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Author Topic: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.  (Read 40398 times)

Ghostmaker

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #900 on: December 02, 2020, 10:31:14 AM »

Absolutely, I would even submit, lack of consequences from helicopter parenting and the notion that everyone gets a trophy is a particularly toxic manifestation of this problem, and it is woefully obvious in a large portion of those subjected to such nonsense. Growth almost always stems from adversity, not the avoidance of it.
Dear God, yes. It's like we've raised an entire generation of kids with the psychological equivalent of immunodeficiency disorder. They've got no capacity to shrug things off, no ability to forgive (show me how well leftists do that. I'll wait. I won't hold my breath), and a belief that 'intentions' and 'lived experiences' somehow trump hard data and results.

OK, not ALL of them. But enough that it's a serious problem.

Pat

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #901 on: December 02, 2020, 10:56:36 AM »

Absolutely, I would even submit, lack of consequences from helicopter parenting and the notion that everyone gets a trophy is a particularly toxic manifestation of this problem, and it is woefully obvious in a large portion of those subjected to such nonsense. Growth almost always stems from adversity, not the avoidance of it.
Dear God, yes. It's like we've raised an entire generation of kids with the psychological equivalent of immunodeficiency disorder. They've got no capacity to shrug things off, no ability to forgive (show me how well leftists do that. I'll wait. I won't hold my breath), and a belief that 'intentions' and 'lived experiences' somehow trump hard data and results.

OK, not ALL of them. But enough that it's a serious problem.
That's the basic thesis of The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt. It's an expansion of this article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/


shuddemell

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #902 on: December 02, 2020, 11:19:58 AM »

Absolutely, I would even submit, lack of consequences from helicopter parenting and the notion that everyone gets a trophy is a particularly toxic manifestation of this problem, and it is woefully obvious in a large portion of those subjected to such nonsense. Growth almost always stems from adversity, not the avoidance of it.
Dear God, yes. It's like we've raised an entire generation of kids with the psychological equivalent of immunodeficiency disorder. They've got no capacity to shrug things off, no ability to forgive (show me how well leftists do that. I'll wait. I won't hold my breath), and a belief that 'intentions' and 'lived experiences' somehow trump hard data and results.

OK, not ALL of them. But enough that it's a serious problem.
That's the basic thesis of The Coddling of the American Mind: How Good Intentions and Bad Ideas Are Setting Up a Generation for Failure by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt. It's an expansion of this article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

I have read that article, albeit a while ago, and have hoped to get a chance to read more in the book. Haidt is prescient about a lot of things going on in society and particularly in higher education. He does a long form interview with Dr. Jordan Peterson about this issue:

https://youtu.be/4IBegL_V6AA

Another book that addresses this phenomenon pretty well is "The Vanishing American Adult" by Ben Sasse. The fragility they have all noticed in incoming students is simply the tip of a bigger cancer eating away Western society, that the level of prosperity we enjoy has also made our younger generations neither appreciative nor resilient. It always puts me in mind of the old saw "Hard men bring about easy times, easy times bring about soft men, and soft men bring about hard times."
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

Ghostmaker

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #903 on: December 02, 2020, 11:28:52 AM »

I have read that article, albeit a while ago, and have hoped to get a chance to read more in the book. Haidt is prescient about a lot of things going on in society and particularly in higher education. He does a long form interview with Dr. Jordan Peterson about this issue:

https://youtu.be/4IBegL_V6AA

Another book that addresses this phenomenon pretty well is "The Vanishing American Adult" by Ben Sasse. The fragility they have all noticed in incoming students is simply the tip of a bigger cancer eating away Western society, that the level of prosperity we enjoy has also made our younger generations neither appreciative nor resilient. It always puts me in mind of the old saw "Hard men bring about easy times, easy times bring about soft men, and soft men bring about hard times."
The left's truly bizarre reactions to Dr. Peterson are absolutely fascinating. The man is no conservative by any stretch, and yet his blunt advice (which harkens back to old Dale Carnegie self-help books) drives them bonkers.

shuddemell

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #904 on: December 02, 2020, 11:36:20 AM »

I have read that article, albeit a while ago, and have hoped to get a chance to read more in the book. Haidt is prescient about a lot of things going on in society and particularly in higher education. He does a long form interview with Dr. Jordan Peterson about this issue:

https://youtu.be/4IBegL_V6AA

Another book that addresses this phenomenon pretty well is "The Vanishing American Adult" by Ben Sasse. The fragility they have all noticed in incoming students is simply the tip of a bigger cancer eating away Western society, that the level of prosperity we enjoy has also made our younger generations neither appreciative nor resilient. It always puts me in mind of the old saw "Hard men bring about easy times, easy times bring about soft men, and soft men bring about hard times."
The left's truly bizarre reactions to Dr. Peterson are absolutely fascinating. The man is no conservative by any stretch, and yet his blunt advice (which harkens back to old Dale Carnegie self-help books) drives them bonkers.

Yes, he's a classical liberal by any reasonable interpretation, but the real issue is he stood up to their inane and insane pronouncements in response to Canadian bill c16. Primarily because he rightly understood that it actually compelled speech which is in contradiction to freedom of speech and British common law going back centuries. He refused publicly to do so, and was labeled transphobic as a result (the bill sought to force people to use "preferred" pronouns under penalty of law). Interestingly, even his colleagues and peers at the University he was teaching at tried to force him to accede to the demands. Fortunately due to his character and obstinate nature, he refused and rightly so. The left cannot tolerate dissent, free speech, free thought and anything else they cannot control. At the root, it is their desire to mold you in their image (because they believe themselves both the moral and intellectual superiors of everyone) and their inchoate confusion and self righteous rage at being defied. It's gone so far for them to disingenuously label him alt-right and a nazi, which is laughable in the extreme.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 11:41:27 AM by shuddemell »
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

KingCheops

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #905 on: December 02, 2020, 12:59:29 PM »
The really funny thing is he repeatedly stated that if someone prefers to use certain pronouns they should just tell him and he'll gladly do so.  His objection was purely to the government compelling the action.

shuddemell

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #906 on: December 02, 2020, 01:23:54 PM »
The really funny thing is he repeatedly stated that if someone prefers to use certain pronouns they should just tell him and he'll gladly do so.  His objection was purely to the government compelling the action.

Exactly, though it really does highlight just how adverse to dissent the "tolerant" party really is. At one time liberals defended free speech.... though that time seems long gone now.
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

Ghostmaker

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #907 on: December 02, 2020, 01:27:10 PM »
The really funny thing is he repeatedly stated that if someone prefers to use certain pronouns they should just tell him and he'll gladly do so.  His objection was purely to the government compelling the action.

Exactly, though it really does highlight just how adverse to dissent the "tolerant" party really is. At one time liberals defended free speech.... though that time seems long gone now.
Yup.

The 'marketplace of ideas' has suddenly become infested with officious little bastards demanding everything be sanitized to the nth degree and insisting that 'some ideas' are 'too dangerous'.

shuddemell

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #908 on: December 02, 2020, 01:29:46 PM »
The really funny thing is he repeatedly stated that if someone prefers to use certain pronouns they should just tell him and he'll gladly do so.  His objection was purely to the government compelling the action.

Exactly, though it really does highlight just how adverse to dissent the "tolerant" party really is. At one time liberals defended free speech.... though that time seems long gone now.
Yup.

The 'marketplace of ideas' has suddenly become infested with officious little bastards demanding everything be sanitized to the nth degree and insisting that 'some ideas' are 'too dangerous'.

Ignorance is far more dangerous than any idea... Exposing bad ideas to the light of day and scrutiny is the only way they don't fester and recrudesce into something far more malignant, and worse suppressing them magnifies that malignancy 100 fold.
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

jhkim

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #909 on: December 02, 2020, 02:23:24 PM »
Quote from: shuddemell
In particular, you have hit on why government has worse outcomes that private sector efforts. It's not an "inherent" difference in efficiency, it's a lack of negative consequences in governmental institutions for failure.

Yes. And this has applications for child-rearing, education - and roleplaying games. If you never allow people to fail, they can't get better. So in roleplaying games, you must ask whether you want a passive experience like watching a movie, or an active participatory experience like playing a game of tennis, where you expect to be challenged (not overwhelmed, but challenged) and gradually strive to improve your play.

Absolutely, I would even submit, lack of consequences from helicopter parenting and the notion that everyone gets a trophy is a particularly toxic manifestation of this problem, and it is woefully obvious in a large portion of those subjected to such nonsense. Growth almost always stems from adversity, not the avoidance of it.

Bringing this a little back to government-vs-private... I'm not that trained in economics - but to Kyle's point, I'm well-informed on child-rearing, education, and role-playing games.

I totally agree that growth stems from adversity, and am anti-helicopter-parenting. I've tried my best to raise my son to be independent and learn from his own failures.

But this isn't about public vs. private. I know from experience that private schools are *full* of helicopter parents and sheltered little snowflakes. While private schools have higher test results, that is entirely from the kids being richer and having the best money can buy for them. When the same kids are put in public and private, their test scores are basically equal.

Lots of my liberal friends complain the exact same way about helicopter parents and spoiled, over-privileged kids. While some things like pronoun usage are partisan, the broader issue of adversity is not. While conservatives complain about liberal tech billionaires and the elite with their spoiled children -- liberals complain just as much about conservative billionaires and the top 1% with their spoiled children.

It's a generational issue. There have been broad changes across both conservatives and liberals over the last two generations. Lots of them might even agree in principle that adversity is good, but if their *own* child fails, then it's clearly the fault of the goddamn school administrators or the like, not their child, who's a Good Kid.

People need to be allowed to fail, to be held accountable for their failures, for them to learn and grow.

shuddemell

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #910 on: December 02, 2020, 02:53:31 PM »
That largely goes to show just how far extreme leftist views have infiltrated our educational system. For there, even private schools are affected. Generations of that nonsense have created helicopter parenting and the "no one" fails attitude. It's largely generational because too many generations have been subjected to that nonsense.
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.Bruce Lee

He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

jhkim

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #911 on: December 02, 2020, 05:50:18 PM »
That largely goes to show just how far extreme leftist views have infiltrated our educational system. For there, even private schools are affected. Generations of that nonsense have created helicopter parenting and the "no one" fails attitude. It's largely generational because too many generations have been subjected to that nonsense.

You're classifying it as an "extreme leftist view", but it sounds like you're agreeing that it's a view that goes through both public and private schools, and both Democrats and Republicans, right?

I don't agree about the label, but it's just a label. I agree that helicopter parenting is a problem, and it requires a cultural change to fix.

HappyDaze

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #912 on: December 02, 2020, 06:20:50 PM »
Well, I did day one at running my testing site (still inactive) and I quit on the spot. The ineptitude in the administration was astounding, and the lack of training and equipment being offered was terrible. While I saw nothing in the testing that would indicate it would give false readings, there was a market push to get the clinics placed near wealthier neighborhoods and "get the word out" to them...and. while the tests are not particularly expensive, they are not free.

I still believe that COVID is a real health issue (but not the end of the world), but I have lost my trust in another player in the central Florida healthcare system. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have minded the money for the gig so long as I felt we were doing the right thing, but that's not what I was seeing there and my tolerance for bullshit just wasn't having it today.

Pat

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #913 on: December 02, 2020, 06:32:49 PM »
Well, I did day one at running my testing site (still inactive) and I quit on the spot. The ineptitude in the administration was astounding, and the lack of training and equipment being offered was terrible. While I saw nothing in the testing that would indicate it would give false readings, there was a market push to get the clinics placed near wealthier neighborhoods and "get the word out" to them...and. while the tests are not particularly expensive, they are not free.
Are they just rushing the process, and if so why? And what was bad about the equipment?

HappyDaze

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #914 on: December 02, 2020, 06:54:52 PM »
Well, I did day one at running my testing site (still inactive) and I quit on the spot. The ineptitude in the administration was astounding, and the lack of training and equipment being offered was terrible. While I saw nothing in the testing that would indicate it would give false readings, there was a market push to get the clinics placed near wealthier neighborhoods and "get the word out" to them...and. while the tests are not particularly expensive, they are not free.
Are they just rushing the process, and if so why? And what was bad about the equipment?
Everything is rushed. No training standards and no dedicated preceptors/educators allotted to assist in training (at least none that didn't also say "fuck this, I'm out" like I did). Supply chain is non-existent (but I was assured it was "under development") and supplies were drawn from various sources without standardization. Why is it rushed? Because we gotta get people tested so they can have a Merry Christmas together... That's my cynical guess.