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Author Topic: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!  (Read 31229 times)

jhkim

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #135 on: August 18, 2021, 08:01:34 PM »
I think any comparisons between countries is looking far more at other conditions rather than ethnic diversity. I am generally skeptical of social science conclusions, especially when they're looking at something as broad and nebulous as diversity - and the breadth of possible outcomes of whether something is overall bad or good for society.


As far as diversity strengthening a society -- I'm not saying that it always does or always doesn't. It depends on the case. I think it has the potential to strengthen for similar reasons for why trade is good for an economy. By having internal populations with differences, those internal populations can exchange and benefit from their differing strengths and skills.

Yet the data you were asserting is so important refutes this idea.

I don't see any evidence that it does. From what I can tell of the research, broadly, greater ethnic diversity has a relationship with greater distrust in one's neighbors and with certain forms of crime. But that isn't the whole of what makes a society better or worse. There are a ton of other social values. For example, a summary article on social trust measures and ethnic diversity concluded:

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1. On average, social trust is lower in more ethnically diverse contexts. However, the rather modest size of the difference implies that apocalyptic claims regarding the severe threat of ethnic diversity for social trust in contemporary societies are exaggerated.
2. The negative relationship between ethnic diversity and social trust applies for all types of trust, but there is substantial variation in strength between types. The negative relationship is strongest for trust in neighbors, intermediate for in-group trust and generalized social trust, and weakest (and statistically insignificant) for out-group trust. Ethnic diversity matters more for trust in people in one’s immediate residential setting, but the effect also extends beyond this setting to trust in other people in general.
Source: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-polisci-052918-020708

In simpler terms, I'm quite familiar with the low-diversity society of South Korea, and while I love my relatives there, I don't find the overall society generally better.


I'm depressed to see that South Korea's suicide rate has risen even higher while Japan's has been dropping. South Korea is another non-diverse society.)

Meanwhile Seoul looks distinctly Korean, clean, low crime, and high trust while Paris looks like this:

I've been to both Seoul and Paris many times and have friends and relatives who live in both. In terms of overall life and happiness, there's a ton of differences, but no clear choice from what I see. France has a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100K which is higher than South Korea's of 0.6 per 100K, but they're both quite low compared to the rest of the world. Meanwhile, Franch has a suicide rate of 13 per 100K compared to South Korea's suicide rate of 26 per 100K, which is one of the highest in the world.

I'm not claiming that any of these are inherent from ethnic diversity, but that's my point. Comparing countries over ethnic diversity doesn't show a whole lot.

oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2021, 08:31:16 PM »
  Diversity propaganda aside attempting to use the word 'immigrants' to make Denmark sound 'diverse' what we should be concerned about is where the former drug dealers and pedos stuffed into the thousands of refugees are going to end up.  I also suspect a jihadi or 1000 will end up somewhere they decide to make some mayhem.   Afghanistan was ALWAYS A COMPLETE FUCKING DISASTER.  It should have been a rain of hell on wherever we thought any masterminds had a hand in 9/11 were and roll on to pakistan, tell them we are coming in to get Osama and have been done with it.

   The USA is an empire in decline, SERIOUS decline.  My concern now, is an empire in decline, facing a recession/depression often tries to find a massive war to get involved in to 'fix' it.  The more I think over China, the more I start to wonder if we are headed down a path of no return as a nation.   Ah well.  It was a good run.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #137 on: August 18, 2021, 08:33:59 PM »
Regarding military supplies:  My understanding is that the U.S. weapons in Taliban hands come from weapons that we supplied to the Afghan government forces over 20 years. That seems like a dilemma - should we have taken back weapons given to the Afghan government forces? That makes sense in hindsight, but especially if we had pulled out back in May, it would have seemed like even more of a betrayal of the Afghans who had supported us.

https://www.etvbharat.com/english/national/bharat/thanks-to-us-taliban-has-an-air-force-now-11-military-bases/na20210816182849150

You make it sound like they got some poxy Army surplus.

I don't see where you get that from what I wrote. That article seems to back up exactly what I said. The weapons in the Taliban hands are those given to the Afghan government forces over two decades of support. Yes, those arms are substantial - since over the twenty years, we have spent billions in training and arming the Afghan army.

In retrospect, we shouldn't have spent so much to arm them in the first place. But that's a long-term strategic problem, not something from this year.

In terms of how to handle the withdrawal (which Trump had agreed to), the dilemma is whether we should have tried to reclaim or destroy the weapons of the Afghan army when we withdrew. I maintain that if we took away our allies' weapons, it would have seemed like an even greater betrayal to them. Maybe we should have done it anyway, but it's not an easy choice.

The argument I have heard is that the Afghanistan forces were integrated with American air support, and the sudden withdrawl of that support is a big part of how this turned into a rout, where the gear and assets were simply left behind instead of collected or turned over to the existing Afghanistan forces, allowing the Taliban to simply saunter in and pick it all up.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/afghan-president-surfaces-united-arab-142839211.html

The sticking point for me is not whether we should have gotten out, but that it was done in such a bone-headed way, and possibly as a petulant dig on Trump's original withdrawl plan, which Biden tossed out the window.
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Reckall

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #138 on: August 19, 2021, 02:27:27 AM »
Meanwhile Seoul looks distinctly Korean, clean, low crime, and high trust while Paris looks like this:

As someone who, before Covid, worked in Paris for years and has as his hobby walking around, I can say that those pictures look suspiciously like cherry picking - and I was someone strolling less than a kilometer from Charlie Hebdo when they were hit by the terrorists.
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oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #139 on: August 19, 2021, 09:42:21 AM »
  I made a comment about monocultures being stronger than diverse culture (on another thread)...I think the Taliban is pretty much proving that one out.  I think China will also prove it out over the next 10 years.  This is not to say I prefer a monoculture, but anyone who thinks having people on one team who argue and fight with one another is going to outperform a team where the members work together and have the same goals/worldview is simply not being objective.

deadDMwalking

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #140 on: August 19, 2021, 11:03:12 AM »
  I made a comment about monocultures being stronger than diverse culture (on another thread)...I think the Taliban is pretty much proving that one out.  I think China will also prove it out over the next 10 years.  This is not to say I prefer a monoculture, but anyone who thinks having people on one team who argue and fight with one another is going to outperform a team where the members work together and have the same goals/worldview is simply not being objective.

I'd say this is basically 100% wrong.  A competitive-cooperative culture outperforms a monoculture just about every time.  For example, the rise of Western Europe to a colonial power was tied with competition between European powers within a generally cooperative framework.  The United States with a federated system also allows 50 versions of the same goal - ideally the best methods propagate and become universal. 

I don't know that I would ever consider a period of US History to reflect a 'monoculture'.  I know that I would not consider any other nation since 1830 to have 'outperformed' the United States in a meaningful way. 
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

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KingCheops

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #141 on: August 19, 2021, 11:35:56 AM »
Meanwhile Seoul looks distinctly Korean, clean, low crime, and high trust while Paris looks like this:

As someone who, before Covid, worked in Paris for years and has as his hobby walking around, I can say that those pictures look suspiciously like cherry picking - and I was someone strolling less than a kilometer from Charlie Hebdo when they were hit by the terrorists.

It also ignores the fact that that's kind of a French (or at least Parisian) thing to do.  "They're rioting in Paris again."  "Oh is it Tuesday already?"

jhkim

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #142 on: August 19, 2021, 11:39:11 AM »
  I made a comment about monocultures being stronger than diverse culture (on another thread)...I think the Taliban is pretty much proving that one out.  I think China will also prove it out over the next 10 years.  This is not to say I prefer a monoculture, but anyone who thinks having people on one team who argue and fight with one another is going to outperform a team where the members work together and have the same goals/worldview is simply not being objective.

The Taliban and the CCP are totalitarian governments that don't permit dissent, but their societies are not monocultures like Japan or South Korea. Particularly for Afghanistan, it's quite the opposite. Afghanistan has always been a diverse crossroads in between major powers, with different languages spoken, different traditions, and so forth between the Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, and others. It's trying to unite those different cultures that has been a challenge for colonial governments.

As for totalitarian governments being stronger - I think that is short-sighted. There is an tactical advantage to not allowing dissent - it permits more swift and decisive actions. However, I think in the long-term, totalitarian governments have proven less stable than democracies. Totalitarian regimes like the Nazis, the Soviets, and many others have come and gone, with governments frequently falling apart within a generation.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #143 on: August 19, 2021, 11:42:29 AM »
  I made a comment about monocultures being stronger than diverse culture (on another thread)...I think the Taliban is pretty much proving that one out.  I think China will also prove it out over the next 10 years.  This is not to say I prefer a monoculture, but anyone who thinks having people on one team who argue and fight with one another is going to outperform a team where the members work together and have the same goals/worldview is simply not being objective.

I'd say this is basically 100% wrong.  A competitive-cooperative culture outperforms a monoculture just about every time.  For example, the rise of Western Europe to a colonial power was tied with competition between European powers within a generally cooperative framework.  The United States with a federated system also allows 50 versions of the same goal - ideally the best methods propagate and become universal. 

I don't know that I would ever consider a period of US History to reflect a 'monoculture'.  I know that I would not consider any other nation since 1830 to have 'outperformed' the United States in a meaningful way.
Here's your problem: you don't get 'competitive-cooperative culture' unless you've got some sort of shared cultural foundation to work from.

Otherwise, you get straight up competing cultures that are on a collision course.

deathknight4044

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #144 on: August 19, 2021, 12:07:40 PM »
I
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don't see any evidence that it does.
Then you followed up with

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From what I can tell of the research, broadly, greater ethnic diversity has a relationship with greater distrust in one's neighbors and with certain forms of crime. But that isn't the whole of what makes a society better or worse. There are a ton of other social values.


That sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics. Higher crime rates and lower trust and public participation are objectively bad things for a nation's cohesion and quality of life.

Quote
In simpler terms, I'm quite familiar with the low-diversity society of South Korea, and while I love my relatives there, I don't find the overall society generally better.

The greatest places to live in the world are either Korea, Japan, or numerous White western democracies. Regardless of your preference for culture, the problems in White western democracies that mass demographic change is producing is reliably the same. You might not find South Korea a generally better society, but they don't have grooming gangs and their problems aren't derived from being a homogeneous nation state.


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France has a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100K which is higher than South Korea's of 0.6 per 100K, but they're both quite low compared to the rest of the world

When comparing France to places like South Africa and Brazil that may be true.The reality is:

https://rmx.news/article/nearly-half-of-paris-ghetto-criminals-have-a-migrant-background/

Quote
I'm not claiming that any of these are inherent from ethnic diversity, but that's my point. Comparing countries over ethnic diversity doesn't show a whole lot.

The data shows that it does however

• Ethnic diversity causally decreases social cohesion: http://esr.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/08/20/esr.jcv081.full

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As someone who, before Covid, worked in Paris for years and has as his hobby walking around, I can say that those pictures look suspiciously like cherry picking - and I was someone strolling less than a kilometer from Charlie Hebdo when they were hit by the terrorists."

France didn't look like this on the year 2000.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/paris-suburb-home-to-300000-illegal-immigrants-report-says

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-paris/french-police-clear-paris-migrant-camp-idUSKCN1PN19R

The more it is filled with third world people the more it will look like the third world. 

Quote
The problems with illegal and unlimited immigration is not a failure of civic nationalism; it's a failure to apply civic nationalism.

Multiculturalism is a failed ideology from the onset and competing factions will organize down obvious lines, most often racial background. The radical independent stuff that ran from the 80s-2Ks is a dead ideology. People will either sort yourself into some sort of bloc or get no power or influence at all


oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #145 on: August 19, 2021, 01:25:51 PM »
  I made a comment about monocultures being stronger than diverse culture (on another thread)...I think the Taliban is pretty much proving that one out.  I think China will also prove it out over the next 10 years.  This is not to say I prefer a monoculture, but anyone who thinks having people on one team who argue and fight with one another is going to outperform a team where the members work together and have the same goals/worldview is simply not being objective.

I'd say this is basically 100% wrong.  A competitive-cooperative culture outperforms a monoculture just about every time.  For example, the rise of Western Europe to a colonial power was tied with competition between European powers within a generally cooperative framework.  The United States with a federated system also allows 50 versions of the same goal - ideally the best methods propagate and become universal. 

I don't know that I would ever consider a period of US History to reflect a 'monoculture'.  I know that I would not consider any other nation since 1830 to have 'outperformed' the United States in a meaningful way.

  Other than in wars like Vietnam and Afghanistan you mean??

  Edited to add:  Is it that the over 90 percent christian/european population that made up the USA up until around 1965 was a super diverse culture?   I can say I think I am fine with your disagreement, and since the USA is MUCH more diverse now than in 1965, we can both sit back, and watch how the empire reacts the next 20 years.  Then we can have an answer about who is right.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 01:35:17 PM by oggsmash »

oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #146 on: August 19, 2021, 01:29:40 PM »
  I made a comment about monocultures being stronger than diverse culture (on another thread)...I think the Taliban is pretty much proving that one out.  I think China will also prove it out over the next 10 years.  This is not to say I prefer a monoculture, but anyone who thinks having people on one team who argue and fight with one another is going to outperform a team where the members work together and have the same goals/worldview is simply not being objective.

The Taliban and the CCP are totalitarian governments that don't permit dissent, but their societies are not monocultures like Japan or South Korea. Particularly for Afghanistan, it's quite the opposite. Afghanistan has always been a diverse crossroads in between major powers, with different languages spoken, different traditions, and so forth between the Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, and others. It's trying to unite those different cultures that has been a challenge for colonial governments.

As for totalitarian governments being stronger - I think that is short-sighted. There is an tactical advantage to not allowing dissent - it permits more swift and decisive actions. However, I think in the long-term, totalitarian governments have proven less stable than democracies. Totalitarian regimes like the Nazis, the Soviets, and many others have come and gone, with governments frequently falling apart within a generation.

  Nazis did not just dissolve.  The fact they were totalitarian did not do them in, massive hubris and fighting a world war on two fronts did them in.   The soviets were different in that they were grossly incompetent at central planning an economy, I would also add, they had MASSIVE diversity inside that empire that balkanized...

   The Taliban dominates the region because their culture is stronger, they ARE a monoculture.  For some strange reason, you read Taliban and talk to me about afghanistan... missing the point because of afghanistan's very diverse cultures, they got their shit pushed in by the monoculture (Taliban).

  Regarding totalitarians being more short lived than democracies.... Do you think human history started in the colonial ages?  Because unless you do, saying democracies are historically proven out versus totalitarian governments is a complete lack of historical knowledge or context.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 01:31:56 PM by oggsmash »

jhkim

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #147 on: August 19, 2021, 01:52:45 PM »
The problems with illegal and unlimited immigration is not a failure of civic nationalism; it's a failure to apply civic nationalism.

How would you go about enforcing this? How do you know which people have the same values? Do African americans or the children of Hispanics/Asians agree with those values? It's unfalsifiable; if they assimilate, they had compatible values. If they didn't, they weren't true Americans. Ultimately, you still have division based on identity and different demographic trends (crime, academic performance, employment, welfare, abortion, music, etc.) and voting patterns in spite of decades of attempts to bring them all together. If this were a marriage, they would be talking about a divorce.

If the majority of the country became mostly Hispanic and not Anglo-Saxon (which is happening) would the country be the same? how about African americans or Asians? I think deep down we all know that America is a bit more than just a few political institutions, and culture, lifestyle and politics would change if the people change. I can guarantee you none of them left their identity behind the moment they crossed the border, legally or illegally.

The U.S. became majority non-Anglo-Saxon ages ago. Over the course of the 19th century, immigration shifted to continental Europe - plus non-Anglo-saxon populations like the Irish and the Scottish. For over a century, the majority of American citizens are descended from non-English-speakers -- whether that is German-speaking, Italian-speaking, Spanish-speaking, or many other languages and cultures.

Of course, nowadays we don't make a big deal if someone is of Italian descent. They're called "white non-Hispanic" and lumped together with Anglo-Saxons, but that's a case of shifting standards. Back in 1920, many Americans made a big deal about the problems of Italians, Irish, and similar - leading to the Immigration Act of 1924 that established national quotas.

And I agree, immigrants like Italian-Americans didn't leave their identity behind the moment they crossed the border. The differing identities of them and other immigrants changed the culture of the U.S. But culture always changes. That's going to happen regardless of immigration.

jhkim

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #148 on: August 19, 2021, 02:36:22 PM »
The Taliban and the CCP are totalitarian governments that don't permit dissent, but their societies are not monocultures like Japan or South Korea. Particularly for Afghanistan, it's quite the opposite. Afghanistan has always been a diverse crossroads in between major powers, with different languages spoken, different traditions, and so forth between the Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, and others. It's trying to unite those different cultures that has been a challenge for colonial governments.
   The Taliban dominates the region because their culture is stronger, they ARE a monoculture.  For some strange reason, you read Taliban and talk to me about afghanistan... missing the point because of afghanistan's very diverse cultures, they got their shit pushed in by the monoculture (Taliban).

The Taliban aren't an independent culture to themselves. They are a broad internal political/religious movement within Afghanistan, not a separate foreign society that has forced itself onto Afghan society. Saying that the Taliban beat Afghanistan is off-base, mixing apples and oranges. The Taliban beat the U.S.-backed Republic of Afghanistan government.


As for totalitarian governments being stronger - I think that is short-sighted. There is an tactical advantage to not allowing dissent - it permits more swift and decisive actions. However, I think in the long-term, totalitarian governments have proven less stable than democracies. Totalitarian regimes like the Nazis, the Soviets, and many others have come and gone, with governments frequently falling apart within a generation.
  Regarding totalitarians being more short lived than democracies.... Do you think human history started in the colonial ages?  Because unless you do, saying democracies are historically proven out versus totalitarian governments is a complete lack of historical knowledge or context.

My impression was that the core issue is nations going into the future. i.e. What is best going forward? For that point, I think the last two centuries are more relevant than medieval or ancient times. Though I'd agree that it isn't completely clear. If you want to talk about all of history, that's a different question.

For a modern country, I think that having a strong national identity is important for stability. However, I don't think that cultural and ethnic unity is important. Multicultural countries seem to be doing roughly as well as single-culture countries.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #149 on: August 19, 2021, 02:39:39 PM »
And I agree, immigrants like Italian-Americans didn't leave their identity behind the moment they crossed the border. The differing identities of them and other immigrants changed the culture of the U.S. But culture always changes. That's going to happen regardless of immigration.

Different =/= Better.

Regardless, anything can be bad if taken to a stupid extreme. And diversity as I have mentioned many times before is viewed as a VIRTUE in it of itself when at best its a neutral trait.
Diversity can bring new perspectives, or it could rip apart existing sociatal sctructures. Its not a superpower or an inherent strength.