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Author Topic: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.  (Read 8401 times)

Pat

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #555 on: September 09, 2020, 06:52:36 AM »
That’s basically where a lot of this country is at; governors ignoring their state constitutions to make illegal edicts that are wrecking people’s lives.
No, in a lot of states it's perfectly legal. Most state constitutions place few limits on the powers of the legislative branch, and many of those have granted the governor sweeping emergency powers. This is less about states willfully violating their own laws, and more about how few limits are in place.

My favorite bit of insanity... in that it proves just how utterly stupid the decision-making is... happened when I was picking up lunch for my dad at Taco Bell. The management decided they wanted to reduce contact even further so they have you put your payment in a cup instead of just handing it to the gloved worker. Then the worker has to pull the payment out and either swipe the card or make change WITH THEIR HANDS, put it back in the cup and give it back to you.
They started doing that at McDonald's, around here. I agree, it's completely idiotic. A germ-infested intermediary is worse than no intermediary at all.

Another example is the local Walmart, which recently closed all but one of their entrances, and put security between the entrance and exit doors, so they're within arm's reach of people going in and out. So instead of allowing people to space out and keep their distance, they're forcing everyone into a channel where they are required to pass close by each other. This isn't because the Walmart has little traffic or is understaffed; it's one of the busiest I've ever seen, with blue vests everywhere. And that doesn't even get into the staff counting people coming or going, or the flow once you're inside the store, which are equally terrible.

The lines and counters were stupid back when all non-essential businesses were closed, but reimplementing an even stupider solution now just seems absurd.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #556 on: September 09, 2020, 08:12:11 AM »
Try: fuck off.

You shouldn't have any problems referencing appropriate court cases and precedents, then.

You want evidence for the assertion that telling the court to fuck off leads to a bad result for you?

I believe you know exactly what I'm talking about and are pretending to be mentally disabled.


English tort law may be accepted as 'in the interests of the law' but it is not binding law. In fact, misuse of English defamation rules actually led to a law being passed in the U.S. which flat out states 'if you want to enforce a defamation verdict here, it must meet OUR requirements'.


In other words, English tort law is nice but it has no legal standing beyond background and (normally) good and fair application. Blackstone's Commentaries, for example, is not binding law, but it's excellent advice.

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #557 on: September 09, 2020, 11:48:20 AM »
No, in a lot of states it's perfectly legal. Most state constitutions place few limits on the powers of the legislative branch, and many of those have granted the governor sweeping emergency powers. This is less about states willfully violating their own laws, and more about how few limits are in place.
Not legal in Illinois except for 30 days. Gee, I think they might have exceeded 30 days by now. But the powers that be don't care about legality in Illinois. (same with marijuana, illegal immigrants, etc).


https://www.illinoispolicy.org/state-legal-memo-illinois-governor-needs-lawmakers-approval-before-extending-emergency-powers/
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 11:53:38 AM by Hawkwing7423 »

Tanin Wulf

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #558 on: September 09, 2020, 09:47:37 PM »
Gee,  if only there weren't other provisions of the Illinois Code (like Section 5-45 of the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act) and Illinois Administrative Code the Governor could rely on. And if ONLY those rules didn't specify a 150 day limit instead of a 30 day limit. AND IF ONLY THOSE RULES didn't further exempt emergency rules made for Title 77.

Damn, it's a shame that Governors in  most states don't have multiple laws with which they could exercise emergency authority and that they only have 1 way to do it. It's really a shame. A shame that there's no common law understandings of emergency powers either that supplement such provisions where the law does not specifically override them.


Maybe if you were this passionate about things outside of an internet message board, you could make a difference and get people elected who will treat the law the way you think it works. (If you think governors don't have broad, sweeping powers during times of emergency, you're wrong. If you think legislatures have sufficiently locked these down, you're wrong. If you think legislatures probably should claw some of that power back away from the executive, well then you and I agree.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 09:50:36 PM by Tanin Wulf »

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #559 on: September 09, 2020, 11:13:35 PM »
Gee,  if only there weren't other provisions of the Illinois Code (like Section 5-45 of the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act) and Illinois Administrative Code the Governor could rely on. And if ONLY those rules didn't specify a 150 day limit instead of a 30 day limit. AND IF ONLY THOSE RULES didn't further exempt emergency rules made for Title 77.

Damn, it's a shame that Governors in  most states don't have multiple laws with which they could exercise emergency authority and that they only have 1 way to do it. It's really a shame. A shame that there's no common law understandings of emergency powers either that supplement such provisions where the law does not specifically override them.

Maybe if you were this passionate about things outside of an internet message board, you could make a difference and get people elected who will treat the law the way you think it works. (If you think governors don't have broad, sweeping powers during times of emergency, you're wrong. If you think legislatures have sufficiently locked these down, you're wrong. If you think legislatures probably should claw some of that power back away from the executive, well then you and I agree.)
It's been over 150 days so your point on that is completely irrelevant. I doubt you are a lawyer any more than I am. In a Democrat supermajority state, the Democrats don't even have to go to court. They do what they like in many cases. And this "emergency" is a scam and opens the doors for many other so-called "emergencies." Maybe we can have one every flu season or maybe only in Presidential election years.

I left Illinois in 2018 when it was clear that we would have a terrible Governor no matter what. However, I still work in Illinois and pay taxes in Illinois. Taxation without representation and all that. Illinois is going down the drain no matter what happens. They will never touch their precious pensions which are the main cause of the fiscal insolvency.  Either they will pass the amendment to the state constitution to start raising the taxes and drive all the millionaires (and eventually the middle class) out or they can explore bankruptcy in the future. If they pass the amendment, it will just accelerate the emigration from Illinois which is already happening.

And as for me wasting my time posting on an Internet forum, you can't tell me how to use my own time. Put me on ignore or screw off.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 11:23:12 PM by Hawkwing7423 »

Tanin Wulf

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #560 on: September 09, 2020, 11:50:32 PM »
You didn't look at the date that rule was published did you? Nor did you notice the exception I already pointed out.
EDIT: Also, you may want to check your reading comprehension. I didn't tell you what to do with your time.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 11:57:37 PM by Tanin Wulf »

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #561 on: September 10, 2020, 12:14:14 AM »
You didn't look at the date that rule was published did you? Nor did you notice the exception I already pointed out.
EDIT: Also, you may want to check your reading comprehension. I didn't tell you what to do with your time.
Oh I read it. It was snarky and arrogant, like I'm supposed to start the political movement that topples the Illinois Democratic machine instead of bitching on an Internet forum...


I voted in every election since I was 18. When I realized after living in IL for 43 years that my vote was meaningless, I left. I still have a lot of friends and family there and are sorry to see them shredding their economy even further. Pritzker has even used the mandates as political punishment to counties which are more red and allowed the other counties to not have the same mandate under the same conditions because they are more blue.


Again, I can't say I understand the "exception you pointed out" which is just a sentence. Your link leads to pages of legalese. The media doesn't explain to the layperson why his mandates are legal or not, they assume they are legal because they are all Democrat in Illinois. But if you're trying to tell me the people that ignore federal immigration law and federal marijuana law really care about the legality of these mandates I can only shake my head.

Tanin Wulf

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #562 on: September 10, 2020, 08:58:00 AM »
Oh I read it.
Reading does not equal comprehension.
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It was snarky and arrogant. . .
True.

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. . . like I'm supposed to start the political movement that topples the Illinois Democratic machine instead of bitching on an Internet forum...
Stranger things have happened, but if that's what you took from it then maybe you need to examine why YOU feel that way. Because that's not what I wrote.


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I voted in every election since I was 18. When I realized after living in IL for 43 years that my vote was meaningless, I left.
So you gave up instead of fighting. It happens, and it's OK. Not everyone is born to be a fighter.

Quote
Again, I can't say I understand the "exception you pointed out" which is just a sentence. Your link leads to pages of legalese.
Ahhh! Now we're getting somewhere. If you had started with a statement that you don't understand, I'd have been happy to help you understand.

Quote
But if you're trying to tell me the people that ignore federal immigration law and federal marijuana law really care about the legality of these mandates I can only shake my head.
Not at all. I'm telling you that before you get all huffy about something you don't understand, maybe you should do the Conservative thing: take a step back and figure out what actually happened, what it actually means, and how it impacts you, society, and liberty.
So let me try to help you as to what all that 'legalese' (it really wasn't) is trying to say:

First: Title 77 of the Illinois Administrative Code is the section of the Admin Code that governs Public Health. The Illinois Administrative Code is all the implementing rules that the different agencies must follow, so since Title 77 is over Public Health, it's what everyone looks to for health related matters.


Second: In the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act, the Legislature gave the Executive the ability to create emergency rules, in addition to the normally slow, methodical, and plodding rulemaking procedures. These emergency rules stipulate that you can put a rule in place for 150 days, but you cannot put the same rule in place more than once in a 24-month period. However, you can work through the normal rulemaking process while the emergency rule is in effect.


Third: In order to create an emergency rule, there must BE an emergency, declared by the Governor. So we look to the Illinois Emergency Management Act (IEMA). IEMA states that the governor can declare an emergency for an open-ended list of reasons (that is, it's not an exhaustive list). Among them is epidemic. If he declares an emergency, then he has certain emergency powers for 30 days. After which, THOSE POWERS CEASE, BUT THE EMERGENCY IS STILL VALID. This is important.


Fourth: Taken together, this means that the governor can declare an emergency, have 30 days of emergency powers, then create a rule that lasts for 150 days. This gives you a total of 180 days to work with.


Lastly: If you look at the same part of the Illinois Administrative Procedures Act that gives emergency rulemaking authority, you will see that it exempts matters of public health (that is, Title 77). Because of the nature of those emergencies, the executive agencies can introduce multiple emergency rules until either a final rule is completed in accordance with the Act, the Governor ends the emergency, or the Legislature declares the emergency is ended (which is not in the current law, I'm just pointing out that they actually could do this at any time).


NOW: I will now pivot over to why that Illinois Policy link you gave doesn't say what you think it says (or what they want you to think it says). What Illinois Policy Center wants you to think it says is that this whole thing is horribly illegal. Here's what it actually says:


(1) There's an informal opinion drafted in 2001 that says the Governor can't do this. Several of these laws have been amended since 2001, including to plug the issues the 2001 AG brought up.  These were all minor technical administrative fixes that didn't garner any big hubbub at the time because nobody cares about the "little" details. (Oh wait, they're not so little after all, are they?)


(2) Darren Bailey petitioned the court to grant an injunction against the Governor's order. The court granted it. For him only. Bailey then realized he pleaded wrong and asked to file an amended lawsuit, because he wanted EVERYONE exempted, not just him. The Appeals Court said, "No." (Which is not in the story you linked, that's a more recent development in late July, because it takes time to work through the courts.) Before that no, however, the Governor asked the Supreme Court to intervene, as is his right to ask, and the Supreme Court said, "No." Which means it stays with the appellate court (who then issued their ruling of "no" to Bailey).


So let me give you the abridged version that doesn't come through clearly to people who aren't used to reading court cases (which is most of us; once you learn that skill, it really, really changes how you view the news):


BAILEY: This rule fucking sucks and there's a hurdle he hasn't met yet here.


DISTRICT COURT: Ok... you're technically correct in this area, but there are a dozen other areas you failed to cite so we'll grant you your order just to get you the fuck out of our court. It applies only to you.


BAILEY: Wait wait! That's not what I meant! I wanted everyone exempted! Here, here! I found this Memo that backs me up! Appeals Court, let me go back to the District and try again! Please vacate the order so I can start over!


GOVERNOR: Supreme Court, can we just fucking end this buffoonery now since we know this will get to you eventually?


SUPREME COURT: Oh fuck no. Ya'll finish having your tantrum down there. Don't make this my problem.


APPEALS COURT: Bailey? Yeah, fucking no. You don't get 2 bites at the apple. If that's what you wanted to plead, you should have fucking done it the first time around. Either you or your lawyer is an idiot.


BAILEY: Fine! I'm appealing to the Supreme Court!


SUPREME COURT: Are we going to put him on the docket? Uh... sure, I guess. But make him go through the normal proceedings, just like we told the governor. So we'll see you in... I dunno... January, maybe? Expect a ruling by next July. (Unless, of course, there's a final rule in place by then in which case the whole thing is moot and we don't rule on hypotheticals so... muwahahahaahahahaaha!)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 09:02:49 AM by Tanin Wulf »

Hawkwing7423

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #563 on: September 10, 2020, 09:24:10 AM »
Even 180 days will be up soon. I would be shocked if they will just stop all the mandate nonsense then, including rules from back in March.


Also "gave up" yeah I gave up on Illinois. It's been on a downward trend for 70 years or more. I went to Indiana where some people still believe in America.


Nice slight on me for "not fighting" LOL. Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory is a thing.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 09:31:23 AM by Hawkwing7423 »

Tanin Wulf

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #564 on: September 10, 2020, 09:31:36 AM »
Glad to see a fellow Hoosier on the board.

Again: the 150 day rule just means they have to put a new one in place for Public Health. For any other rule, they couldn't do it twice in a 24-month period. For Public Health, they're exempted from that requirement and can just keep putting it in place until the emergency is ended.

Kiero

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #565 on: September 10, 2020, 11:06:11 AM »
An argument which has been attempted many a time in court, especially by that class of men who choose to represent themselves - typically with an ill result.
You do realise that torts (with the exception of fraud) have only civil remedies available, right?
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The Spaniard

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #566 on: September 10, 2020, 11:16:31 AM »
Glad to see a fellow Hoosier on the board.



Does an IU grad count?

Tanin Wulf

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #567 on: September 10, 2020, 11:19:36 AM »
I'll allow it! (You know... for what authority I have... i.e., none.  8) )
Besides, how could I hate IU? My upper level degree is from there (undergrad in Wisconsin at a private school).

The Spaniard

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #568 on: September 10, 2020, 11:28:34 AM »
Very cool.  Wisconsin has some good private schools.

EOTB

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Re: Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.
« Reply #569 on: September 17, 2020, 04:47:08 PM »
Nashville city government doesn’t want to confirm good news (link to Nashville local news network affiliate report)


https://t.co/HAEicSwYzc








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