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Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.

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Pat:

--- Quote from: Mistwell on January 22, 2022, 09:50:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Pat on January 22, 2022, 08:09:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Mistwell on January 22, 2022, 07:18:14 PM ---I am happy to read your links but before I do, because you've read them yourself, which of these is about how well a masks prevents you from receiving a virus, as opposed to measuring how well it reduces the risk of you transmitting a virus to others? That has always been the distinction I've made over and over again, and always been the thing you gloss over. So let's have it - which of these addresses that issue?
--- End quote ---
I have read them, though it's been a while because this has been a long 15 days. Though I'm entertained by how you continue to make these subtle little insinuations. It's really despicable. You're like a mustache-twirling like popinjay.

But back to your point, to use that word very loosely. It's a false distinction, as always. How would you test that, without violating basic ethical standards?
--- End quote ---

Oh I don't know, TEST THE MASKS AGAINST A SPRAY BOTTLE? OR ANYTHING ELSE PROJECTING DROPLETS? For fucks sake, didn't you watch any of the mask demos I and others posted before? THEY TEST MASKS. You know, using scientific equipment, like you do when you certify safety equipment! Fuck dude, how did you not catch up to that basic level of knowledge two years ago?

Some studies measure how well masks prevent the spread from someone who is infected, others test if masks prevent you from receiving a virus, and some test for both. So which of the studies you cited test to see if masks help reduce the spread away from someone infected? If your answer is you don't know, just fucking say that instead of all this bullshit. Because if a study only tests if it's effective for preventing you receiving a virus, and isn't even looking to see if it reduces the risk you spread a virus, it's a not responsive to the question of "do masks help?"


--- Quote ---At least I haven't had to void a check because I wrote 2021 instead of 2022. Happens to everyone. But of course you try to spin it into some grand act of malfeasance, you wicked little popinjay, because it's all you've got.

--- End quote ---

Naw man you dug this hole now you eat the shit you found at the bottom. Nobody made you make a point of the date of the article. You chose to do that and so when it turns out you made a bad choice you don't get to then play the victim like I am picking on you for you choosing to bash me in what was a fuckup of your own. Just be responsible and say whoops sorry about that, like a mature fucking adult instead of the child you continue to behave like.

--- End quote ---
Go look up the hamster study.

Then come back and apologize.

(Not that you ever will, you little baby.)

Pat:

--- Quote from: dkabq on January 22, 2022, 10:26:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: Mistwell on January 22, 2022, 09:50:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Pat on January 22, 2022, 08:09:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Mistwell on January 22, 2022, 07:18:14 PM ---I am happy to read your links but before I do, because you've read them yourself, which of these is about how well a masks prevents you from receiving a virus, as opposed to measuring how well it reduces the risk of you transmitting a virus to others? That has always been the distinction I've made over and over again, and always been the thing you gloss over. So let's have it - which of these addresses that issue?
--- End quote ---
I have read them, though it's been a while because this has been a long 15 days. Though I'm entertained by how you continue to make these subtle little insinuations. It's really despicable. You're like a mustache-twirling like popinjay.

But back to your point, to use that word very loosely. It's a false distinction, as always. How would you test that, without violating basic ethical standards?
--- End quote ---

Oh I don't know, TEST THE MASKS AGAINST A SPRAY BOTTLE? OR ANYTHING ELSE PROJECTING DROPLETS? For fucks sake, didn't you watch any of the mask demos I and others posted before? THEY TEST MASKS. You know, using scientific equipment, like you do when you certify safety equipment! Fuck dude, how did you not catch up to that basic level of knowledge two years ago?

Some studies measure how well masks prevent the spread from someone who is infected, others test if masks prevent you from receiving a virus, and some test for both. So which of the studies you cited test to see if masks help reduce the spread away from someone infected? If your answer is you don't know, just fucking say that instead of all this bullshit. Because if a study only tests if it's effective for preventing you receiving a virus, and isn't even looking to see if it reduces the risk you spread a virus, it's a not responsive to the question of "do masks help?"


--- Quote ---At least I haven't had to void a check because I wrote 2021 instead of 2022. Happens to everyone. But of course you try to spin it into some grand act of malfeasance, you wicked little popinjay, because it's all you've got.

--- End quote ---

Naw man you dug this hole now you eat the shit you found at the bottom. Nobody made you make a point of the date of the article. You chose to do that and so when it turns out you made a bad choice you don't get to then play the victim like I am picking on you for you choosing to bash me in what was a fuckup of your own. Just be responsible and say whoops sorry about that, like a mature fucking adult instead of the child you continue to behave like.

--- End quote ---

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/personal-protective-equipment-infection-control/n95-respirators-surgical-masks-face-masks-and-barrier-face-coverings#s2
"If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose. Surgical masks may also help reduce exposure of your saliva and respiratory secretions to others."

Yep, yep. Absolutely. Exactly what surgical masks are designed to do. Of course, your hand, a tissue, or a vampire cough likely does just as well, but given that a surgeon notionally has their hands full, a mask makes sense. However...

"While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, it does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face."

So the surgical mask keeps the surgeon from coughing, sneezing, or spitting on you, it isn't going to protect you from the "very small particles in the air", hence the surgeon (wearing a surgical mask) could give you the flu.

And yes, I have seen any number of videos or CFD simulations of masks. And yes, droplets are caught and flow is diverted. All well and good, if, for you, that scenario has a probability not approaching zero. That is why health-care workers wear surgical masks. But as for others, or at least for me, I cannot remember a time when someone sneezed or coughed in my face. I have met juicy talkers in my time, but I have an American sensibility when I comes to personal space so I have never been in the splash zone -- YMMV. I am going to get covid one of there ways:

(1): Long-term exposure in an enclosed space. A mask isn't going to do anything to reduce the aerosol (viral) source term from others into the space or the viral concentration I am exposed to.

(2): Close proximity and/or kissing wife. Or as I like to call it, "the best way to get covid".  :)

(3): I go lick the keyboard and mouse of the guy in the cubicle catty-cornered from mine that came down with covid last week.

That said, perhaps your life looks more like a health care environment (up close and personal with people). In which case I can see why you would consider wearing a mask and asking those getting up close to you to also wear one. So knock yourself out, maybe even wear two, St. Fauci style. But stop stepping on my dick about it.

--- End quote ---
Mistwell didn't even catch my reference to one of the first studies of masks after covid-19 came out, where masks in front of hamster cages were used to measure how many were affected when the infected cage was covered a mask, when the cage downwind was covered by a mask, and when both were. This is not somebody with any real knowledge about the subject, or any desire to learn. Concepts like highly artificial lab trials not translating into real world results, and that's why real world studies of the effectiveness of mask are more important than theoretical models; or everything we now know about aerosolization and how the vast majority of the particles pass through masks as if they weren't even there; just go swoosh.

3catcircus:

--- Quote from: dkabq on January 22, 2022, 10:26:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: Mistwell on January 22, 2022, 09:50:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Pat on January 22, 2022, 08:09:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: Mistwell on January 22, 2022, 07:18:14 PM ---I am happy to read your links but before I do, because you've read them yourself, which of these is about how well a masks prevents you from receiving a virus, as opposed to measuring how well it reduces the risk of you transmitting a virus to others? That has always been the distinction I've made over and over again, and always been the thing you gloss over. So let's have it - which of these addresses that issue?
--- End quote ---
I have read them, though it's been a while because this has been a long 15 days. Though I'm entertained by how you continue to make these subtle little insinuations. It's really despicable. You're like a mustache-twirling like popinjay.

But back to your point, to use that word very loosely. It's a false distinction, as always. How would you test that, without violating basic ethical standards?
--- End quote ---

Oh I don't know, TEST THE MASKS AGAINST A SPRAY BOTTLE? OR ANYTHING ELSE PROJECTING DROPLETS? For fucks sake, didn't you watch any of the mask demos I and others posted before? THEY TEST MASKS. You know, using scientific equipment, like you do when you certify safety equipment! Fuck dude, how did you not catch up to that basic level of knowledge two years ago?

Some studies measure how well masks prevent the spread from someone who is infected, others test if masks prevent you from receiving a virus, and some test for both. So which of the studies you cited test to see if masks help reduce the spread away from someone infected? If your answer is you don't know, just fucking say that instead of all this bullshit. Because if a study only tests if it's effective for preventing you receiving a virus, and isn't even looking to see if it reduces the risk you spread a virus, it's a not responsive to the question of "do masks help?"


--- Quote ---At least I haven't had to void a check because I wrote 2021 instead of 2022. Happens to everyone. But of course you try to spin it into some grand act of malfeasance, you wicked little popinjay, because it's all you've got.

--- End quote ---

Naw man you dug this hole now you eat the shit you found at the bottom. Nobody made you make a point of the date of the article. You chose to do that and so when it turns out you made a bad choice you don't get to then play the victim like I am picking on you for you choosing to bash me in what was a fuckup of your own. Just be responsible and say whoops sorry about that, like a mature fucking adult instead of the child you continue to behave like.

--- End quote ---

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/personal-protective-equipment-infection-control/n95-respirators-surgical-masks-face-masks-and-barrier-face-coverings#s2
"If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose. Surgical masks may also help reduce exposure of your saliva and respiratory secretions to others."

Yep, yep. Absolutely. Exactly what surgical masks are designed to do. Of course, your hand, a tissue, or a vampire cough likely does just as well, but given that a surgeon notionally has their hands full, a mask makes sense. However...

"While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, it does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face."

So the surgical mask keeps the surgeon from coughing, sneezing, or spitting on you, it isn't going to protect you from the "very small particles in the air", hence the surgeon (wearing a surgical mask) could give you the flu.

And yes, I have seen any number of videos or CFD simulations of masks. And yes, droplets are caught and flow is diverted. All well and good, if, for you, that scenario has a probability not approaching zero. That is why health-care workers wear surgical masks. But as for others, or at least for me, I cannot remember a time when someone sneezed or coughed in my face. I have met juicy talkers in my time, but I have an American sensibility when I comes to personal space so I have never been in the splash zone -- YMMV. I am going to get covid one of there ways:

(1): Long-term exposure in an enclosed space. A mask isn't going to do anything to reduce the aerosol (viral) source term from others into the space or the viral concentration I am exposed to.

(2): Close proximity and/or kissing wife. Or as I like to call it, "the best way to get covid".  :)

(3): I go lick the keyboard and mouse of the guy in the cubicle catty-cornered from mine that came down with covid last week.

That said, perhaps your life looks more like a health care environment (up close and personal with people). In which case I can see why you would consider wearing a mask and asking those getting up close to you to also wear one. So knock yourself out, maybe even wear two, St. Fauci style. But stop stepping on my dick about it.

--- End quote ---

C'mon, man...  Everyone knows that lawyers are qualified to render judgement on science and engineering and medicine.  The rest of us are uneducated hacks just reading off the list of ingredients in the quantum cookbook...

Kiero:
I'm old enough to remember when the notion that the vaccine passport would be used as the stepping stone to digital ID was a "conspiracy theory": https://twitter.com/SikhForTruth/status/1484849526133374976

See also:



I mean no one ever predicted they'd be abolishing cash next (see Central Bank Digital Currencies)...

Kiero:
The very first lockdown was in Wuhan on 23rd January 2020. Why would they be doing that unless the infection had been raging for months without any of the previous measures doing anything? I'd note they didn't suspend travel out of Wuhan in any of the preceding time.

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