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Author Topic: Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition  (Read 11313 times)

Nexus

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2017, 10:26:47 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;954044
I think assuming the only reason someone is attracted to "women with female breasts and a vagina" and not attracted to "women with male breasts and a penis" is acculturation is rather silly.

I agree, that seems to go beyond cultural bias to basic orientation. Many homosexual men aren't attracted to male bodies with a vulva and lesbians aren't automatically drawn to female bodies but with a penis/testicles without a large degree of cultural influence to drive those desires. In fairness, I think one could make a better argument that not wanting to be intimate with post operative Transexual is driven by or largely by cultural factors. But even that does go back to what the individuals considers to be a man or woman (and there are some important issues some of which White mentions like the potential of children). Frankly, Riley's video did strike me as largely an attempt to guilt trip people that didn't share the view the gender/sex is strictly in the mind of the beholder or as being manipulated by cultural lies. Physical genitalia is different from, say, skin tone, when it comes to sex and sexual activity.
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Ratman_tf

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2017, 11:44:53 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;954044
I think assuming the only reason someone is attracted to "women with female breasts and a vagina" and not attracted to "women with male breasts and a penis" is acculturation is rather silly.

In my estimation, culture can influence what is percieved to signal attractiveness in a man, or in a woman, but the basic attraction is still to a man or a woman.

No amount of culture will make a giant scorpion sexy. (Unusual kinks being a different subject anyway.)
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Warboss Squee

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2017, 12:30:33 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;954044
I think assuming the only reason someone is attracted to "women with female breasts and a vagina" and not attracted to "women with male breasts and a penis" is acculturation is rather silly.

I'm willing to bet that it mostly comes down to the fact that just because I like playing with my penis, doesn't mean I want to play with yours, regardless of what it's (or who) attached to.

Voros
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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2017, 06:20:31 AM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;954055
In my estimation, culture can influence what is percieved to signal attractiveness in a man, or in a woman, but the basic attraction is still to a man or a woman.

No amount of culture will make a giant scorpion sexy. (Unusual kinks being a different subject anyway.)



The prevalence of what we would consider homosexual relations in Greece, Rome and even 19th century Japan suggest that 'basic attraction' is more complex than that. Not to mention how common consensual homosexual relations are in prisons.

Necrozius

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2017, 06:48:11 AM »
Quote from: Brand55;953982
Roaming Millenial also did a response to one of Riley's videos on this subject a few days ago, and she also mentions how a lot of criticism directed his way is getting stifled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifLbtkxXXFU.


I like Roaming Millenial, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of her conclusions. At least she doesn't sink low into childish ad-hominems. She's even reached out to other youtubers with opposing views. I wish more people were open to dialogue. I hope that she engages more with "the other side" rather than just echo chambers in the future.

Nexus

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2017, 07:40:02 AM »
Quote from: Brand55;953982
Roaming Millenial also did a response to one of Riley's videos on this subject a few days ago, and she also mentions how a lot of criticism directed his way is getting stifled: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifLbtkxXXFU.

Interesting and the censorship she mentions seems similar to some of the shenanigans on Drivethru or other rpg platforms. Her video is a more mature rebuttal than that Blaire White's.

The "Skeptic" (if that's the term) community is interesting to me. Honestly, I hadn't considered it a community before as I don't hang out on youtube or other social media. But its also off topic.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 07:46:47 AM by Nexus »
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

S'mon

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2017, 09:52:10 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;954037

I would be curious to see some data on changes. For example, what percentage of white men said they found black women unattractive in the 1940s compared to what percentage say so today?


I'd be interested to see how it varied across Anglosphere countries - "black women are unattractive" seems to be a major trope in the USA, but much less so if at all here in the UK. The gender balance of interracial marriage is also more even here, though still skewed to black man/white woman by about 2:1. In the USA it's 3:1 on the last stats I saw.

Darrin Kelley

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2017, 10:13:09 AM »
If they still have a "package". They are not a woman. To put it bluntly. MTF trans are not legally female until they have gone through Sexual Reassignment Surgery.

And if the person in question tries to mis-represent themselves. It certainly is going to invite serious trouble.

I'm not saying it to be anti-trans. Far from it, in fact. It's something that comes down to consideration of the trans person's basic safety.

One has to face the fact that: We live in a society that is for the most part hostile and reactionary. When it comes to issues of gender identity.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 10:16:00 AM by Darrin Kelley »
 

Nexus

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2017, 10:57:50 AM »
Another aspect of the issue that wasn't really addressed was if it was "transphobic" for someone to not want to be romantically or sexually intimate with a post operative transexual? IIRC, Blaire White's video did briefly address the reproductive concerns.
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

Tristram Evans

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2017, 11:06:36 AM »
Just to be on the safe side, I guess the State should assign people partners :P

Ratman_tf

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2017, 11:10:29 AM »
Quote from: Voros;954108
The prevalence of what we would consider homosexual relations in Greece, Rome and even 19th century Japan suggest that 'basic attraction' is more complex than that. Not to mention how common consensual homosexual relations are in prisons.

You may note that I didn't distinguish orientations in my post. That was intentional.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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jhkim

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2017, 12:09:08 PM »
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;954144
If they still have a "package". They are not a woman. To put it bluntly. MTF trans are not legally female until they have gone through Sexual Reassignment Surgery.

And if the person in question tries to mis-represent themselves. It certainly is going to invite serious trouble.
That's true in some countries and states, but not universally so. In the U.S., many states instead require proof of "appropriate clinical treatment" by a doctor, leaving the details of what hormones, therapy, and/or surgery is necessary up to the medical community. (cf. http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/article/trans-identity-document-faq ) Further, there are states and countries that recognize non-binary gender.

The issue is that gender matters for a great deal of public interaction in society, and genitals are the least public part of a person. There are a number of physical features that differ between typical men and women - facial hair and features, hand size, breasts, figures (hands and hips), as well as genitals. Either due to rare natural conditions (the various intersex conditions) or because of medical treatment, though, this pattern can differ. Many would say that if the government is going to be in the business of declaring binary gender for people on public documents, that it should primarily match the public parts of a person.

As far as social interaction goes, there is the question of when genitalia should come up. This doesn't even have to do with being trans per se. For example, a man can have an impotence condition or a damaged penis. When should he reveal that to someone he starts to date? I don't have any definite position on this. However, I think that oversharing can also be inviting trouble compared to keeping one's genitals a secret. Consider a trans woman in pre-op status who passes as born female, like Blair White. She could only tell a person if she is at the point of potentially having sex with them. This could result in a violent reaction, but at least she's had a chance to gauge that person. However, if she declares early in any interaction her status, then she's telling a lot more people, and is more likely to accidentally tell someone who is violently anti-trans.

Darrin Kelley

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2017, 01:29:10 PM »
I live in the US state considered the most pro-trans than any other. California.

Even in California. A responsible therapist will constantly and severely caution their clients about engaging in any activity that would put them in potential danger.

Merely cross-dressing in public invites a lot of negative reaction. More than that? It's almost unthinkable.

And if the trans person isn't seeing a therapist? Well that situation needs immediate correction.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 01:35:19 PM by Darrin Kelley »
 

Nexus

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2017, 02:13:49 PM »
I thought Blaire White was post GRS.


Seems like if the government were going to issue hypothetical "gender licenses" (I don't see that happening in the US) then genital configuration would be the most objective measure. Otherwise it would be an aesthetics call over who "passes" well enough. Does Riley or Blairie? What about those trangender women and/or visible male pattern baldness that sport full beards but dress as women?  And frankly while genitalia are the least "public" sign of gender I think many people, arguably the majority would feel they're the most important one. But crotch check coos aren't likely which is why I don't think something like that would come to pass.

Hopefully you'd respect someone you were considering being sexually intimate with enough tell them soon enough to allow them to make have informed consent when not in a highly emotional state of mind. I don't imagine it would be easy but it would be something you should if you respect that person's rights as much as your own. The analogy of an impotent man or a woman with medical condition that prohibits intercourse isn't quit the same. Consensual mutually pleasurable sexual relations are still possible but will require one of the involved parties to cross what for many is a major line. Its an incredibly sensitive issue touching in deep aspect of identity, ethics, emotional and spiritual beliefs. I guess there really can't be a one size fits all answer. Maybe there is no best time just the least bad.
Remember when Illinois Nazis where a joke in the Blue Brothers movie?

Democracy, meh? (538)

 "The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it."

Tristram Evans

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Break Saturday: Obligatory Transgender-sex Edition
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2017, 02:23:45 PM »
I know this is taking a sensitive, well-thought out, and considerate post and reducing it to a bad double entendre, but...

Quote from: Nexus;954201
I guess there really can't be a one size fits all answer.