...and you went to the Supreme Court.  Tell me now, which Article is the one which gives SCOTUS the right and duty to interpret the Constitution?

Figure that one out on your own. I stated what does happen; it matters not to me whether or not it should happen.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 04, 2020, 07:33:59 PM
Anyone who thinks they can twist the true meaning of the oath to force patriots to bend the knee to "whatever we claim America is today" needs to read up on what Honest Abe actually did with his Presidential power when he decided to save the nation.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 04, 2020, 08:47:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143166
You don't get how it works do you? In my field, you don't get to be a subject matter expert without being questioned.

LOL. If that was remotely true, then we wouldn't have the MSM declared experts in your field is so absolutely terrified of any doctor or scientist who dares questions their narrative.

Where's the vigorous scientific debate when an accredited and experienced doctor claims to have healed hundreds?

Nowhere to be seen, but plenty of attacks on her religious beliefs. Makes me wonder if the religious attacks would be the same if she was a African Muslim instead of an African Christian. Just kidding!!  Like we didn't already know!!

And it's not rocket science. As I've posted repeatedly, this shit is simple. Anonymize her patient data, analyze her patient data, determine if her findings are correct, and then either act on her findings or prosecute her for medical fraud.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1143166
Now reasonable theories? Scientifically based theories? Fuck no, not here. You might believe them IRL, but not when here.

I don't post anything I won't say in real life. That would be lame.

I'm well versed in scientific research and the shamdemic has been a disgrace of failure by our scientific community, and the vast harm done will haunt us for at least two decades.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1143166
Here stupid shit pours out like a bad day after a Chipotle binge.

Dude, you've been flinging poo like a meth monkey.

And you can keep doing so without any fear of banning.

Clearly, you either need to vent or you're enjoying venting. Either way, your one handed typing skills are excellent!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 04, 2020, 11:22:27 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1143331
Dude, you've been flinging poo like a meth monkey.

It has been more fun around here anyway.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 05, 2020, 05:08:04 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1143250
So the proof here is: "Stalin was a leftist. Stalin killed millions. Joe Biden is a leftist. Therefore Joe Biden wants to kill millions."

I am opposed to left-wing authoritarian regimes like the Soviets as well as right-wing authoritarian regimes like Pinochet and others. Neither of those are proof of what American politicians are up to - which has more to do with bending over to corporations than anything else.

You missed out Mao and many others in there. But that isn't the point at all. Biden is happy to look the other way while communists like BLM and Antifa do their thing.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2020, 05:31:13 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1143369
You missed out Mao and many others in there. But that isn't the point at all. Biden is happy to look the other way while communists like BLM and Antifa do their thing.

There is also the possibility that Biden is just an opportunist using the moment against his opponent. Biden the candidate and Biden in office might look very different. That's not an endorsement, it's just acknowledging that all politicians wear many faces.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 05, 2020, 08:19:30 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1143350
It has been more fun around here anyway.


True though I why people insist on engaging with a Troll is beyond me.

This is the poster in another thread who claims he thought that the Safety Toolkit was a product about keeping player character safe. When he damn well know it was an SJW woke as can be product. Could not be bothered to do basic research and accused the forum of overreacting about the contents of the product. This is the disingenuous Troll you all want to keep giving attention too. Go ahead I think he gets off on the attention he receives from you and other posters.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 05, 2020, 08:45:22 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1143385
True though I why people insist on engaging with a Troll is beyond me.

This is the poster in another thread who claims he thought that the Safety Toolkit was a product about keeping player character safe. When he damn well know it was an SJW woke as can be product. Could not be bothered to do basic research and accused the forum of overreacting about the contents of the product. This is the disingenuous Troll you all want to keep giving attention too. Go ahead I think he gets off on the attention he receives from you and other posters.

You need to specify which troll you're talking about, because I'm the amusing one, motherfucker.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on August 05, 2020, 11:52:21 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1143369
You missed out Mao and many others in there. But that isn't the point at all. Biden is happy to look the other way while communists like BLM and Antifa do their thing.


Just so long as it continues to line his and his family's pockets he's content.  Very model of a modern plutocrat.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 05, 2020, 11:55:33 AM
Quote from: KingCheops;1143426
Just so long as it continues to line his and his family's pockets he's content.  Very model of a modern plutocrat.

"He is the very model
Of the modern global-plurocrat..."

Gilbert and Sullivan would have a field day.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on August 05, 2020, 03:12:49 PM
Yeah.

Can't remember if its been posted but check out tech founders net worth before and after the lockdowns.  That rising line gets really steep upwards... in case anyone was wondering when/if we'll ever get out of lockdown.  UBI here we come!  Pick your megacorp that you belong to!  I'm going with the unexpected Tootsie Roll/Everlast merger.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 05, 2020, 05:15:45 PM
Quote from: KingCheops;1143458
Yeah.

Can't remember if its been posted but check out tech founders net worth before and after the lockdowns.  That rising line gets really steep upwards... in case anyone was wondering when/if we'll ever get out of lockdown.  UBI here we come!  Pick your megacorp that you belong to!  I'm going with the unexpected Tootsie Roll/Everlast merger.


We've had the biggest experiment with UBI in the UK (9.5 million people on "furlough"), and it proved exactly what the naysayers said. That given the choice not to work some 80% of people will happily do fuck all. It's a disincentive to work and the result is that when our furlough scheme ends in October, unemployment will be in the millions.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 05, 2020, 07:35:44 PM
Quote from: Kiero;1143477
We've had the biggest experiment with UBI in the UK (9.5 million people on "furlough"), and it proved exactly what the naysayers said. That given the choice not to work some 80% of people will happily do fuck all. It's a disincentive to work and the result is that when our furlough scheme ends in October, unemployment will be in the millions.

It proved nothing about UBI. Certainly companies were happy to send people home when they didn't have to pay them because of the pandemic but there's nothing to say that people didn't want to work. The rise in unemployment will be because of the collapse of some industries due to the lock down not because of people choosing not to go to work, they didn't have that choice. Spikes in infections have been due to people having to go to work due to dodgy bosses like Sitel.

You talk shite like it was facts but it's still shite.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 05, 2020, 10:35:18 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143388
You need to specify which troll you're talking about, because I'm the amusing one, motherfucker.

Sure maybe when your flinging poo all over the place while jacking yourself off.

I was going to put you on ignore that would be a victory for you of a sort.

At this point your non entity to me I could be having a beer with other posters like Kiero and Spinachcat who I have disagreements with. Youl could show up and verbal toss around your poo and you don't exist to me. Something is writing words ot's just words on a screen nothing more. In public you could wave your hands in my face and you also don't exist. Something is obviously in front of me. It takes space and volume, breathes in air beyond that nothing. Trolls are gonna troll and I am absolutely done with you.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 06, 2020, 04:03:28 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1143508
Sure maybe when your flinging poo all over the place while jacking yourself off.

I was going to put you on ignore that would be a victory for you of a sort.

At this point your non entity to me I could be having a beer with other posters like Kiero and Spinachcat who I have disagreements with. Youl could show up and verbal toss around your poo and you don't exist to me. Something is writing words ot's just words on a screen nothing more. In public you could wave your hands in my face and you also don't exist. Something is obviously in front of me. It takes space and volume, breathes in air beyond that nothing. Trolls are gonna troll and I am absolutely done with you.

Luv u too sweetums.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2020, 08:13:56 AM
Quote from: Garry G;1143492
It proved nothing about UBI. Certainly companies were happy to send people home when they didn't have to pay them because of the pandemic but there's nothing to say that people didn't want to work. The rise in unemployment will be because of the collapse of some industries due to the lock down not because of people choosing not to go to work, they didn't have that choice. Spikes in infections have been due to people having to go to work due to dodgy bosses like Sitel.

You talk shite like it was facts but it's still shite.

You've missed all the people celebrating that they're sunbathing and otherwise idling, then lots of public sector types coming up with flimsy excuses not to go back to work (teachers are the classic one there). Along with lots of employers realising they don't need half their staff, and furlough gives them the perfect opportunity to get rid of the most useless staff members, who will find they won't have a job to come back to in October.

What spikes in infection? Good luck discerning anything meaningful given there are likely high percentages of people who show symptoms no different to a cold. The government had to admit only today that their data on deaths is complete bollocks.

If coronavirus were really all that infectious, we'd see outbreaks centred on supermarkets. Which there haven't been. Any. Hardly any staff have come down with anything either, so unless working in a supermarket provides some sort of special immunity, it's pretty difficult to transmit. The only people who were ever at risk are those working in hospitals and care homes.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 06, 2020, 08:59:46 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1143527
You've missed all the people celebrating that they're sunbathing and otherwise idling, then lots of public sector types coming up with flimsy excuses not to go back to work (teachers are the classic one there). Along with lots of employers realising they don't need half their staff, and furlough gives them the perfect opportunity to get rid of the most useless staff members, who will find they won't have a job to come back to in October.

What spikes in infection? Good luck discerning anything meaningful given there are likely high percentages of people who show symptoms no different to a cold. The government had to admit only today that their data on deaths is complete bollocks.

If coronavirus were really all that infectious, we'd see outbreaks centred on supermarkets. Which there haven't been. Any. Hardly any staff have come down with anything either, so unless working in a supermarket provides some sort of special immunity, it's pretty difficult to transmit. The only people who were ever at risk are those working in hospitals and care homes.

And meatpacking plants, at least here in the U. S.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 06, 2020, 10:01:26 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1143527
You've missed all the people celebrating that they're sunbathing and otherwise idling, then lots of public sector types coming up with flimsy excuses not to go back to work (teachers are the classic one there). Along with lots of employers realising they don't need half their staff, and furlough gives them the perfect opportunity to get rid of the most useless staff members, who will find they won't have a job to come back to in October.

What spikes in infection? Good luck discerning anything meaningful given there are likely high percentages of people who show symptoms no different to a cold. The government had to admit only today that their data on deaths is complete bollocks.

If coronavirus were really all that infectious, we'd see outbreaks centred on supermarkets. Which there haven't been. Any. Hardly any staff have come down with anything either, so unless working in a supermarket provides some sort of special immunity, it's pretty difficult to transmit. The only people who were ever at risk are those working in hospitals and care homes.

Soem people liked having the time off, the bastards. The public sector is the most represented as not being furloughed, most teachers in my area have had time working in the hubs that are open for essential workers.

I cited the Sitel spike in infections, it's in the post you quoted. There's another in Aberdeen right now due to open pubs.

Supermarkets have been working with masks and social distancing. I agree with you that this has been a success that we can celebrate together. At a distance.

It's hard to figure out the exact amount of deaths in the UK or any other country but I'd favour the excess deaths data which certainly gives me pause.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 06, 2020, 10:02:34 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1143532
And meatpacking plants, at least here in the U. S.

Meatpacking plants everywhere. What is it with that?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 06, 2020, 10:17:27 AM
Quote from: Garry G;1143537
Soem people liked having the time off, the bastards. The public sector is the most represented as not being furloughed, most teachers in my area have had time working in the hubs that are open for essential workers.

I cited the Sitel spike in infections, it's in the post you quoted. There's another in Aberdeen right now due to open pubs.

I haven't had any time off, I've been working this entire time. I'm even classed as a Key Worker, no claps for me, though. I'm a second class Key Worker who doesn't work for the hallowed NHS (most of whom have been idle this entire time, having sacked off their workload to prepare for a "surge" that never came). But you're right, they're not furloughed, they've been given effectively paid leave at full pay for the most part. Nice work if you can get it.

If the teachers aren't in the classroom, they're not working. It was only in the last weeks of June that teachers at my kids school started doing anything resembling work, no idea what they were doing before that.

Quote from: Garry G;1143537
Supermarkets have been working with masks and social distancing. I agree with you that this has been a success that we can celebrate together. At a distance.

Bahahaha, utter drivel. Hardly any staff have been wearing masks, and in England mask-wearing by the customer has only been mandatory for two weeks.

This strain of coronavirus is neither particularly infectious, nor deadly if you're not old and/or sick. The unnecessary lockdown, on the other hand, is pretty fatal to the economy and has likely killed more people than it saved.

Quote from: Garry G;1143537
It's hard to figure out the exact amount of deaths in the UK or any other country but I'd favour the excess deaths data which certainly gives me pause.

If the data is unreliable, how do you know they're "excess"? People die all the time, total strangers who were close to death dying gives me no pause whatsoever.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 06, 2020, 11:04:19 AM
Oh dear.

I don't know any NHS worker that was slacking off. They all had more duties in preparation for a possible surge and have had a very stressful time. I live in an area that got called the South Korea of Scotland because the excellent testing regime implemented by our local trust and my OT wife was in work more than usual.

So you didn't have a hub for your kids to go to, you weren't getting regular classwork through Classdojo or similar software? That's all done by people working. I know you think that people are basically lazy or something but it's in your head. Yes teachers have been worried about opening up schools, this doesn't mean they don't want to work although the may be wrong.

To be fair I'm in Scotland and we've avoided some of the shit show that is England. Supermarkets have had no track and trace so it's impossible to find out if your lax implementation has spread the virus.

Do you know what excess deaths is? This is different from what the government has been using and is why I refer to it. These are deaths above the expected amount for the time of year and this year they indicate that your assertions are a piece of nonsense. I'll give you that they may be due to something else, perhaps there's been a 67,000 rise in decapitation, but you'd have to give me something convincing. This indicates that the deaths are actually worse than we've been told.

You're right about the awful effects on our economy especially with Brexit about to make it worse. What you're wrong about is that we should have shut down faster and harder so we could come out of it quicker. That seems to have worked in such socialist hellgoles as New Zealand.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2020, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1143546
That seems to have worked in such socialist hellgoles as New Zealand.

Someone from Scotland calling New Zealand a hellgole?

My irony meter just exploded.  :rolleyes:
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2020, 06:05:37 PM
Elect more fascist democrats

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 06, 2020, 06:26:02 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1143581
Someone from Scotland calling New Zealand a hellgole?

My irony meter just exploded.  :rolleyes:

Sorry. Hellhole.

My wife is from Otahuhu. You're lack of appreciation of my irony doesn't even disappoint me.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 06, 2020, 06:47:52 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1143591
Sorry. Hellhole.

My wife is from Otahuhu. You're lack of appreciation of my irony doesn't even disappoint me.

Otahuhu is a hellhole?  Shit man I have been to Scotland and Otahuhu and there is a reason why people willingly traveled 18000km in a leaky wooden boat to get away from the South Korea of Scotland.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on August 06, 2020, 11:34:59 PM
My school district in a "red" state was telling us all summer that they would go back to school with masks and social distancing. Lo and behold, today it's announced that instead a hybrid system is being used. Even red states partake in the mania. Of course, teacher's unions have been left all along, and administrators for decades at least. Based on a few months ago, my kids were learning next to nothing with e-learning. I work full time and my wife is attending college.

Having a kid on the spectrum who really likes structure, this is going to be disruptive for his calm. Will it all be back to business as usual after the election?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 07, 2020, 01:30:58 AM
Hawkwing, sorry to hear son is suffering. As an ex-special education teacher, I have been advising parents that their children have (so far) lost an entire year of education. If I was El Presidente, I'd have every kid redo the last year. Not just because of the lost class hours, but because the emotional and psychological trauma of the shamdemic. While parents have been panicking over the virus and economics, their kids have been sponging in all that...but processing it (very poorly) through their developing minds.

If your son has an IEP, please note that he has federally protected rights to whatever educational plan and services the district has committed to within the IEP. You and your wife should sit down and review the IEP in detail, because I doubt the "e-learning" fulfilled many (if any) of the requirements.

However, while "federally protected rights" sounds great on paper, I know many districts do everything to deny, minimize and lie about special education services. Of course, parents have the right to sue, and your child will age quickly as the lawsuit drags through the court system for 1-3 years. Based on the legal chatter I've seen, when this shamdemic ends, the courts will be overloaded for the next 5 years.

I've been giving all my special education parents the same advice, even before the shamdemic. I was not a fan of home-schooling in the past for numerous reasons, but the many realities of our current education system combined with the innovations in communal home schooling and e-learning have changed my mind. I would not trust my child's education (or my pet) to the current crop of educators and their soul-crushing, worthless, drone-producing system.

My mom, a devout Italian Catholic schoolteacher for 40 years, can't talk about the modern school system without dropping f-bombs and threatening demon summoning.

PS: Kids not "on the spectrum" also really like structure. Most (not all) of the kids who "hate" structure also do better with structure. The key is to define "structure" and analyze what aspects of structure are most effective for that particular child.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 07, 2020, 05:31:10 AM
Quote from: Garry G;1143546
Oh dear.

I don't know any NHS worker that was slacking off. They all had more duties in preparation for a possible surge and have had a very stressful time. I live in an area that got called the South Korea of Scotland because the excellent testing regime implemented by our local trust and my OT wife was in work more than usual.

Wow. You know a significant proportion of the 1.4 million people (though only 550,000 in actual front-line care) who work for the NHS? That must be hell keeping up. I've heard countless anecdotes from all around the country of hospitals that are empty, worse still private hospitals barred from doing any work because the NHS commandeered their capacity, then did nothing with it.

Primary care was closed. For most places there was no "surge" in coronavirus cases to deal with. So what "work" have they been doing, exactly?

Quote from: Garry G;1143546
So you didn't have a hub for your kids to go to, you weren't getting regular classwork through Classdojo or similar software? That's all done by people working. I know you think that people are basically lazy or something but it's in your head. Yes teachers have been worried about opening up schools, this doesn't mean they don't want to work although the may be wrong.

There was nothing before June, barring a few exercises that could have been easily prepared by one person (and looked recycled). More to the point, they weren't in the classroom, since only some teaching assistants were there. My kids went back in June, thankfully, but there were hardly any teachers around. They also didn't bother with the charade of social distancing, once the parents buggered off.

All the talk about it "not being safe" is obstructionism from the teaching unions. Children are less susceptible and less transmissible than adults, they are literally in one of the safest workspaces there could be. Never mind that the virus can't be all that infectious given supermarkets have been fine all this time.

Quote from: Garry G;1143546
To be fair I'm in Scotland and we've avoided some of the shit show that is England. Supermarkets have had no track and trace so it's impossible to find out if your lax implementation has spread the virus.

Do you know what excess deaths is? This is different from what the government has been using and is why I refer to it. These are deaths above the expected amount for the time of year and this year they indicate that your assertions are a piece of nonsense. I'll give you that they may be due to something else, perhaps there's been a 67,000 rise in decapitation, but you'd have to give me something convincing. This indicates that the deaths are actually worse than we've been told.

Nice when England subsidises your state's very existence to the tune of £15bn a year, isn't it? If the death statistics themselves are unreliable (yesterday they admitted tens of thousands were wrong) how can you be sure they're excess due to coronavirus?

Quote from: Garry G;1143546
You're right about the awful effects on our economy especially with Brexit about to make it worse. What you're wrong about is that we should have shut down faster and harder so we could come out of it quicker. That seems to have worked in such socialist hellgoles as New Zealand.

We'll see how clever New Zealand is when they open up again, with no herd immunity whatsoever.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2020, 06:00:50 AM
Good fucking lord. This idiocy again. People in supermarkets don't tend to stay within 6' of and another for > 10 minutes at a time since shopping requires them to move about. School setting are far more static, with significant numbers lingering in close proximity for extended periods of time. Fucking read the goddamned guidelines for preventing transmission. What kind of gamers are you people anyway?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 07, 2020, 06:58:26 AM
Nonsense Kiero. Utter piece of nonsense.

To be fair I will ask what you think the 67,000 excess deaths are. What uptick could have caused such a thing?

I'm willing to take a bet on New Zealands success though. They'll do fine with herd immunity once a vaccine is established that can grant it. You see that's how you get herd immunity.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2020, 10:10:37 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143639
Good fucking lord. This idiocy again. People in supermarkets don't tend to stay within 6' of and another for > 10 minutes at a time since shopping requires them to move about. School setting are far more static, with significant numbers lingering in close proximity for extended periods of time. Fucking read the goddamned guidelines for preventing transmission. What kind of gamers are you people anyway?

And the air inside the supermarket forms a bubble around you and follows you around so no virus can escape the magical barrier.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 07, 2020, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: Shasarak;1143598
Otahuhu is a hellhole?  Shit man I have been to Scotland and Otahuhu and there is a reason why people willingly traveled 18000km in a leaky wooden boat to get away from the South Korea of Scotland.

You seem weirdly defensive about your country. You should do more to celebrate how well it avoided the 2008 recession, the vibrant arts scene and how successful Jucinda Arden has been and not just in battling the virus. Listen to some BBQ reggae and be happier.

Also to be fair the Scots got in a leaky boat, travelled around the world then decided to live in Dunedin because they missed the shitty bits of Scotland.

You should just be happy you can go to see Fat Freddy's Drop. This is year two of delays for me.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2020, 12:31:22 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143660
And the air inside the supermarket forms a bubble around you and follows you around so no virus can escape the magical barrier.

If only an e-wall had been built to block stupidity like this from crossing the border.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 07, 2020, 02:39:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143676
If only an e-wall had been built to block stupidity like this from crossing the border.

Scratch a leftist, find a bigot.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 07, 2020, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1143691
Scratch a leftist, find a bigot.

Hey Biden says Latinos have diversity, it's just those damn blacks who are all the same!
And allegedly he doubled down on that too!

But hey, what can you expect from a good friend of a KKK grand wizard?
(can't wait for those Trump ads to start playing!)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2020, 06:55:56 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1143733
Hey Biden says Latinos have diversity, it's just those damn blacks who are all the same!
And allegedly he doubled down on that too!

But hey, what can you expect from a good friend of a KKK grand wizard?
(can't wait for those Trump ads to start playing!)

I'm sure Biden is completely unaware of having said that. Not saying that he didn't.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on August 08, 2020, 02:44:48 PM
He said it, I watched it. It's easy to find on the Internets.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 08, 2020, 02:47:32 PM
Womp, womp

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2020, 02:58:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143830
Womp, womp


https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/87844
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 08, 2020, 04:02:09 PM
Medical advice is *not* the same as other forms of free speech. There is the idea that all doctors should be allowed to give medical advice freely over the Internet, and patients can choose who to listen to. From this perspective, then blocking medical advice is censorship.

However, there is also the idea that this is really dangerous. I believe in the free market of ideas more broadly, but in the case of medical advice, that is one area where the market should be regulated. I think hydroxychloroquine should be investigated - but the debate over it should happen in journals and professional groups, not over Youtube and other news media.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2020, 04:39:31 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143835
Medical advice is *not* the same as other forms of free speech. There is the idea that all doctors should be allowed to give medical advice freely over the Internet, and patients can choose who to listen to. From this perspective, then blocking medical advice is censorship.

However, there is also the idea that this is really dangerous. I believe in the free market of ideas more broadly, but in the case of medical advice, that is one area where the market should be regulated. I think hydroxychloroquine should be investigated - but the debate over it should happen in journals and professional groups, not over Youtube and other news media.

Those that suggest YouTube as a source of anything real are among the worst kinds of idiots. Sadly, it's the common practice around here.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2020, 04:41:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143835
Medical advice is *not* the same as other forms of free speech. There is the idea that all doctors should be allowed to give medical advice freely over the Internet, and patients can choose who to listen to. From this perspective, then blocking medical advice is censorship.

However, there is also the idea that this is really dangerous. I believe in the free market of ideas more broadly, but in the case of medical advice, that is one area where the market should be regulated. I think hydroxychloroquine should be investigated - but the debate over it should happen in journals and professional groups, not over Youtube and other news media.


Journals and professional groups have proven to be unreliable.  There is no good reason for internet platforms to act as censors when they don't know what they are doing.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2020, 04:55:25 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1143842
Journals and professional groups have proven to be unreliable.  There is no good reason for internet platforms to act as censors when they don't know what they are doing.

Oh, we're back to the Leftists Are against Science! thread then.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 08, 2020, 05:39:00 PM
Sorry I'm not up on my conspiracy theories and very easily confused. Why is the miracle cure hydroxychloroquine being suppressed? Why does it matter if this is only a harmless flu that just kills old people who nobody cares about? Is it bad in the US or is everything fine? Are the excess deaths because more people are at home due to lockdown so it's all swimming pool and trouser related fatalities? Why does anybody like Crowded House?

I'm genuinley confused about what everybodies reasoning over what seems to be a straightforwatd pandemic. I mean it's an international crisis so there must be an international conspiracy creating it if it's actually just a bad cold. Who is this shadowy organisation?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 08, 2020, 05:48:44 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143847
Oh, we're back to the Leftists Are against Science! thread then.


I'm listening.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 08, 2020, 06:03:11 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143835
Medical advice is *not* the same as other forms of free speech. There is the idea that all doctors should be allowed to give medical advice freely over the Internet, and patients can choose who to listen to. From this perspective, then blocking medical advice is censorship.

However, there is also the idea that this is really dangerous. I believe in the free market of ideas more broadly, but in the case of medical advice, that is one area where the market should be regulated. I think hydroxychloroquine should be investigated - but the debate over it should happen in journals and professional groups, not over Youtube and other news media.

Hydroxychlorquine has already been investigated to treat malaria and other conditions. It's effectiveness against Covid and it's potential side effects, like every other drug that exists, has been politicized.

Quote
Hydroxychloroquine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxychloroquine) was approved for medical use in the United States in 1955.[2] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines.[9] In 2017, it was the 128th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than five million prescriptions.

But the Orange Man mentioned it in one of his speeches! Now it's bad and evil and we shouldn't even discuss the drug in case someone magically obtains bucketfulls of a prescription medication and starts gobbling it down like candy!

Give me a break.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 08, 2020, 09:19:00 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143835
Medical advice is *not* the same as other forms of free speech. There is the idea that all doctors should be allowed to give medical advice freely over the Internet, and patients can choose who to listen to. From this perspective, then blocking medical advice is censorship.

However, there is also the idea that this is really dangerous. I believe in the free market of ideas more broadly, but in the case of medical advice, that is one area where the market should be regulated. I think hydroxychloroquine should be investigated - but the debate over it should happen in journals and professional groups, not over Youtube and other news media.


Did you see the video? Or you did like the twatwaffle and dismissed it because youtube? It talks about not a simple doctor but a PHD and professor of epidemiology and a published paper.

Forget that the Bad Orange Man talked about it and think.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 08, 2020, 10:24:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143882
Did you see the video? Or you did like the twatwaffle and dismissed it because youtube? It talks about not a simple doctor but a PHD and professor of epidemiology and a published paper.

Forget that the Bad Orange Man talked about it and think.

Forget your video, dumbass. Your doctor is versed in the epidemiology of CANCER, not the epidemiology of INFECTIOUS DISEASES. That's a pretty huge difference, as his colleagues at Yale pointed out in the link I used to destroy your YouTube trash almost as soon as you posted it. But let me break it down for you: all diseases are not alike. Your boy is not an expert in the types of diseases that include Covid-19. Add to that the shortcomings of his so-called research, and you look like a fool without any need to Trump-bash.

Oh, and "not a simple doctor, but a PhD" just shows how ridiculously stupid you really are.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Chivalric on August 08, 2020, 11:03:40 PM
The person in question is both an MD and a Phd, so that's probably what GeekyBugle meant by "not a simple doctor, but a PhD"
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 09, 2020, 03:22:26 AM
Quote from: jhkim
Medical advice is *not* the same as other forms of free speech. There is the idea that all doctors should be allowed to give medical advice freely over the Internet, and patients can choose who to listen to. From this perspective, then blocking medical advice is censorship.

However, there is also the idea that this is really dangerous. I believe in the free market of ideas more broadly, but in the case of medical advice, that is one area where the market should be regulated. I think hydroxychloroquine should be investigated - but the debate over it should happen in journals and professional groups, not over Youtube and other news media.
Quote from: Shasarak;1143842
Journals and professional groups have proven to be unreliable.  There is no good reason for internet platforms to act as censors when they don't know what they are doing.
That sounds like exactly the view I have concern about. Because you consider journals and professional groups to be unreliable, therefore you think Internet platforms shouldn't censor medical advice. Instead, people are free to post their medical advice without censorship, and the public can decide for themselves.

Regardless of the specifics over hydroxychlorquine, I think disregarding journals and professional groups in favor of the open Internet will result in a ton of people following bad advice and a lot more deaths and sickness.


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143882
Did you see the video? Or you did like the twatwaffle and dismissed it because youtube? It talks about not a simple doctor but a PHD and professor of epidemiology and a published paper.

Forget that the Bad Orange Man talked about it and think.
The attempted ad hominem here is cheap and dumb. I have a clearly expressed position which has nothing to do with Trump -- it's about whether medical advice should be treated like celebrity gossip and hashed out over Youtube and Twitter by the public and politicians, or whether it should be handled in a professional context through research and journals. Shasarak has at least expressed a clear position against medical journals and organizations. While I disagree with him, he has at least addressed the issue.

I posted earlier in Post #165 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42126-Covid-the-quot-lockdowns-quot-etc&p=1142223&viewfull=1#post1142223) about a recent Nature article on hydroxychlorquine:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41419-020-2721-8

This is what the debate over hydroxychlorquine should look like - actual research and consideration, rather than politicized grandstanding.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 09, 2020, 04:18:04 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1143909
Regardless of the specifics over hydroxychlorquine, I think disregarding journals and professional groups in favor of the open Internet will result in a ton of people following bad advice and a lot more deaths and sickness.

Like what?

We had one person of questionable motives and mental state decide she and her husband (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/arizona-woman-fish-tank-cleaner-trump-democrat) should drink a teaspoon full of fish tank cleaner because it kinda sorta sounded like "That stuff Trump was talking about."

You really can't stop people from jumping off of rooftops because they saw Superman flying in a cartoon, or drinking fish tank cleaner because they think it maybe kinda sorta sounds like something else.

Outside of that one, incredibly dumb instance, how many people have taken Hydroxychloroquine outside of a doctor's prescription? I'm ready to be corrected, but I haven't heard of anyone.

And that, so far, is all that people are asking. That doctors be allowed to talk about their results from prescribing a drug.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on August 09, 2020, 10:21:03 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1143917
We had one person of questionable motives and mental state decide she and her husband (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/arizona-woman-fish-tank-cleaner-trump-democrat) should drink a teaspoon full of fish tank cleaner because it kinda sorta sounded like "That stuff Trump was talking about."

That was a straight-up murder and you'd have to work hard to convince me otherwise.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: TNMalt on August 09, 2020, 11:00:38 AM
https://khn.org/news/dont-fall-for-this-video-hydroxychloroquine-is-not-a-covid-19-cure/
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2020, 11:34:02 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1143909
That sounds like exactly the view I have concern about. Because you consider journals and professional groups to be unreliable, therefore you think Internet platforms shouldn't censor medical advice. Instead, people are free to post their medical advice without censorship, and the public can decide for themselves.

Regardless of the specifics over hydroxychlorquine, I think disregarding journals and professional groups in favor of the open Internet will result in a ton of people following bad advice and a lot more deaths and sickness.



The attempted ad hominem here is cheap and dumb. I have a clearly expressed position which has nothing to do with Trump -- it's about whether medical advice should be treated like celebrity gossip and hashed out over Youtube and Twitter by the public and politicians, or whether it should be handled in a professional context through research and journals. Shasarak has at least expressed a clear position against medical journals and organizations. While I disagree with him, he has at least addressed the issue.

I posted earlier in Post #165 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42126-Covid-the-quot-lockdowns-quot-etc&p=1142223&viewfull=1#post1142223) about a recent Nature article on hydroxychlorquine:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41419-020-2721-8

This is what the debate over hydroxychlorquine should look like - actual research and consideration, rather than politicized grandstanding.

Well, the professor published a paper in a journal, one more to add to the pile of research papers we're not allowed to talk about or risk getting banned from social media.

Why is it that pretending those doesn't exist is considered a good thing?


Edited to add:

There's a new study (I can't find it cuz I don't remember the name of the stuff), that found out an elevated level of certain stuff (Protein?) that is related with coagulation, higher levels on the infected cells and something the primary victims have in common is elevated levels of this stuff.

So HCQ is an antiviral, anti-inflammatory and anti-coagulant...
As for the drug, it's sold with prescription only, so why is there political and social pressure being exerted on physicians not to prescribe it?

Not the one I was talking about but... https://ashpublications.org/blood/article/136/4/489/460672/COVID-19-and-coagulation-bleeding-and-thrombotic (https://ashpublications.org/blood/article/136/4/489/460672/COVID-19-and-coagulation-bleeding-and-thrombotic)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2020, 11:59:04 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1143940
Well, the professor published a paper in a journal, one more to add to the pile of research papers we're not allowed to talk about or risk getting banned from social media.

Why is it that pretending those doesn't exist is considered a good thing?


Edited to add:

There's a new study (I can't find it cuz I don't remember the name of the stuff), that found out an elevated level of certain stuff (Protein?) that is related with coagulation, higher levels on the infected cells and something the primary victims have in common is elevated levels of this stuff.

So HCQ is an antiviral, anti-inflammatory and anti-coagulant...
As for the drug, it's sold with prescription only, so why is there political and social pressure being exerted on physicians not to prescribe it?

Not the one I was talking about but... https://ashpublications.org/blood/article/136/4/489/460672/COVID-19-and-coagulation-bleeding-and-thrombotic (https://ashpublications.org/blood/article/136/4/489/460672/COVID-19-and-coagulation-bleeding-and-thrombotic)

There's no need to pretend it doesnt exist, you ignorant shit; we can just point out where it's discredited for being utter shit work. That's how science (including medical science) works.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 09, 2020, 01:51:59 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143847
Oh, we're back to the Leftists Are against Science! thread then.

The thread was actually entitled "Liberals are against Science!" although even that was a misnomer. Based on the responses, all it served to show was how "Conservatives are against Science!"
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 09, 2020, 01:59:04 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1143951
The thread was actually entitled "Liberals are against Science!" although even that was a misnomer. Based on the responses, all it served to show was how "Conservatives are against Science!"

At least with regards to this site and how those here that responded label themselves,  you would be quite right. However, it's possible that the anti-science honeypot just unveiled their hidden Liberal sides. Or, most likely, that it's just the usual mix of shit-stirring assholes that make their idiotic claims and push them onto the "others" no matter who they are. As I've said, there really isn't anything real here.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 09, 2020, 02:14:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1143952
At least with regards to this site and how those here that responded label themselves,  you would be quite right. However, it's possible that the anti-science honeypot just unveiled their hidden Liberal sides. Or, most likely, that it's just the usual mix of shit-stirring assholes that make their idiotic claims and push them onto the "others" no matter who they are. As I've said, there really isn't anything real here.

Fair enough. I don't actually believe that in the real world, and in the main, "Conservatives are against science." But there sure was a lot of that on display here. Apparently to an uncomfortable degree, since the thread was abruptly locked.

 EDITED TO ADD: further to that, I don't believe anti-science people here were showing their hidden liberal side. What I do believe is that there is a growing anti-science, anti-intellectualism that has its conservative face, its liberal face, and even it's mushy middle face.  To me, it's troubling, but whatever, the assault on science comes from all sides and even from the middle.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 09, 2020, 02:58:46 PM
Quote from: jhkim
Regardless of the specifics over hydroxychlorquine, I think disregarding journals and professional groups in favor of the open Internet will result in a ton of people following bad advice and a lot more deaths and sickness.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1143917
Outside of that one, incredibly dumb instance, how many people have taken Hydroxychloroquine outside of a doctor's prescription? I'm ready to be corrected, but I haven't heard of anyone.

And that, so far, is all that people are asking. That doctors be allowed to talk about their results from prescribing a drug.

I'm not clear what you're advocating here. Are you advocating that there should be free speech about hydroxychloroquine, but not free speech about other drugs or medical advice? If so, what's your basis for making it an exception?

What I was trying to emphasize in the point you quoted is that this isn't specifically about hydroxychloroquine, but rather about all drugs and medical advice. There has been some misuse of hydroxychloroquine, as documented here, for example:

http://www.pharmafile.com/news/546051/us-reports-increase-hydroxychloroquine-misuse

But the bigger issue is how this is a call to end medical censorship, which as I said, I think is a bad principle. Medical advice is an area where there should be restrictions.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 09, 2020, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143964
But the bigger issue is how this is a call to end medical censorship, which as I said, I think is a bad principle. Medical advice is an area where there should be restrictions.

Even if you were right, do you want someone at Youtube or Twitter with their degree in grievance studies to be the one that is your censor?

Look at their success at "fact checking" non medical facts.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 09, 2020, 09:19:02 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1143964
I'm not clear what you're advocating here. Are you advocating that there should be free speech about hydroxychloroquine, but not free speech about other drugs or medical advice? If so, what's your basis for making it an exception?

I'm not sure how you took it to mean that. Doctors should have free speech to talk about whatever they like, including their opinions on drug effectiveness.

Quote
What I was trying to emphasize in the point you quoted is that this isn't specifically about hydroxychloroquine, but rather about all drugs and medical advice. There has been some misuse of hydroxychloroquine, as documented here, for example:

http://www.pharmafile.com/news/546051/us-reports-increase-hydroxychloroquine-misuse

But the bigger issue is how this is a call to end medical censorship, which as I said, I think is a bad principle. Medical advice is an area where there should be restrictions.

In a country where the government representative told the public a bald faced lie about the effectiveness of masks, and then walked it back when caught out, I'm not quite sure who we can trust to disseminate medical information.

I sure don't want Facebook or Twitter to be making those decisions for us.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 09, 2020, 09:44:14 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144000
I'm not sure how you took it to mean that. Doctors should have free speech to talk about whatever they like, including their opinions on drug effectiveness.



In a country where the government representative told the public a bald faced lie about the effectiveness of masks, and then walked it back when caught out, I'm not quite sure who we can trust to disseminate medical information.

I sure don't want Facebook or Twitter to be making those decisions for us.

Greetings!

Exactly, Ratman!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2020, 09:54:59 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1143968
Even if you were right, do you want someone at Youtube or Twitter with their degree in grievance studies to be the one that is your censor?

Look at their success at "fact checking" non medical facts.

THIS, ten trillion times this.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 10, 2020, 08:28:43 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1143964
I'm not clear what you're advocating here. Are you advocating that there should be free speech about hydroxychloroquine, but not free speech about other drugs or medical advice? If so, what's your basis for making it an exception?

What I was trying to emphasize in the point you quoted is that this isn't specifically about hydroxychloroquine, but rather about all drugs and medical advice. There has been some misuse of hydroxychloroquine, as documented here, for example:

http://www.pharmafile.com/news/546051/us-reports-increase-hydroxychloroquine-misuse

But the bigger issue is how this is a call to end medical censorship, which as I said, I think is a bad principle. Medical advice is an area where there should be restrictions.

jhkim, are you familiar with the Lancet study on hydroxychloroquine? And how it was retracted, after questions came up about the data supplier (Surgisphere), and then Surgisphere just... poofed? (Seriously, that's the only way to describe it. They disappeared like a soap bubble hit by a bullet)

Now do you understand why people are feeling a little hard done-by by the professionals? You want studies on HCQ? Sure, I'm in. Let's DO some studies. But you won't GET those studies because any work will be interpreted as promotion of the Orange Man Bad. And the left cannot give Trump a win, ever.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 10, 2020, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144052
jhkim, are you familiar with the Lancet study on hydroxychloroquine? And how it was retracted, after questions came up about the data supplier (Surgisphere), and then Surgisphere just... poofed? (Seriously, that's the only way to describe it. They disappeared like a soap bubble hit by a bullet)

Now do you understand why people are feeling a little hard done-by by the professionals? You want studies on HCQ? Sure, I'm in. Let's DO some studies. But you won't GET those studies because any work will be interpreted as promotion of the Orange Man Bad. And the left cannot give Trump a win, ever.
I support having studies of hydroxychloroquine. And I agree that Surgisphere was a fake, duplicitous data supplier -- which The Lancet was taken in by. As far as I know - that data was exposed and rejected not by any right-wing source, but by other professional and media criticism. Here's Science Magazine on the scandal, for example:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/mysterious-company-s-coronavirus-papers-top-medical-journals-may-be-unraveling

And that sucks. But the alternative being peddled here is to reject all professional review and study. The argument is that it's better to just open up and let anyone give medical advice without censoring fake treatments or studies -- because censorship is bad. I consider that solution to be *far* worse. The censorship isn't just leftist media - even Breitbart took down it's video of "America's Frontline Doctors" and replaced it with an article critical of Dr. Immanuel -- when here on this very forum I was blasted as "hating empirical evidence" for questioning it. I think Breitbart was doing the right thing here. Giving out medical advice is fucking dangerous and companies should be hesitant to do so, rather than just treating it as people's right to express their opinion.

By personally pushing hydroxychloroquine, Trump politicized the issue in the U.S. -- but Covid-19 is a worldwide problem, and I don't buy that, for example, Israel is rejecting hydroxychloroquine as a cure because of "Orange Man Bad".
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 01:24:52 PM
Womp, womp

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 01:39:23 PM
That's why the more sensible approach has been to look at excess deaths which the UK didn't use. Excess deaths are more than the UK governments flawed stats. As I've said In open to a reason for these deaths but there's only one big thing being talked about this year.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 10, 2020, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144093
Womp, womp


WOMP WOMP INDEED! That's right, Hermano! But there's no political circle-jerking being done by various officials to manipulate the public, right? And fucking morons wander why we are suspicious of official narratives?

Stupid fucking conservatives deny science! Amiright? Reee! Reee!

Damn right people should be suspicious of the official fucking narrative.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 02:25:06 PM
To be fair nobody in their right mind is agreeing with the official narrative of the UK Conservative party. As I've said excess deaths are a better measure. I'm not sure why you won't give the Conservative Party the time of day though. I mean they're conservatives, it's in the name an a'hing.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2020, 03:56:17 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1144085
I support having studies of hydroxychloroquine. And I agree that Surgisphere was a fake, duplicitous data supplier -- which The Lancet was taken in by. As far as I know - that data was exposed and rejected not by any right-wing source, but by other professional and media criticism. Here's Science Magazine on the scandal, for example:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/mysterious-company-s-coronavirus-papers-top-medical-journals-may-be-unraveling

And that sucks. But the alternative being peddled here is to reject all professional review and study.


Wrong. The alternative being 'peddled' here is that partisan politics has affected the evaulation of certain medications, and that skepticism should be exercised against all claims, and that censorship of medical opinion makes no sense when there are people who are not even medical professionals, much less scientists, making the decisions on who to censor.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 10, 2020, 04:30:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1144085
But the alternative being peddled here is to reject all professional review and study.


How many fake studies would you accept in your "journals"?  1 in 10, 2 in 10?  4 in 10 still good, still mostly scientific?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 10, 2020, 05:06:00 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1144148
How many fake studies would you accept in your "journals"?  1 in 10, 2 in 10?  4 in 10 still good, still mostly scientific?

Scientists do tend to go back and cull these things given time. While some crap gets through initially, look at how often it gets referenced in other peer-reviewed works. Really egregious examples of crap science are most notable for being isolated.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 05:12:57 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144141
Wrong. The alternative being 'peddled' here is that partisan politics has affected the evaulation of certain medications, and that skepticism should be exercised against all claims, and that censorship of medical opinion makes no sense when there are people who are not even medical professionals, much less scientists, making the decisions on who to censor.

This 1000% But like when I am for free speech in other realms I'm labelled a natzee on this I'm labeled an anti-science right wing nutter.

While the "pro-science" suckers gladly drink the koolaid being poured down their throats by transnational megacorporations and call for even more censorship of those who dissent or dare question the narrative.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 05:26:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144164
This 1000% But like when I am for free speech in other realms I'm labelled a natzee on this I'm labeled an anti-science right wing nutter.

While the "pro-science" suckers gladly drink the koolaid being poured down their throats by transnational megacorporations and call for even more censorship of those who dissent or dare question the narrative.

I'm still not sure what the endgame here is. It's clearly not a Conservative endgame because you just posted an anti-Conservative video so what does anybody have to gain by repressing a miracle cure to a pandemic that is killing tens of thousands?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 10, 2020, 05:32:01 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144176
I'm still not sure what the endgame here is. It's clearly not a Conservative endgame because you just posted an anti-Conservative video so what does anybody have to gain by repressing a miracle cure to a pandemic that is killing tens of thousands?

Money for an untested, proprietary vaccine.

Political power exercised against healthy people at low risk for contracting or dying of the disease.

Good enough?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 05:48:35 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144176
I'm still not sure what the endgame here is. It's clearly not a Conservative endgame because you just posted an anti-Conservative video so what does anybody have to gain by repressing a miracle cure to a pandemic that is killing tens of thousands?

woopdee doo  I'm not a conservative, neither am I a progressive.

As for the end goal? Power grab and get rich would be my guess.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 05:49:21 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1144177
Money for an untested, proprietary vaccine.

Political power exercised against healthy people at low risk for contracting or dying of the disease.

Good enough?

Not really no.

Money for whom? Is the whole thing a conspiracy by big pharma? Seems a bit mental.

Political power for whom? The ruling party in the UK has a stonking big majority, Trumps place in power looks tenuous so mibbe.

This all seems awfy vague.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144183
Not really no.

Money for whom? Is the whole thing a conspiracy by big pharma? Seems a bit mental.

Political power for whom? The ruling party in the UK has a stonking big majority, Trumps place in power looks tenuous so mibbe.

This all seems awfy vague.

Who is advocating against anything that's not the vaccine or an expensive new drug? Mind you I don't think THEY made everything up, but like our president said: "This comes like a glove for us" (Nos cayo como anillo al dedo) about the pandemic, see an opportunity and grab it. So the opposition (whoever they happen to be since here in México it's currently "the Right") and whoever saw the opportunity and is lining their pockets.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 05:55:04 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144182
woopdee doo  I'm not a conservative, neither am I a progressive.

As for the end goal? Power grab and get rich would be my guess.

You're coming across more of a mad conspiracist which I'm sure you're not. Who are these vague enemies and what do they want? Isn't the idea that we've got a bit of the Old pandemics going on and the magic cure that was brought up by one bloke isn't so magic?

From the outside it all looks a bit nutty.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 05:58:49 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144188
Who is advocating against anything that's not the vaccine or an expensive new drug? Mind you I don't think THEY made everything up, but like our president said: "This comes like a glove for us" (Nos cayo como anillo al dedo) about the pandemic, see an opportunity and grab it. So the opposition (whoever they happen to be since here in México it's currently "the Right") and whoever saw the opportunity and is lining their pockets.

Who is "THEY"?

It must be some sort of international conspiracy as the pandemic reaction is international. How are "They" controlling governments of all stripes? What do "They" want from us?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 05:59:37 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144191
You're coming across more of a mad conspiracist which I'm sure you're not. Who are these vague enemies and what do they want? Isn't the idea that we've got a bit of the Old pandemics going on and the magic cure that was brought up by one bloke isn't so magic?

From the outside it all looks a bit nutty.

LOL, no no conspiracist, just highly skeptical of the narrative and seeing all the power grabs happen all over the world while the populace applauds or demands more to feel safe.

Sweden didn't go the destroy the economy route, look up their statistics, and all the right people hate on them.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 10, 2020, 06:00:45 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144191
You're coming across more of a mad conspiracist which I'm sure you're not. Who are these vague enemies and what do they want? Isn't the idea that we've got a bit of the Old pandemics going on and the magic cure that was brought up by one bloke isn't so magic?

From the outside it all looks a bit nutty.

Don't be so sure about that. GeekyBitch is high on the list of conspiracy nutters around here. His delusions make for endless entertainment.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 06:06:07 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144194
Who is "THEY"?

It must be some sort of international conspiracy as the pandemic reaction is international. How are "They" controlling governments of all stripes? What do "They" want from us?

Do you read and comprehend ?

"Mind you I don't think THEY made everything up" There's a reason I said that and capitalized that word.

Now try and not adjudicate ill intent, try and steel man my position, what could be the reason I had to writing it like that?

An assorted group of individuals/corporations with common interests/goals can give the impression of a vast conspiracy where none exists. You don't need one to get the results we see, you just need a lot of sociopaths in charge of the corporations (most are) and a lot of corrupt/power hungry fuckers in the governments (most are).
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 10, 2020, 06:06:32 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144191
You're coming across more of a mad conspiracist which I'm sure you're not. Who are these vague enemies and what do they want? Isn't the idea that we've got a bit of the Old pandemics going on and the magic cure that was brought up by one bloke isn't so magic?

From the outside it all looks a bit nutty.

And you're coming across as either hopelessly naive or deliberately disingenuous.

The entire medical establishment, whatever label you want to hang on it, has two priorities when it comes to medicine:

1. Ongoing treatment, because that means recurring charges and thus recurring income.
2. Proprietary medications, including vaccines, because per-dose charges can be higher. In some cases, over 10x the price of an identical generic-branded medication.

Anything that functions as a one-time cure fails both of the above. Yes, there are such cures, especially surgeries which are expensive in themselves. But for any newly identified disease or condition, one or both of the two above is always the preferred means of addressing it.

Add to that the political dimension: Trump recommended the hydroxychloroquine-zinc-arithromyacin treatment. Therefore, that treatment cannot be discussed, because it would reflect well on him, and disrupt efforts by his political opponents to take advantage of the crisis for other political gain.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 10, 2020, 06:12:56 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1144158
Scientists do tend to go back and cull these things given time. While some crap gets through initially, look at how often it gets referenced in other peer-reviewed works. Really egregious examples of crap science are most notable for being isolated.


If you accept crap science then it seems disingenuous to censor any science because "scientists tend to go back and cull these things given time" and you can "look at how often it gets referenced in other" work.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 06:14:25 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144195
LOL, no no conspiracist, just highly skeptical of the narrative and seeing all the power grabs happen all over the world while the populace applauds or demands more to feel safe.

Sweden didn't go the destroy the economy route, look up their statistics, and all the right people hate on them.

How did Sweden avoid the coordinated power grab not-conspiracy though? You see In not saying their approach was wrong for them but I'm not sure it would have been right for other areas. If it's only one country how did they escape this madness you talk of. Are they doing the cure?

Who are the right people and why do they hate them? Most people seem to find the Swedish to be pretty inoffensive, we all love ABBA.

I'm slightly joking in part but I need to see a coherent narrative where there was coordination in using a pandemic to exert control over the populace whilst mucking up the stats in such a way as to present less deaths than the excess death stats whilst tanking their economies whilst profiting over denigrating the miracle cure. Tell me a story that makes sense. The story that currently makes sense to me is that a load of countries turned out to be badly prepared for a pandemic and we're all paying, that makes sense to me.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 10, 2020, 06:19:04 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1144205
If you accept crap science then it seems disingenuous to censor any science because "scientists tend to go back and cull these things given time" and you can "look at how often it gets referenced in other" work.


The reason is to spare the common people, those that don't fact check and mine references, from fraudulent claims that might harm them. Yes, it is paternalism. I would love it if everyone were smarter about what they accept, but sometimes some protections help keep people from harming themselves and others.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 06:20:46 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1144201
And you're coming across as either hopelessly naive or deliberately disingenuous.

The entire medical establishment, whatever label you want to hang on it, has two priorities when it comes to medicine:

1. Ongoing treatment, because that means recurring charges and thus recurring income.
2. Proprietary medications, including vaccines, because per-dose charges can be higher. In some cases, over 10x the price of an identical generic-branded medication.

Anything that functions as a one-time cure fails both of the above. Yes, there are such cures, especially surgeries which are expensive in themselves. But for any newly identified disease or condition, one or both of the two above is always the preferred means of addressing it.

Add to that the political dimension: Trump recommended the hydroxychloroquine-zinc-arithromyacin treatment. Therefore, that treatment cannot be discussed, because it would reflect well on him, and disrupt efforts by his political opponents to take advantage of the crisis for other political gain.

Sorry but you're being hopelessly niave here. The US medical establishment may have those priorities but that's not true of other countries. Other countries have healthcare systems that aren't dependent on profit and prioritise reducing deaths.

That explains a lot to me. You're viewing the world through a lense perverted by something you see as normal but is anything but. If you only regard it as a national crisis you can't see beyond that.

That is hopelessly niave. You need to broaden your view.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 06:25:12 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144200
Do you read and comprehend ?

"Mind you I don't think THEY made everything up" There's a reason I said that and capitalized that word.

Now try and not adjudicate ill intent, try and steel man my position, what could be the reason I had to writing it like that?

An assorted group of individuals/corporations with common interests/goals can give the impression of a vast conspiracy where none exists. You don't need one to get the results we see, you just need a lot of sociopaths in charge of the corporations (most are) and a lot of corrupt/power hungry fuckers in the governments (most are).

I'm reading but I'm truly not comprehending.

This would need a global group of f like minded coordinated people. Some sort of conspiracy likesay. An uncoordinated mess of governments unprepared for a pandemic make much more sense than your idea of organisations deliberately quashing the truth.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 10, 2020, 06:33:07 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1144208
The reason is to spare the common people, those that don't fact check and mine references, from fraudulent claims that might harm them. Yes, it is paternalism. I would love it if everyone were smarter about what they accept, but sometimes some protections help keep people from harming themselves and others.

You dont protect the common people by censoring science that you dont like.  The common people are always going to seek their scientific advice from the other common people that they know or half remembered science lessons they learned 50 years ago or, probably most likely, from what ever advertising that they have seen on TV.

Heck studies have shown that GPs are also influenced on their prescribing habits by the advertisements that they have seen.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 10, 2020, 06:37:06 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1144213
Heck studies have shown that GPs are also influenced on their prescribing habits by the advertisements that they have seen.
You don't have to tell me that. I regularly have to tell doctors NO to certain medications after researching effectiveness (both medically and cost-based), and that's in a specialty practice.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 06:38:05 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144212
I'm reading but I'm truly not comprehending.

This would need a global group of f like minded coordinated people. Some sort of conspiracy likesay. An uncoordinated mess of governments unprepared for a pandemic make much more sense than your idea of organisations deliberately quashing the truth.

Yep, you're not comprehending, and I fear it is because you don't want to, since you quote me explaining how you don't need a conspiracy and yet you insist I'm peddling a conspiracy. Bye Felicia!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144216
Yep, you're not comprehending, and I fear it is because you don't want to, since you quote me explaining how you don't need a conspiracy and yet you insist I'm peddling a conspiracy. Bye Felicia!

Then you're not explaining yourself. Clearly you can't explain yourself. Fair enough I'll accept that your ideas are half-baked nonsense.

I only came into this thread because of a stupid UBI claim. I didn't mean to break somebodies dream.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2020, 06:46:33 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144176
I'm still not sure what the endgame here is. It's clearly not a Conservative endgame because you just posted an anti-Conservative video so what does anybody have to gain by repressing a miracle cure to a pandemic that is killing tens of thousands?


Making Trump look bad.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 06:49:20 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144220
Making Trump look bad.

The World wants to make Donald Trump look bad? Numerous countries are risking the lives of their citizens in a coordinated effort to humiliate him?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2020, 06:50:48 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144221
The World wants to make Donald Trump look bad? Numerous countries are risking the lives of their citizens in a coordinated effort to humiliate him?

Dunno about other countries, but the Democrats here are definitley skewing things in an attempt to drive the "Orange Man Bad" narrative, at nearly any cost.

At a guess, I'd say other countries are just running with the narrative that the far left here in the states are attempting to push.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 10, 2020, 06:54:08 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1144222
Dunno about other countries, but the Democrats here are definitley skewing things in an attempt to drive the "Orange Man Bad" narrative, at nearly any cost.

At a guess, I'd say other countries are just running with the narrative that the far left here in the states are attempting to push.

I think you're giving the influence of the US, and particularly the parts that are not in power, a bit more credit than they deserve in regards to the pandemic.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 10, 2020, 06:57:29 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144221
The World wants to make Donald Trump look bad? Numerous countries are risking the lives of their citizens in a coordinated effort to humiliate him?
That's theRPGsite...keeping the crazy trains running on time is priority 1!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2020, 07:18:21 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144223
I think you're giving the influence of the US, and particularly the parts that are not in power, a bit more credit than they deserve in regards to the pandemic.

I don't. It's simply a narrative they found appealing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_baby_balloon
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 10, 2020, 07:20:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1144224
That's theRPGsite...keeping the crazy trains running on time is priority 1!

You know you want me. ;)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 10, 2020, 07:40:35 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144219
Then you're not explaining yourself. Clearly you can't explain yourself. Fair enough I'll accept that your ideas are half-baked nonsense.

I only came into this thread because of a stupid UBI claim. I didn't mean to break somebodies dream.


Yeah, the one that has in front of him an explanation about how you don't need a conspiracy but insists the one doing the explaining is peddling a conspiracy just did a smart.

You're soooooooooo SMART (In your dreams)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: TNMalt on August 10, 2020, 08:12:43 PM
https://youtu.be/nYdFVY5rmlU
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 10, 2020, 08:36:05 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1144215
You don't have to tell me that. I regularly have to tell doctors NO to certain medications after researching effectiveness (both medically and cost-based), and that's in a specialty practice.


You should check out Ben Goldacres books particularly in this case Bad Pharma (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Bad+Pharma) but Bad Science is good too:

Quote
We like to imagine that medicine is based on evidence and the results of fair testing and clinical trials. In reality, those tests and trials are often profoundly flawed. We like to imagine that doctors who write prescriptions for everything from antidepressants to cancer drugs to heart medication are familiar with the research literature about these drugs, when in reality much of the research is hidden from them by drug companies. We like to imagine that doctors are impartially educated, when in reality much of their education is funded by the pharmaceutical industry. We like to imagine that regulators have some code of ethics and let only effective drugs onto the market, when in reality they approve useless drugs, with data on side effects casually withheld from doctors and patients.All these problems have been shielded from public scrutiny because they are too complex to capture in a sound bite. Ben Goldacre shows that the true scale of this murderous disaster fully reveals itself only when the details are untangled. He believes we should all be able to understand precisely how data manipulation works and how research misconduct in the medical industry affects us on a global scale.With Goldacre's characteristic flair and a forensic attention to detail, Bad Pharma reveals a shockingly broken system in need of regulation. This is the pharmaceutical industry as it has never been seen before.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 10, 2020, 10:30:50 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144209
Sorry but you're being hopelessly niave here. The US medical establishment may have those priorities but that's not true of other countries. Other countries have healthcare systems that aren't dependent on profit and prioritise reducing deaths.

That explains a lot to me. You're viewing the world through a lense perverted by something you see as normal but is anything but. If you only regard it as a national crisis you can't see beyond that.

That is hopelessly niave. You need to broaden your view.

Deliberately disingenuous confirmed.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 11, 2020, 03:03:14 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144230
Yeah, the one that has in front of him an explanation about how you don't need a conspiracy but insists the one doing the explaining is peddling a conspiracy just did a smart.

You're soooooooooo SMART (In your dreams)

But it's not a very good explanation. You've just waved your hands and talked about THEM. Somebody has mentioned a for profit healthcare system which at least covers one country.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2020, 11:08:45 AM
Quote from: Garry G;1144278
But it's not a very good explanation. You've just waved your hands and talked about THEM. Somebody has mentioned a for profit healthcare system which at least covers one country.

"I don't like your explanation therefore you're peddling conspiracy theories hur dur!"
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 11, 2020, 11:42:26 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144311
"I don't like your explanation therefore you're peddling conspiracy theories hur dur!"

Stating the obvious like the imbicile you really are doesnt disprove it. More and more people are starting to call you on your shit, GeekyBitch, and I find it refreshing.

But maybe there's a conspiracy here too...
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 11, 2020, 01:39:01 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144052
jhkim, are you familiar with the Lancet study on hydroxychloroquine? And how it was retracted, after questions came up about the data supplier (Surgisphere), and then Surgisphere just... poofed? (Seriously, that's the only way to describe it. They disappeared like a soap bubble hit by a bullet)

Now do you understand why people are feeling a little hard done-by by the professionals? You want studies on HCQ? Sure, I'm in. Let's DO some studies. But you won't GET those studies because any work will be interpreted as promotion of the Orange Man Bad. And the left cannot give Trump a win, ever.

So, the Surgisphere thing certainly muddied the waters re HCQ, but my understanding is that HCQ is still being trialled in various countries, including the U.S. (along with various other low-cost drugs no longer under patent protection).  Sure the HCQ results aren't stellar at this point, but the studies continue. They ARE being done. I don't see where the alleged  censorship and suppression come in.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 11, 2020, 01:53:27 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1144332
So, the Surgisphere thing certainly muddied the waters re HCQ, but my understanding is that HCQ is still being trialled in various countries, including the U.S. (along with various other low-cost drugs no longer under patent protection).  Sure the HCQ results aren't stellar at this point, but the studies continue. They ARE being done. I don't see where the alleged  censorship and suppression come in.

Because immediately after the Lancet study hit, the FDA hit the brakes on ANY use of HCQ.

You can't tell me that wasn't a coordinated hit. That's NOT how things work.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 11, 2020, 02:05:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144311
"I don't like your explanation therefore you're peddling conspiracy theories hur dur!"

I'm having trouble engaging with your explanation because it amounts to "people are doing stuff for reasons". I'll agree that it's not a conspiracy theory because there's no theory just stuff.

I can engage with the medical establishment profiteering thing. I can see how somebody can get there, it just doesn't scale up in a world of socialised medicine so I can't get any further.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2020, 02:35:42 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144337
I'm having trouble engaging with your explanation because it amounts to "people are doing stuff for reasons". I'll agree that it's not a conspiracy theory because there's no theory just stuff.

I can engage with the medical establishment profiteering thing. I can see how somebody can get there, it just doesn't scale up in a world of socialised medicine so I can't get any further.

In your world of socialized medicine the UK socialized medicine establishment was inflating the death numbers.

It's become crystal clear that either you're being intentionally obtuse or you're just dumb. In the spirit of Hanlon's razor I'm gonna go with you being just dumb.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 11, 2020, 02:50:09 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144341
It's become crystal clear that either you're being intentionally obtuse or you're just dumb. In the spirit of Hanlon's razor I'm gonna go with you being just dumb.

Yes, folks, this is what it looks like when a lizard drops tail and runs.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 11, 2020, 02:51:57 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144335
Because immediately after the Lancet study hit, the FDA hit the brakes on ANY use of HCQ.

You can't tell me that wasn't a coordinated hit. That's NOT how things work.

Well, I had a look at the FDA revocation of emergency use authorization, and it doesn't exactly put the brakes on ANY use of HCQ for Covid. What it says is that because of the health risks, patients must be closely monitored, either in a hospital setting, or as part of a clinical trial. In fact, it encourages doctors who want to prescribe it for Covid to enroll their patients in trials. Sounds like due diligence to me, not slamming the brakes.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 11, 2020, 02:57:55 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144341
In your world of socialized medicine the UK socialized medicine establishment was inflating the death numbers.

It's become crystal clear that either you're being intentionally obtuse or you're just dumb. In the spirit of Hanlon's razor I'm gonna go with you being just dumb.

I'm probably dumb.

The inflation of numbers is a weird thing. The UK government completely fucked up on how to do the numbers so I agree they're not trustworthy. Today they've just stopped providing them.

So that was crap.

At this point we started looking at excess deaths. Excess deaths are interesting because it's about variation from expected deaths in any given period. Weirdly this number has been higher than the UK governments numbers. From this you have to start looking at what's been different over the period, I ruled out trouser related accidents very early because lockdown meant less trouser wearing. So given this massive increase in excess deaths 67,000 last I checked, I'm currently looking at the biggest new killer in the news. I am open to suggestions for this statistic though, there has been an uptick in bicycle sales and they are dangerous.

Just explain it to me. Feel free to talk down as you point at facts and reasonable theories.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2020, 02:59:51 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1144346
I'm probably dumb.

The inflation of numbers is a weird thing. The UK government completely fucked up on how to do the numbers so I agree they're not trustworthy. Today they've just stopped providing them.

So that was crap.

At this point we started looking at excess deaths. Excess deaths are interesting because it's about variation from expected deaths in any given period. Weirdly this number has been higher than the UK governments numbers. From this you have to start looking at what's been different over the period, I ruled out trouser related accidents very early because lockdown meant less trouser wearing. So given this massive increase in excess deaths 67,000 last I checked, I'm currently looking at the biggest new killer in the news. I am open to suggestions for this statistic though, there has been an uptick in bicycle sales and they are dangerous.

Just explain it to me. Feel free to talk down as you point at facts and reasonable theories.

I already did, YOU went and said it was peddling conspiracy theories when I explained how you don't need one, thanks but no thanks I'm not wasting more time on you.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 11, 2020, 03:57:15 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144347
I already did, YOU went and said it was peddling conspiracy theories when I explained how you don't need one, thanks but no thanks I'm not wasting more time on you.

It sure does seem like some people have A LOT invested in pushing a narrative on the internet and will stop at nothing until you agree with them or are destroyed. Almost like some of these accounts are being paid to post...
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 11, 2020, 04:12:02 PM
Quote from: Brad;1144356
Almost like some of these accounts are being paid to post...

The hell? I dunno about you, but posting here is an absolute money-loser for me. Time I could spend doing something else. I can afford it so okay. But  one reason I only post in fits and starts, and don't live here full-time like some.

EDITED TO ADD: I notice you have quite a large number of posts under your belt, any hints on how to monetize this? Maybe I'm missing out.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 11, 2020, 04:15:56 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144347
I already did, YOU went and said it was peddling conspiracy theories when I explained how you don't need one, thanks but no thanks I'm not wasting more time on you.

Quote from: Brad;1144356
It sure does seem like some people have A LOT invested in pushing a narrative on the internet and will stop at nothing until you agree with them or are destroyed. Almost like some of these accounts are being paid to post...

It does appear to be the case. And the vitriol when they get called out for their lies is trivially predictable.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 11, 2020, 04:30:14 PM
Quote from: Brad;1144356
It sure does seem like some people have A LOT invested in pushing a narrative on the internet and will stop at nothing until you agree with them or are destroyed. Almost like some of these accounts are being paid to post...

I'm not sure there would be enough money for me to be paid to post if you're talking about me. Probably cheaper to moonlight in a pub or something. Who would pay me to post and how much would they pay? Asking for a friend.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 11, 2020, 04:34:35 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144347
I already did, YOU went and said it was peddling conspiracy theories when I explained how you don't need one, thanks but no thanks I'm not wasting more time on you.


To be fair you're not taking my answers seriously at all. I've brought up the whole excess death thing a few times and you've not given me a reason for them. Once again I only got pulled into this because of the nonsense UBI claim then you engaged me. We agree that the published death stats from the UK government are nonsense, I give an accepted alternative and you dinghy it. I'm not sure I should be the one being accused of not being up front.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 11, 2020, 04:37:04 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1144360
It does appear to be the case. And the vitriol when they get called out for their lies is trivially predictable.

Shareblue changed their name: https://americanindependent.com/

But it's still the same crap. There are a few other boards I post on that have users admitting they're paid per post, they don't even try to hide their obvious gaslighting attempts.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 12, 2020, 12:16:37 PM
Quote from: Brad;1144367
Shareblue changed their name: https://americanindependent.com/

But it's still the same crap. There are a few other boards I post on that have users admitting they're paid per post, they don't even try to hide their obvious gaslighting attempts.

How does it work though? It seems weird that a website would change their name for more net unless it is a sponsoring thing. That seems to be different from getting big money for posting to a forum for a fairly obscure hobby.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 14, 2020, 06:05:01 AM
New Zealand is never coming out of lockdown, apparently. That's their government's brilliant solution to a seasonal virus they could have had herd immunity to by now.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 14, 2020, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1144830
New Zealand is never coming out of lockdown, apparently. That's their government's brilliant solution to a seasonal virus they could have had herd immunity to by now.

Government surrender any measure of power and control? Perish the thought.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 14, 2020, 09:18:44 AM
Quote from: RandyB;1144844
Government surrender any measure of power and control? Perish the thought.

"Treason ne'er prospers; why, what's the reason?
If it doth prosper, none dare call it treason."
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 14, 2020, 09:54:30 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144847
"Treason ne'er prospers; why, what's the reason?
If it doth prosper, none dare call it treason."

Exactly.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 14, 2020, 05:29:57 PM
Quote from: Kiero;1144830
New Zealand is never coming out of lockdown, apparently. That's their government's brilliant solution to a seasonal virus they could have had herd immunity to by now.


Herd Immunity is Sweden.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 16, 2020, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: Kiero;1144830
New Zealand is never coming out of lockdown, apparently. That's their government's brilliant solution to a seasonal virus they could have had herd immunity to by now.


There's a vaccine? That's how you get herd immunity, by vaccination.

Polio, measles and smallpox didn't disappear because people got them, there were vaccines. Influenza is still deadly to many but it is kept to as low a risk as possible by vaccination. Without a vaccination herd immunity is incredibly unlikely.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on August 16, 2020, 12:10:32 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1145101
There's a vaccine? That's how you get herd immunity, by vaccination.

Polio, measles and smallpox didn't disappear because people got them, there were vaccines. Influenza is still deadly to many but it is kept to as low a risk as possible by vaccination. Without a vaccination herd immunity is incredibly unlikely.

What utter bullshit. We have coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, adenoviruses, noroviruses, influenza and countless others every single year, and acquire herd immunity without vaccination. Influenza is deadly to a small proportion of the most vulnerable, and the vaccine is a total waste of time.

Coronavirus is the common cold, you've had it dozens if not hundreds of times without ever being vaccinated against it. It isn't equivalent to polio, measles or smallpox.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 16, 2020, 01:01:05 PM
Quote from: Kiero;1145102
What utter bullshit. We have coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, adenoviruses, noroviruses, influenza and countless others every single year, and acquire herd immunity without vaccination. Influenza is deadly to a small proportion of the most vulnerable, and the vaccine is a total waste of time.

Coronavirus is the common cold, you've had it dozens if not hundreds of times without ever being vaccinated against it. It isn't equivalent to polio, measles or smallpox.

Numbers wise coronavirus is absolutely equivalent to polio whilst not equivalent to the common cold. We don't aquire herd immunity to any of the stuff you stated.

That was my first response and then I saw the influenza thing. You actually believe that a vaccine against influenza is a waste of time. You think that more people should die of influenza. That's an interesting take on the vaccination debate but one that makes you look a bit daft. Okay, very daft.

I figure you go on some sort of gut feeling, possibly after a heavy meal. Can you cite the coronavirus vs common cold stats? I need a laugh.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 16, 2020, 01:12:45 PM
Quote from: Kiero;1145102
What utter bullshit. We have coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, adenoviruses, noroviruses, influenza and countless others every single year, and acquire herd immunity without vaccination. Influenza is deadly to a small proportion of the most vulnerable, and the vaccine is a total waste of time.

Coronavirus is the common cold, you've had it dozens if not hundreds of times without ever being vaccinated against it. It isn't equivalent to polio, measles or smallpox.
We *don't* have herd immunity to influenza -- that's why people keep getting sick and dying every year through flu season. What makes it less serious is simply that the fatality rate from influenza is very low. Between these four, the fatality rates according to the CDC are:

Influenza: fatality rate 0.02%
Measles: fatality rate 0.2%
Polio: fatality rate from 2% to 10%
Smallpox: fatality rate around 30%

Estimates vary on the fatality rate for covid-19, but most of them are at least 0.2%. The CDC currently puts its best estimate at 0.65%. That makes it more deadly than the measles, but still well below polio and smallpox.

Sources:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html
https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/index.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/about/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 16, 2020, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1145107
We *don't* have herd immunity to influenza -- that's why people keep getting sick and dying every year through flu season. What makes it less serious is simply that the fatality rate from influenza is very low. Between these four, the fatality rates according to the CDC are:

Influenza: fatality rate 0.02%
Measles: fatality rate 0.2%
Polio: fatality rate from 2% to 10%
Smallpox: fatality rate around 30%

Estimates vary on the fatality rate for covid-19, but most of them are at least 0.2%. The CDC currently puts its best estimate at 0.65%. That makes it more deadly than the measles, but still well below polio and smallpox.

Sources:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html
https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/index.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/about/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

Don't you swing your stats around! I happily stand corrected over polio.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 16, 2020, 02:15:35 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1145107
We *don't* have herd immunity to influenza -- that's why people keep getting sick and dying every year through flu season. What makes it less serious is simply that the fatality rate from influenza is very low. Between these four, the fatality rates according to the CDC are:

Influenza: fatality rate 0.02%
Measles: fatality rate 0.2%
Polio: fatality rate from 2% to 10%
Smallpox: fatality rate around 30%

Estimates vary on the fatality rate for covid-19, but most of them are at least 0.2%. The CDC currently puts its best estimate at 0.65%. That makes it more deadly than the measles, but still well below polio and smallpox.

Sources:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/flu.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/meas.html
https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/index.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/about/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html


World death count due to Covid19 (IF their numbers are correct) 771,518 Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data)

World population 7,800,000,000 Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population)

771,518×100÷7,800,000,000 = 0.009891256

USA death count due to Covid19 171,000

USA population 328, 200,000

171000×100÷328200000 = 0.052102377

EDITED to correct the last operation was missing 200k gringos.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 16, 2020, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145116
World death count due to Covid19 (IF their numbers are correct) 771,518 Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data)

World population 7,800,000,000 Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population)

771,518×100÷7,800,000,000 = 0.009891256

USA death count due to Covid19 171,000

USA population 328, 200,000

171000×100÷328000000 = 0.052134146

That is fantastic news and I live in hope that infections don't get so high that the death count becomes directly related to population of any given country. A vaccine would be the absolute best way to avoid that and I hope one becomes available as soon as possible.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 16, 2020, 03:23:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145116
World death count due to Covid19 (IF their numbers are correct) 771,518 Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:COVID-19_pandemic_data)

World population 7,800,000,000 Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population)

771,518×100÷7,800,000,000 = 0.009891256

USA death count due to Covid19 171,000

USA population 328, 200,000

171000×100÷328200000 = 0.052102377

EDITED to correct the last operation was missing 200k gringos.

I'm not sure what you're intending to show from this. Countries vary widely in their number of deaths per population. Right now the U.S. has per capita covid-19 deaths around #8 in the world.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4767[/ATTACH]
Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count

That roughly matches with my own calculations and your calculation. Of course, it's possible that data from some countries are less reliable - like China or Iran - since countries report their own number of deaths. But the point is that the U.S. is not an outlier - it's in the middle of a bunch of countries in reported deaths per capita.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 16, 2020, 04:25:26 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1145126
I'm not sure what you're intending to show from this. Countries vary widely in their number of deaths per population. Right now the U.S. has per capita covid-19 deaths around #8 in the world.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4767[/ATTACH]
Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count

That roughly matches with my own calculations and your calculation. Of course, it's possible that data from some countries are less reliable - like China or Iran - since countries report their own number of deaths. But the point is that the U.S. is not an outlier - it's in the middle of a bunch of countries in reported deaths per capita.

It's called perspective.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 16, 2020, 10:41:50 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1145126
I'm not sure what you're intending to show from this. Countries vary widely in their number of deaths per population. Right now the U.S. has per capita covid-19 deaths around #8 in the world.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4767[/ATTACH]
Source: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count

That roughly matches with my own calculations and your calculation. Of course, it's possible that data from some countries are less reliable - like China or Iran - since countries report their own number of deaths. But the point is that the U.S. is not an outlier - it's in the middle of a bunch of countries in reported deaths per capita.

That works out to a little over 46 deaths per 100,000.

Interestingly enough, if we subtract just two states (NY and NJ), the death rate for the rest of the US drops by more than 10 to slightly over 35 deaths/100K. That's a 24% drop, and below France, Mexico, and Brazil.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/NY,NJ,US/PST045219
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 17, 2020, 03:08:20 PM
Quote from: Pat;1145166
That works out to a little over 46 deaths per 100,000.

Interestingly enough, if we subtract just two states (NY and NJ), the death rate for the rest of the US drops by more than 10 to slightly over 35 deaths/100K. That's a 24% drop, and below France, Mexico, and Brazil.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/NY,NJ,US/PST045219
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/

I agree about the numbers - but why would you exclude NY and NJ? With any country, if you exclude the previous hot spots, then you'll decrease the total. For example, if you exclude Sao Paolo from Brazil, then it decreases even more sharply. The Sao Paolo deaths are nearly a quarter of the country's. With any of these large countries, there will be previous hot spots that boost the total, as well as up-and-coming hot spots that are coming into play. The deaths are never evenly spread.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 17, 2020, 03:42:31 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1145280
I agree about the numbers - but why would you exclude NY and NJ? With any country, if you exclude the previous hot spots, then you'll decrease the total. For example, if you exclude Sao Paolo from Brazil, then it decreases even more sharply. The Sao Paolo deaths are nearly a quarter of the country's. With any of these large countries, there will be previous hot spots that boost the total, as well as up-and-coming hot spots that are coming into play. The deaths are never evenly spread.

Why would you separate out the UK from Europe? Because this isn't a disease that uniformly affects an entire region. Even the country level is imprecise, with Lombardy being overwhelmed in Italy, with the rest of the country being much less affected. And the US isn't equivalent to a European country, it's equivalent to the whole continent. Separating out even one or two hotspots helps show how concentrated the deaths are, and starts to highlight how little other areas have been affected.

And in this specific case, it highlights how many people Andrew Cuomo killed.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 19, 2020, 10:48:09 AM
https://c19study.com/

So...we still going to pretend HCQ is an "unproven drug" as it relates to mitigating Chinavirus problems? "But aliens! Double-blind clinical trials! FAUCIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!"
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 19, 2020, 03:46:45 PM
Quote from: Brad;1145500
https://c19study.com/

So...we still going to pretend HCQ is an "unproven drug" as it relates to mitigating Chinavirus problems? "But aliens! Double-blind clinical trials! FAUCIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!"

What is your standard of proof? Is it proven solely by website itself? The domain was created in June 5, 2020 by anonymous people who claim "We are PhD researchers, scientists, people who hope to make a contribution, even if it is only very minor." It is on the same server as three other domains:

https://c19hcq.com/   (a mirror of the material)
https://c19death.com/    (returns raw content "you are awesome")
https://c19perspective.com/   (returns raw content "you are awesome")

It claims to document all possible papers - but I don't yet see any endorsement or support that it accurately represents what it purports to. For example, I do see that it does not include one of the few randomized trials that have been done, this one:

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4207

It does include the Boulware et al randomized trial, but it categorizes it as "positive" when the paper's conclusion was that there was no benefit. It classifies this as "see notes" and links to this page.

https://c19study.com/boulware.html

They show a graph and quote claiming that there is a benefit, then link to the NEJM paper. However, the graph they post doesn't appear anywhere in the paper or in the comments on it. I can't find the source of that graph or quote below it.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 19, 2020, 04:15:03 PM
More broadly to Brad -- I don't want to be dismissive or hostile. I accepted your source and tried to read through it seriously. I posted on some inconsistencies that I found in what I saw there, but I am willing to continue to read more on the subject.

I would like genuine debate on the subject. Science should not be political, I feel, and so our political differences shouldn't prevent discussing about standards of proof and the actual evidence in this case.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 20, 2020, 04:33:02 AM
Quote from: Garry G;1145117
A vaccine would be the absolute best way to avoid that and I hope one becomes available as soon as possible.

We have flu vaccines and we average 36,000 deaths annually in the USA from the flu (80k in 2018), so there is zero reason to believe a vaccine rushed through research, testing and into production is gonna be a panacea.

Plus, we'll see how many people even will take the CoronaChan vaccine. I doubt 50%, probably less if the vaccine is multi-step/multi-dose or needed annually.

The Stanford study from months ago proved the actual infection rate is at least 5 times (maybe 20 times) the number of known cases (confirmed by the LA study and the NY study, etc) and we've known the death numbers have been manipulated to the point of absurdity, so worrying about the Kung Flu sniffles with its 99.9% survival rate is becoming more laughable by the day.

But wear your face diapers! Or the boogie virus gonna getcha!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 20, 2020, 08:03:14 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1145641
We have flu vaccines and we average 36,000 deaths annually in the USA from the flu (80k in 2018), so there is zero reason to believe a vaccine rushed through research, testing and into production is gonna be a panacea.

There are some promising candidates, but it's worth remembering that lengthy and thorough clinical trials for vaccines exist for a reason.

https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/here-s-why-we-can-t-rush-covid-19-vaccine
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 20, 2020, 08:31:34 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1145641
We have flu vaccines and we average 36,000 deaths annually in the USA from the flu (80k in 2018), so there is zero reason to believe a vaccine rushed through research, testing and into production is gonna be a panacea.

Plus, we'll see how many people even will take the CoronaChan vaccine. I doubt 50%, probably less if the vaccine is multi-step/multi-dose or needed annually.

The Stanford study from months ago proved the actual infection rate is at least 5 times (maybe 20 times) the number of known cases (confirmed by the LA study and the NY study, etc) and we've known the death numbers have been manipulated to the point of absurdity, so worrying about the Kung Flu sniffles with its 99.9% survival rate is becoming more laughable by the day.

But wear your face diapers! Or the boogie virus gonna getcha!

The effects of influenza even with a vaccine is what's worrying me right now. We're soon going to be in the part of the year when healthcare systems are overloaded due to flu. There isn't much give for a spike in another virus. So yeah please wear your face nappy to stop spreading shit around.

In the end I hope you're right though. I have absolutely no ideological opinion on this. I hope that it all just blows over and we can get back to a normal life.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jeff37923 on August 20, 2020, 04:02:17 PM
Taking a look at New York City and what its liberal democrat leadership has done to it.

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 21, 2020, 11:27:52 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1145541
What is your standard of proof?


Results.

There are countless thousands of people who have benefited from HCQ to mitigate the effects of COVID-19; the ONLY argument against its effectiveness is based purely on religious dogma passed off as "science".
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on August 21, 2020, 11:55:20 AM
Quote from: Brad;1145832
Results.

There are countless thousands of people who have benefited from HCQ to mitigate the effects of COVID-19; the ONLY argument against its effectiveness is based purely on religious dogma passed off as "science".

You forgot politics.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 21, 2020, 12:35:38 PM
Quote from: Brad;1145832
Results.

There are countless thousands of people who have benefited from HCQ to mitigate the effects of COVID-19; the ONLY argument against its effectiveness is based purely on religious dogma passed off as "science".

And here we see B-rad's stupidity again. His "countless thousands" which either means he can't fucking count--because thousands means there's a number (and that can be counted)--or he's just pulling nonsense from his gaping twat. B-rad complains about science but can't even grasp numbers, hilarious.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 21, 2020, 01:05:06 PM
Quote from: Brad;1145832
Results.

There are countless thousands of people who have benefited from HCQ to mitigate the effects of COVID-19; the ONLY argument against its effectiveness is based purely on religious dogma passed off as "science".


The only argument against its effectiveness are results from people using the scientific method who possibly counted the numbers? I'm sorry but I'm wary about the use of the word countless as a standard of proof. I like counting to be part of the process, I'm happy for the counting to be questioned as in the amount of deaths but some counting would be good. It doesn't have to be fancy counting either just counting.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 21, 2020, 01:16:14 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1145853
The only argument against its effectiveness are results from people using the scientific method who possibly counted the numbers? I'm sorry but I'm wary about the use of the word countless as a standard of proof. I like counting to be part of the process, I'm happy for the counting to be questioned as in the amount of deaths but some counting would be good. It doesn't have to be fancy counting either just counting.

Sure
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 21, 2020, 01:20:04 PM
Quote from: Brad;1145856
Sure

Thank God you agree.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 21, 2020, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: Garry G;1145857
Thank God you agree.

Whatever floats your boat, ace.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on August 21, 2020, 02:05:10 PM
Quote from: Brad;1145860
Whatever floats your boat, ace.

Teckle
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 21, 2020, 02:32:05 PM
Hey, Brad. I'm glad that you want to support non-politicized science, which is a principle I agree with. In Post #436 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42126-Covid-the-quot-lockdowns-quot-etc&p=1145541&viewfull=1#post1145541), I had some specific criticisms of the c19study.com site. Have you looked at those?

Quote from: jhkim;1145541
It claims to document all possible papers - but I don't yet see any endorsement or support that it accurately represents what it purports to. For example, I do see that it does not include one of the few randomized trials that have been done, this one:

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-4207

It does include the Boulware et al randomized trial, but it categorizes it as "positive" when the paper's conclusion was that there was no benefit. It classifies this as "see notes" and links to this page.

https://c19study.com/boulware.html

They show a graph and quote claiming that there is a benefit, then link to the NEJM paper. However, the graph they post doesn't appear anywhere in the paper or in the comments on it. I can't find the source of that graph or quote below it.

I'd ask that you look at the c19study page on Boulware et al, and then compare to the paper itself. There appears to be a serious disconnect, and I can't find the source of the graph or quote that they present. Can you suggest where c19study gets that graph?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 23, 2020, 05:11:58 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1145865
Hey, Brad. I'm glad that you want to support non-politicized science, which is a principle I agree with. In Post #436 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42126-Covid-the-quot-lockdowns-quot-etc&p=1145541&viewfull=1#post1145541), I had some specific criticisms of the c19study.com site. Have you looked at those?

I'd ask that you look at the c19study page on Boulware et al, and then compare to the paper itself. There appears to be a serious disconnect, and I can't find the source of the graph or quote that they present. Can you suggest where c19study gets that graph?

I'm responding to this post with a simple, "Not interested in discussing it further." You have your head so far up your own ass it's not even funny. For a scientist, you have an EXTREMELY politicized opinion about everything; and it's worse because you're so deluded about it not being political. So, yeah, whatever, IDGAF.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 23, 2020, 09:59:44 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1145865
Hey, Brad. I'm glad that you want to support non-politicized science, which is a principle I agree with. In Post #436 (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42126-Covid-the-quot-lockdowns-quot-etc&p=1145541&viewfull=1#post1145541), I had some specific criticisms of the c19study.com site. Have you looked at those?

I'd ask that you look at the c19study page on Boulware et al, and then compare to the paper itself. There appears to be a serious disconnect, and I can't find the source of the graph or quote that they present. Can you suggest where c19study gets that graph?
Quote from: Brad;1146173
I'm responding to this post with a simple, "Not interested in discussing it further." You have your head so far up your own ass it's not even funny. For a scientist, you have an EXTREMELY politicized opinion about everything; and it's worse because you're so deluded about it not being political. So, yeah, whatever, IDGAF.

Well, thanks at least for giving a clear answer.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 23, 2020, 10:43:00 PM
MediaBear is YouTube musician who's been doing great parody videos of 80s songs about the CoronaChan nonsense. He also did Safety Mask  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONfvD8hbofo)and I Wear My Face Mask in The Car (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DDXG-dHugc).

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 23, 2020, 11:34:32 PM
Quote from: Brad;1145500
So...we still going to pretend HCQ is an "unproven drug" as it relates to mitigating Chinavirus problems?


Yes.

Quote from: Pat;1145653
There are some promising candidates, but it's worth remembering that lengthy and thorough clinical trials for vaccines exist for a reason.





Quote from: Garry G;1145659
The effects of influenza even with a vaccine is what's worrying me right now. We're soon going to be in the part of the year when healthcare systems are overloaded due to flu.


Can't wait for more TikTok nurse dance videos and footage of empty hospitals!


Quote from: Garry G;1145659
So yeah please wear your face nappy to stop spreading shit around.


Fuck that!

The fearmongers keep telling me that I'll kill everyone if I don't wear a mask, but it's been months and I still have neighbors!!!

Masks are bullshit and the China Virus has a 99.8% recovery rate. The face diaper nonsense is an amazing test to see how many people will submit to fear and obey propaganda.

As a student of Sun Tzu and Machiavelli, I bow deeply to China's Emperor Winnie the Pooh and our world's hidden masters. I hope they're reptilians!


Quote from: Garry G;1145659
I hope that it all just blows over and we can get back to a normal life.


It won't blow over until (a) the shamdemic no longer has any political value or (b) citizens force the gov't to end the sham.


Quote from: jeff37923;1145729
Taking a look at New York City and what its liberal democrat leadership has done to it.


I grew up in the scary 70s NYC, but as a kid you don't have perspective. We'd hear gunshots, look around and go back to playing stickball and the girls would return to their sidewalk teaparty. We found dead bums twice, saw lots of chalk outlines, and dodged out of the street when the cops and ambulances would go flying past. [the street is where the stickball field was located]

NYC will become interesting because Comrade DeBlasio doesn't leave until after December 31, 2021 and he's full tilt lunatic at this point with zero incentive to not overdrive his far left agenda. If Trump wins re-election, he'll support the post-election riots and when the Fentanyl Floyd trial goes sideways, he'll support the BLM 2: Fire Bomb Boogaloo, plus he'll do the 2nd Wave CoronaHoax to the max so by the time he's done, Paul Joseph Watson will have to do another video called "New York is a Double Mega Shithole!" But this is what New Yorkers voted for. Just like every other leftist city.

Of course, the exodus of NYC wealth will accelerate, and that will cause its own cascade of disasters. AKA, "trickle down economics" isn't "nice", but its vital to most major cities.

And that's fine. It just means NYC will be the hot spot for rebuilding and reinvestment in the 2030s.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 24, 2020, 07:50:32 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146196
And that's fine. It just means NYC will be the hot spot for rebuilding and reinvestment in the 2030s.

If they are "lucky".  If not, they'll go the Detroit route, and it will take them 50 years to even start pulling their heads out of their collective asses.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 24, 2020, 09:21:12 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1146190
Well, thanks at least for giving a clear answer.

https://youtu.be/x5u-lJNsO7A?t=4420

https://medicine.yale.edu/profile/harvey_risch/

Going back on my statement somewhat and apologizing; I realize you were trying to be honest here (and I was drunk when I posted that...it was a long week). Watch that video (about the 1:30 mark, the link has the time queued up) and tell me you think this whole thing isn't political theater. Dr. Risch is literally putting his entire career in jeopardy to expose the bullshit being passed off as "science". He also gives some interesting info about Saint Fauci...

Also RE: masks - https://mobile.twitter.com/TomFitton/status/1297551231620194304

So yeah...total bullshit.

Bonus content: https://twitter.com/Politi_Chatter/status/1297315324895932416
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2020, 10:58:07 AM
For those who are interested in herd immunity, why we may have reached it ahead of expectations, and why there's a good chance there won't be a second wave in the more heavily affected areas:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.27.20081893v3
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.23.20160762v1
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6505/846?_ga=2.106785153.3660080.1597510732-1307329675.1597510732
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/52/7/911/299077
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-tricky-math-of-covid-19-herd-immunity-20200630/

Quick answer: Heterogeneity. The models that predicted herd immunity would be reached at 60–70% assume everyone in the population is equally susceptible to the disease, which is not how diseases work. Different people have different levels of susceptibility, and those who are easier to infect tend to get the disease earlier, meaning the remaining population gets more and more and more resistant. Estimates and models that account for this range from about 40%, down to 20% or lower. If the latter is correct, places like the UK and NYC have probably reached it. An additional note is this is affected by population and circumstances as well (anything that changes the R0), so places or populations with lower risk, like rural or humid areas, will reach herd immunity even sooner.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 24, 2020, 05:29:48 PM
Hi, Brad. Thanks for continuing discussion. I did still want to address my concerns about the site c13study.com, though. Did you look at both the paper and the c13study page I linked? That seems like a big discrepancy. If you're just dropping the point, then it feels like you're just ignoring what I say, and if I find fault in your next source, you could just drop that and pick up another. Do you still feel that the c13study.com site is reliable? Where do they get that graph and quote?


Quote from: Brad;1146233
https://youtu.be/x5u-lJNsO7A?t=4420

https://medicine.yale.edu/profile/harvey_risch/

Going back on my statement somewhat and apologizing; I realize you were trying to be honest here (and I was drunk when I posted that...it was a long week). Watch that video (about the 1:30 mark, the link has the time queued up) and tell me you think this whole thing isn't political theater. Dr. Risch is literally putting his entire career in jeopardy to expose the bullshit being passed off as "science". He also gives some interesting info about Saint Fauci...
I watched briefly, but now the video has been taken down off of Youtube. I'm willing to watch it and give feedback if it is hosted somewhere else, but I didn't note down the exact title for further search.


Quote from: Brad;1146233
Also RE: masks - https://mobile.twitter.com/TomFitton/status/1297551231620194304

So yeah...total bullshit.

I don't get that conclusion from the text. The Tweet is showing text from this page:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/public-health-recommendations.html

Below is the text which was highlighted in the Tweet. The bold section is my emphasis.

Quote
While research indicates masks may help those who are infected from spreading the infection, there is less information regarding whether masks offer any protection for a contact exposed to a symptomatic or asymptomatic patient. Therefore, the determination of close contact should be made irrespective of whether the person with COVID-19 or the contact was wearing a mask. Because the general public has not received training on proper selection and use of respiratory PPE, it cannot be certain whether respiratory PPE worn during contact with an individual with COVID-19 infection protected them from exposure.

So what this is saying is that masks can help prevent spread, but they are not a sure thing. Rather, they reduce chances fractionally. Further, masks are often misused - like not covering one's nose, for example, which I frequently see in my area.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 24, 2020, 06:09:51 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1146283
So what this is saying is that masks can help prevent spread, but they are not a sure thing. Rather, they reduce chances fractionally. Further, masks are often misused - like not covering one's nose, for example, which I frequently see in my area.

Amazing how many gamers will push for every +5% bonus in a game but not in real life.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2020, 06:36:28 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146287
Amazing how many gamers will push for every +5% bonus in a game but not in real life.
Real life is a bit more visceral than fantasyland. Wearing heavy armor 24/7 is a lot less appealing when the player has to wear heavy armor, same with something like masks.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 24, 2020, 07:50:10 PM
Quote from: Pat;1146289
Real life is a bit more visceral than fantasyland. Wearing heavy armor 24/7 is a lot less appealing when the player has to wear heavy armor, same with something like masks.

Good lord, what the fuck kind of mask are you wearing that equates to heavy armor?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2020, 08:02:36 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146301
Good lord, what the fuck kind of mask are you wearing that equates to heavy armor?
Is there a facepalm emoji?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 24, 2020, 08:25:33 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146301
Good lord, what the fuck kind of mask are you wearing that equates to heavy armor?

The fucking good kind that normies are not allowed to buy.

You know, the kind that actually can filter virus particles.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 24, 2020, 08:25:36 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1146216
If they are "lucky".  If not, they'll go the Detroit route, and it will take them 50 years to even start pulling their heads out of their collective asses.


NYC cycles faster because its the major Atlantic port, national finance center and has 500 years of history and myth. It's a great example of the concept of "Good Times makes Weak Men, Weak Men make Bad Times, Bad Times make Strong Men, Strong Men make Good Times" and the cycle continues.

And yes, I said MEN because MEN drive civilization. When the Strong Men arise from the coming Bad Times, you can bet there will be a reckoning for feminism. Feminism, SJWism, constant crying about microaggressions, etc can only exist in Good Times.


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146287
Amazing how many gamers will push for every +5% bonus in a game but not in real life.


You have discovered the fabled MASK OF COVID!!! It grants you +1 save vs. minor disease, but your PC now has Disadvantage to all INT and WIS rolls.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 24, 2020, 09:31:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1146283
So what this is saying is that masks can help prevent spread, but they are not a sure thing. Rather, they reduce chances fractionally. Further, masks are often misused - like not covering one's nose, for example, which I frequently see in my area.

Whenever flu season is afoot, I try to avoid anyone who looks sick, I wash my hands and use handsan, cover my mouth when I sneeze, etc. All of that is infinitely more effective than some dumbass mask that literally doesn't do much because people don't have the right kind (try finding them) or wear them incorrectly. Unless you're wearing an NBC suit, good luck avoiding a virus from some dude sneezing into a bandana. Masks are just optics; that's it.

RE: video
https://www.bitchute.com/video/6TSA46UvJWSH/

Starts at about 20 minutes in. That directly addresses the first part of your post.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: SHARK on August 24, 2020, 09:54:06 PM
Greetings!

The CDC says MASKS don't do a fucking thing. NO FUCKING EVIDENCE. Watch the video with Tucker Carlson.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2020, 10:17:17 PM
Quote from: Brad;1146317
Whenever flu season is afoot, I try to avoid anyone who looks sick, I wash my hands and use handsan, cover my mouth when I sneeze, etc. All of that is infinitely more effective than some dumbass mask that literally doesn't do much because people don't have the right kind (try finding them) or wear them incorrectly. Unless you're wearing an NBC suit, good luck avoiding a virus from some dude sneezing into a bandana. Masks are just optics; that's it.
Yes, you need a seriously hardcore mask if you want to stop someone from walking up to you and squeezing a nanoscale virus through one of the holes. But Sars2 doesn't travel alone,  it's suspended in droplets that are projected from your nose and mouth when you sneeze, cough, and speak. Those droplets are then carried in the air until they are precipitated onto a surface. So you don't need to stop the virus, you just need a barrier that aborts or redirects the airflow, or catches some of the droplets. This isn't perfect immunity, but that's not what we're looking for. The R0 is about lowering the odds of infection, and even a crappy mask works because you don't spray as much over anyone near you.

https://www.nist.gov/blogs/taking-measure/my-stay-home-lab-shows-how-face-coverings-can-slow-spread-disease
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 24, 2020, 10:19:28 PM
Quote from: Pat;1146324
Yes, you need a seriously hardcore mask if you want to stop someone from walking up to you and squeezing a nanoscale virus through one of the holes. But Sars2 doesn't travel alone,  it's suspended in droplets that are projected from your nose and mouth when you sneeze, cough, and speak. Those droplets are then carried in the air until they are precipitated onto a surface. So don't need to stop the virus, you just need a barrier that aborts or redirects the airflow, or catches some of the droplets. This isn't perfect immunity, but that's not what we're looking for. It's about lowering the odds of infection, aka the R0, and even a crappy mask works because it reduces your chance of being infected and reduces other people's chance of catching what you have.

https://www.nist.gov/blogs/taking-measure/my-stay-home-lab-shows-how-face-coverings-can-slow-spread-disease

Counterargument: https://www.realhealthynews.com/swedish-dr-fauci-says-mask-evidence-doesnt-pass-sniff-test/
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 24, 2020, 10:27:46 PM
Quote from: Brad;1146326
Counterargument: https://www.realhealthynews.com/swedish-dr-fauci-says-mask-evidence-doesnt-pass-sniff-test/
I agree with what he's saying: "But to start with having face masks and then think you can crowd your buses or your shopping malls--that's definitely a mistake." Yes, if you use masks as an excuse to crowd people together, you're probably making things worse than you would if you kept people apart and maskless.

Which is not a counterargument against the effectiveness of masks. It's a counterargument against stupid.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 24, 2020, 11:13:57 PM
Amazing how a bandana stops the megadeadly CoronaEbola, but Hanes + Levis have zero chance against a fart.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 25, 2020, 10:46:18 AM
In my neck of the woods, what I'm seeing is that the best thing the mask does (and maybe the only effective thing) is remind people to pay attention to keeping some distance, not rubbing their eyes, etc.  It even works on people not wearing the mask, because they see other people doing it!  Those hand made crochet masks with loops so broad that you fit a straw through them work just as well for that.

Since that's all psychological, you could get most of the benefits by wearing colorful wristbands or anything else that is a more forceful example of the old "tie a piece of string around your finger to remember to do something" trick.

In most stores, you could get 80% to 90% of that benefit by simply requiring the mask when going in and checking out.  Then just leave it hanging on your neck while shopping.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on August 25, 2020, 12:13:35 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1146370
In my neck of the woods, what I'm seeing is that the best thing the mask does (and maybe the only effective thing) is remind people to pay attention to keeping some distance, not rubbing their eyes, etc.  It even works on people not wearing the mask, because they see other people doing it!  Those hand made crochet masks with loops so broad that you fit a straw through them work just as well for that.

Really?  Here in Soviet Canuckistan the masks are a sacred talisman that allows one to violate the social distancing.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 25, 2020, 12:24:50 PM
Quote from: KingCheops;1146379
Really?  Here in Soviet Canuckistan the masks are a sacred talisman that allows one to violate the social distancing.

Yes, we've got our share of Karen's, but they are a little restrained by the threat of a "bless your heart" comeback.  It's very clear that a lot of people are wearing the mask only the minimum necessary and as a form of politeness:  "I don't think this does anything, but if it makes that elderly couple in the store feel a little safer, no skin off my nose," kind of attitude.  I've heard many people say that in one form or another.  Also heard a lot of, "Do you want me to put this mask on?  No, ok, no problem."
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 25, 2020, 03:05:52 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1146380
Yes, we've got our share of Karen's, but they are a little restrained by the threat of a "bless your heart" comeback.  It's very clear that a lot of people are wearing the mask only the minimum necessary and as a form of politeness:  "I don't think this does anything, but if it makes that elderly couple in the store feel a little safer, no skin off my nose," kind of attitude.  I've heard many people say that in one form or another.  Also heard a lot of, "Do you want me to put this mask on?  No, ok, no problem."

That's pretty much my take on this. The elderly couple may not only feel safer, they may actually be safer. I've no idea how much, but even if the benefits to that couple are incremental, me wearing a mask in indoor public spaces is a tiny, tiny sacrifice to make for them. Not to mention, that elderly couple are my neighbours.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 25, 2020, 03:17:45 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1146403
That's pretty much my take on this. The elderly couple may not only feel safer, they may actually be safer. I've no idea how much, but even if the benefits to that couple are incremental, me wearing a mask in indoor public spaces is a tiny, tiny sacrifice to make for them. Not to mention, that elderly couple are my neighbours.

Holy shit! A mature, responsible attitude towards masking--on the RPGsite of all places! Wow...

And thank you.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 25, 2020, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146408
Holy shit! A mature, responsible attitude towards masking--on the RPGsite of all places! Wow...

And thank you.

Um...you're welcome....

Catching up on the back traffic around here I have a sense that you are now persona non grata and your endorsement can only be a rod for my back! LOL! But whatever. It does seem like this is being blown up into some kind of "Man in the Iron Mask" imprisonment when it is really so much less.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2020, 04:43:17 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1146413
Catching up on the back traffic around here I have a sense that you are now persona non grata and your endorsement can only be a rod for my back! LOL! But whatever.

Fuck the reputation economy. Don't react to people based on what other people might think of you, and assume they are a whole bunch of things because that's what you've been told. React to people based on what they say, and judge them based on your own assessments.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Zirunel on August 25, 2020, 04:53:49 PM
Quote from: Pat;1146418
Fuck the reputation economy. Don't react to people based on what other people might think of you, and assume they are a whole bunch of things because that's what you've been told. React to people based on what they say, and judge them based on your own assessments.

What I said. I'm not backtracking based on any "reputation economy." Just making an observation. To wit: you step out of line and suddenly you're an "SJW."

I'll concede, I'm still catching up, so maybe that's not a fair assessment. But so far, it's looking that way.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 25, 2020, 05:31:58 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1146421
What I said. I'm not backtracking based on any "reputation economy." Just making an observation. To wit: you step out of line and suddenly you're an "SJW."

I'll concede, I'm still catching up, so maybe that's not a fair assessment. But so far, it's looking that way.

You seem to be arguing in good faith.  The HD, not so much.  That's the difference between a liberal and a SJW.  Worse, he's a SJW pretending (badly) to be a conservative.  I'll take honest disagreement over lying any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Besides, I'm not so sure that HD isn't the banned Trippy Hippy as a sock puppet.  There are a lot of similarities in their "arguments".
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 25, 2020, 06:14:26 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1146421
What I said. I'm not backtracking based on any "reputation economy." Just making an observation. To wit: you step out of line and suddenly you're an "SJW."

I'll concede, I'm still catching up, so maybe that's not a fair assessment. But so far, it's looking that way.

That's pretty much the kind of thing I saw and why I throw profanity, scorn, and ridicule at several other posters that think their shit doesn't stink. In reality, I'm easygoing and sensible, but around here, that's actually a poor fit for the tone of the site, so I decided to rebuild my character for this game.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 25, 2020, 06:18:12 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1146428
You seem to be arguing in good faith.  The HD, not so much.  That's the difference between a liberal and a SJW.  Worse, he's a SJW pretending (badly) to be a conservative.  I'll take honest disagreement over lying any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Besides, I'm not so sure that HD isn't the banned Trippy Hippy as a sock puppet.  There are a lot of similarities in their "arguments".

Oh, fuck you dude. I'm entirely my own self. If you care enough, go look through 4 years of my posting, you dumbass motherfucker. When someone wants to engage without the tired-ass SJW bullshit whenever someone disagrees, then you'll see my reasoned arguments. But for the moronic NPCs of this site (and yes, son, you qualify), well they can eat shit.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 25, 2020, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1146436
That's pretty much the kind of thing I saw and why I throw profanity, scorn, and ridicule at several other posters that think their shit doesn't stink. In reality, I'm easygoing and sensible, but around here, that's actually a poor fit for the tone of the site, so I decided to rebuild my character for this game.


Heh, easy going like a brick to the head. ;)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 25, 2020, 08:06:13 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1146452
Heh, easy going like a brick to the head. ;)

Only on Tuesdays.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on August 25, 2020, 08:30:28 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;1146421
Just making an observation. To wit: you step out of line and suddenly you're an "SJW."
I can't tell you how many conversations I've had where I post X, someone decides that means I support Y, and then goes off on me for supporting Y. I reply by saying no, I don't support Y, I just said X. Which you'd think would end it, because not only didn't I express any kind of support for Y, I never even mentioned it. And then I explicitly denied it. And even if all that wasn't sufficient, who's the subject matter expert on what I believe? Me, or someone with whom I've only exchanged a handful of posts? The only correct response would be to backtrack, and respond to what I actually said. But that never happens. Instead, they invariably double down, and keep attacking me for supporting Y.

This the result of manichean groupthink, where people have mentally divided the world into sides. Usually there are just 2, but occasionally there's some grudging acceptance of a small subset of heterodox positions. And then they look for signals that they use to immediately and irrevocably categorize people into one of those mental boxes. The signals they use to classify people are invariably trivial, not substantive. At most they're a single issue litmus test; at least, they're often just based on the use of a phrase or a term.

The reason the signals have to be superficial is because until you're slotted into one of their boxes, they can't respond. They only have a limited set of arguments, tailored to those prefabricated, imaginary mental models, so they can't deal with anything beyond that. Even their arguments aren't arguments in any real sense, because arguing involves listening to what the other person says, and responding to that. They're incapable of dealing with real people, with complex and contradictory beliefs. The boxes don't represent the human diversity of thought, they're just caricatures, imaginary goblins, or boogeymen.

If fear is the mind-killer, this is the conversation-killer. I typically make the mistake of trying to explain what I really believe, but it never works. And there's no way to advance the conversation, because it inevitably circles back to "I didn't say that".
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 25, 2020, 10:03:18 PM
It's more than just stepping out of line and being jusdged an SJW. It's as PAt posted unless one push and encourages the carefully constructed personal narratives either one is both an enemy and not worth listening to.

To use an example of an ex-friend who once Trump came into power in 2016 went full SJW and kept complaining more and more about what I was posting in my feed. He knew full well the way I feel and think about certain subjects yet I was still a "bad" person for thinking differently. n my end I was willing to let bygones be bygones though I muted his Facebook feed and ignored his SJW outbursts in person. An example of his narrative was how myself and more Liberal friend of ours were having a discussion about the how the new casting of a black Batwoman was done as a diversity hire and SJW response was to call us racist and misogynistic. When it clearly is a diversity hire. The original character has always been white and pointing out a race swap in a TV show to appease SJW is racist. Yeah don't piss on my leg and tell me it is not raining.

I expect many to suffer full mental breakdowns if Trump wins as many are so certain of their positions, opinions and narratives on subjects that reality has a way of going against the narrative. In essence it is not about having a difference of opinion and being called and SJW. It is wanting to live ones life with an echo chamber and when people don't give one said echo chamber they become the enemy. Non-SJWs act like that too except more and more except that the SJWs outnumber those that are not.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on August 26, 2020, 08:47:03 AM
Many SJWs are also social chameloeons claiming not to be an SJW yet seeing their actions in and out of the net they are pretty much SJWs. While claiming otherwise which is a smokescreen for the behavior and bullshit.

HZ claims to be a "conservative" yet in the thread about What does Conservatism mean to you is nowhere to be seen. If he really is a Conservative which is highly doubt why is he not posting in a thread about any and all things Conservative. It's more of their bullshit to let others think they are one of the gang yet very much apart of it.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 26, 2020, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1146535
Many SJWs are also social chameloeons claiming not to be an SJW yet seeing their actions in and out of the net they are pretty much SJWs. While claiming otherwise which is a smokescreen for the behavior and bullshit.

HZ claims to be a "conservative" yet in the thread about What does Conservatism mean to you is nowhere to be seen. If he really is a Conservative which I highly doubt why is he not posting in a thread about any and all things Conservative. It's more of their bullshit to let others think they are one of the gang yet very much apart of it.

Maybe because I'm working M-F you dumbass and I'll save making long posts for the weekend.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 26, 2020, 10:52:33 AM
Quote from: Pat;1146459


This the result of manichean groupthink, where people have mentally divided the world into sides. Usually there are just 2, but occasionally there's some grudging acceptance of a small subset of heterodox positions. And then they look for signals that they use to immediately and irrevocably categorize people into one of those mental boxes. The signals they use to classify people are invariably trivial, not substantive. At most they're a single issue litmus test; at least, they're often just based on the use of a phrase or a term.

The reason the signals have to be superficial is because until you're slotted into one of their boxes, they can't respond. They only have a limited set of arguments, tailored to those prefabricated, imaginary mental models, so they can't deal with anything beyond that. Even their arguments aren't arguments in any real sense, because arguing involves listening to what the other person says, and responding to that. They're incapable of dealing with real people, with complex and contradictory beliefs. The boxes don't represent the human diversity of thought, they're just caricatures, imaginary goblins, or boogeymen.


That can happen.  What can also happen is that a troll will depend on everyone else playing by those criteria and giving the most charitable interpretation possible to everything said--and then will play stupid troll tricks with that.  Some of the smarter ones obviously even really enjoy it, but not everywhere has that class of trolls.  Moreover, I distinguish the pure "troll" here from those who push right up that line with extreme debate techniques.  That is, they don't really care what anyone really thinks--they are in it to "win" the argument.  

Normal people will only put up with troll behavior for so long.  Normal people will only put up with the "debate" when it is clearly called out--frequently with an agreed upon premise from which the debate can begin.  We've all been in that room where several people are having a conversation about what they believe.  It's usually mild.  Maybe a few questions for clarifications.  Then "that guy" has to turn it into a debate while pretending it is still just a conversation.  Pretty soon, it isn't mild anymore.  I'll sometimes tell them if you want to have a debate, let's have a debate.  We'll pick a starting point and go from there.  No, no, don't want to do that, we are just talking.  Bullshit.  

Now, sometimes the person that pulls that trick doesn't understand social cues, especially young, supposedly "college educated" males.  I can sympathize--been there, done that, got the T-shirt a long time ago.  After enough times of not getting the hint, you stop talking to them.  Especially if they are still doing that nonsense in their mid-30s.  Otherwise, wait until they grow up a little, then we'll talk.  In the meantime, let the adults have our conversation.

But mainly, it is the debating technique of the "not off the rails but leaning that way" left to insist that anyone who disagrees with them about the nature of reality is racist, in lock-step, ignorant, and too many other motives ascribed to list here.  The rest of us are tired of the giant fucking blind spot--to put the most charitable explanation on the behavior.  If that makes me Manichean in that respect, I can live with it.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on August 26, 2020, 11:58:27 AM
Risk of Death Is 30% Lower for COVID-19 Patients Treated With Hydroxychloroquine  (https://scitechdaily.com/risk-of-death-is-30-lower-for-covid-19-patients-treated-with-hydroxychloroquine/)
And that's after they've been hospitalized!  
Recommendations of other studies are for better results in outpatient treatment.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on August 26, 2020, 12:00:38 PM
I almost forgot the required trolling comment.

Real Men Don't Wear Masks!
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 26, 2020, 06:04:04 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1146563
Risk of Death Is 30% Lower for COVID-19 Patients Treated With Hydroxychloroquine  (https://scitechdaily.com/risk-of-death-is-30-lower-for-covid-19-patients-treated-with-hydroxychloroquine/)
And that's after they've been hospitalized!  
Recommendations of other studies are for better results in outpatient treatment.

INB4 jhkim "That's not a legitimate study!"
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on August 26, 2020, 10:39:49 PM
Quote from: DocJones;1146563
Risk of Death Is 30% Lower for COVID-19 Patients Treated With Hydroxychloroquine  (https://scitechdaily.com/risk-of-death-is-30-lower-for-covid-19-patients-treated-with-hydroxychloroquine/)
And that's after they've been hospitalized!  
Recommendations of other studies are for better results in outpatient treatment.
Quote from: Brad;1146586
INB4 jhkim "That's not a legitimate study!"
No, as far as I can see, it's a legitimate study. Here's the actual article:

https://www.ejinme.com/article/S0953-6205(20)30335-6/fulltext

I'd put that in the positive column together with the other studies. Interestingly, it contradicts the claims at c19study, which pitched that hydroxychloroquine is only effective when taken early, not when administered upon admission to the hospital. There was another recent paper studying side effects, which found hydroxychloroquine seemed safe on its own -- but there was evidence of dangerous side effects when taken together with azithromycin.

http://outbreaknewstoday.com/hydroxychloroquine-and-covid-19-two-different-studies-78345/
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 27, 2020, 05:26:21 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;1146403
That's pretty much my take on this. The elderly couple may not only feel safer, they may actually be safer. I've no idea how much, but even if the benefits to that couple are incremental, me wearing a mask in indoor public spaces is a tiny, tiny sacrifice to make for them. Not to mention, that elderly couple are my neighbours.


If the elderly couple are scared of the sniffles, they can stay home.

Amazing how the road to tyranny is just submission to one "a tiny, tiny sacrifice" at a time.

How many thousands of business must be destroyed to keep your neighbors pacified?

How many millions of children must lose years of education so your neighbors "feel safer"?

How long do the rest of us have to put our lives on hold to please your neighbors?


Quote from: HappyDaze;1146536
Maybe because I'm working M-F you dumbass and I'll save making long posts for the weekend.


You gotta put the effort into those TikTok videos! There's so much competition between the nursing department / dance teams now so every hospital has gotta step up their choreography.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 27, 2020, 06:34:29 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146638
You gotta put the effort into those TikTok videos! There's so much competition between the nursing department / dance teams now so every hospital has gotta step up their choreography.
I wish; what I've got to do is revamp a phone triage system to adjust for some scope of practice changes (or "clarifications" depending on how you want to look at them) while trying to incorporate the input from a huge herd of cats (MDs, PAs, and ARNPs) and filter out the wasted noise.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 31, 2020, 12:59:59 AM
LOL. (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/08/30/heres-the-shockingly-small-number-of-people-who-died-from-just-the-coronavirus-n2575306)

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website disclosed the shockingly small number of people who died from only the Wuhan coronavirus, with no other cause of death mentioned. Hold on to your hat because here it is: out of the 161,392 deaths in the CDC data, just six percent, about 9,700 deaths, were attributed to the coronavirus alone. According to the CDC, the other 94 percent had an average of 2.6 additional conditions or causes of deaths, such as heart disease, diabetes, and sepsis.

We crippled our nation for 9,700 deaths.

LOL.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2020, 02:49:10 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1147032
LOL. (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/08/30/heres-the-shockingly-small-number-of-people-who-died-from-just-the-coronavirus-n2575306)

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website disclosed the shockingly small number of people who died from only the Wuhan coronavirus, with no other cause of death mentioned. Hold on to your hat because here it is: out of the 161,392 deaths in the CDC data, just six percent, about 9,700 deaths, were attributed to the coronavirus alone. According to the CDC, the other 94 percent had an average of 2.6 additional conditions or causes of deaths, such as heart disease, diabetes, and sepsis.

We crippled our nation for 9,700 deaths.

LOL.

You're reading that ass-backwards. 6% of those that died didn't have anything else going on, but consider that any single comorbidity--like hypertension which > 45% of Americans are estimated to have--takes them out of those numbers even though hypertension isn't likely to have killed them on its own. But, since we're using a site that Media Bias/Fact Check says "Overall, we rate Townhall Right Biased and Questionable based on consistent one-sided reporting that always favors the right and numerous failed fact checks," this is likely no surprise at all to anyone that it's totally skewed.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 31, 2020, 03:52:01 AM
Try again. It's the stats from the CDC itself.

Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. For data on comorbidities (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR2-muRM3tB3uBdbTrmKwH1NdaBx6PpZo2kxotNwkUXlnbZXCwSRP2OmqsI#Comorbidities)
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2020, 04:32:38 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1147042
Try again. It's the stats from the CDC itself.

Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. For data on comorbidities (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR2-muRM3tB3uBdbTrmKwH1NdaBx6PpZo2kxotNwkUXlnbZXCwSRP2OmqsI#Comorbidities)

Yes, and if you go directly to the CDC, you can see why the way Townhall presents it is duplicitous. They're trying to say that 94% of those that died with COVID didn't die because of COVID and that's not what it means. Take all of those that had HTN along with COVID; the HTN was not itself the immediate cause of death despite how Townhall wants to make it look, and it likely would not have been a cause of death without COVID for the vast majority of those with HTN.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on August 31, 2020, 09:06:56 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1147032
LOL. (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bronsonstocking/2020/08/30/heres-the-shockingly-small-number-of-people-who-died-from-just-the-coronavirus-n2575306)

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website disclosed the shockingly small number of people who died from only the Wuhan coronavirus, with no other cause of death mentioned. Hold on to your hat because here it is: out of the 161,392 deaths in the CDC data, just six percent, about 9,700 deaths, were attributed to the coronavirus alone. According to the CDC, the other 94 percent had an average of 2.6 additional conditions or causes of deaths, such as heart disease, diabetes, and sepsis.

We crippled our nation for 9,700 deaths.

LOL.

And you can already see the spin spin spin going on...scrubbing Twitter, shadowbans on Facebook, etc. You're not allowed to quote the fucking CDC, that bastion of unassailable scientific sovereignty, if their numbers don't match the media narrative.

INB4 "FOLLOW THE SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Literal LOL...anyone with a lick of sense knew this was bullshit from the start.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2020, 09:22:58 AM
I bet traffic fatalities are incredibly low once you eliminate everyone with a comorbidity. Nope, the high speed impact can't be held responsible if the people in the car have even one of: high blood pressure, diabetes, hyperlipidemia,  or obesity. Fuck, cooking statistics is easy.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on August 31, 2020, 05:25:15 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1147062
I bet traffic fatalities are incredibly low once you eliminate everyone with a comorbidity. Nope, the high speed impact can't be held responsible if the people in the car have even one of: high blood pressure, diabetes, hyperlipidemia,  or obesity. Fuck, cooking statistics is easy.

The most amusing thing to me is the fact that if you die in a high speed car accident and your corpse is tested positive for Wuhan flu then you get recorded as having died of Wuhan Flu.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2020, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: Shasarak;1147113
The most amusing thing to me is the fact that if you die in a high speed car accident and your corpse is tested positive for Wuhan flu then you get recorded as having died of Wuhan Flu.

The quality source for this "fact" would be?
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: dkabq on August 31, 2020, 06:26:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1147115
The quality source for this "fact" would be?


From searching on "crash victim reported as covid-19 death"
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721
https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report
https://www.tristatehomepage.com/illinois-news/illinois-looking-to-remove-inaccurate-numbers-from-covid-19-death-toll/

Likely not enough to materially change the overall numbers. But it does undermine them. And when you start piling on...

go to Chinatown to celebrate Chinese New Year's/lock-down
don't wear a mask/wear a mask
flatten the curve/if it saves even a single life
anti lockdown and 2A protests; you are literally killing grannies/(much larger) anti-racism protests; apparently makes you immune to Covid

Let's not forget sending Covid positive patients to nursing homes. And don't get me started on the quality of the Covid modeling, or that only deaths from Covid are accounted for and deaths from lockdown are ignored.

In a previous life, I worked on a project with very strict (NQA1) quality assurance requirements. As part of the project there was an analysis performed by one of its many partner organizations. During the discovery process (the project was litigated) emails were found where the analysts were taking shit about QA. That was deemed to have tainted the work. It had to be scrapped and redone by another organization, at a cost of $1M.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: dkabq on August 31, 2020, 06:56:51 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1147045
Yes, and if you go directly to the CDC, you can see why the way Townhall presents it is duplicitous. They're trying to say that 94% of those that died with COVID didn't die because of COVID and that's not what it means. Take all of those that had HTN along with COVID; the HTN was not itself the immediate cause of death despite how Townhall wants to make it look, and it likely would not have been a cause of death without COVID for the vast majority of those with HTN.


I have to partially agree with HD here. As he points out, just because you have one or more comorbidities doesn't mean that Covid isn't the proximate cause of your death. Conversely, some number of Covid-recorded deaths could have happened regardless of having Covid (likely correlated with age (16% of age 85+ die every year) and number/severity of comorbidities).The death statistics would have to be recorded in such a way to reflect this. Hell, I would be happy if there was uniform recording methodology, rather than the ad hoc county/state reporting.

The statistics that I find most interesting are that approximately 40% to 50% of Covid deaths are in nursing homes. Furthermore, if you look at deaths by age, 79% of Covid are age 65+, 58% are 75+, 31% are 85+ (i.e., like other illnesses (flu, pneumonia), the older you are, the more likely it is to kill you). Also, here in the Land of Enchantment, about another 40% are Native Americans on the reservations. The conclusions I draw are that the old and sick should have been locked down (like you would someone immunocompromised), which would have sufficiently flattened the curve to prevent deaths from inadequate care due to hospitals being overwhelmed. And they should have let the rest of us go about our business, thus avoiding lockdown-related deaths.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on September 01, 2020, 04:00:24 AM
Quote from: dkabq;1147118
I have to partially agree with HD here. As he points out, just because you have one or more comorbidities doesn't mean that Covid isn't the proximate cause of your death. Conversely, some number of Covid-recorded deaths could have happened regardless of having Covid (likely correlated with age (16% of age 85+ die every year) and number/severity of comorbidities).The death statistics would have to be recorded in such a way to reflect this. Hell, I would be happy if there was uniform recording methodology, rather than the ad hoc county/state reporting.
I agree that some number of covid-recorded deaths could have happened regardless of covid. It's likely to be a small difference though, because covid-19 is very fast-acting and has swift mortality compared to the other leading causes like cancer and heart disease. Drawing statistics from all covid-19 infections means that statistics are consistent rather than depending on local practices and rulings on how to classify deaths, especially when most deaths do not have an autopsy to check. This is why the CDC also looks at excess death statistics as part of their covid-19 study. Here's the link on the excess death measurement:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Whether the comorbidity death rate is a 0.05% correction or a 5% correction will depend on what the infection fatality rate really is, which can also be difficult to measure. But the excess death measure is an independent check on that. Plus, there are dozens of countries all of which have measured significant covid-19 deaths. There are valid differing arguments for what's the best way to deal with covid-19, but I don't think there's good argument that it's all a deliberate hoax by the CDC.


Quote from: dkabq;1147118
The statistics that I find most interesting are that approximately 40% to 50% of Covid deaths are in nursing homes. Furthermore, if you look at deaths by age, 79% of Covid are age 65+, 58% are 75+, 31% are 85+ (i.e., like other illnesses (flu, pneumonia), the older you are, the more likely it is to kill you). Also, here in the Land of Enchantment, about another 40% are Native Americans on the reservations. The conclusions I draw are that the old and sick should have been locked down (like you would someone immunocompromised), which would have sufficiently flattened the curve to prevent deaths from inadequate care due to hospitals being overwhelmed. And they should have let the rest of us go about our business, thus avoiding lockdown-related deaths.
I think that's a reasonable position. Mostly, I'm all for discussion of approach to handling it -- which is public policy and inherently involves a lot of trade-offs and choices. My concern is mostly for dismissal of the science that somehow the whole thing is a hoax that has simultaneously fooled opposing countries ranging from Iran to Brazil to Israel. My main question is the practicality of isolating the elderly when the virus is at high concentrations from spreading freely through the rest of the population. Many elderly live with younger family and/or depend on care from younger people, and are mostly *not* in nursing homes. It's a reasonable idea, and I'd want to see someone's plan about how it would work and the estimated effects.

In the U.S., since the states are handling the isolation and lockdowns each in their own way, it would seem like a good case to have a red state try this. If no red states are trying this, I'd want to know why.


Quote from: dkabq;1147117
From searching on "crash victim reported as covid-19 death"
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/questions-over-the-accuracy-of-how-the-state-tracks-covid-deaths/283-0b1b7b6c-695e-4313-92cf-a4cfd7510721
https://cbs12.com/news/local/man-who-died-in-motorcycle-crash-counted-as-covid-19-death-in-florida-report
https://www.tristatehomepage.com/illinois-news/illinois-looking-to-remove-inaccurate-numbers-from-covid-19-death-toll/

Likely not enough to materially change the overall numbers. But it does undermine them. And when you start piling on...
There have been errors and mistakes in covid-19 reporting on both sides, but my concern is that reading only about edge cases skews perspective as if they make a difference in the big picture. When you pile on a dozen 0.01% effects, you get an 0.12% effect -- which is still insignificant.
Title: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on September 01, 2020, 05:15:18 AM
Every year, people with co-morbidities die from the flu. We've known for a long time those with co-morbidities are the most likely to die every year. I'm sure the vast majority of those 80k Americans who died in 2018 from the flu also had 2-3 deadly factors working against them.  

Which is what's most important here regarding CoronaChan. It's just a "flu variant" - and so laughably obviously so - and if we weren't bullshitting the numbers left and right, we'd see 2020 was nothing more than a bad flu year.

And what do we shutdown, lockdown and panic about in a bad flu year? Absolutely nothing.

By hey, all this panicking for a pittance of deaths out of 350 MILLION surely won't have any negative long term affects on children, teens or the economy!

Remember little ones, be afraid. Be afraid of invisible things. Which could be everywhere. No one is safe. Everyone around you is diseased. You might be diseased. Now grow up with these memories seared into your skulls.

...and become the weakest, most obedient and most broken generation in human history.


Quote from: Brad;1147059
You're not allowed to quote the fucking CDC, that bastion of unassailable scientific sovereignty, if their numbers don't match the media narrative.

I wonder if social media behave the same if their sacred WHO masters agreed with the CDC numbers.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 01, 2020, 08:37:06 PM
Every radio station's hourly news segment starts with new COVID cases every time. The fear porn mongering by the media has been endless.
USA is now merely 5 away in deaths per million from Sweden which did almost none of this bullshit.


If you sit in a restaurant the COVID won't get you, but if you stand it will!
If you protest with BLM it won't get you but if you go to church it will!


Dennis Prager today said that 1 in 3 restaurants in California may close this year.
https://pjmedia.com/columns/dennis-prager/2020/09/01/the-lockdown-has-gone-from-a-mistake-to-a-crime-n871865


My wife and my coworkers believe the narrative completely. I have to say the mainstream media, which at this point I consider simply evil, have hit a home run this time. I despise them but I admire their excellence in sowing endless fear.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 02, 2020, 04:14:55 AM
Dennis Prager today said
Abiother worthless source of propaganda. Take a look at the fact checks and biases of both PJ Media and PragerU before you accept any "facts" from Dennis Prager.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on September 02, 2020, 05:40:03 AM
So, if COVID was only responsible for 9K deaths, WTF caused all the excess deaths compared to last year? Because that's 200K people dead from "something", if it's not COVID. That's about 10% over the expected mortality. Something's doing it and if it's not COVID, what? 
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 02, 2020, 05:57:36 AM
Dennis Prager today said
Abiother worthless source of propaganda. Take a look at the fact checks and biases of both PJ Media and PragerU before you accept any "facts" from Dennis Prager.
Don't really know much about Prager, and the 1 in 3 seems to be an off the cuff type of comment because it's not sourced or even expanded on, but it's not an unreasonable number.

Here's the NYT, which has a very strong bias in the other direction, saying that 1 in 3 small businesses in NYC will close due to the shutdowns:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/nyc-small-businesses-closing-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/nyc-small-businesses-closing-coronavirus.html)

And here's a Yelp survey, which has been widely quoted by numerous news outlets (including leftist ones like CNN), which suggests up to 60% of restaurants, across the country, that were shutdown are gone for good.
https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/yea-q2-2020 (https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/yea-q2-2020)
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 02, 2020, 07:48:26 AM
So, if COVID was only responsible for 9K deaths, WTF caused all the excess deaths compared to last year? Because that's 200K people dead from "something", if it's not COVID. That's about 10% over the expected mortality. Something's doing it and if it's not COVID, what?
Too early to say for sure.  Probably a mixture of several things, such as:
- COVID pushed some dying people over the edge sooner.  In which case, the rate should taper off next year after the season flu does its usual number.
- Speaking of which, just how bad was the flu this year?  There were hints a few times that it might be rough, but the numbers are getting mangled in the poor COVID testing process.  If a patient gets pushed over the edge by COVID the hospital or nursing home makes more money than if the same patient dies from the flu. The COVID tests are picking up other viruses.  Don't even try to tell me that this isn't being abused--the only question is how much.
- How many people did the lockdown kill?  We'll probably never know for sure, but it definitely killed some--e.g. people with dangerous but not killing heart attacks refusing to get care because of fear of COVID, then suffering a second attack.  Suicide rate is up. 

That's all on top of the fact that even a variation on the flu, like COVID, is still deadly to some people.  We get a nasty variation on the actual flu every 10 to 20 years that kills at about the same rate as COVID, and probably for the same reasons.
Not to be callous about it--but as an imperfect analogy, consider what a nasty winter or particularly hot and dry summer does to living things. It kills them--including some that made it through the last few such lesser winters or summers.  Things that could handle a few 20 degree days or a stretch of 90 degrees with a little rain can't handle a couple of weeks of around zero degrees or almost two months of 100 degrees and no rain. Heck, those conditions even kill a few people--usually elderly and sick ones. 
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 02, 2020, 08:19:35 AM
Here's the NYT, which has a very strong bias in the other direction, saying that 1 in 3 small businesses in NYC will close due to the shutdowns:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/nyc-small-businesses-closing-coronavirus.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/nyregion/nyc-small-businesses-closing-coronavirus.html)

And here's a Yelp survey, which has been widely quoted by numerous news outlets (including leftist ones like CNN), which suggests up to 60% of restaurants, across the country, that were shutdown are gone for good.
https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/yea-q2-2020 (https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/yea-q2-2020)
Restaurants are the canary in the coal mine of the economy. When they start crumpling, watch yourselves.


That being said, between the rioting and Covid-19, a number of cities are going to be facing some, uh, interesting times.


Case in point: https://www.startribune.com/skyrocketing-demolition-costs-for-riot-damaged-properties-delay-rebuilding/572269302/


Do you think those businesses will return? Even the ones that have insurance that covers everything, they'll be pressured to move. Who wants to build (or insure) in a place where screaming hooligans might burn the building down on a whim?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on September 02, 2020, 09:17:19 AM

Restaurants are the canary in the coal mine of the economy. When they start crumpling, watch yourselves.


That being said, between the rioting and Covid-19, a number of cities are going to be facing some, uh, interesting times.


Case in point: https://www.startribune.com/skyrocketing-demolition-costs-for-riot-damaged-properties-delay-rebuilding/572269302/ (https://www.startribune.com/skyrocketing-demolition-costs-for-riot-damaged-properties-delay-rebuilding/572269302/)


Do you think those businesses will return? Even the ones that have insurance that covers everything, they'll be pressured to move. Who wants to build (or insure) in a place where screaming hooligans might burn the building down on a whim?


The US has moved to a more service-based economy over the years, that is why the restaurants are the canary.


Even if the insurance pays fully, the lost revenue and the increase in premiums will drive a large number of businesses under.


But hey, for the globalists that's a feature not a bug...I mean we obviously can't have people going into business for themselves and getting out from under the wage slave thumb...
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: robiswrong on September 02, 2020, 09:39:14 AM
Which is what's most important here regarding CoronaChan. It's just a "flu variant" - and so laughably obviously so - and if we weren't bullshitting the numbers left and right, we'd see 2020 was nothing more than a bad flu year.


Look at "excess deaths".  It's the most interesting, and hardest to bullshit, stat.


If anything it would underestimate covid deaths due to people being under various levels of lockdown and so fewer people dying from other causes, other diseases being spread less, etc.


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-excess-deaths-tally-in-the-us-is-204691-in-7-months-so-covid-19-deaths-might-be-undercounted-2020-08-13
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 02, 2020, 07:08:46 PM
Look at "excess deaths".  It's the most interesting, and hardest to bullshit, stat.If anything it would underestimate covid deaths due to people being under various levels of lockdown and so fewer people dying from other causes, other diseases being spread less, etc.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-excess-deaths-tally-in-the-us-is-204691-in-7-months-so-covid-19-deaths-might-be-undercounted-2020-08-13 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-excess-deaths-tally-in-the-us-is-204691-in-7-months-so-covid-19-deaths-might-be-undercounted-2020-08-13)

Marketwatch is extremely biased on the globalist, anti-Trump side. We need to have complete years to compare. I guess there could have been a spike when people like Cuomo shoved COVID patients in nursing homes. We will see when this is all over.

Even if the COVID death count is genuine, that means retirees need to take more precautions, not everyone else.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 02, 2020, 07:39:24 PM
I found this data to be interesting:


https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Weekly-Counts-of-Deaths-by-State-and-Select-Causes/muzy-jte6


It shows Illinois has a 16% increase in deaths as of last week and Indiana has an 8% increase. Indiana has been negative vs. last year for the last 3 weeks, which may point to a COVID bubble.
I am very curious to see how it looks when the entire calendar year is done.

Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on September 02, 2020, 07:47:16 PM
Too early to say for sure.  Probably a mixture of several things, such as:
- COVID pushed some dying people over the edge sooner.  In which case, the rate should taper off next year after the season flu does its usual number.
One commentator that I follow made the comment that it almost seems as if someone infected with the Wuhan virus is spending their regenerative power to fight it off and therefore if you are older and or have less left then you will die.
If this is the case then it will be interesting to see if people who have recovered die earlier then you would normally expect.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 02, 2020, 08:10:45 PM
It's probably a month out of date, but at one point the average age of coronavirus related deaths in Pennsylvania was 84.

The average Pennsylvanian lives to 78.

The highest estimate I've seen for the number of years of life lost for an an average coronavirus death is 12, and that's based on average years of additional life expected based on age, sex, and long term conditions. Since it uses an average and not the lifespan on the margin[1], it serves as an upper bound, and the real number is likely much lower.
https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-75/v1

[1] Given a group of people with the same age, sex, and long term conditions, we can assume those who die of the coronavirus were probably among those who would have passed away sooner.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on September 03, 2020, 05:51:07 AM
Given a group of people with the same age, sex, and long term conditions, we can assume those who die of the coronavirus were probably among those who would have passed away sooner.


Indeed, and that's one of the nasty things about this virus - it has the greatest effect on people who were vulnerable anyway. It's one thing to know that your Grandma/ Grandpa is frail and might die/get very ill at any time. It's quite another to know that you might infect them with COVID and cause that death/decline. Yes, you might have done that last year with the flu, but flu shots are a thing and COVID appears even nastier.


Secondly, there seem to be a number of otherwise fit people who are badly affected by COVID and who develop serious ongoing heart/organ issues. These people are likely to have it much worse if/when they catch COVID again. So there seems to be a significant number of people who will start healthy, catch COVID, become vulnerable and then die when they catch the next wave of COVID. I don't have the stats (I suspect it's not been with us long enough to get them) on how big this particular issue really is.
 
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on September 03, 2020, 08:01:18 AM

Secondly, there seem to be a number of otherwise fit people who are badly affected by COVID and who develop serious ongoing heart/organ issues. These people are likely to have it much worse if/when they catch COVID again. So there seems to be a significant number of people who will start healthy, catch COVID, become vulnerable and then die when they catch the next wave of COVID. I don't have the stats (I suspect it's not been with us long enough to get them) on how big this particular issue really is.
You are right that we don't have the information yet.  Given the state of the hysteria of the media, even when some people do have it, it is going to be somewhat difficult for the rest of us to get it, at least in a form we can reasonably trust. 

We do know that the same thing happens with other diseases.  When an otherwise healthy person dies from the flu, it's usually because it caught them at a bad time (stress, low vitamin levels, not enough sleep, dehydrated), probably trying to power through it, gets pneumonia.  Out of all the people that get pneumonia, some are going to have serious complications and some are going to die.  The silver lining in that is that the same thing a person ought to do to cope with it is get the sleep, eat well, hydrate, etc.  And when that isn't sufficient, get care.  Which all has other positive benefits besides merely avoiding diseases. 

Note that the lockdown makes the coping and the getting care more difficult for a significant portion of the population.  Unlike, say, random car accidents that you can only do so much to protect against and maim and kill indiscriminately.  Those are down with the lockdown.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 03, 2020, 10:05:12 AM
And even if Covid has severe after-affects, what do we do about it?


We can't stay locked down until a hypothetical vaccine emerges, and even willing and dilligent people are going to get slack after months and years of mask wearing and social distancing.





Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on September 04, 2020, 03:50:00 AM
Secondly, there seem to be a number of otherwise fit people who are badly affected by COVID and who develop serious ongoing heart/organ issues. These people are likely to have it much worse if/when they catch COVID again. So there seems to be a significant number of people who will start healthy, catch COVID, become vulnerable and then die when they catch the next wave of COVID. I don't have the stats (I suspect it's not been with us long enough to get them) on how big this particular issue really is.
An absolutely tiny number of outliers. The vast majority of those hospitalised are over-65, suffering from multiple co-morbidities, and are overweight or obese. When looking at deaths, it's over 90% who have one or more of those factors.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 04, 2020, 06:21:49 AM
Secondly, there seem to be a number of otherwise fit people who are badly affected by COVID and who develop serious ongoing heart/organ issues. These people are likely to have it much worse if/when they catch COVID again. So there seems to be a significant number of people who will start healthy, catch COVID, become vulnerable and then die when they catch the next wave of COVID. I don't have the stats (I suspect it's not been with us long enough to get them) on how big this particular issue really is.
An absolutely tiny number of outliers. The vast majority of those hospitalised are over-65, suffering from multiple co-morbidities, and are overweight or obese. When looking at deaths, it's over 90% who have one or more of those factors.
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on September 04, 2020, 06:24:02 AM
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
I live in the UK, I couldn't really give a toss about Americans. Similarly, strangers who don't look after themselves aren't really my concern either.
Utterly excessive and unnecessary laws restricting the freedom of perfectly healthy people at little risk concern me, on the other hand
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 04, 2020, 06:37:37 AM
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
I live in the UK, I couldn't really give a toss about Americans. Similarly, strangers who don't look after themselves aren't really my concern either.
Utterly excessive and unnecessary laws restricting the freedom of perfectly healthy people at little risk concern me, on the other hand
Not concerned about others? Well, fuck you then buddy. If you don't care about the lives of others, why the fuck should anyone give a fuck about your freedom, you 'perfectly healthy' asshole?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 04, 2020, 02:36:57 PM
Restaurants are the canary in the coal mine of the economy. When they start crumpling, watch yourselves.
Restaurants come and go all the time, it's that 60% number that has me worried. I don't think we have a good feel for how badly this will decimate the small businesses.

Isn't all this grand government intervention supposed to help the little people? Because the giants like Amazon and Walmart and booming, while the small businesses are being hammered. The rich are doing fine, while the poor are struggling even more.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 04, 2020, 02:53:57 PM
Secondly, there seem to be a number of otherwise fit people who are badly affected by COVID and who develop serious ongoing heart/organ issues. These people are likely to have it much worse if/when they catch COVID again. So there seems to be a significant number of people who will start healthy, catch COVID, become vulnerable and then die when they catch the next wave of COVID. I don't have the stats (I suspect it's not been with us long enough to get them) on how big this particular issue really is.
An absolutely tiny number of outliers. The vast majority of those hospitalised are over-65, suffering from multiple co-morbidities, and are overweight or obese. When looking at deaths, it's over 90% who have one or more of those factors.
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
That's the wrong question.

The number of people who will die or get serious long-term complications from sars2 is small, and almost entirely concentrated among the elderly. Those who have serious co-morbidities are at higher risk, but that doesn't invalidate the age distribution. Being fat and 30 means you have a higher risk compared to other 30 year olds, but only a tiny number of 30 year olds will be seriously affected, so the risk is still very low. It does not mean that that 30 year olds will start dying at the same rate as the elderly, just because there are a lot of fat people. It does mean the tiny fraction might increase a little in fat populations, and that among the tiny fraction of 30 year olds who end up with serious complications, fat people will be highly overrepresented.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on September 04, 2020, 03:17:06 PM
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
I live in the UK, I couldn't really give a toss about Americans. Similarly, strangers who don't look after themselves aren't really my concern either.
Utterly excessive and unnecessary laws restricting the freedom of perfectly healthy people at little risk concern me, on the other hand
Not concerned about others? Well, fuck you then buddy. If you don't care about the lives of others, why the fuck should anyone give a fuck about your freedom, you 'perfectly healthy' asshole?


As an American with at least two of those 'factors' (over 45 and diabetic) I have this to say.
Kiero is absolutely right...It isn't HIS job to take care of me, it is MY job to take care of me.
I refuse to wear a fucking mask because they don't do any good and someone with more factors than I have supports this....Thanks Aunt Nancy!  ;D


My biggest issue is the fact that I have put on about 8-10 pounds since I can't go to the gym...but hey according to Governor Mikey, its to protect the people... ::)


...and I don't know how other people with health issues feel but I personally wish HD would stop virtue signalling for me.  I am an adult and I can take care of my own health conditions...or I can decide not to take care of them and die from diabetic complications.


...but that would be on me, wouldn't it?

Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: VisionStorm on September 04, 2020, 05:33:08 PM
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
I live in the UK, I couldn't really give a toss about Americans. Similarly, strangers who don't look after themselves aren't really my concern either.
Utterly excessive and unnecessary laws restricting the freedom of perfectly healthy people at little risk concern me, on the other hand
Not concerned about others? Well, fuck you then buddy. If you don't care about the lives of others, why the fuck should anyone give a fuck about your freedom, you 'perfectly healthy' asshole?

I agree! Those who would give up a little temporary safety for essential liberty deserve neither...or something.  ::)

Meanwhile, back in the real world, people have already been deputized into giving up their liberty to purchase the illusion of safety for a relatively minor subset of people. Yet somehow the question is why should those people already (presumably) enjoying their safety at the expense of other people’s liberty have to care about those people’s freedom? Muthafucka those people already effectively got their way (or at least the people purportedly speaking on their behalf did). This is about the people being sacrificed so that a relatively minor subset of the population can supposedly be saved.

Now I’m gonna get my fat asthmatic ass out for a walk—without wearing a mask! I’m not gonna keep my higher risk ass cooked up at home, racking up pounds and not expanding my lungs so I can become an even higher risk.

*literally walking out the door*
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 04, 2020, 06:25:04 PM
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
I live in the UK, I couldn't really give a toss about Americans. Similarly, strangers who don't look after themselves aren't really my concern either.
Utterly excessive and unnecessary laws restricting the freedom of perfectly healthy people at little risk concern me, on the other hand
Not concerned about others? Well, fuck you then buddy. If you don't care about the lives of others, why the fuck should anyone give a fuck about your freedom, you 'perfectly healthy' asshole?

I agree! Those who would give up a little temporary safety for essential liberty deserve neither...or something.  ::)

Meanwhile, back in the real world, people have already been deputized into giving up their liberty to purchase the illusion of safety for a relatively minor subset of people. Yet somehow the question is why should those people already (presumably) enjoying their safety at the expense of other people’s liberty have to care about those people’s freedom? Muthafucka those people already effectively got their way (or at least the people purportedly speaking on their behalf did). This is about the people being sacrificed so that a relatively minor subset of the population can supposedly be saved.

Now I’m gonna get my fat asthmatic ass out for a walk—without wearing a mask! I’m not gonna keep my higher risk ass cooked up at home, racking up pounds and not expanding my lungs so I can become an even higher risk.

*literally walking out the door*
You have a truly idiotic idea of what constitutes an essential liberty.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 04, 2020, 06:28:34 PM
I personally wish HD would stop virtue signalling for me.
This is theRPGsite, you dumbfuck. It's the mirror universe. Here, virtue signaling is ranting against public health and threatening to do violence to large groups of people that share some beliefs in common with the other. Well, you're not going to get your wish, bitch.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 04, 2020, 08:17:56 PM
The US with lockdown has passed up Sweden with no lockdown in deaths per million.


Seems lockdowns weren't that necessary.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 04, 2020, 08:31:21 PM
The US with lockdown has passed up Sweden with no lockdown in deaths per million.


Seems lockdowns weren't that necessary.


In hindsight.
I didn't mind "15 days to slow the spread", but what we have now is clearly politically motivated foot-dragging.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on September 04, 2020, 08:37:58 PM
Not concerned about others? Well, fuck you then buddy. If you don't care about the lives of others, why the fuck should anyone give a fuck about your freedom, you 'perfectly healthy' asshole?
What happened to taking responsibility for your own life?
No, thats right the new narrative is that everyone else has to wear a mask to protect you.  Well except when you have an urgent need to go out with your 10,000 closest friends of course.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 04, 2020, 09:40:55 PM
What happened to taking responsibility for your own life?
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: sureshot on September 04, 2020, 11:38:30 PM
I personally stopped pushing my view on how people should act in COVID-19. If a person does not want to wear a mask then don't. at the same time don't get too close to me and make sure to wash your hands and follow basic hygiene. If I am standing in line and your breathing down my neck with no mask your backing up one way or the other. Either with a kind word or a swift hard kick or knee to the happy sacks. I am all for freedom of doing what you want during Covid-19 have consideration and respect for others. I don't have grandparents at home my fiance does and I am not putting them at risk for no one who can't follow at least basic quarantine procedures.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: EOTB on September 04, 2020, 11:44:20 PM

What happened to taking responsibility for your own life?
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.


The same people who scowl at the person grabbing a cig outside the bar will say this with a straight face while powering down a meal of 10 deep-fried chicken tendies slathered in ranch, a bowl of tapioca pudding, and a Diet Coke, after loosening their too-tight size 46 pants.


And after a while, they’ll be looked at socially as smokers are now, if lots of people have to take on unwanted economic harm to protect the Colonel’s shit-tier immune system.  60% of the US used to smoke. 


People were willing to do the unusual while data was collected on an unknown.  Asking for more isn’t going to fly on guilt-wings for long.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: worrapol on September 05, 2020, 04:20:16 AM
Isn't all this grand government intervention supposed to help the little people? Because the giants like Amazon and Walmart and booming, while the small businesses are being hammered. The rich are doing fine, while the poor are struggling even more.


Just saw some Democrats on tv arguing that small business being good for communities or the economy in general was a right-wing myth, and that looting and burning down all small businesses would be the best possible thing for real communities.
 ??? :o ::)
I think your error is in assuming small business owners are little people. Poor people don't need small businesses, government is supposed to give them everything. Amazon and Walmart aren't "rich" they donate Democrat, they're part of the "good" elites who only think of helping the poor... or so I hear...
 8)
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: VisionStorm on September 05, 2020, 11:50:06 AM
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
I live in the UK, I couldn't really give a toss about Americans. Similarly, strangers who don't look after themselves aren't really my concern either.
Utterly excessive and unnecessary laws restricting the freedom of perfectly healthy people at little risk concern me, on the other hand
Not concerned about others? Well, fuck you then buddy. If you don't care about the lives of others, why the fuck should anyone give a fuck about your freedom, you 'perfectly healthy' asshole?

I agree! Those who would give up a little temporary safety for essential liberty deserve neither...or something.  ::)

Meanwhile, back in the real world, people have already been deputized into giving up their liberty to purchase the illusion of safety for a relatively minor subset of people. Yet somehow the question is why should those people already (presumably) enjoying their safety at the expense of other people’s liberty have to care about those people’s freedom? Muthafucka those people already effectively got their way (or at least the people purportedly speaking on their behalf did). This is about the people being sacrificed so that a relatively minor subset of the population can supposedly be saved.

Now I’m gonna get my fat asthmatic ass out for a walk—without wearing a mask! I’m not gonna keep my higher risk ass cooked up at home, racking up pounds and not expanding my lungs so I can become an even higher risk.

*literally walking out the door*
You have a truly idiotic idea of what constitutes an essential liberty.

Muthafucka the economy's in shambles and people's livelihoods have been destroyed. All so that we can pretend that locking down the entire planet will somehow save a tiny portion of the population that isn't even guaranteed to die from this shambug. You have no notion of WTF essential liberty is.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 05, 2020, 11:55:47 AM
And what percentage of Americans have one or more of those factors? It's not an absolutely tiny amount.
I live in the UK, I couldn't really give a toss about Americans. Similarly, strangers who don't look after themselves aren't really my concern either.
Utterly excessive and unnecessary laws restricting the freedom of perfectly healthy people at little risk concern me, on the other hand
Not concerned about others? Well, fuck you then buddy. If you don't care about the lives of others, why the fuck should anyone give a fuck about your freedom, you 'perfectly healthy' asshole?

I agree! Those who would give up a little temporary safety for essential liberty deserve neither...or something.  ::)

Meanwhile, back in the real world, people have already been deputized into giving up their liberty to purchase the illusion of safety for a relatively minor subset of people. Yet somehow the question is why should those people already (presumably) enjoying their safety at the expense of other people’s liberty have to care about those people’s freedom? Muthafucka those people already effectively got their way (or at least the people purportedly speaking on their behalf did). This is about the people being sacrificed so that a relatively minor subset of the population can supposedly be saved.

Now I’m gonna get my fat asthmatic ass out for a walk—without wearing a mask! I’m not gonna keep my higher risk ass cooked up at home, racking up pounds and not expanding my lungs so I can become an even higher risk.

*literally walking out the door*
You have a truly idiotic idea of what constitutes an essential liberty.

Muthafucka the economy's in shambles and people's livelihoods have been destroyed. All so that we can pretend that locking down the entire planet will somehow save a tiny portion of the population that isn't even guaranteed to die from this shambug. You have no notion of WTF essential liberty is.
Bitch please, you seem to care about economy as an essential liberty, but it's based on mutual relationships and you've said you don't care about what happens to others. So basically, you only care about others in a parasitic way when you no longer can suck from them. Well, keeping sucking, you pathetic piece of shit.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on September 08, 2020, 05:00:24 AM
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on September 08, 2020, 05:26:04 AM
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.


Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on September 08, 2020, 05:38:07 AM
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
Try: fuck off.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on September 08, 2020, 07:13:34 AM
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 08, 2020, 08:51:09 AM
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.
You shouldn't have any problems referencing appropriate court cases and precedents, then.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Garry G on September 08, 2020, 01:20:50 PM
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.


Weirdly enough I've just been reading about this in the Secret Barristers new book, which I highly recommend, and it's actually the basis upon which lawyers argue for reparations in court in England and Wales . The raising of the amount which is claimed for in small claims has unfortunately meant that many more people have had to represent themselves as a small claim does not include legal costs being paid if they win. It's a fascinating chapter.


I suppose it has some bearing on Keiros nonsensical claims as he is liable for some of the effects he has on others besides taxation. I would argue that he has a larger responsibility to others and as a member of society he has gained from our shared responsibility to each other but I wouldn't bother. He's a weird wee man who seems unable to see beyond his own nose so what's the point.


Check out the book though, it's very good.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Chris24601 on September 08, 2020, 05:01:03 PM
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
And if I lived in England, you might have a point. Fortunately God blessed me by making me an American where socialist bullshit can die in a fire.


Of course I also suspect that there’s part of that law beithat being selectively left off of that description... that you only owe others a duty of care IF you caused the problem.


Otherwise literally everyone on the planet is guilty of failure to provide care every time I stub my toe and they took no steps to prevent it or sooth my injury afterwards.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on September 08, 2020, 05:21:28 PM
The details differ between the 50 states, but generally that English tort law above is just as valid in the US and has been since... well... since it was just English law and not US law. The duty of care you owe another is a very old concept in the Common Law tort system.
Generally, yes, you must somehow be the cause and the cause must be foreseeable to a reasonable person. (And good luck defining any of those terms. Short version: don't ever try to "everyone is responsible for themselves only" in court without really knowing what you're doing. Get a lawyer or, with the reasoning you've shown in this thread, you're going to be out a shitload of money.)
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 08, 2020, 11:05:34 PM
Funny for all this talk of the law, I don't see State Congresses in the US passing laws. Governors are creating mandates with their pens.
The governor of Wisconsin lost in their State Supreme Court but other courts such as in Illinois have been feckless.


Laws are only for some people. See marijuana in the US, sanctuary states, and now COVID mandates.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on September 08, 2020, 11:07:59 PM
Try: fuck off.

You shouldn't have any problems referencing appropriate court cases and precedents, then.

You want evidence for the assertion that telling the court to fuck off leads to a bad result for you?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 08, 2020, 11:10:55 PM
You want evidence for the assertion that telling the court to fuck off leads to a bad result for you?
What is the point you are trying to make here? We will or should get sued if we don't abide by the mask totem cult and someone dies of COVID?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 09, 2020, 03:06:23 AM
On September 2, the CDC imposed a nationwide moratorium on evictions in the US, for everyone making $99,000 or less (twice that for dual filers). All you have to do to qualify is fill out a form from the CDC, and give it to your landlord.

This is notable for a number of reasons. To start, it's completely unprecedented. Before COVID-19, federal government had never suspended rent. Not during the Great Recession, or the Great Depression. Not during past epidemics, like the 1918 flu or the tuberulous outbreaks in the 19th century. Not during any war, including WW2. This is a momentous change and expansion of the fundamental limits of government, yet there was no public debate. A note just appeared in the Federal Register.

It's also the CDC acting under their own authority. There was an earlier halt on evictions, but it was part of the CARES Act. So while it was legally dubious, at least it was passed by Congress, and politicians can theoretically be held responsible. The scope is also remarkable: Unlike the moratorium in the CARES Act, which was limited to federally-backed rentals and mortgages, this new order applies to all rentals, nationwide.

The statute the CDC cites as their authority says:
Quote from: 42 CFR § 70.2.
Whenever the Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention determines that the measures taken by health authorities of any State or possession (including political subdivisions thereof) are insufficient to prevent the spread of any of the communicable diseases from such State or possession to any other State or possession, he/she may take such measures to prevent such spread of the diseases as he/she deems reasonably necessary, including inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, and destruction of animals or articles believed to be sources of infection.
That's broadly written, but look at the examples: They're all intended to deal with an outbreak at a specific address. There's not a single hint that it's intended to allow the CDC to preemptively impose such grand costs on individuals and businesses across the country, so the order seems far beyond any possible interpretation of the delegated authority. More than that, the authority is vested in the Director of the CDC, yet the person who signed this order is Nina B. Witkofsky, Acting Chief of Staff. It's unclear who higher in the chain of command was even aware of it.

More than that, it's a horrible idea. Setting the precedent that the federal government can wave their hand and impose huge costs on landlords adds a massive amount of risk, because there's no reason to assume the government will stay their hand next time there's a financial crisis. Landlords will flee this corner of the market, selling their properties at fire sale prices to speculators, resulting in the mostly small businesses who run the low end of the rental market consolidating into a smaller number of much larger businesses. Prices will rise for tenants, and landlords will become more distant and less responsive.

Not to mention the damage done to the economy as a whole when the government decides it can void or amend contracts, at a whim.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-eviction-declaration.html
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/09/04/2020-19654/temporary-halt-in-residential-evictions-to-prevent-the-further-spread-of-covid-19
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/70.2
https://reason.com/2020/09/01/the-statutory-authority-for-the-nationwide-eviction-moratorium/
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Chris24601 on September 09, 2020, 06:06:32 AM
Funny for all this talk of the law, I don't see State Congresses in the US passing laws. Governors are creating mandates with their pens.
Our feckless governor tried to make his fiat mask mandate a crime subject to fines and imprisonment until our still sane state attorney general said it would be against the law to make make that rule without approval of both houses of the state legislature.


So he backed of and rewrote it so that there’s no penalty to not wearing a mask, you’re just supposed to feel really bad about not wearing your medically useless but government approved symbol of submission.


That’s basically where a lot of this country is at; governors ignoring their state constitutions to make illegal edicts that are wrecking people’s lives.


My favorite bit of insanity... in that it proves just how utterly stupid the decision-making is... happened when I was picking up lunch for my dad at Taco Bell. The management decided they wanted to reduce contact even further so they have you put your payment in a cup instead of just handing it to the gloved worker. Then the worker has to pull the payment out and either swipe the card or make change WITH THEIR HANDS, put it back in the cup and give it back to you.


Extra steps added? Two, Contacts actually reduced? Zero.


And to top it off the attendant who was sharing the exasperation over the stupidity of it told me they’ve been reusing the cup all day because the manager didn’t want the expense of a fresh cup for every transaction. So you’re shoving your hand down into a cup to reach your card that’s had every person in line ahead of you doing the exact same thing.


THIS is the epic level of Stupid the fear-mongers have produced; wear useless masks (that depending on the design may actually aerosolize the water droplets of your breath so any contamination actually travels further) while making everyone has to stick their hand into the same cup.


Communist governments routinely had their subjects perform meaningless gestures the subject knew was meaningless or a lie [size=78%]because their participation in the lie degraded people’s resistance to the State.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]The government leaders have had a taste of what totalitarianism feels like and don’t want to give that up. That’s what this endless masking and arbitrary shutdowns are about; it’s a power trip by authoritarian busybodies.[/size]
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on September 09, 2020, 06:36:10 AM
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
Try: fuck off.
Apology accepted
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: spon on September 09, 2020, 06:38:06 AM
Taking responsibility for your own life and taking on the responsibility of being a member of society are not mutually exclusive unless you're going for some IRL emulation of a chaotic stupid alignment.
My responsibility for other adults ends at the point at which I pay taxation at the Higher Rate. I'm not obliged to give the first shit about another adult, who is responsible for themselves.
Try again:

"In English tort law, an individual may owe a duty of care to another, to ensure that they do not suffer any unreasonable harm or loss. If such a duty is found to be breached, a legal liability is imposed upon the tortfeasor to compensate the victim for any losses they incur."
And if I lived in England, you might have a point. Fortunately God blessed me by making me an American where socialist bullshit can die in a fire.


Kiero has stated he lives in the UK, so perhaps I do have a point?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 09, 2020, 06:52:36 AM
That’s basically where a lot of this country is at; governors ignoring their state constitutions to make illegal edicts that are wrecking people’s lives.
No, in a lot of states it's perfectly legal. Most state constitutions place few limits on the powers of the legislative branch, and many of those have granted the governor sweeping emergency powers. This is less about states willfully violating their own laws, and more about how few limits are in place.

My favorite bit of insanity... in that it proves just how utterly stupid the decision-making is... happened when I was picking up lunch for my dad at Taco Bell. The management decided they wanted to reduce contact even further so they have you put your payment in a cup instead of just handing it to the gloved worker. Then the worker has to pull the payment out and either swipe the card or make change WITH THEIR HANDS, put it back in the cup and give it back to you.
They started doing that at McDonald's, around here. I agree, it's completely idiotic. A germ-infested intermediary is worse than no intermediary at all.

Another example is the local Walmart, which recently closed all but one of their entrances, and put security between the entrance and exit doors, so they're within arm's reach of people going in and out. So instead of allowing people to space out and keep their distance, they're forcing everyone into a channel where they are required to pass close by each other. This isn't because the Walmart has little traffic or is understaffed; it's one of the busiest I've ever seen, with blue vests everywhere. And that doesn't even get into the staff counting people coming or going, or the flow once you're inside the store, which are equally terrible.

The lines and counters were stupid back when all non-essential businesses were closed, but reimplementing an even stupider solution now just seems absurd.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 09, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
Try: fuck off.

You shouldn't have any problems referencing appropriate court cases and precedents, then.

You want evidence for the assertion that telling the court to fuck off leads to a bad result for you?

I believe you know exactly what I'm talking about and are pretending to be mentally disabled.


English tort law may be accepted as 'in the interests of the law' but it is not binding law. In fact, misuse of English defamation rules actually led to a law being passed in the U.S. which flat out states 'if you want to enforce a defamation verdict here, it must meet OUR requirements'.


In other words, English tort law is nice but it has no legal standing beyond background and (normally) good and fair application. Blackstone's Commentaries, for example, is not binding law, but it's excellent advice.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 09, 2020, 11:48:20 AM
No, in a lot of states it's perfectly legal. Most state constitutions place few limits on the powers of the legislative branch, and many of those have granted the governor sweeping emergency powers. This is less about states willfully violating their own laws, and more about how few limits are in place.
Not legal in Illinois except for 30 days. Gee, I think they might have exceeded 30 days by now. But the powers that be don't care about legality in Illinois. (same with marijuana, illegal immigrants, etc).


https://www.illinoispolicy.org/state-legal-memo-illinois-governor-needs-lawmakers-approval-before-extending-emergency-powers/
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on September 09, 2020, 09:47:37 PM
Gee,  if only there weren't other provisions of the Illinois Code (like Section 5-45 of the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act (https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=000501000HArt%2E+5&ActID=83&ChapterID=2&SeqStart=2100000&SeqEnd=6400000)) and Illinois Administrative Code (https://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/index/register/volume44/register_volume44_issue_34.pdf) the Governor could rely on. And if ONLY those rules didn't specify a 150 day limit instead of a 30 day limit. AND IF ONLY THOSE RULES didn't further exempt emergency rules made for Title 77.

Damn, it's a shame that Governors in  most states don't have multiple laws with which they could exercise emergency authority and that they only have 1 way to do it. It's really a shame. A shame that there's no common law understandings of emergency powers either that supplement such provisions where the law does not specifically override them.


Maybe if you were this passionate about things outside of an internet message board, you could make a difference and get people elected who will treat the law the way you think it works. (If you think governors don't have broad, sweeping powers during times of emergency, you're wrong. If you think legislatures have sufficiently locked these down, you're wrong. If you think legislatures probably should claw some of that power back away from the executive, well then you and I agree.)
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 09, 2020, 11:13:35 PM
Gee,  if only there weren't other provisions of the Illinois Code (like Section 5-45 of the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act (https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=000501000HArt%2E+5&ActID=83&ChapterID=2&SeqStart=2100000&SeqEnd=6400000)) and Illinois Administrative Code (https://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/index/register/volume44/register_volume44_issue_34.pdf) the Governor could rely on. And if ONLY those rules didn't specify a 150 day limit instead of a 30 day limit. AND IF ONLY THOSE RULES didn't further exempt emergency rules made for Title 77.

Damn, it's a shame that Governors in  most states don't have multiple laws with which they could exercise emergency authority and that they only have 1 way to do it. It's really a shame. A shame that there's no common law understandings of emergency powers either that supplement such provisions where the law does not specifically override them.

Maybe if you were this passionate about things outside of an internet message board, you could make a difference and get people elected who will treat the law the way you think it works. (If you think governors don't have broad, sweeping powers during times of emergency, you're wrong. If you think legislatures have sufficiently locked these down, you're wrong. If you think legislatures probably should claw some of that power back away from the executive, well then you and I agree.)
It's been over 150 days so your point on that is completely irrelevant. I doubt you are a lawyer any more than I am. In a Democrat supermajority state, the Democrats don't even have to go to court. They do what they like in many cases. And this "emergency" is a scam and opens the doors for many other so-called "emergencies." Maybe we can have one every flu season or maybe only in Presidential election years.

I left Illinois in 2018 when it was clear that we would have a terrible Governor no matter what. However, I still work in Illinois and pay taxes in Illinois. Taxation without representation and all that. Illinois is going down the drain no matter what happens. They will never touch their precious pensions which are the main cause of the fiscal insolvency.  Either they will pass the amendment to the state constitution to start raising the taxes and drive all the millionaires (and eventually the middle class) out or they can explore bankruptcy in the future. If they pass the amendment, it will just accelerate the emigration from Illinois which is already happening.

And as for me wasting my time posting on an Internet forum, you can't tell me how to use my own time. Put me on ignore or screw off.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on September 09, 2020, 11:50:32 PM
You didn't look at the date that rule was published did you? Nor did you notice the exception I already pointed out.
EDIT: Also, you may want to check your reading comprehension. I didn't tell you what to do with your time.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 10, 2020, 12:14:14 AM
You didn't look at the date that rule was published did you? Nor did you notice the exception I already pointed out.
EDIT: Also, you may want to check your reading comprehension. I didn't tell you what to do with your time.
Oh I read it. It was snarky and arrogant, like I'm supposed to start the political movement that topples the Illinois Democratic machine instead of bitching on an Internet forum...


I voted in every election since I was 18. When I realized after living in IL for 43 years that my vote was meaningless, I left. I still have a lot of friends and family there and are sorry to see them shredding their economy even further. Pritzker has even used the mandates as political punishment to counties which are more red and allowed the other counties to not have the same mandate under the same conditions because they are more blue.


Again, I can't say I understand the "exception you pointed out" which is just a sentence. Your link leads to pages of legalese. The media doesn't explain to the layperson why his mandates are legal or not, they assume they are legal because they are all Democrat in Illinois. But if you're trying to tell me the people that ignore federal immigration law and federal marijuana law really care about the legality of these mandates I can only shake my head.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on September 10, 2020, 08:58:00 AM
Oh I read it.
Reading does not equal comprehension.
Quote
It was snarky and arrogant. . .
True.

Quote
. . . like I'm supposed to start the political movement that topples the Illinois Democratic machine instead of bitching on an Internet forum...
Stranger things have happened, but if that's what you took from it then maybe you need to examine why YOU feel that way. Because that's not what I wrote.


Quote
I voted in every election since I was 18. When I realized after living in IL for 43 years that my vote was meaningless, I left.
So you gave up instead of fighting. It happens, and it's OK. Not everyone is born to be a fighter.

Quote
Again, I can't say I understand the "exception you pointed out" which is just a sentence. Your link leads to pages of legalese.
Ahhh! Now we're getting somewhere. If you had started with a statement that you don't understand, I'd have been happy to help you understand.

Quote
But if you're trying to tell me the people that ignore federal immigration law and federal marijuana law really care about the legality of these mandates I can only shake my head.
Not at all. I'm telling you that before you get all huffy about something you don't understand, maybe you should do the Conservative thing: take a step back and figure out what actually happened, what it actually means, and how it impacts you, society, and liberty.
So let me try to help you as to what all that 'legalese' (it really wasn't) is trying to say:

First: Title 77 of the Illinois Administrative Code is the section of the Admin Code that governs Public Health. The Illinois Administrative Code is all the implementing rules that the different agencies must follow, so since Title 77 is over Public Health, it's what everyone looks to for health related matters.


Second: In the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act, the Legislature gave the Executive the ability to create emergency rules, in addition to the normally slow, methodical, and plodding rulemaking procedures. These emergency rules stipulate that you can put a rule in place for 150 days, but you cannot put the same rule in place more than once in a 24-month period. However, you can work through the normal rulemaking process while the emergency rule is in effect.


Third: In order to create an emergency rule, there must BE an emergency, declared by the Governor. So we look to the Illinois Emergency Management Act (IEMA). IEMA states that the governor can declare an emergency for an open-ended list of reasons (that is, it's not an exhaustive list). Among them is epidemic. If he declares an emergency, then he has certain emergency powers for 30 days. After which, THOSE POWERS CEASE, BUT THE EMERGENCY IS STILL VALID. This is important.


Fourth: Taken together, this means that the governor can declare an emergency, have 30 days of emergency powers, then create a rule that lasts for 150 days. This gives you a total of 180 days to work with.


Lastly: If you look at the same part of the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act that gives emergency rulemaking authority, you will see that it exempts matters of public health (that is, Title 77). Because of the nature of those emergencies, the executive agencies can introduce multiple emergency rules until either a final rule is completed in accordance with the Act, the Governor ends the emergency, or the Legislature declares the emergency is ended (which is not in the current law, I'm just pointing out that they actually could do this at any time).


NOW: I will now pivot over to why that Illinois Policy link you gave doesn't say what you think it says (or what they want you to think it says). What Illinois Policy Center wants you to think it says is that this whole thing is horribly illegal. Here's what it actually says:


(1) There's an informal opinion drafted in 2001 that says the Governor can't do this. Several of these laws have been amended since 2001, including to plug the issues the 2001 AG brought up.  These were all minor technical administrative fixes that didn't garner any big hubbub at the time because nobody cares about the "little" details. (Oh wait, they're not so little after all, are they?)


(2) Darren Bailey petitioned the court to grant an injunction against the Governor's order. The court granted it. For him only. Bailey then realized he pleaded wrong and asked to file an amended lawsuit, because he wanted EVERYONE exempted, not just him. The Appeals Court said, "No." (Which is not in the story you linked, that's a more recent development in late July, because it takes time to work through the courts.) Before that no, however, the Governor asked the Supreme Court to intervene, as is his right to ask, and the Supreme Court said, "No." Which means it stays with the appellate court (who then issued their ruling of "no" to Bailey).


So let me give you the abridged version that doesn't come through clearly to people who aren't used to reading court cases (which is most of us; once you learn that skill, it really, really changes how you view the news):


BAILEY: This rule fucking sucks and there's a hurdle he hasn't met yet here.


DISTRICT COURT: Ok... you're technically correct in this area, but there are a dozen other areas you failed to cite so we'll grant you your order just to get you the fuck out of our court. It applies only to you.


BAILEY: Wait wait! That's not what I meant! I wanted everyone exempted! Here, here! I found this Memo that backs me up! Appeals Court, let me go back to the District and try again! Please vacate the order so I can start over!


GOVERNOR: Supreme Court, can we just fucking end this buffoonery now since we know this will get to you eventually?


SUPREME COURT: Oh fuck no. Ya'll finish having your tantrum down there. Don't make this my problem.


APPEALS COURT: Bailey? Yeah, fucking no. You don't get 2 bites at the apple. If that's what you wanted to plead, you should have fucking done it the first time around. Either you or your lawyer is an idiot.


BAILEY: Fine! I'm appealing to the Supreme Court!


SUPREME COURT: Are we going to put him on the docket? Uh... sure, I guess. But make him go through the normal proceedings, just like we told the governor. So we'll see you in... I dunno... January, maybe? Expect a ruling by next July. (Unless, of course, there's a final rule in place by then in which case the whole thing is moot and we don't rule on hypotheticals so... muwahahahaahahahaaha!)
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on September 10, 2020, 09:24:10 AM
Even 180 days will be up soon. I would be shocked if they will just stop all the mandate nonsense then, including rules from back in March.


Also "gave up" yeah I gave up on Illinois. It's been on a downward trend for 70 years or more. I went to Indiana where some people still believe in America.


Nice slight on me for "not fighting" LOL. Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is a thing.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on September 10, 2020, 09:31:36 AM
Glad to see a fellow Hoosier on the board.

Again: the 150 day rule just means they have to put a new one in place for Public Health. For any other rule, they couldn't do it twice in a 24-month period. For Public Health, they're exempted from that requirement and can just keep putting it in place until the emergency is ended.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on September 10, 2020, 11:06:11 AM
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.
You do realise that torts (with the exception of fraud) have only civil remedies available, right?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: The Spaniard on September 10, 2020, 11:16:31 AM
Glad to see a fellow Hoosier on the board.



Does an IU grad count?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on September 10, 2020, 11:19:36 AM
I'll allow it! (You know... for what authority I have... i.e., none.  8) )
Besides, how could I hate IU? My upper level degree is from there (undergrad in Wisconsin at a private school).
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: The Spaniard on September 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
Very cool.  Wisconsin has some good private schools.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: EOTB on September 17, 2020, 04:47:08 PM
Nashville city government doesn’t want to confirm good news (link to Nashville local news network affiliate report)


https://t.co/HAEicSwYzc (https://t.co/HAEicSwYzc)








Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on September 17, 2020, 08:21:48 PM
Nashville city government doesn’t want to confirm good news (link to Nashville local news network affiliate report)


https://t.co/HAEicSwYzc (https://t.co/HAEicSwYzc)
Yeah. Saw that one this morning...
and then they wonder why we don't believe them and refuse to kowtow to their mask mandates.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on September 17, 2020, 11:53:18 PM
CoronaChan will continue until the people say NO.

Until then, there's only individual disobedience.

It's so obviously a political tool (and has been for months). I rank Trump allowing the lockdown to continue past Easter (or having one at all) as Trump's major failure, and sadly, after 7 months, the easily broken people of this country have become conditioned into obedience by the MSM's daily litany of fear.

His wrong decision might well cost him re-election, and with that loss, next up is the loss of the nation to the marxist's "re-imagining" of America.


But after seeing people driving with masks on, eating outside by moving their masks aside to shove food in their piehole, watching them panic about masks while the next moment they are touching doors, ATMs, cash and their face...does America even deserve to continue?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 18, 2020, 08:12:10 AM
CoronaChan will continue until the people say NO.

Until then, there's only individual disobedience.

It's so obviously a political tool (and has been for months). I rank Trump allowing the lockdown to continue past Easter (or having one at all) as Trump's major failure, and sadly, after 7 months, the easily broken people of this country have become conditioned into obedience by the MSM's daily litany of fear.

His wrong decision might well cost him re-election, and with that loss, next up is the loss of the nation to the marxist's "re-imagining" of America.


But after seeing people driving with masks on, eating outside by moving their masks aside to shove food in their piehole, watching them panic about masks while the next moment they are touching doors, ATMs, cash and their face...does America even deserve to continue?
Federalism works both ways. If Trump's not allowed to bring federal troops in to quash treasonous (and I use that word deliberately) insurrectionists, he can't tell states to stop screwing around and get back to work.


Unfortunate, but them's the breaks. The smarter states need to start loosening their lockdowns, but a number of governors have been enamored of the power of 'emergency declarations'. Hopefully the recent smackdown in PA will start bringing them to their senses.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Chris24601 on September 18, 2020, 08:16:10 AM
I rank Trump allowing the lockdown to continue past Easter (or having one at all) as Trump's major failure, and sadly, after 7 months, the easily broken people of this country have become conditioned into obedience by the MSM's daily litany of fear.
You’re succumbing to another media narrative here though; that President Trump has anything to do with the ongoing lockdowns or that he can legally stop them.

All the lockdowns are entirely at the state level; if you go to South Dakota right now they’re completely open (and never shut down). All the Feds did was issue guidance recommendations (which were not required to be followed, see SD) and those ended April 30th (yes, the Feds ended all shutdown recommendations over four months ago).

Federal law doesn’t give President Trump the authority to override state governments on state health laws (except via court rulings, which need to be initiated by state residents to have standing).

If things suck in California, that’s on Gavin Newsom and a state legislature unwilling to rein him in. In fact, when you look at all the places maintaining heavy restrictions; they’re all blue states/cities who are hoping for exactly the reaction you’re having; to blame the President for your economic hardship that the Dems are actually inflicting on you.

Red states are mostly open to varying degrees with most of the mask mandates and continued shutdowns coming from corporations (ex. Walmart demanding masking for entry... McDonalds and other fast food places still allowing only drive thru) or Blue cities in the Red states adding extra restrictions.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 18, 2020, 12:34:43 PM
You’re succumbing to another media narrative here though; that President Trump has anything to do with the ongoing lockdowns or that he can legally stop them.
I think he could. The Supreme Court has almost completely ignored the 9th and 10th amendments, and interpreted the commerce, supremacy, and general welfare clauses so broadly that there are no clear limits to federal power. More than that, a challenge would have to wind through the courts, so any resolution is months or years down the line. If a mandate was overthrown or curtailed, it would amount to an after-the-fact rebuke, rather than actually stopping an overreach. In the meantime, it would likely stand, because both the courts and the legislature have a long history of deferring to the executive during a crisis. For a similar example, look at how the CDC just ruled that tenants don't have to pay their landlords, nationwide. Which is much greater exercise of power, because it's a confiscation of wealth that overrides private contracts. And they did it just by putting a notice in the Federal Register.

But I think it's admirable he hasn't.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on September 19, 2020, 05:42:42 PM
You’re succumbing to another media narrative here though; that President Trump has anything to do with the ongoing lockdowns or that he can legally stop them.
Darth Cheney and Obama were happy to exercise questionable uses of executive power to circumvent what was generally understood as separation of powers, and Trump could have done the same.

I'm NOT a fan of the wild expansion of Executive branch powers that has occurred heavily during the 21st century because what can be used by one President can be expanded by the next and that's a losing game. But in the case of CoronaChan being used by the leftists to cripple America, that required Executive action to stop and now its too late. Small business shutdowns are heartbreaking and no surprise that consumer confidence levels are plummeting...and that could cost Trump his gig and cost us our nation. Manufactured crisis is the fast track to commie-town. 

And yes, Gruesome Newsom owns the California lockdowns...much beloved by most of his voters. Same with the double idiocy inflicted by Garcetti, LA's moron mayor and London Breed of SanFranSicko.

BTW, the Shamdemic panic level was/is high in LA, but I escaped it easily by spending time in the neighboring beach towns in Ventura. However, there's been a real creepy turn as the election is heating up to seeing Ventura getting equally dumb as LA, and friends from other parts of the state reporting a steady uptick in fearmongering, especially as evidence against the sham keep mounting.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spike on September 23, 2020, 11:51:16 PM
I have had the supreme joy of leaving a state with very little to no mask insanity (North Dakota) to one with an almost absurd attachment to masking... to the point where I can not even sit and enjoy a meal in a restaraunt (to be blunt, North Dakota's food culture is abysmal. Truly, epically abysmal. Decent steak and... nope, that was it. Decent steak. And I like steak, but... you know, a pika needs a little variety. I'd hunt small children for food, but, wait, that's just more steak at the end of the day, isn't it?)


Where was I?


Oh, yeah. So I was certain I would be arrested during my stay for basically refusing to abridge my rights to bodily autonomy and my right to not breath my own halitosis all day long, but as it turns out... my mom is in fact a full blown Karen, in addition to being a true believer on masks. Literally my first day visiting she was calling some business to talk to the manager about an employee who had been wearing their mask improperly.  I'll face jail over this issue, but...


So, spineless wimp that I am, I dutifully wear the pathetically pointless symbol of my submission to Big Brother every time I go out for coffee. 


There is no joy in enjoying my first Lamb Korma in four fucking years.  I'm ready to go back to 'what is this and why is it swimming in grease' land, where I can at least sit and eat my mystery casseroles and my excellent and mostly cheap steak in peace and without sounding like darth vader's wimpy cousin.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on September 24, 2020, 12:36:56 AM
There is no joy in enjoying my first Lamb Korma in four fucking years.  I'm ready to go back to 'what is this and why is it swimming in grease' land, where I can at least sit and eat my mystery casseroles and my excellent and mostly cheap steak in peace and without sounding like darth vader's wimpy cousin.
I live in LA where I have the world's cuisine all around. I can walk to a dozen 4-star restaurants by wandering a mile or two. But I'd FAR rather cook something at home or go on a picnic than wear a face diaper surrounded by CoronaClowns larping they're in an ebola movie.

BTW, lamb korma is easy to make. Stupid easy if you get the sauce in a jar, with some jasmine rice (as Amazon delivers to the Dakota).
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spike on September 24, 2020, 12:36:56 PM
y'know... its not like I haven't made Indian food before.  I got an excellent shrimp dish recepie from a magazine twenty five years ago (so old it had Martina Hingis as the cover girl...) and I made it a couple of times, and later went to an Indian restaraunt that had more or less the same dish, name and all, and found I'd... done it right.


So why I haven't done this?  I dunno.. I keep getting hung up on my lack of chafing dishes, apparently.  Weird, especially since I've been eating it out of plastic bins in a paper bag because Olympia Washington (but not the suburb of Lacey... which no long has the Indian restaraunt I used to go to...) doesn't allow you to dine in.


So... thanks for reminding me that I'm actually a decent chef when I want to be!  :P
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on September 24, 2020, 07:01:38 PM
(but not the suburb of Lacey... which no long has the Indian restaraunt I used to go to...)
Was that the place out in front of the Fred Meyer?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on September 24, 2020, 09:54:36 PM
Restaurants are still closed here, Spike.

And a lot of other stuff going on, too.

So... could be worse.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spike on September 24, 2020, 11:58:16 PM
(but not the suburb of Lacey... which no long has the Indian restaraunt I used to go to...)
Was that the place out in front of the Fred Meyer?




Yeah. I think its a jewelry store now. Luckily the place on 4th street in Olympia is still quite excellent, even though I have to drag my food an hour back to the house to eat it.... wasting money on the naan that way.   




Sorry to hear about Australia, Kyle. That's hard news.   Tell ya what: If you tell me what sort of food you prefer, I'll devour a plate in your honor before I return to the Badlands.   
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on September 27, 2020, 04:57:28 AM
The front pages of most of our national newspapers yesterday were running the government's advert to download their coronavirus "track and trace" app. They can get fucked, like I'm ever doing that.

Absolutely incredible the lengths they will go to, to preserve the narrative that a seasonal virus that is of little threat to the majority, that has passed is somehow still a going concern. It wasn't even in the top 10 causes of death last month. There are only a handful of people hospitalised. But of course it's the second wave is only two weeks away...
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on September 28, 2020, 05:22:14 AM
Absolutely incredible the lengths they will go to, to preserve the narrative that a seasonal virus that is of little threat to the majority, that has passed is somehow still a going concern. It wasn't even in the top 10 causes of death last month. There are only a handful of people hospitalised. But of course it's the second wave is only two weeks away...
Covid-19 reporting is often sensationalist, but that's what the news does about everything from terrorist attacks to fires. It's not like it's a peculiarity of U.S. reporting or politics - countries ranging from Israel to South Korea have all treated considered this an extremely dangerous disease.

Do you have a source about the top 10 claim? From what I see, the average deaths per day is still around 800-900 per day in August, which puts it at #3 or #4. For the year, it's the #2 or #3 leading cause of death. For it to not be in the top ten, the death rate would have to be less than 130 deaths per day.

Treatment and the death rate getting better, but there's still a ton of cases. I just found out this week that my ex-mother-in-law in Houston had a fever and tested positive, which made my son very worried for his grandmother. She seems to be recovering well, but she described it as very scary. I agree that it's not a threat to the majority, but there's millions of people at risk for it still.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Trond on September 28, 2020, 09:56:01 AM
Absolutely incredible the lengths they will go to, to preserve the narrative that a seasonal virus that is of little threat to the majority, that has passed is somehow still a going concern. It wasn't even in the top 10 causes of death last month. There are only a handful of people hospitalised. But of course it's the second wave is only two weeks away...
Covid-19 reporting is often sensationalist, but that's what the news does about everything from terrorist attacks to fires. It's not like it's a peculiarity of U.S. reporting or politics - countries ranging from Israel to South Korea have all treated considered this an extremely dangerous disease.

Do you have a source about the top 10 claim? From what I see, the average deaths per day is still around 800-900 per day in August, which puts it at #3 or #4. For the year, it's the #2 or #3 leading cause of death. For it to not be in the top ten, the death rate would have to be less than 130 deaths per day.

Treatment and the death rate getting better, but there's still a ton of cases. I just found out this week that my ex-mother-in-law in Houston had a fever and tested positive, which made my son very worried for his grandmother. She seems to be recovering well, but she described it as very scary. I agree that it's not a threat to the majority, but there's millions of people at risk for it still.
I think one of the spooky things about Covid-19 is how unpredictable it is. Still, to me, there is something that does not quite ring true when people claim that certain attitudes are "unscientific", e.g. I have seen some old folks who refuse to wear masks unless they have to, people saying things like "they don't believe in science". To me, it is actually about values rather than data. It is clearly not the black death, nor even the Spanish flu. We make potentially decisions like driving every day. How much do we value the freedom to move about and breathe freely vs. the potential for catching or transmitting this disease? How many deaths are "acceptable"? (you could also add, how many people have died from the lockdowns, due to losing their jobs, depression, or people going nuts?) Clearly the old folks should be careful, but the conclusion you draw is actually pretty arbitrary. Different European countries have had wildly differing rules for handling it, and who's to say that they are wrong?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on September 28, 2020, 11:08:47 AM
Well and with Covid being "novel" and all the science is hardly settled.  So anyone accusing someone of "not following the science" is a fucking cultist.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2020, 11:23:21 AM
(you could also add, how many people have died from the lockdowns, due to losing their jobs, depression, or people going nuts?)


The UN is prediciting millions of deaths due to the economic impact of the shutdowns and disruption of economies.


https://unglobalcompact.org/take-action/20th-anniversary-campaign/covid-related%20hunger-could-kill-more-people-than-the-virus



Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2020, 03:31:39 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/09/23/houston-coronavirus-mutations/?arc404=true


Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on September 28, 2020, 06:07:38 PM
Covid-19 reporting is often sensationalist, but that's what the news does about everything from terrorist attacks to fires. It's not like it's a peculiarity of U.S. reporting or politics - countries ranging from Israel to South Korea have all treated considered this an extremely dangerous disease.

Do you have a source about the top 10 claim? From what I see, the average deaths per day is still around 800-900 per day in August, which puts it at #3 or #4. For the year, it's the #2 or #3 leading cause of death. For it to not be in the top ten, the death rate would have to be less than 130 deaths per day.

Treatment and the death rate getting better, but there's still a ton of cases. I just found out this week that my ex-mother-in-law in Houston had a fever and tested positive, which made my son very worried for his grandmother. She seems to be recovering well, but she described it as very scary. I agree that it's not a threat to the majority, but there's millions of people at risk for it still.
I'm in the UK, I'm talking about the UK, where more people died from influenza in August than covid. Our daily deaths are in the single figures lately. The uptick in "cases" isn't matched with a proportionate uptick in hospitalisations or deaths. Because the virus already killed all the most vulnerable people, and ultimately isn't all that deadly.

Didn't stop 12 million muppets downloading the track and trace app that doesn't work and breaches GDPR and who knows how many other data protection laws, though.

I think one of the spooky things about Covid-19 is how unpredictable it is. Still, to me, there is something that does not quite ring true when people claim that certain attitudes are "unscientific", e.g. I have seen some old folks who refuse to wear masks unless they have to, people saying things like "they don't believe in science". To me, it is actually about values rather than data. It is clearly not the black death, nor even the Spanish flu. We make potentially decisions like driving every day. How much do we value the freedom to move about and breathe freely vs. the potential for catching or transmitting this disease? How many deaths are "acceptable"? (you could also add, how many people have died from the lockdowns, due to losing their jobs, depression, or people going nuts?) Clearly the old folks should be careful, but the conclusion you draw is actually pretty arbitrary. Different European countries have had wildly differing rules for handling it, and who's to say that they are wrong?

I'll tell you what isn't acceptable: to put millions out of work (causing tens of thousands of deaths from suicides alone, never mind all the misery that flows from that level of unemployment) just to give a few thousand of the oldest and sickest people a few extra months of life.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2020, 06:19:55 PM
I'll tell you what isn't acceptable: to put millions out of work (causing tens of thousands of deaths from suicides alone, never mind all the misery that flows from that level of unemployment) just to give a few thousand of the oldest and sickest people a few extra months of life.


We don't even have to take that tradeoff. We know now that age is one of the big factors, so be careful visiting your grandparents.



Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on September 28, 2020, 08:18:22 PM
Lockdowns also don't seem to work. Not only are the states and countries that didn't lock down doing better economically, but the locations that lifted their lockdowns saw a drop in the transmission rate.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.24.20078717v1
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53664354
https://fee.org/articles/sweden-now-has-a-lower-covid-19-death-rate-than-the-us-here-s-why-it-matters/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8347635/Lockdowns-failed-alter-course-pandemic-JP-Morgan-study-claims.html
https://www.jpmorgan.com/country/US/en/research/covid-19-across-markets

Some of the effects of public policy were predictable (like the devastating effects due to the economic lockdowns or shoving sick people into nursing homes), but some of it was not. This is a very weird virus, and hasn't been behaving as expected. The drop in R0 after lockdowns were lifted, for instance. Or how death rates in Italy are correlated not with tight family groupings with multiple generations living in close proximity, as originally reported, but by the fragmentation of those tight family groupings -- the number of nursing home beds is a strong correlate. There's even some speculation that the hospitals are making the outbreak worse (though it's worth emphasizing that the latter is just speculation).

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200521151904.htm
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233329
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/covids-metamorphosis-has-lockdown-made-the-virus-more-deadly
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on September 28, 2020, 09:45:38 PM
I do not want anyone to call me a science denier which is why I personally follow the WHO recommendation to not wear a mask.
The science is settled people.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 28, 2020, 09:46:23 PM
I do not want anyone to call me a science denier which is why I personally follow the WHO recommendation to not wear a mask.
The science is settled people.
There's a call for you from someone named 'Karen'... :D
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on September 28, 2020, 11:02:14 PM
I do not want anyone to call me a science denier which is why I personally follow the WHO recommendation to not wear a mask.
The science is settled people.
There's a call for you from someone named 'Karen'... :D
Just got an email from Karan wanting to sell me 3000kg of Chloroquine Phosphate.  Must have been sorted to my junk mail by accident cause seems totally legit.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on September 29, 2020, 02:19:03 AM
Covid-19 reporting is often sensationalist, but that's what the news does about everything from terrorist attacks to fires. It's not like it's a peculiarity of U.S. reporting or politics - countries ranging from Israel to South Korea have all treated considered this an extremely dangerous disease.

Do you have a source about the top 10 claim? From what I see, the average deaths per day is still around 800-900 per day in August, which puts it at #3 or #4.
I'm in the UK, I'm talking about the UK, where more people died from influenza in August than covid. Our daily deaths are in the single figures lately. The uptick in "cases" isn't matched with a proportionate uptick in hospitalisations or deaths. Because the virus already killed all the most vulnerable people, and ultimately isn't all that deadly.
Sorry, Kiero. I missed what country you were from. Yes, after a huge peak in April, it seems like covid-19 deaths in the UK have now tapered off. Policy should be different based on what is going on in that country or area.

I'll tell you what isn't acceptable: to put millions out of work (causing tens of thousands of deaths from suicides alone, never mind all the misery that flows from that level of unemployment) just to give a few thousand of the oldest and sickest people a few extra months of life.
Within First World countries, economic recession does mean an uptick in suicides -- but it also means a downtick in many other causes of death, from traffic accidents to heart disease.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00210-0
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/recessions-dont-lead-to-an-overall-increase-in-deaths/

It's different for Third World countries, though, where many people are on the edge of starvation. There, economic downturn often means an uptick in the mortality rate. One can still argue for prioritizing the economy in First World countries - but the specific argument that it means saving lives should be based on actual death rates.

Lockdowns also don't seem to work. Not only are the states and countries that didn't lock down doing better economically, but the locations that lifted their lockdowns saw a drop in the transmission rate.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.24.20078717v1
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53664354
https://fee.org/articles/sweden-now-has-a-lower-covid-19-death-rate-than-the-us-here-s-why-it-matters/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8347635/Lockdowns-failed-alter-course-pandemic-JP-Morgan-study-claims.html
https://www.jpmorgan.com/country/US/en/research/covid-19-across-markets
Comparisons between different countries are always problematic - because their rates of infection and death differ due to differing populations and behavior. More crucially, whether government enacts a lockdown is not random. Countries are unlikely to institute lockdowns unless the covid-19 death rate is high. In order to compare between countries, you need to address this correlation. It's like concluding that hospitals don't make people healthy, because if you go in them, you see lots of sick and dying people -- and people outside of hospitals are less sick. But that's because people mostly go to the hospital *because* they are sick.

The paper from the first link does not have any discussion about the inherent correlation of lockdowns and death rate. Further, it has a single author whose field is oceanography. It has not yet been peer reviewed. I don't inherently dismiss it, but I don't think it should be taken as the final word. The lack of any approach to the systematics seems like a major missing piece.

I think Sweden's approach isn't crazy and I can understand advocating for it - but I think there are arguments both ways, which come down to rationally comparing evidence. Sweden has still had a huge economic recession, and it has a higher infection and death rate than it's neighboring countries Norway and Finland. Comparing it to Italy and Spain is more like apples and oranges.


Some of the effects of public policy were predictable (like the devastating effects due to the economic lockdowns or shoving sick people into nursing homes), but some of it was not. This is a very weird virus, and hasn't been behaving as expected. The drop in R0 after lockdowns were lifted, for instance. Or how death rates in Italy are correlated not with tight family groupings with multiple generations living in close proximity, as originally reported, but by the fragmentation of those tight family groupings -- the number of nursing home beds is a strong correlate. There's even some speculation that the hospitals are making the outbreak worse (though it's worth emphasizing that the latter is just speculation).

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200521151904.htm
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0233329
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/covids-metamorphosis-has-lockdown-made-the-virus-more-deadly
It is peculiar in many ways, and I appreciate the links to actual studies. I hadn't seen the study on Italy before - but it makes sense to me that nursing homes would be particularly vulnerable.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on September 30, 2020, 09:57:00 PM
I see my learned colleague jhkim beat  me to  the punch here, but just to add to it...

Lockdowns also don't seem to work. Not only are the states and countries that didn't lock down doing better economically, but the locations that lifted their lockdowns saw a drop in the transmission rate.

So just so we're on the same page here, your sources for this claim are, in order:

(1) A paper that was submitted for publication but never actually peer review AND was conducted SO EARLY in the pandemic as to be functionally useless. Plus, it was written by... an Oceanographer? I'll grant you he also does quite a lot of statistical analysis... but even the responses in that Article show flaws in his basic research when it comes to medical, pandemic, or virology issues.

(2) An article comparing Sweden's economy to the rest of the EU when Sweden objectively (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-sweden-gdp-falls-8pc-in-q2-worse-nordic-neighbors-2020-8) saw a larger fall in its economy and higher deaths than its neighbors? (Note: comparing Sweden to the entire rest of the EU is like comparing New York to Montana and saying that because traffic is terrible in New York, Montana should buy fewer cars.)

(3) An article that is going off of wildly exaggerated figures (i.e. lying through statistics) instead of, again, comparing apples-to-apples. They're comparing Sweden to all of the US. Again... traffic in New York doesn't mean people in Montana should buy fewer cars.

(4) An article from May, before the major US waves starting striking the South and parts of the Midwest, and published by a man (Dr. Kolonovac, PHD) and a company (JP Morgan) who have a literal economic interest in avoiding lockdowns and no medical interest in the same (outside of a vaccine).

and

(5) An article by the same company that's just a metadata trend and makes no judgement calls one way or another but is all about how to maximize your profitability here. (Nothing wrong with that, mind you.)


And, interestingly, not a single source from experts who actually specialize in infectious disease transmission.


Now, if you wanted to make an economic claim, these were mostly OK sources (the last 3 more than the first 2). If you wanted to make claims about the transmissible curb and the lockdowns, these sources seem weak, at best.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 01, 2020, 01:33:32 AM
Comparisons between different countries are always problematic - because their rates of infection and death differ due to differing populations and behavior. More crucially, whether government enacts a lockdown is not random. Countries are unlikely to institute lockdowns unless the covid-19 death rate is high. In order to compare between countries, you need to address this correlation. 
That's true, but it's an inherent problem with the field. Once we start talking about spread in the wider population and government policy, we've moved beyond biology to the macro social sciences and collective human behavior, where it's almost impossible to run controlled experiments with controls and predictions that are made and then tested. Instead, we have to rely on historical data, and not only does knowing how it works out beforehand make predictions suspect, but cherry picking and biases mean people looking at the same events come to completely opposite conclusions (this happens all the time -- look at how many different things are blamed for causing the Great Depression, for instance), building models and theories to fit historical patterns is rarely predictive in useful ways, and there are always excuses when they fail. Nonetheless, in this time of the coronavirus, places like Sweden, Japan, Belarus and so on are the closest we'll find to a control group. I have less faith than you in controlling for all relevant factors, because that decision itself is so highly subjective and can lead to almost all the problems with historical data.

The paper from the first link does not have any discussion about the inherent correlation of lockdowns and death rate. Further, it has a single author whose field is oceanography. It has not yet been peer reviewed. I don't inherently dismiss it, but I don't think it should be taken as the final word. The lack of any approach to the systematics seems like a major missing piece.

I think Sweden's approach isn't crazy and I can understand advocating for it - but I think there are arguments both ways, which come down to rationally comparing evidence. Sweden has still had a huge economic recession, and it has a higher infection and death rate than it's neighboring countries Norway and Finland. Comparing it to Italy and Spain is more like apples and oranges.

Now, if you wanted to make an economic claim, these were mostly OK sources (the last 3 more than the first 2). If you wanted to make claims about the transmissible curb and the lockdowns, these sources seem weak, at best.
I never said it was the final word, I just provided a source. I find it entertaining how many people with disparate backgrounds are publishing papers on sars2 -- which isn't completely inappropriate. A lot of researchers with medical backgrounds lack the statistical skills needed for these kinds of analyses, and we've been overvaluing people with M.D.s next to their names and undervaluing people with other skills. A virologist is an expert on diseases, but a masters or Ph.D. in some statistical field is often better at this kind of analysis, especially if it's combined with epidemiology. The area where it really became criminal, though, is economics. The public health lead in one state -- who has zero background in economics and never even worked in the private sector in her life -- kept talking about how the pandemic would affects the economy, how the lockdowns and other measures they took were to "save the economy", and how not locking down would be so much worse. Her statements were taken as the Word of Science!, when she literally has less background in the area than the average person on the street.

It also reflects more generally on the state of the science around COVID-19. Have you seen the retractions at the Lancet and the NEJM? I provided links many pages back on how weak most of the research on the topic has been, when measured against the standards of evidence-based medicine. Many highly influential studies that had a great impact on public policy were based on a tiny number of completely non-representative cases. Much of this is inevitable when it comes to a new disease, because massive randomized double-blind studies require a huge investment in time, money, and human resources. But we needed better messaging, that explains to the public not just what the latest study said, but the degree of certainty. Which is of course anathema to politicians, who want to be able to present clear easy solutions. They also lost the clinical judgment side; doctors make judgment calls in uncertain conditions all the time, but large organizations like the CDC and WHO want to wait for all the evidence to come in, so are bad at that; and as a result they were slow on some common sense measures like supporting masks. The data has gotten better, and stronger consensuses have emerged, but we're still in the early days. The weirdness of the disease certainly hasn't helped.

That's why I have been focusing more on the economic side lately. A disease is a public health issue, but lockdowns are an economic issue, so we should be hearing from both types of experts. But there's never been an economics Fauci -- and no, the Secretary of the Treasury doesn't count. He's an executive who came up through IT; he has no real economics training at all. The government and the news have almost entirely focused on public health officials, and taken their statements on economic matters as holy writ, which is nonsense. It's sheer ignorance on display when people like Cuomo proclaim that it's about saving lives, and that any life lost is too much, while they completely ignore all the people who will die or suffer serious effects because of the shutdowns. I mentioned earlier in the thread the UN report stating that hundreds of thousands of children were expected to die due to the lockdowns, (https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/policy_brief_on_covid_impact_on_children_16_april_2020.pdf) to the report from Well Being Trust that they expected as many as 75,000 suicides attributable to the disease in the US alone, (https://wellbeingtrust.org/areas-of-focus/policy-and-advocacy/reports/projected-deaths-of-despair-during-covid-19/) not to mention all the news coverage from places like India or Mexico on the horrendous effect the shutdowns have been having on the extremely poor.

Some new sources. Let's start with NPR, who yesterday ran a bit comparing Denmark and Sweden. They pointed out that the number who died in Sweden was a lot higher (6000ish compared to 700ish, IIRC; adjust for Sweden having almost twice as many people), but that Sweden's current death rate was about half Denmark's. They expect the death totals in the two countries to eventually converge (relative to population size), but that Sweden is and will be far better off economically. The guy they interviewed from Denmark talked about how it wasn't just the shutdowns, but how they varied erratically and kept getting turned on and off, that hurt business and drove away all their patrons. He went on to say he now thinks they should have done what Sweden did. I'm mostly mentioning this because I never expected a piece from NPR of all places to praise Sweden's response, which suggests it's getting wide traction.

Remember the Imperial College of London report, which early on on the pandemic used highly faulty models to predict over 2 million deaths in the US, and was the basis of a lot of policy? Even that report considered the lockdowns to be a short-term, temporary measures to flatten the curve. The whole purpose of that argument is to suppress the number of cases at any one time, in order not to overwhelm the hospital system, not to reduce the overall number of cases. In other words, Sweden front-loaded their deaths, but the rest of the world is catching up, and will eventually reach comparable numbers. Just at a much higher economic cost. I haven't seen any good explanation for the indefinite months-long lockdowns that ensued, except for political fear of high numbers now. There was a hammer and dance argument (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56) of intermittent lockdowns to keep the caseload relatively stable, but as the man from Denmark that NPR interviewed explained, an erratic series of lockdowns is really terrible for the economy, because businesses require predictability and it makes it hard for customers to plan or develop habits; and I don't think the actual curves we've seen in infection patterns vis-a-vis lockdowns match that plan. The rest of the arguments typically involve contract tracing or vaccines, but combine a lot of wishful thinking with a lack of specifics.

A few interesting links
https://accadandkoka.com/episodes/episode126/ non-MD epidemiologist (on kidney disease) on covid data
https://accadandkoka.com/captivate-podcast/episode140/ it's a minority view, but she makes a strong argument that we've reached herd immunity
https://accadandkoka.com/captivate-podcast/episode143-2/ difficulties with observational trials (gets a bit abstruse)
https://accadandkoka.com/captivate-podcast/episode131/ NJEM/Lancetgate
https://swprs.org/facts-about-covid-19/#latest tries to summarize the latest news/science (new source to me, familiar with some of the stuff like cross-immunity, but others I'm not so sure about -- links are great, tho)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext#%20 hard lockdowns don't protect the vulnerable
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/499394-the-covid-19-shutdown-will-cost-americans-millions-of-years-of-life one of the few attempts at an economic cost/benefit analysis of the shutdowns
https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/insight/2020/economic-impact/ estimate of economic damage
https://bfi.uchicago.edu/working-paper/covid-19-is-also-a-reallocation-shock/ 32-42% of jobs lost are permanently gone
https://bfi.uchicago.edu/working-paper/how-are-small-businesses-adjusting-to-covid-19-early-evidence-from-a-survey/ small businesses dying
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2677445 mortality increases based on the economic shock
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/5/2/21241261/coronavirus-modeling-us-deaths-ihme-pandemic the models suck
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on October 01, 2020, 08:56:41 PM
I keep sneezing my boogers everywhere and STILL no piles of dead bodies!!

According to the CatDogCat, the 2020 flu season is now upon us!
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season.htm)

Anybody think the face diaper hysteria will end after the next flu season? That's April 2021.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on October 02, 2020, 08:20:05 PM
Comparisons between different countries are always problematic - because their rates of infection and death differ due to differing populations and behavior. More crucially, whether government enacts a lockdown is not random. Countries are unlikely to institute lockdowns unless the covid-19 death rate is high. In order to compare between countries, you need to address this correlation. 
That's true, but it's an inherent problem with the field. Once we start talking about spread in the wider population and government policy, we've moved beyond biology to the macro social sciences and collective human behavior, where it's almost impossible to run controlled experiments with controls and predictions that are made and then tested. Instead, we have to rely on historical data, and not only does knowing how it works out beforehand make predictions suspect, but cherry picking and biases mean people looking at the same events come to completely opposite conclusions (this happens all the time -- look at how many different things are blamed for causing the Great Depression, for instance), building models and theories to fit historical patterns is rarely predictive in useful ways, and there are always excuses when they fail. Nonetheless, in this time of the coronavirus, places like Sweden, Japan, Belarus and so on are the closest we'll find to a control group. I have less faith than you in controlling for all relevant factors, because that decision itself is so highly subjective and can lead to almost all the problems with historical data.
I don't understand the last comment. From my point of view, you're the one who has strong faith in your sources. I'm claiming that I don't have a problem with Sweden's approach, but also don't have a problem with Norway's approach -- because I think there is room for uncertainty within the range of research results.

That doesn't mean ignore the experts. It means that in this case, not everything is yet settled. (a) This is a very new disease, (b) there are rushed studies with varying results, and (c) there are some inherent uncertainties particularly within issues of public policy. I'm a big advocate of science, but there are strict limits on how much we can know - particularly within less than a year. Also, physical and biological sciences are much more solid than behavioral sciences like psychology, economics, and public policy.

Your position seems that you know for sure that the lockdowns don't work and do not save lives, and no country should use a lockdown.


It also reflects more generally on the state of the science around COVID-19. Have you seen the retractions at the Lancet and the NEJM? I provided links many pages back on how weak most of the research on the topic has been, when measured against the standards of evidence-based medicine. Many highly influential studies that had a great impact on public policy were based on a tiny number of completely non-representative cases. Much of this is inevitable when it comes to a new disease, because massive randomized double-blind studies require a huge investment in time, money, and human resources. But we needed better messaging, that explains to the public not just what the latest study said, but the degree of certainty. Which is of course anathema to politicians, who want to be able to present clear easy solutions.
While politicians generally suck -- I think it is reasonable to speak in clear simple terms when trying to explain things to the general public. The details should be available and up for debate among those more deeply involved, but having a clear and simple front-line message is a usual part of leadership. (i.e. Politicians suck, but using clear and simple language to communicate to the public isn't one of the main reasons they suck.) When government agencies like The Fed equivocate and give hedging answers emphasizing error bars, it can hurt consumer and citizen confidence, which can have negative effects on its own.

I agree that there is still a lot we don't know about the disease, because of a lack of time and investment in things like full double-blind trials.


A disease is a public health issue, but lockdowns are an economic issue, so we should be hearing from both types of experts. But there's never been an economics Fauci -- and no, the Secretary of the Treasury doesn't count. He's an executive who came up through IT; he has no real economics training at all. The government and the news have almost entirely focused on public health officials, and taken their statements on economic matters as holy writ, which is nonsense. It's sheer ignorance on display when people like Cuomo proclaim that it's about saving lives, and that any life lost is too much, while they completely ignore all the people who will die or suffer serious effects because of the shutdowns. I mentioned earlier in the thread the UN report stating that hundreds of thousands of children were expected to die due to the lockdowns, (https://www.un.org/sites/un2.un.org/files/policy_brief_on_covid_impact_on_children_16_april_2020.pdf) to the report from Well Being Trust that they expected as many as 75,000 suicides attributable to the disease in the US alone, (https://wellbeingtrust.org/areas-of-focus/policy-and-advocacy/reports/projected-deaths-of-despair-during-covid-19/) not to mention all the news coverage from places like India or Mexico on the horrendous effect the shutdowns have been having on the extremely poor.
I'm not an economist and so I'm not taking a definite position on the economic effects, but some things stand out to me. First of all, many people attribute all of the economic downturn to the lockdowns, which is nonsensical. As one analysis puts it, "The evidence suggests that the labour markets of all countries were severely hit by the pandemic, but Sweden performed slightly better than its neighbours."

https://voxeu.org/article/labour-market-effects-covid-19-sweden-and-its-neighbours

And as I noted earlier, comparisons between countries are always tricky because there are many uncontrolled variables. Does this mean that if Italy hadn't had a lockdown, it's economy would be doing better? That isn't clear to me. If Italy didn't lockdown, then I strongly suspect that there would have been major citizen and consumer unrest after the spike in covid-19 deaths. I don't know what effect that would have on the economy, and I think it isn't completely clear.

Some other points:

1) I have not read the full Well Being Trust paper yet - but 75,000 American suicides due to covid seems unbelievable, given that there are less than 50,000 suicides per year in the U.S. And I've already given links that in other economic recessions, the overall mortality rate generally goes *down* rather than up in First World countries.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/recessions-dont-lead-to-an-overall-increase-in-deaths/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00210-0
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5362282/

2) Well Being Trust appears to be a public charity launched in 2016 by a private Catholic hospital network. It's report is not peer-reviewed or published elsewhere, and I don't see what sort of cross-checks or reviews there are of it.

3) The U.N. report on children in Third World countries is bleak - but it also isn't factually contradictory to claims of saving lives within New York when it was having a spike in covid-19 deaths. I would be interested in seeing strategies about how to save many of those children. I suspect one of those would involve sending more food aid to Third World countries.


The whole purpose of that argument is to suppress the number of cases at any one time, in order not to overwhelm the hospital system, not to reduce the overall number of cases. In other words, Sweden front-loaded their deaths, but the rest of the world is catching up, and will eventually reach comparable numbers. Just at a much higher economic cost.
Here you're making a definite prediction - that you know for sure how the rest of the world will compare with Sweden, while previously you had been claiming that there is not great data on covid-19 - and furthermore claimed that *I* was the one with faith in my sources.

Again, here, I think it's the opposite. You claim to know for sure the Sweden's approach is right and Norway's was wrong, but I think that it's still up in the air. Furthermore, even if it turns out that the death toll does eventually balance out -- that doesn't mean that it was unreasonable for Norway to take the approach it did at the time.


A few interesting links
https://accadandkoka.com/episodes/episode126/ non-MD epidemiologist (on kidney disease) on covid data
https://accadandkoka.com/captivate-podcast/episode140/ it's a minority view, but she makes a strong argument that we've reached herd immunity
https://accadandkoka.com/captivate-podcast/episode143-2/ difficulties with observational trials (gets a bit abstruse)
https://accadandkoka.com/captivate-podcast/episode131/ NJEM/Lancetgate
https://swprs.org/facts-about-covid-19/#latest tries to summarize the latest news/science (new source to me, familiar with some of the stuff like cross-immunity, but others I'm not so sure about -- links are great, tho)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext#%20 hard lockdowns don't protect the vulnerable
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/499394-the-covid-19-shutdown-will-cost-americans-millions-of-years-of-life one of the few attempts at an economic cost/benefit analysis of the shutdowns
https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/insight/2020/economic-impact/ estimate of economic damage
https://bfi.uchicago.edu/working-paper/covid-19-is-also-a-reallocation-shock/ 32-42% of jobs lost are permanently gone
https://bfi.uchicago.edu/working-paper/how-are-small-businesses-adjusting-to-covid-19-early-evidence-from-a-survey/ small businesses dying
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2677445 mortality increases based on the economic shock
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/5/2/21241261/coronavirus-modeling-us-deaths-ihme-pandemic the models suck

I'm going through a number of these. The second-to-last one is looking only at a sample of people in a narrow age range (51 to 61) going through sudden loss of wealth. It's not contradictory with the overall result of reduced mortality from several other papers.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 03, 2020, 10:53:22 AM
Comparisons between different countries are always problematic - because their rates of infection and death differ due to differing populations and behavior. More crucially, whether government enacts a lockdown is not random. Countries are unlikely to institute lockdowns unless the covid-19 death rate is high. In order to compare between countries, you need to address this correlation. 
That's true, but it's an inherent problem with the field. Once we start talking about spread in the wider population and government policy, we've moved beyond biology to the macro social sciences and collective human behavior, where it's almost impossible to run controlled experiments with controls and predictions that are made and then tested. Instead, we have to rely on historical data, and not only does knowing how it works out beforehand make predictions suspect, but cherry picking and biases mean people looking at the same events come to completely opposite conclusions (this happens all the time -- look at how many different things are blamed for causing the Great Depression, for instance), building models and theories to fit historical patterns is rarely predictive in useful ways, and there are always excuses when they fail. Nonetheless, in this time of the coronavirus, places like Sweden, Japan, Belarus and so on are the closest we'll find to a control group. I have less faith than you in controlling for all relevant factors, because that decision itself is so highly subjective and can lead to almost all the problems with historical data.
I don't understand the last comment. From my point of view, you're the one who has strong faith in your sources. I'm claiming that I don't have a problem with Sweden's approach, but also don't have a problem with Norway's approach -- because I think there is room for uncertainty within the range of research results.
This is why I find it frustrating talking to you. I never said anything like that. Look at the context -- you were talking about controlling for various factors when comparing data between countries. My entire paragraph is addressing that point, and the final sentence is my conclusion that I don't have as much faith as you do that they can control for those factors in a useful way. It requires some bizarre contortion to read a statement where I'm expressing uncertainty and jump to the conclusion that it's an expression of blind faith.

Your position seems that you know for sure that the lockdowns don't work and do not save lives, and no country should use a lockdown.
Nope. My position is that lockdowns may save lives (in the short term, at least -- see the flatten the curve discussion) -- but lockdowns also cost lives. We need to stop counting lives lost in hospital beds, while ignoring all the deaths of despair and the shortened lifespans caused by the economic shutdown.

We already had this discussion, many pages back. The shutdowns aren't just about cosmetic things, like people being unable to get haircuts (unless they're the Speaker of the House). They're about lives. Spousal abuse is up, suicides are up, kids have lost at least a year of schooling, depression is up, we're seeing all kinds of problems related to lack of social contact, the generation that just graduated are failing to launch, lifetime earnings are being impacted, businesses are dying like flies, people are being evicted, people are losing their jobs, people are losing their health insurance, people aren't sure what's happening to their retirement plans. This results in deaths, in lowered lifespans, in lowered health outcomes, in fewer educational opportunities, in fewer jobs, in fewer medical innovations, and in less capacity to deal with things like a pandemic. This affects people now, but also through the rest of their lives and even into future generations.

We need to be careful to only include the effects that are specific to the shutdowns not the wider pandemic for instance, but conversely that applies to the lack of a shutdown as well -- how many covid-19 deaths a shutdown would prevent, not the total death toll. And it's become very clear, based on an overwhelming amount of evidence, that the shutdowns cost more lives than they save.

And even if the evidence wasn't overwhelming, the shutdowns are horrific transgression on basic rights. Like the right to assemble. The right to visit your friends. The right to have a job. The right to go shopping. The right to leave your home. These are extraordinary measures, extraordinary expansions of government power, and extraordinary infringements on nearly everyone's life. As a result, the burden of proof that these measures are necessary should be extraordinary.

While politicians generally suck -- I think it is reasonable to speak in clear simple terms when trying to explain things to the general public. The details should be available and up for debate among those more deeply involved, but having a clear and simple front-line message is a usual part of leadership. (i.e. Politicians suck, but using clear and simple language to communicate to the public isn't one of the main reasons they suck.) When government agencies like The Fed equivocate and give hedging answers emphasizing error bars, it can hurt consumer and citizen confidence, which can have negative effects on its own.
I disagree completely. "Preventing panic" is used all the time as an excuse to lie to the public. I find that despicable from a moral standpoint, but also from a practical one. Once you start lying to the public (and it is lying when you pretend to have simple answers when they don't exist), you lose all public trust, which defeats the entire purpose of these kind of agencies.

I'm not an economist and so I'm not taking a definite position on the economic effects, but some things stand out to me. First of all, many people attribute all of the economic downturn to the lockdowns, which is nonsensical.
I never made that argument. I made the opposite, in fact, earlier in this very post.

1) I have not read the full Well Being Trust paper yet - but 75,000 American suicides due to covid seems unbelievable, given that there are less than 50,000 suicides per year in the U.S.
You should probably adjust your expectations. The British Journal of Psychiatry estimates there were 10,000 suicides related to the 2008 recession over a span of 3 years, which was a far milder from a psychological standpoint because it didn't force a highly social mammal into lengthy social isolation. The WBT paper is also both broader and narrower in scope (tries to account for all related deaths, but country-specific). I'll try to dig it up, but I don't think that was the source I was looking for. I think I originally read a comparable estimate (70K? 90K?) from another organization.

You're fixated on excess deaths. That's completely the wrong approach. Death rates this year are well below last year. Does that mean we should ignore all the COVID-19 deaths? Of course not. We still have a pandemic, even if a host of related factors are driving down deaths from other causes.

3) The U.N. report on children in Third World countries is bleak - but it also isn't factually contradictory to claims of saving lives within New York when it was having a spike in covid-19 deaths. I would be interested in seeing strategies about how to save many of those children. I suspect one of those would involve sending more food aid to Third World countries.
Food aid to foreign countries mostly goes to prop up local regimes, and little reaches the people who need it. People who talk about how we just need X dollars to end global poverty ignore that we've spent many times that amount and it never worked.

...  considered the lockdowns to be a short-term, temporary measures to flatten the curve. The whole purpose of that argument is to suppress the number of cases at any one time, in order not to overwhelm the hospital system, not to reduce the overall number of cases. In other words, Sweden front-loaded their deaths, but the rest of the world is catching up, and will eventually reach comparable numbers. Just at a much higher economic cost.
Here you're making a definite prediction - that you know for sure how the rest of the world will compare with Sweden, while previously you had been claiming that there is not great data on covid-19 - and furthermore claimed that *I* was the one with faith in my sources.
No, no, and no. Again, you're ignoring the context. I'm not making a prediction, of any sort. I'm explaining the logic behind the "flatten curve" argument.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: jhkim on October 03, 2020, 09:50:29 PM
Your position seems that you know for sure that the lockdowns don't work and do not save lives, and no country should use a lockdown.
Nope. My position is that lockdowns may save lives (in the short term, at least -- see the flatten the curve discussion) -- but lockdowns also cost lives. We need to stop counting lives lost in hospital beds, while ignoring all the deaths of despair and the shortened lifespans caused by the economic shutdown.
And it's become very clear, based on an overwhelming amount of evidence, that the shutdowns cost more lives than they save.
You say "nope" - but this is exactly what I meant. You claim to know for certain about the lives saved and cost from the lockdowns - that the sum effect of the lockdowns is "very clear". To you, the science is settled and that there is no question.

This is in contrast to our seeming agreement elsewhere that the disease is very new, and there is a lot of uncertainty about it. Furthermore, I don't think that the economic life cost is cut-and-dried either. There's considerable evidence that mortality is reduced in economic recession, which is lives *saved* rather than lives *lost*. I'll respond in more detail later, but I think this is the root of our clash.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 04, 2020, 08:13:39 AM
You say "nope" - but this is exactly what I meant. You claim to know for certain about the lives saved and cost from the lockdowns - that the sum effect of the lockdowns is "very clear". To you, the science is settled and that there is no question.

This is in contrast to our seeming agreement elsewhere that the disease is very new, and there is a lot of uncertainty about it. Furthermore, I don't think that the economic life cost is cut-and-dried either. There's considerable evidence that mortality is reduced in economic recession, which is lives *saved* rather than lives *lost*. I'll respond in more detail later, but I think this is the root of our clash.
No again. Look, words matter. Certain means indisputable. I don't think any of this beyond dispute. I don't think the science is settled (incidentally, that's a very icky phrase). Those are your words, and I completely reject them. Science is based on evidence, not on inviolate beliefs. I think there's a lot of evidence against the lockdowns, especially given the weight of the burden of proof, but that doesn't translate into absolute surety. Taking what I say, and replacing the words with words with completely different meanings, completely transforms the meaning.

Nor does that conflict in any way with the idea that this is a new disease, and we're still in the early stages. But note I also qualified that. I also said that things have gotten better. We have more information, and there's more consensus. We're still at the beginning, but no longer completely in the dark. To adapt Rumsfield's construction, the number of unknown unknowns have diminished.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on October 04, 2020, 04:25:18 PM
To adapt Rumsfield's construction, the number of unknown unknowns have diminished.

That seems like it would be a hard thing to measure.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 04, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
To adapt Rumsfield's construction, the number of unknown unknowns have diminished.

That seems like it would be a hard thing to measure.
Not directly, but if we have a poor grasp on something, and then we start getting a handle on it, then by inference we can assume what we don't know has decreased.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on October 04, 2020, 05:44:46 PM
To adapt Rumsfield's construction, the number of unknown unknowns have diminished.

That seems like it would be a hard thing to measure.
Not directly, but if we have a poor grasp on something, and then we start getting a handle on it, then by inference we can assume what we don't know has decreased.
OK, but you have nothing to really use for measuring whether you now know enough for it to matter at all. If you increase your understanding by 1000% it sounds great...until you later discover you only started at less than 0.0001% understanding...and later still find out that figure was being extremely generous.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 04, 2020, 05:56:20 PM
To adapt Rumsfield's construction, the number of unknown unknowns have diminished.

That seems like it would be a hard thing to measure.
Not directly, but if we have a poor grasp on something, and then we start getting a handle on it, then by inference we can assume what we don't know has decreased.
OK, but you have nothing to really use for measuring whether you now know enough for it to matter at all. If you increase your understanding by 1000% it sounds great...until you later discover you only started at less than 0.0001% understanding...and later still find out that figure was being extremely generous.
That's true in the abstract, but this is a disease. We have some knowledge of how they operate, so there's a framework in place we can use to assess what we know and don't know. It probably won't suddenly grow to kaiju size and stomp Tokyo, after all.

The trick with sars2 was twofold: One, a lot of politicians, public health officials, and the media gave the impression things were far more settled than they actually were. And two, it's a weird disease. A lot of initial assumptions were wrong, and some of the weird things got blown out of proportion. But we have a much better idea of how it's spread, the real (IFR) fatality rate, and so on; while there's still uncertainty about things like the long term effects and prevalence.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on October 04, 2020, 07:43:26 PM
I don't know if the 75k suicides in half of 2020 vs. 50k average annual is accurate, however I could see it being true for this reason alone: lockdowns caused social isolation, thus the breaking of people's formal and informal support groups.

Here's a bet. I suspect next year's national standardized testing will be ignored by the MSM, and only limited articles will exist. I'm also expecting teacher's unions to push for abolishing of all standardized testing because the massive damage to the nation's children won't be undone.

Most especially with the youngest students who have lost critical building blocks and will be forced to stumble grade to grade without fundamental tools. Combine that with vastly diminished special education and the problem escalates, which will result in further dumbing down of education standards to cover the asses of teachers.

Of course, the breaking of America's children is a grand boon to the Marxists.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on October 04, 2020, 08:41:53 PM
We could get lucky and the increased interest in alternative schooling may break the union's back.
People are starting to realize how garbage the public education system has become thanks to online schooling this year.

It may be the one positive thing to come out of the WuFlu lockdown...
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on October 04, 2020, 09:53:18 PM
There's considerable evidence that mortality is reduced in economic recession, which is lives *saved* rather than lives *lost*.
If this is true, we should endeavour to be permanently in recession. Good luck taking that as your election platform :)

Of course, there's also quality of life...
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Shasarak on October 04, 2020, 10:09:35 PM
If the Government takes away everyones car then there will be no more car deaths!

Genius!
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on October 04, 2020, 10:52:31 PM

If this is true, we should endeavour to be permanently in recession. Good luck taking that as your election platform :)

Of course, there's also quality of life...

You are talking about leftists.  They want everyone to have equal quality of life...equally poor and miserable.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 05, 2020, 08:34:47 AM
There's considerable evidence that mortality is reduced in economic recession, which is lives *saved* rather than lives *lost*.
If this is true, we should endeavour to be permanently in recession. Good luck taking that as your election platform :)

Of course, there's also quality of life...
Yep. jhkim is absolutely right that the overall deaths drop during a recession -- but nobody likes recessions. Which really highlights how we make decisions. We take risks every day, like driving to the restaurant and possibly getting in a car crash, instead of ordering delivery, because we value a good, interesting life with many experiences more than being safe shut-ins. So the argument that we need to take every measure possible to eliminate any possibility of death just isn't a choice real humans would ever make on their own.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 05, 2020, 08:38:34 AM
We could get lucky and the increased interest in alternative schooling may break the union's back.
People are starting to realize how garbage the public education system has become thanks to online schooling this year.

It may be the one positive thing to come out of the WuFlu lockdown...
There's been a big surge in interest in home schooling. I don't have any direct experience, but from what I've heard, the tools for home schooling have really improved in the last few years. The resources and support available has gotten a lot better, so it's not as daunting as it once was.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: rgalex on October 05, 2020, 08:48:00 AM

If this is true, we should endeavour to be permanently in recession. Good luck taking that as your election platform :)

Of course, there's also quality of life...

You are talking about leftists.  They want everyone to have equal quality of life...equally poor and miserable.

I don't recall where I heard it, but somewhere I saw someone claim that while capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth, socialism/communism is the equal distribution of poverty.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on October 05, 2020, 08:58:33 AM
We could get lucky and the increased interest in alternative schooling may break the union's back.
People are starting to realize how garbage the public education system has become thanks to online schooling this year.

It may be the one positive thing to come out of the WuFlu lockdown...
There's been a big surge in interest in home schooling. I don't have any direct experience, but from what I've heard, the tools for home schooling have really improved in the last few years. The resources and support available has gotten a lot better, so it's not as daunting as it once was.

I do have direct experience.  I've also been paying attention to trends in the movement for 20+ years now.  The moderate estimates by the various home schooling movements puts the increase this fall as about double compared to last year--from about 4 million students to about 8 million.  It is difficult to say for sure, because that estimate is trying not to count "pod schools", neighborhoods hiring tutors directly, and other such alternatives, but only true home schooling.  Nor is it counting virtual school that is still administered by public, private, or parochial schools.  Since the lines get blurry between true home school, pod school, and the like, it could be off.

Also, unlike true home schooling, we have no history of how permanent the interest will be.  Home schooling is not for everyone, but the rates across the country have been steadily increasing for longer than my family was involved, with retention rates that have been fairly steady.  No one really knows how the new alternatives will be received long term.

Finally, the one thing that has really sparked the huge explosion over the last decade or so is--funny enough--radical changes in the public/home school cooperation in a few states.  Florida is particularly notable for this.  There was a huge fight several years ago, legislature versus the teacher's union, that basically was won by the legislature.  They changed the law that meant a student did not need to withdraw fully from a public school to take advantage of home school.  If the parent wanted to teach their grade school kids English/reading, let the public school do the rest, it was allowed. If the parent wanted to do everything else but let the kids participate in sports or band or take the school's chemistry courses, that was allowed.  Funding was done in proportion.  It only took a couple of years for most administrators to discover that a partially participating kid with good grades and a lot of motivation to do well was an overall boon--versus not getting credit for the kid at all.  They also discovered that such kids were a good example to others.

Ergo, the battle is not just public school versus everything else but the wedges within the public schools over--well a whole lot but not least those in public schools that really do care about kids and those that don't.

Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2020, 09:00:20 AM
I don't recall where I heard it, but somewhere I saw someone claim that while capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth, socialism/communism is the equal distribution of poverty.
It's a quote widely attributed to Winston Churchill.

A lot of the problem stems from the question of labor and its worth. Labor in itself has no intrinsic value; any value it possesses is derived from the results of said labor.

Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 05, 2020, 09:34:47 AM
A lot of the problem stems from the question of labor and its worth. Labor in itself has no intrinsic value; any value it possesses is derived from the results of said labor.
That's one of the root problems with socialism: It's based on the labor theory of value. Which is part of classical economics -- Adam Smith used it in The Wealth of Nations. But it was also the biggest failure of classical economists. None of their theories could explain why diamonds, which are fundamentally useless trinkets, are worth more than water, which is necessary to life. More generally, they couldn't explain why some things cost more than others, so they fell back on the idea that it was based on the amount of work it took to bring those things to market. Which is clearly wrong, because not only are workers with certain skills valued more than workers with other skills, but digging holes and then filling them again is work, but completely pointless (yes, I'm making a dig at Keynes).

More than that, accounting for different values of work, and even capital, doesn't really explain prices. That had to wait until the marginal revolution in the late 19th century, when they figured out prices aren't based on labor or capital, but on what the next person who buys something is willing to pay. If that theoretical person has plenty of water, then they're going to put a very low value on buying even more water. OTOH, buying diamonds, even at an exorbitant price, might start looking attractive, since their basic needs are already met. (Diamonds are also scarce, so supply & demand.) This is what economists mean when they talk about marginal costs, or the costs on the margin -- it's the price a person who hasn't bought something yet, but is next in line if the prices drop, is willing to pay.

This is also why a lot of calculations that just sum up values don't work in the real world. If the current price for something is $1 and you sold 1,000 in the last year, that doesn't mean 10,000 of the things are worth $10,000. Because the people who bought the 1,000 last year were the 1,000 people who valued it at $1 or more. If someone else out there was willing to pay $1 for it, you would have sold 1,001. The 1,001th person might be interested in the product, just not enough to spend $1. So to get 10,000 people to buy it, you need to lower the price. Therefore the value of 10,000 is not 10,000 times the current price. And to bring it back to labor, wages are just another price. They're set based on a worker's marginal value to the next employer.

The marginal revolution is the foundation of literally every modern school of economics, except socialism.

And for no particular reason, I segued into a basic economics lesson....
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2020, 10:16:43 AM
A lot of the problem stems from the question of labor and its worth. Labor in itself has no intrinsic value; any value it possesses is derived from the results of said labor.
That's one of the root problems with socialism: It's based on the labor theory of value. Which is part of classical economics -- Adam Smith used it in The Wealth of Nations. But it was also the biggest failure of classical economists. None of their theories could explain why diamonds, which are fundamentally useless trinkets, are worth more than water, which is necessary to life. More generally, they couldn't explain why some things cost more than others, so they fell back on the idea that it was based on the amount of work it took to bring those things to market. Which is clearly wrong, because not only are workers with certain skills valued more than workers with other skills, but digging holes and then filling them again is work, but completely pointless (yes, I'm making a dig at Keynes).

More than that, accounting for different values of work, and even capital, doesn't really explain prices. That had to wait until the marginal revolution in the late 19th century, when they figured out prices aren't based on labor or capital, but on what the next person who buys something is willing to pay. If that theoretical person has plenty of water, then they're going to put a very low value on buying even more water. OTOH, buying diamonds, even at an exorbitant price, might start looking attractive, since their basic needs are already met. (Diamonds are also scarce, so supply & demand.) This is what economists mean when they talk about marginal costs, or the costs on the margin -- it's the price a person who hasn't bought something yet, but is next in line if the prices drop, is willing to pay.

This is also why a lot of calculations that just sum up values don't work in the real world. If the current price for something is $1 and you sold 1,000 in the last year, that doesn't mean 10,000 of the things are worth $10,000. Because the people who bought the 1,000 last year were the 1,000 people who valued it at $1 or more. If someone else out there was willing to pay $1 for it, you would have sold 1,001. The 1,001th person might be interested in the product, just not enough to spend $1. So to get 10,000 people to buy it, you need to lower the price. Therefore the value of 10,000 is not 10,000 times the current price. And to bring it back to labor, wages are just another price. They're set based on a worker's marginal value to the next employer.

The marginal revolution is the foundation of literally every modern school of economics, except socialism.

And for no particular reason, I segued into a basic economics lesson....
Yeah, but I think you got the particulars right. I've been working on reading Thomas Sowell's stuff, so some of this is pretty familiar.

Another angle to consider for labor is how much training and skill it requires. Artificially overpricing labor (via minimum wage) leads to such fun things as hiring illegals to pay under the table or the exploration of new systems such as automated cashiers. I am astonished we haven't had a resurgence of automats, to be honest.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on October 05, 2020, 10:21:37 AM
We could get lucky and the increased interest in alternative schooling may break the union's back.
People are starting to realize how garbage the public education system has become thanks to online schooling this year.

It may be the one positive thing to come out of the WuFlu lockdown...
There's been a big surge in interest in home schooling. I don't have any direct experience, but from what I've heard, the tools for home schooling have really improved in the last few years. The resources and support available has gotten a lot better, so it's not as daunting as it once was.

One thing that has the unions upset is that the increased interest breaks down with the same general population percentages as our political parties. That means the increase is across political boundaries...
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on October 05, 2020, 10:26:12 AM

And for no particular reason, I segued into a basic economics lesson....

That's ok.  If the current love of socialism/communism is any indicator more people could use it...
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 05, 2020, 10:46:01 AM
Yeah, but I think you got the particulars right. I've been working on reading Thomas Sowell's stuff, so some of this is pretty familiar.

Another angle to consider for labor is how much training and skill it requires. Artificially overpricing labor (via minimum wage) leads to such fun things as hiring illegals to pay under the table or the exploration of new systems such as automated cashiers. I am astonished we haven't had a resurgence of automats, to be honest.
Sowell's Basic Economics is a good starting point for anyone interesting in economics. Or Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson. Those are probably the two easiest entry points for a general audience.
https://store.mises.org/Economics-in-One-Lesson-FREE-P11168.aspx

Minimum wages are just a type of price fixing, and the consequence of price fixing is always shortages. When the government fixes the price of bread, the producers will make less bread, leading to bread lines. The same applies when you fix the price of wages; jobs will vanish.

Sowell in particular does a good job of laying out why this is especially bad for marginal groups. For instance, before minimum wages were first instituted in the 1950s, black unemployment was lower than white unemployment. But after the minimum wage was set, the unemployed rate remained fairly flat for white men, but skyrocketed among black men, especially the young. There are two reasons at play. One is racism on the margins -- if there are few jobs and lots of people applying, employers can be picky, even when it comes to factors that don't affect production. So they can toss all those black resumes in the garbage, even if that includes some highly qualified workers, and it won't hurt their bottom line. But before the minimum wage, you could pay black workers less for the same work, so there was a strong economic incentive to hire them. In other words, tight job markets encourage discrimination, while a high demand for workers actively discourages it.

Two is actual skill level. Blacks were generally less skilled than whites, at the time. So when the job market tightens, they're disproportionately affected, because the least skilled are the first to lose their jobs, and the last to gain new ones. This is worse that it sounds, because it has long term effects. Since young workers are the least skilled, they're hit particularly hard. If they can't get jobs right away, this prevents them from building their resumes and developing the job skills needed to become more highly valued workers. So the minimum wage didn't just prevent young black workers from getting jobs, it hindered their advancement. That reduced their lifetime earnings, which in turn affects things like the money they have available for things like healthcare and education for their kids, so the disadvantages are passed down from generation to generation.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on October 06, 2020, 03:01:48 PM
The WHO is now estimating that 760 million world-wide have been infected with the Wuhan virus.
IF that is accurate and the number of confirmed deaths (~1 million) is accurate, then the fatality rate is only 0.13%.
The WHO estimates the seasonal death rate from the flu is ~1%.

You only have a 99.9% of surviving! 
Make your time now!
You are DOOMED!
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 06, 2020, 03:11:57 PM
The WHO estimates the seasonal death rate from the flu is ~1%.
You added a decimal point. The case fatality rate for seasonal influenza is about 0.1%, but that's only based on the documented cases. The actual infection fatality rate is estimated at half to quarter that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/antibody-tests-support-whats-been-obvious-covid-19-is-much-more-lethal-than-flu/2020/04/28/2fc215d8-87f7-11ea-ac8a-fe9b8088e101_story.html
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on October 06, 2020, 03:18:13 PM
The WHO is now estimating that 760 million world-wide have been infected with the Wuhan virus.
IF that is accurate and the number of confirmed deaths (~1 million) is accurate, then the fatality rate is only 0.13%.

It's not. The WHO says you are off by double and then an order of magnitude: there are around 35  million cases, not 760 million. You can check their dashboard.

That makes the mortality rate 3%. That's actually very high for a rabidly infectious disease where we have therapeutics and basic treatments. Bubonic plague's mortality rate, when treated, is between 1% and 10%. (Now, when treated, COVID's rate is probably significantly lower than 3%, but I don't have that data easily on hand.)
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 06, 2020, 03:28:25 PM
That makes the mortality rate 3%. That's actually very high for a rabidly infectious disease where we have therapeutics and basic treatments. Bubonic plague's mortality rate, when treated, is between 1% and 10%. (Now, when treated, COVID's rate is probably significantly lower than 3%, but I don't have that data easily on hand.)
That's way too high. Here's a source that collates the estimated infection fatality rates of COVID-19 from numerous studies in various countries:
https://swprs.org/studies-on-covid-19-lethality/
Ignoring the outliers (like Japan's 0.01%), most are in the 0.1% to 0.5% range.

Even the much cited and highly flawed Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz and Merone paper only claims a 0.68% global infection fatality rate.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.03.20089854v4
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on October 06, 2020, 03:36:12 PM
All I can say is look at the dashboard, since DocJones listed the WHO as his source. (https://covid19.who.int/ (https://covid19.who.int/))

Confirmed Cases: 35,347,404
Deaths: 1,039,406

That's about 3%. I make no claim to that being right or wrong, just that's what the raw math is. 
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: DocJones on October 06, 2020, 03:38:07 PM
The WHO is now estimating that 760 million world-wide have been infected with the Wuhan virus.
IF that is accurate and the number of confirmed deaths (~1 million) is accurate, then the fatality rate is only 0.13%.

It's not. The WHO says you are off by double and then an order of magnitude: there are around 35  million cases, not 760 million. You can check their dashboard.

WHO: 10% of world’s people may have been infected with virus (https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-archive-united-nations-54a3a5869c9ae4ee623497691e796083)

Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on October 06, 2020, 03:43:19 PM
WHO: 10% of world’s people may have been infected with virus (https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-archive-united-nations-54a3a5869c9ae4ee623497691e796083)

Well then, I stand corrected.  That is their current estimate. I was operating off confirmed numbers instead of estimates and shouldn't have been for your claim.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 06, 2020, 03:44:55 PM
All I can say is look at the dashboard, since DocJones listed the WHO as his source. (https://covid19.who.int/ (https://covid19.who.int/))

Confirmed Cases: 35,347,404
Deaths: 1,039,406

That's about 3%. I make no claim to that being right or wrong, just that's what the raw math is.
You're making a mistake. You're confusing the number of confirmed cases with the total number of cases. The number you're deriving is the case fatality rate (CFR), not the infection fatality rate (IFR). The IFR is the real death rate, but takes population-wide tests to estimate. The CFR is available earlier, but it's not a very useful number. Particularly for a disease with a large number of asymptomatic cases, and where the symptoms can be very mild and are hard to distinguish from other diseases.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Delete_me on October 06, 2020, 03:48:28 PM
Yup, I see that now. Thank you for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Spinachcat on October 06, 2020, 04:33:52 PM
There's been a big surge in interest in home schooling. I don't have any direct experience, but from what I've heard, the tools for home schooling have really improved in the last few years.

This is correct. Home schooling is NEVER going to be easy. To truly succeed (doubly so if the child has special needs), it requires active and consistent parent involvement, parent discipline of themselves and their children and continuous research by the parent into the learning process.

Beyond the obvious tools like online classes and educational videos, the most interesting and powerful "new" tool is local homeschooling parents uniting in collectives where they share best practices, volunteer tutoring using their prime skills and group activities and field trips. My friend's son is in a "homeschool" soccer league! They play against other homeschool leagues and charter schools.

As much as I loathe social media, I must admit it's been a positive for this growth in homeschool collectives might not have happened without Farcebook.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: HappyDaze on October 06, 2020, 07:15:01 PM
There's been a big surge in interest in home schooling. I don't have any direct experience, but from what I've heard, the tools for home schooling have really improved in the last few years.

This is correct. Home schooling is NEVER going to be easy. To truly succeed (doubly so if the child has special needs), it requires active and consistent parent involvement, parent discipline of themselves and their children and continuous research by the parent into the learning process.

Beyond the obvious tools like online classes and educational videos, the most interesting and powerful "new" tool is local homeschooling parents uniting in collectives where they share best practices, volunteer tutoring using their prime skills and group activities and field trips. My friend's son is in a "homeschool" soccer league! They play against other homeschool leagues and charter schools.

As much as I loathe social media, I must admit it's been a positive for this growth in homeschool collectives might not have happened without Farcebook.
Collectives, comrade?
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: moonsweeper on October 06, 2020, 08:33:45 PM

Collectives, comrade?

Is there some sort of problem with 'voluntary' collectives??  Sounds like freedom of association to me.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 07, 2020, 08:57:30 AM

Collectives, comrade?

Is there some sort of problem with 'voluntary' collectives??  Sounds like freedom of association to me.
One of the most functional and stable forms of collective is purely voluntary.

Of course, most leftists get their panties in a twist when you point out it's a monastery or convent.

Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Pat on October 07, 2020, 09:26:37 AM
Another example of a voluntary collective is the kibbutzim of Israel. Unlike state-driven top-down socialism which always leads to horrors, voluntary communal associations have a long and modestly successful history, at least at the small- and mid-scale. The largest historical examples are the Free Territory of the Ukraine after the October Revolution, and revolutionary Catalonia in the 1930s, but they didn't last long; you can make a good argument they don't work at large scales. Kropotkin is probably the most important theoretician on the topic, and there's a fairly fleshed-out example of a kropotkinesque society in Ursula K. LeGuin's science fiction novel, The Dispossessed. She's sympathetic, but honest about the sacrifices required, leading to the book's subtitle "An Ambiguous Utopia".

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread/
https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/reviews/books/0-06-105488-7.html (review of The Dispossessed)

Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on October 07, 2020, 10:10:49 AM
There's been a big surge in interest in home schooling. I don't have any direct experience, but from what I've heard, the tools for home schooling have really improved in the last few years.

This is correct. Home schooling is NEVER going to be easy. To truly succeed (doubly so if the child has special needs), it requires active and consistent parent involvement, parent discipline of themselves and their children and continuous research by the parent into the learning process.

Beyond the obvious tools like online classes and educational videos, the most interesting and powerful "new" tool is local homeschooling parents uniting in collectives where they share best practices, volunteer tutoring using their prime skills and group activities and field trips. My friend's son is in a "homeschool" soccer league! They play against other homeschool leagues and charter schools.

As much as I loathe social media, I must admit it's been a positive for this growth in homeschool collectives might not have happened without Farcebook.

Useful education of any kind is not easy.  Home schooling is not unique in that respect.  There always questions scale with education.  Student/Teacher ratios are barely starting that discussion.  Obviously, home schooling has a ceiling for scale that means those issues are always there. 

However, there are also problems with scale on the other end.  There are problems with institutionalized anything.  Obviously, there are questions of motivations for all involved.  Thus there are times when home schooling is less trouble than the other available alternatives.  You can "buy back" a lot of lost ground from the difficulties of home schooling simply from the fact that home schooling means the kids typically get more sleep and have less of their time wasted during the day. 
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: RandyB on October 07, 2020, 10:55:37 AM

Collectives, comrade?

Is there some sort of problem with 'voluntary' collectives??  Sounds like freedom of association to me.
One of the most functional and stable forms of collective is purely voluntary.

Of course, most leftists get their panties in a twist when you point out it's a monastery or convent.



Voluntary collectives are the *only* functional and stable ones.

And monasteries and convents are the most functional and stable of them all.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on October 07, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
Has anyone seen the Great Barrington Declaration from a few days ago?

https://gbdeclaration.org/

The epidemologists (not bureaucrats like Fauci) saying all along we should have not done the lockdowns. Just like Sweden, Belarus, and now Netherlands are doing.

Further protections for the oldest with this disease was the sensible path.

I don't know all the motivations or the weightings of those in our insane mainstream media but this has to be the biggest and most successful hysteria in world history.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 08, 2020, 08:27:54 AM
Don't worry Hawkwing, those doctors will be shortly flagged as evil Trump supporting white supremacists in 3, 2...
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on October 08, 2020, 09:30:53 AM
Useful education of any kind is not easy.  Home schooling is not unique in that respect.  There always questions scale with education.  Student/Teacher ratios are barely starting that discussion.  Obviously, home schooling has a ceiling for scale that means those issues are always there. 

However, there are also problems with scale on the other end.  There are problems with institutionalized anything.  Obviously, there are questions of motivations for all involved.  Thus there are times when home schooling is less trouble than the other available alternatives.  You can "buy back" a lot of lost ground from the difficulties of home schooling simply from the fact that home schooling means the kids typically get more sleep and have less of their time wasted during the day.

My wife and I are currently homeschooling our 5 year old daughter. It's been a royal pain in the ass, but 100% worth it. Had she gone to kindergarten like she was supposed to, she'd be learning about shapes and ABCs and other normal crap, instead she's reading on around a 3rd grade level and can do 1st grade math without issue, I figure she'll be 3rd grade math by the end of next May and who knows how good her reading will be. Also learning real history, gets religious education, does a lot of science, etc. Just a classical education instead of some bullshit indoctrination.


I realize I'm in a more unique position than a lot of other people in that my wife and I are both qualified to teach school and have a lot of education ourselves, but my buddy's wife (who is not well educated at all) asked us for materials and help and she's homeschooling her kids just fine. In my opinion, most people are just lazy as fuck and use school as some sort of daycare system and just cross their fingers their kids will learn stuff.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Steven Mitchell on October 08, 2020, 11:06:41 AM
Brad,

I had two kids that went home school K-12.  If you ever want to discuss anything about it in particular, feel free to PM.  Glad to hear it is working out great for you.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Brad on October 08, 2020, 11:49:34 AM
Brad,

I had two kids that went home school K-12.  If you ever want to discuss anything about it in particular, feel free to PM.  Glad to hear it is working out great for you.

Thanks, I appreciate the offer.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Koltar on October 12, 2020, 02:37:36 AM
The Lockdowns and limited retail hours in Ohio contributed to the permanent shutdown and closing of the store where I have worked for 17 years.

No more Gaming store in the nearby mall for me to go work in.

-Edmund C
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: dkabq on October 12, 2020, 05:03:16 AM
https://nypost.com/2020/10/11/who-warns-against-covid-19-lockdowns-due-to-economic-damage/

SCIENCE!
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: KingCheops on October 12, 2020, 11:55:42 AM
The Lockdowns and limited retail hours in Ohio contributed to the permanent shutdown and closing of the store where I have worked for 17 years.

No more Gaming store in the nearby mall for me to go work in.

-Edmund C

Condolences dude.  That's terrible.

So far my FLGS in my area have stayed open but I can't imagine they're doing too hot.  Not being able to host Magic releases is a death sentence.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Kiero on October 16, 2020, 03:48:33 AM
Has anyone seen the Great Barrington Declaration from a few days ago?

https://gbdeclaration.org/

The epidemologists (not bureaucrats like Fauci) saying all along we should have not done the lockdowns. Just like Sweden, Belarus, and now Netherlands are doing.

Further protections for the oldest with this disease was the sensible path.

I don't know all the motivations or the weightings of those in our insane mainstream media but this has to be the biggest and most successful hysteria in world history.

Lockdown-lovers are already trying to discredit it by signing it with silly names and crowing about it on Twatter.
Title: Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on October 26, 2020, 07:34:30 PM
Illiniois, at least the more populated counties, is locking down again. Die, small business owners!! Should have learned to code or something.

I'm glad that other people's fear of a virus with a 99.97% survival rate for non-elderly means I don't have to commute right now but I really fear how this bodes for an authoritarian future.

It's also an example of epic goal-post moving, when before it was flatten the curve and now we are worried about case counts, many asymptomatic. I guess people really want absolutist government when they are afraid.