Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.

[spon]

Are those hospital beds being filled by people who are being hospitalized because of Covid-19?

Yes. The people in the ICUs are all on oxygen with the worst being intubated as they can't breathe on their own. Does that sound like "elective" surgeries to you? They have been cancelling elective surgeries so they have room in the ICUs for the COVID-19 patients.

Here's a link (for England, which is over the first peak).
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-declining-admissions-to-intensive-care-units/

If you look at the graph, you see that 90% of cases (at the peak) were on mechanical ventilators - which is now down to 30 (ish)%. America (apart from NY) is in the "approaching the peak" stage. So if things are the same for you as they were for us, 90% of your ICU patients will be on mechanical ventilators. Most of those are from COVID-19 symptoms, not elective surgeries. They have symptoms severe enough to put them onto mechanical respirators.  
It's that 90% peak that the shutdowns are trying to make as short as possible - and remember that the 90% peak may hide excess deaths. If you've run out of mechanical respirators, that's not good for any new cases that need them.

[spon]

So, no, it doesn't make any sense. It's total and utter horseshit. This disease is "just the flu", but not even as bad. Outside of literally a handful of cases, the only people dying are the elderly and sickly, and that is what we call life. Gotta die from something.

That's ok Brad, I'd love to live in your world where we haven't had all those excess deaths who just happen to test positive for Coronavirus (those who get tested, anyway).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending19june2020

Hope you don't have any aging relatives that you'll be coming into close contact with. They're the ones you are putting in danger. Stay safe.

[Ghostmaker]

That's ok Brad, I'd love to live in your world where we haven't had all those excess deaths who just happen to test positive for Coronavirus (those who get tested, anyway).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending19june2020

Hope you don't have any aging relatives that you'll be coming into close contact with. They're the ones you are putting in danger. Stay safe.

Not a problem in New York. Governor Cuomo ordered them to all be housed together so they'd die off and not be a burden.

Why, yes, I am accusing Cuomo the Lame-o of deliberately boosting the deaths in his state for stupid political points.

[moonsweeper]

Yes. The people in the ICUs are all on oxygen with the worst being intubated as they can't breathe on their own. Does that sound like "elective" surgeries to you? They have been cancelling elective surgeries so they have room in the ICUs for the COVID-19 patients.

Here's a link (for England, which is over the first peak).
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-declining-admissions-to-intensive-care-units/

If you look at the graph, you see that 90% of cases (at the peak) were on mechanical ventilators - which is now down to 30 (ish)%. America (apart from NY) is in the "approaching the peak" stage. So if things are the same for you as they were for us, 90% of your ICU patients will be on mechanical ventilators. Most of those are from COVID-19 symptoms, not elective surgeries. They have symptoms severe enough to put them onto mechanical respirators.  
It's that 90% peak that the shutdowns are trying to make as short as possible - and remember that the 90% peak may hide excess deaths. If you've run out of mechanical respirators, that's not good for any new cases that need them.

I wasn't really asking about the UK...I was just curious why the death 'rate' in the US is a decreasing slope if the 'cases and hospitalizations' are 'spiking'?

[HappyDaze]

Are those hospital beds being filled by people who are being hospitalized because of Covid-19?

Or are they people finally getting their elective surgeries that just happen to test positive for the antibodies and are asymptomatic or only have mild symptoms and therefore not at risk?

I would like to see the break down on that if you can provide some links.

I can't provide links--some of the information I have is internal to my organization--but these (200+ in the last two weeks) are patients hospitalized for acute respiratory conditions linked to positive tests for COVID-19. Asymptomatic people don't get hospitalized regardless of whether they test positive or not. Patients being registered for surgery get tested for COVID-19 and, if they test positive, it is at the provider's discretion whether to go ahead with the surgery (guaranteed for emergent, life-saving measures) or to delay it until they retest with negative results (guaranteed for fully elective procedures). Surgeries that improve quality of life but are not emergent have some wiggle room.

Yes. The people in the ICUs are all on oxygen with the worst being intubated as they can't breathe on their own. Does that sound like "elective" surgeries to you? They have been cancelling elective surgeries so they have room in the ICUs for the COVID-19 patients.

Here's a link (for England, which is over the first peak).
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-declining-admissions-to-intensive-care-units/

If you look at the graph, you see that 90% of cases (at the peak) were on mechanical ventilators - which is now down to 30 (ish)%. America (apart from NY) is in the "approaching the peak" stage. So if things are the same for you as they were for us, 90% of your ICU patients will be on mechanical ventilators. Most of those are from COVID-19 symptoms, not elective surgeries. They have symptoms severe enough to put them onto mechanical respirators.  
It's that 90% peak that the shutdowns are trying to make as short as possible - and remember that the 90% peak may hide excess deaths. If you've run out of mechanical respirators, that's not good for any new cases that need them.

A benefit of more widespread testing has been early detection. This means that, while infected numbers are rising very quickly, and hospital admissions for acute symptoms are on the rise too, the proportion of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 needing ventilators is decreasing. This is a good thing.

I wasn't really asking about the UK...I was just curious why the death 'rate' in the US is a decreasing slope if the 'cases and hospitalizations' are 'spiking'?

Early detection & treatment is the answer. More are being treated before they might require ICU level treatment and ventilators. This is why there is still a need to flatten the curve so that acute cases (not all infections) stay within the capabilities of healthcare resources.

This is where Brad is technically correct--no matter what, some will die of COVID-19 (and yes, all will eventually die of something)--but it is also where Brad is a dick for suggesting that efforts should not be taken to minimize that number by preventing unnecessary deaths from COVID-19.

[GeekyBugle]

Welp just gonna leave this here. https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

[spon]

I wasn't really asking about the UK...I was just curious why the death 'rate' in the US is a decreasing slope if the 'cases and hospitalizations' are 'spiking'?

Assuming the virus is the same in the US as the UK, the reasoning is sound. I believe the death rate going down is because you are detecting a lot more of the mild/asymptomatic cases that were being missed because testing was less widespread. Which might be a glimmer of hope for us - if the virus is actually a lot more widespread than we believe (i.e. almost all cases are asymptomatic), we might be able to get to a situation of herd immunity much quicker and concentrate on helping the vulnerable whilst reopening the economy for everyone else.

Unfortunately, that doesn't look like it's the case, and even if it were we don't have any guarantee that our immunity lasts long enough to help.

[Brad]

You asked if there has ever been a pandemic where well people are told to stay home. I gave some information about social distancing efforts in history. Do you not believe me about the history? Or do you believe that these restrictions did happen in history, but you just don't care about the answer?

I believe you're conflating a specific example with an overarching, national campaign to keep people home. Or do you want to show me evidence the entirety of the US was locked down in the past?

That's ok Brad, I'd love to live in your world where we haven't had all those excess deaths who just happen to test positive for Coronavirus (those who get tested, anyway).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending19june2020

Hope you don't have any aging relatives that you'll be coming into close contact with. They're the ones you are putting in danger. Stay safe.

The old "what about grandma" argument. Yeah well, fuck grandma. She needs to stay home and avoid getting sent to a nursing home with old people who tested positive. What's that, you say? We're sending sick people to nursing homes and deaths are spiking?

GTFO with this fear mongering bullshit.

[Spinachcat]

GTFO with this fear mongering bullshit.

Fear mongering bullshit is all they have left.

The scamdemic looks dumber everyday. The death rate is a joke, the victims are almost entirely people with one foot in the grave, and less and less people are buying the "oh noes cases be rising" when its obviously from the frantic pace of testing (to max out healthcare dollars).

We're nearly at the tipping point of even the densest people figuring out the scam. The goalposts keep moving from "flatten the curve" to "stop the spread" to "riots don't spread KungFlu" to our current "wear a face diaper to protect others!" Who knows what next week's CoronaChan lie might be?

[yancy]

The goalposts keep moving from "flatten the curve" to "stop the spread" to "riots don't spread KungFlu" to our current "wear a face diaper to protect others!" Who knows what next week's CoronaChan lie might be?

That last bullshit was mandated here a week or two ago, by our dipshit mayor, because this time the governor didn't have the will to fight

So far I've grudgingly put a handkerchief on my face when I'm yelled at (which happens in about of half of businesses here), but I'm thinking I'll buy some kinda pro-Trump 'covid mask' so every time someone insists I wear a mask, their happy face over forcing me to express support for Antifa and BLM turns into a frowny face over forcing me to express support for killing the children of unauthorized citizens, or whatever the hell it is Trump is guilty of today.

I've kind of wondered lately, if masks are such a goddamn important and effective public health measure that it's necessary to pass laws mandating wearing them, why it is there aren't obvious signs of them being handed out like sanitary IV drug use kits and meth smoking packages are, not even to low income individuals. Because I've seen little to no (read:no) evidence of any such initiative, and neither has anyone I've spoken to, including friends living in places like, oh, I don't know, Brooklyn.

[Abraxus]

I don't see the abject cowardly fear about wearing a mask. If it helps with keeping COV-19 figures down then why not wear a mask.

Problem like my neck and the woods and yours is that no one even really attempted any basic quarantine procedures. No social distancing and essentially hugging, kissing and shaking hands at every opportunity at every event. With no mandates in place beyond expecting people to do the right thing. Except unless forced to do so people are not going to do the right thing no matter what is a stake. If officials in Canada and the US had been more strict we would have probably been less impacted by the virus.

Everyone thinks they are immortal and immune to viruses up until they catch them and officials instead of doing the right thing worry about votes and hurting voters feelings and when both do something it's either too late or they are forced to do so. I am surprised that they are not giving out free masks at the very least across the USA. Or making it cheaper to buy them. At least for the moment you all lucked out on fines as the starting fee could go as high as 1000$ with 546$ added in before they relaxed quarantine procedures .

At the same time they should do what we do here when it comes to does not wanting to do any basic quarantine procedures or who refuse to take it seriously when visiting a dentist or someone similar. No mask and don't believe in the virus fine, sign this form that say we are not responsible for you getting the virus and you acknowledge any and all risks while not making us liable for anything. No you won't sign the form or wear a mask go see another service provider bye bye. What you think your going to go to the dentist with no protection and get sick then sue yeah good luck with that.

[HappyDaze]

I don't see the abject cowardly fear about wearing a mask. If it helps with keeping COV-19 figures down then why not wear a mask.

Problem like my neck and the woods and yours is that no one even really attempted any basic quarantine procedures. No social distancing and essentially hugging, kissing and shaking hands at every opportunity at every event. With no mandates in place beyond expecting people to do the right thing. Except unless forced to do so people are not going to do the right thing no matter what is a stake. If officials in Canada and the US had been more strict we would have probably been less impacted by the virus.

Everyone thinks they are immortal and immune to viruses up until they catch them and officials instead of doing the right thing worry about votes and hurting voters feelings and when both do something it's either too late or they are forced to do so. I am surprised that they are not giving out free masks at the very least across the USA. Or making it cheaper to buy them. At least for the moment you all lucked out on fines as the starting fee could go as high as 1000$ with 546$ added in before they relaxed quarantine procedures .

At the same time they should do what we do here when it comes to does not wanting to do any basic quarantine procedures or who refuse to take it seriously when visiting a dentist or someone similar. No mask and don't believe in the virus fine, sign this form that say we are not responsible for you getting the virus and you acknowledge any and all risks while not making us liable for anything. No you won't sign the form or wear a mask go see another service provider bye bye. What you think your going to go to the dentist with no protection and get sick then sue yeah good luck with that.

Slight clarification: the mask a person wears is not for their own protection; it is to protect others from them. When I wear a mask it is to keep anything I exhale from traveling as far as it would if I was barefaced--it doesn't stop things as small as a virus, but it does impede their spread by muffling the force of exhalation. These masks cut down on transmission so long as everyone is wearing them (i.e., my protection comes from others wearing their masks). In contrast, a respirator (which may look like a mask but works differently) and faceshields/goggles are intended to protect the one wearing them.

[Shasarak]

Slight clarification: the mask a person wears is not for their own protection; it is to protect others from them. When I wear a mask it is to keep anything I exhale from traveling as far as it would if I was barefaced--it doesn't stop things as small as a virus, but it does impede their spread by muffling the force of exhalation. These masks cut down on transmission so long as everyone is wearing them (i.e., my protection comes from others wearing their masks). In contrast, a respirator (which may look like a mask but works differently) and faceshields/goggles are intended to protect the one wearing them.

A mask must have some protective effect, otherwise all of those doctors and nurses wearing masks are either trying to protect their patients from being infected by the nurse or providing the nurse with a placebo so they dont think too much about how their patients are infecting them.

[HappyDaze]

A mask must have some protective effect, otherwise all of those doctors and nurses wearing masks are either trying to protect their patients from being infected by the nurse or providing the nurse with a placebo so they dont think too much about how their patients are infecting them.

When wearing masks (not respirators) it really is intended to protect the patient from the HCP (this is the function of surgical/procedural masks). Of course, patients are also required to wear masks within healthcare facilities too, and this is intended to protect the HCPs and other patients too. In cases where there is a known COVID-19 positive patient, HCPs will be wearing respirators and protective eyewear (this is also done with all patients undergoing aerosol-generating procedures).

[KingCheops]

Free abortions are essential but motherfucker you better pony up $1 to buy a fucking face mask!