Covid, the "lockdowns" etc.

[dkabq]

On a serious note though, I don't think vaccines fuck all, but what worked in the beginning doesn't look like it's working as good against the delta, lambda, Mu variants.
The solution for now is wait and see, imo.

They're not vaccines, they don't provide immunity.

I feel they're more like a steroid treatment than a vaccine. The data suggests only the unvaccinated are getting deadly sick. If they don't stop you from catching covid, at least they'll boost your defenses.

The vaccine acts like armor. It reduces the chances of a blow landing soundly and softens some of the blows, but no armor provides total immunity from injury.

Perhaps, but an armor that fades quickly (~1 year) and is quickly obsolete. (~1). And there is a small possibility that the armor will fuck you up or kill you.

On that last point, I would suspicion that more peoples' hesitancy would be overcome if the government took on the lability of the vaccine. If I have to take the vaccine to protect others, then those "others" should compensate me and/or my estate if the vaccine makes me sick, disabled, or kills me.

[Kiero]

So because ONE hospital provided data, you believe that accounts for the rest of the country or world. Just say you're scared of the needle.

Only one, because all detailed data in this country has to be requested on a hospital-by-hospital basis. Ishowed one before from a Birmingham trust, which showed 98% of all covid deaths were actually from underlying conditions.

I don't give a toss about needles, you imbecile, it's what's in the vial that bothers me.

Perhaps, but an armor that fades quickly (~1 year) and is quickly obsolete. (~1). And there is a small possibility that the armor will fuck you up or kill you.

On that last point, I would suspicion that more peoples' hesitancy would be overcome if the government took on the lability of the vaccine. If I have to take the vaccine to protect others, then those "others" should compensate me and/or my estate if the vaccine makes me sick, disabled, or kills me.

They can remove the liability and it will make no difference to me. I'm not "hesitant", I am completely uninterested. I don't need a therapeutic treatment (that doesn't even work) for the common cold.

[Mistwell]

  Doctors wear masks so they do not sneeze or blow spit in your open wounds during surgery.   It has jack shit to do with viruses, it is for bacterial infections from getting a wound sneezed into or spit flying into, for which masks are great.  For the last time, if you are worried about who wears a mask, wear a respirator or a gas mask when you go out, then YOU ARE protected from viruses.

I love how you just make shit up and assume nobody will call you on it. Directly from the Surgical Theater rules from the CDC face mask guidelines (and this is well before Covid-19), "Surgical face masks are worn by theatre staff to protect the surgical site from airborne contamination and the wearer from bodily fluid splash." The guidelines list both protection from splash from patient, and protection of patient from contamination from the surgeons, for a host of things including specifically viruses.

And these are not "respirator" masks they are surgical masks.

So how about you stop just making shit up about things so easily checked by others and do at least a quick Google search before you spout off again you lazy doof.

[Mistwell]

On a serious note though, I don't think vaccines fuck all, but what worked in the beginning doesn't look like it's working as good against the delta, lambda, Mu variants.
The solution for now is wait and see, imo.

They're not vaccines, they don't provide immunity.

Once again I present you with evidence the small pox vaccine does not convey 100% immunity just like this vaccine, and once again you just pretend like that never happened and repeat yourself as if this wasn't already debunked right here multiple times directly to you.

[Mistwell]

Ah yes, the left highlighting the suffering of children to make an asinine point. Because after all we think a doctor might sniff a broken bone during surgery and break his own bone.

I'll tell you what. When I get a normal vaccine, one where they inoculate with a little bit of the virus so I can develop immunity, I will do that. I am not getting gene therapy. Also, smallpox killed children. It also disfigured the survivors. Coronavirus does not.

So when are you getting the Johnson and Johnson vax for Covid-19?

The other two are not "gene therapy" by the way and that's a truly moronic take. But regardless, your objection doesn't apply to the J&J vax anyway.

Covid-19 is killing some kids (and adults) and they're now finding 1 in 3 who get Covid still suffer from at least one symptom months later. Long Covid is real.

[oggsmash]

  Doctors wear masks so they do not sneeze or blow spit in your open wounds during surgery.   It has jack shit to do with viruses, it is for bacterial infections from getting a wound sneezed into or spit flying into, for which masks are great.  For the last time, if you are worried about who wears a mask, wear a respirator or a gas mask when you go out, then YOU ARE protected from viruses.

I love how you just make shit up and assume nobody will call you on it. Directly from the Surgical Theater rules from the CDC face mask guidelines (and this is well before Covid-19), "Surgical face masks are worn by theatre staff to protect the surgical site from airborne contamination and the wearer from bodily fluid splash." The guidelines list both protection from splash from patient, and protection of patient from contamination from the surgeons, for a host of things including specifically viruses.

And these are not "respirator" masks they are surgical masks.

So how about you stop just making shit up about things so easily checked by others and do at least a quick Google search before you spout off again you lazy doof.

  Dumbass...the droplets you cough or sneeze are full of contaminants, and bacteria and viruses.   Those masks are more for those contaminants going into a wound (from surgery) than into a patient's lungs during surgery.   YOUR OWN DAMN QUOTE SAYS THE SURGICAL SITE YOU GOOFBALL.   

[oggsmash]

 So, maybe as you seem concerned about lazy, try to get off your ass yourself.

[oggsmash]

   Regarding respirators, they are for people like Mistwell, who feels it is other people's concern to protect his safety with porous cloth.  Wear a respirator when you go out, and you will not be inhaling anyone's contaminants, even the tiny little ones that pass right through that porous mask.

[oggsmash]

  I probably also should have added the qualifier when I mentioned the mask to prevent spitting or sneezing into a wound, that was directly from the orthopedic surgeon who is going to be putting my torn pec back together, I could not help but ask at the MRI referral I met him for 2 weeks ago.

[Mistwell]

  Doctors wear masks so they do not sneeze or blow spit in your open wounds during surgery.   It has jack shit to do with viruses, it is for bacterial infections from getting a wound sneezed into or spit flying into, for which masks are great.  For the last time, if you are worried about who wears a mask, wear a respirator or a gas mask when you go out, then YOU ARE protected from viruses.

I love how you just make shit up and assume nobody will call you on it. Directly from the Surgical Theater rules from the CDC face mask guidelines (and this is well before Covid-19), "Surgical face masks are worn by theatre staff to protect the surgical site from airborne contamination and the wearer from bodily fluid splash." The guidelines list both protection from splash from patient, and protection of patient from contamination from the surgeons, for a host of things including specifically viruses.

And these are not "respirator" masks they are surgical masks.

So how about you stop just making shit up about things so easily checked by others and do at least a quick Google search before you spout off again you lazy doof.

  Dumbass...the droplets you cough or sneeze are full of contaminants, and bacteria and viruses.   Those masks are more for those contaminants going into a wound (from surgery) than into a patient's lungs during surgery.   YOUR OWN DAMN QUOTE SAYS THE SURGICAL SITE YOU GOOFBALL.   

Yes, and?

Whatever point you think you just made, you didn't.

[Mistwell]

   Regarding respirators, they are for people like Mistwell, who feels it is other people's concern to protect his safety with porous cloth.  Wear a respirator when you go out, and you will not be inhaling anyone's contaminants, even the tiny little ones that pass right through that porous mask.

It's to stop you from spread it to others.

How are you still this ignorant? I KNOW you've been told that, and shown studies about that, and read the recommendations focus on that. Why do you still persist in thinking masks are about protecting you from others as opposed to protecting others from you?

[dkabq]

   Regarding respirators, they are for people like Mistwell, who feels it is other people's concern to protect his safety with porous cloth.  Wear a respirator when you go out, and you will not be inhaling anyone's contaminants, even the tiny little ones that pass right through that porous mask.

It's to stop you from spread it to others.

How are you still this ignorant? I KNOW you've been told that, and shown studies about that, and read the recommendations focus on that. Why do you still persist in thinking masks are about protecting you from others as opposed to protecting others from you?

Begs the question of why the pre-covid CDC mask guidance for the flu was for the general public to not wear masks, as well as St. Fauci's statements correspondence and in his 60 Minutes interview.

[dkabq]

   Regarding respirators, they are for people like Mistwell, who feels it is other people's concern to protect his safety with porous cloth.  Wear a respirator when you go out, and you will not be inhaling anyone's contaminants, even the tiny little ones that pass right through that porous mask.

Unless the mask is air-tight (e.g., properly fitted, properly worn N-95 mask), a portion of the aerosols will bypass the filter material. The degree of bypass is dependent on the mask and bypass flow areas and their respective pressure drops. A surgical mask (not air-tight, with relatively large gaps and low pressure drops) will not filter small aerosols, as they will follow the flow streamlines through the bypass area. The larger aerosols with enough mass (inertia) to "break out" from flow streamlines and follow the flow through the filter material. Ironically, if the mask isn't air-tight, then then a mask with "tighter" filter material (i.e., with a higher pressure drop across it) will have higher bypass flow and hence more bypass release.

Something else to consider is that what makes an N-95 so effective is that its filter material is specifically designed and manufactured to use electrostatic potential to cause aerosols passing through it to deposit on it. Not something you are going to get from t-shirt or (to the best of my knowledge) surgical mask material. As an aside, I have a colleague who participated in experiments to sterilize N-95 masks with radiation. Turns out that the degree of radiation needed for sterilization also damages the filter material such that it loses it electrostatic potential.

[Mistwell]

   Regarding respirators, they are for people like Mistwell, who feels it is other people's concern to protect his safety with porous cloth.  Wear a respirator when you go out, and you will not be inhaling anyone's contaminants, even the tiny little ones that pass right through that porous mask.

It's to stop you from spread it to others.

How are you still this ignorant? I KNOW you've been told that, and shown studies about that, and read the recommendations focus on that. Why do you still persist in thinking masks are about protecting you from others as opposed to protecting others from you?

Begs the question of why the pre-covid CDC mask guidance for the flu was for the general public to not wear masks, as well as St. Fauci's statements correspondence and in his 60 Minutes interview.

Because it's not the flu? Because at the earlier time Fauci thought it spread like the flu only to find out later, like we all did, that it spread differently?

WE ALL COVERED THIS MONTHS AGO, INCLUDING YOU. Fuck, most of your "allies" here already acknowledged this. Is this how it's going to go, where we hack through a discussion only to later just repeat the same shit as if we hadn't discussed it and force the same discussion again and again even on things which eventually are agreed to at the time? Damn dude I think you're just trolling me at this point. Which OK, it's this particular sub-forum on this message board so no great sin, but damn...

[dkabq]

   Regarding respirators, they are for people like Mistwell, who feels it is other people's concern to protect his safety with porous cloth.  Wear a respirator when you go out, and you will not be inhaling anyone's contaminants, even the tiny little ones that pass right through that porous mask.

It's to stop you from spread it to others.

How are you still this ignorant? I KNOW you've been told that, and shown studies about that, and read the recommendations focus on that. Why do you still persist in thinking masks are about protecting you from others as opposed to protecting others from you?

Begs the question of why the pre-covid CDC mask guidance for the flu was for the general public to not wear masks, as well as St. Fauci's statements correspondence and in his 60 Minutes interview.

Because it's not the flu? Because at the earlier time Fauci thought it spread like the flu only to find out later, like we all did, that it spread differently?

WE ALL COVERED THIS MONTHS AGO, INCLUDING YOU. Fuck, most of your "allies" here already acknowledged this. Is this how it's going to go, where we hack through a discussion only to later just repeat the same shit as if we hadn't discussed it and force the same discussion again and again even on things which eventually are agreed to at the time? Damn dude I think you're just trolling me at this point. Which OK, it's this particular sub-forum on this message board so no great sin, but damn...

I have never agreed with your contentions. Specifically I have never agreed with the contention that flu and covid spread differently. Both are spread by aerosols (large or small).

According to the WHO (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-similarities-and-differences-with-influenza):
Secondly, both viruses are transmitted by contact, droplets and fomites. As a result, the same public health measures, such as hand hygiene and good respiratory etiquette (coughing into your elbow or into a tissue and immediately disposing of the tissue), are important actions all can take to prevent infection.

And the CDC, with respect to flu (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm):
People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes.

And the EPA, with respect to covid (https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/indoor-air-and-coronavirus-covid-19):
Spread of COVID-19 occurs via airborne particles and droplets. People who are infected with COVID can release particles and droplets of respiratory fluids that contain the SARS CoV-2 virus into the air when they exhale (e.g., quiet breathing, speaking, singing, exercise, coughing, sneezing). The droplets or aerosol particles vary across a wide range of sizes – from visible to microscopic. Once infectious droplets and particles are exhaled, they move outward from the person (the source). These droplets carry the virus and transmit infection. Indoors, the very fine droplets and particles will continue to spread through the air in the room or space and can accumulate.

That said, I do acknowledge that under certain conditions, even a surgical mask or cloth mask can provide some mitigation. For example, two people standing two feet apart, one with covid. The one with covid sneezes, coughs, or talks, the surgical mask (or a hand or tissue) prevents the other person from getting a face full. So not a bad idea to wear a mask when you are unable to social distance.

Conversely, I am sitting in my 8'x8' cube (with 5' walls and a closed sliding door). My colleague (infected with covid) is sitting in the cube next to me. Our cubes are in a compartment with 10' high ceilings and there is an A/C supply register over each cube. He is not sneezing, coughing, or talking; just breathing normally. Him wearing a surgical mask provides no protection to me. And even if he does sneeze/cough/talk, him wearing/not wearing a mask has little impact on the viral load in my cube. Gravitational settling will relatively rapidly (~10 minutes) remove the large aerosols. The smaller aerosols will remain airborne for longer, but in a well-ventilated compartment they will be diluted and removed.

An argument that I might agree with would be that even the low-quality mitigation provided by a non-N95 mask has an impact on overall population transmission. The problem there is that the modeling done to date that would support that is crap. For example, the UK guy (who wanted everyone locked down, and then snuck out to fuck his mistress) that predicted millions of deaths, nobody else can run his models or when they do (with the same inputs) they get different answers. Moreover, I have yet to see anyone explain how they characterized their input uncertainty and model uncertainty (let alone account for alternative conceptual models), or present verification and validation for their models.

As for "covering this months ago", I have yet to see anyone address my specific issues. I am receptive to someone poking holes in the suppositions I have come to based on my experience in modeling fluid flow, aerosol fate and transport, and probabilistic/risk-based modeling of complex systems. Please feel free to explain where my physical characterizations are incorrect, and what the proper physics-based characterizations you believe are correct in their stead.

We can also add to the list the lack of response my wanting to know why there are are no results in the Bangladesh study that show how much of the overall variance is explained by their correlation with respect to wearing masks. I have a professional interest in this, as if you don't need show such results, I would like to cite that (proper) technical basis for doing so, such that I can ignore it in my work.

Now getting to St. Fauci and his reversal regarding masks, where is this research that dropped between his statements in correspondence and the 60 Minutes interview (March 8, 2020) that led to his Road to Damascus conversion (or that of the CDC on April 8, 2020)?

Regards.