Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!

[Pat]

I think the criticism of the ever-changing leadership priorities among the US military leadership, and their incentive to score points for the short-term prestige of their units, was on point. But the whole part about "what we really should have done..." is bullshit. There's no indication a consistent long term strategy would have miraculously made it work. The Middle East is a quagmire. It's not a quagmire of the US's making; the roots are in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. But the US has definitely made it worse with the endless wars and interventions.

This is generally true but Afghanistan was never part of the Ottoman empire. And regarding the Ottoman's, they kept control of unruly provinces by executing the leaders of said province every time shit started. They'd show up, arrest the local leaders, and kill them. Once they lost the ability to project power (ala Saudi Arabia) it started to fall apart.

I don't think such a strategy would have worked in Afghanistan, short of genocide.

I didn't say Afghanistan was part of the Ottoman Empire, but its collapse destabilized the whole region and was the seed that led to things like the rise of Islamic extremism, and more broadly even things like the World Wars and rise of the Soviet Union. It's a big part of the reason why the whole Middle East has become a quagmire, and its problems seem so intractable.

[Rob Necronomicon]

I was not aware the USA invaded Syria.

I hope european nations are smart enough this time to just say no. .

Sorry slightly hyperbolic on my part there. What I mean is that as you say the US military got involved (with airstrikes, supplies and the like) in Syria and Libya. In order to attempt to topple both regimes by their own people. Unfortunately this had a terrible effect on Libya which is now spewing out refugees left, right and center. Same as Syria. Once the Russians got involved I knew the US and UK would be out of their quick smart. Nobody on the planet can fuck with either the Chinese or the Russians.

Sure, there might be some sabre rattling to save face, but those to nations are untouchable (unlike N. Korea). Not just because of their military might (we know the Americans are superior technically) but they have fuck all morals and christ knows what they'd be willing to do.

I have no real hope for Europe (one or two of the scandi countries are getting it). But the EU want to be seen 'doing the right thing' and let in as many Taliban, I mean Refugees in as possible. With the rise of Islam in Europe it's no wonder we are starting to see the rise of the far right. I think these refugees (who obviously need help) would be better placed in other middle-eastern countries and perhaps we could send economic aid or something. But huge migration is not going to solve things in the long term imo.

[Ocule]

This falls on biden as much as it does on bush. I didn't serve in afghanistan and i've never seen war, i've known alot of people who have and I gotta say this felt like a slap in the face to all those who sacrificed in that shit hole, and spitting in the face of everyone we made promises to over there.

We needed to leave afghanistan, a coordinated withdrawal of troops, after failing miserably at nation building. Biden's weakness gave them what they needed (army intel reported that they could do this, and were ignored). Now everyone who helped us is being executed, and we evacuated in a hurry leaving stockpiles of weapons and vehicles for them. So fucking embarrassing an dangerous. If you cannot recover your war assets, you blow them up so they cannot be used against you in the future. Now they have shiny new weapons, armor, and aircraft.

Biden is a fucking embarrassment, the deep state opted to put a fucking senile old man and the wicked bitch of the west in the highest office of the land and now their hands are so far up their asses I can see the puppeteers fingers in their mouth when they speak.

[SonTodoGato]

It's astounding how the ruling class is able to pivot a tremendous loss -- Losing a 20 year war, with tens of thousands of casualties, trillions of dollars wasted, billions of dollars of military hardware lost to the enemy -- And turn it into an even bigger nightmare by immediately pivoting from their colossal failure to demanding that the US accept tens of thousands of Afghans into the US, without doing a damned thing to check if the people they are flying over at a tremendous cost of $500 million dollars are terrorists or not.

And after they fly them over here the culturally incompatible Afghan refugees overwhelmingly become wards of the state and a further drain on US society. None of the "experts" think it might be a better idea to relocate to any number of other regions like Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, or any other location that's closer and a better fit for the lifestyle and skills they have.

Sincerely wish we could airlift some useless politicians and NGO shitheads into Afghanistan right now.

This will end up being another failure of the mindset that's pervading America and leading it into socialism; civic nationalism, globalism and "neo-cons" (which are actually all trostkyites who love the "new world order"; a code word used by Marx, H.G. Wells to mean international socialism, literally).

It's the irrational belief that "anyone can be an American", that problems are solved if we just throw money and social workers at it. Might as well replace all Americans with Bulgarians, Italians, Pygmies, Maoris, Inuits, Nordics, Asians or whatever people you come up with and the result will always be the same if you just give them a chance to assimilate (which some people never do). The idea that you can take an islamist and turn him into a Jeffersonian liberal who doesn't see race and adheres to secular humanist values of the 21st century, ready to march alongside people of other races so that gay couples can protect their weed crops with guns. The same ideology that states that the people who cross the border illegally are there to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and not to cash a welfare check or send money back to their country of origin, which a significant number of people do (not all of them, mind you).

And when they finally arrive, they become an easy prey for politicians who will play identity politics with them. Because none of them saw past identity; they're all hyphenated. Diversity is such a strength that it requires constant counseling and spending millions every day, and it's still not enough. Meanwhile, less diverse societies like Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Spain, etc. are poor countries with unsafe communities and weak economies that about to fall apart due to their lack of vibrant communities of color/lgbt/islam/etc.

It's been a failure since "Great society" and it will fail again. The accusation of "racism" is not allowing them as a society to see how much of a massive failure that is.

inb4 "racist racist"

This mindset is spreading to other places as well. "We're redefining what it means to be British", "Canada is a post-national country", "no such thing as Canadian values", that nordic airlines ad about how nothing is truly nordic, etc. It all leads to the abolishment of the nation-state, and globalism ensues.

[deadDMwalking]

Diversity is such a strength that it requires constant counseling and spending millions every day, and it's still not enough. Meanwhile, less diverse societies like Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Spain, etc. are poor countries with unsafe communities and weak economies that about to fall apart due to their lack of vibrant communities of color/lgbt/islam/etc.

I'm afraid I've completely missed your point.

Denmark is one of the most LGBTQ-Friendly Study Abroad Destinations in the World - In addition to consistently being rated as the happiest country in the world, Denmark takes second place as the most LGBTQ-friendly country on the planet.

And with 1 in 6 of the people in Denmark being immigrants or children of recent immigrants, it's not as diverse as the United States (the proverbial melting pot) but it's not insignificant. 

[Reckall]

USA did wreck Libya, but when I say USA I mean the military-industrial machine.

Libya was a geostrategic mess. It was the French who opened the hostilities in 2011, with their Air Force attacking targets in Libya before the "Zero-Hour". This act was actually condemned by the Allies and caused some diplomatic friction.

Why the French did this?

Part of this mess is, of course, oil. Italy and Libya have a "preferred relationship" regarding oil through ENI - "Ente Nazionale Idrocarburi" (my father was a petrochemical engineer and closely followed the situation for years, even if he never worked in that area). France, for decades, had fits about this. When the "liberation of Libya!" started, they did everything and more to show that "They were the ones!" to the new leadership - no matter what it turned out to be - and re-negotiate oil agreements with them.

Well, it didn't really work. True, Italian imports of oil from Libya are hit by the current instability, but all France got was to expand some already existing oil facilities - as long as they worked together with ENI and Libya's National Oil Corporation, which is a comical result

It is France that is always messing with Libya. For once the US are not involved: after Benghazi (a terrorist attack that was denounced and prosecuted by the Libyan government) they pulled out. Meanwhile, one day France tries to build a new government, the next day they are denouncing the current one. But France's endgame doesn't change: oil. In this they are resembling the coyote.

[Shrieking Banshee]

And with 1 in 6 of the people in Denmark being immigrants or children of recent immigrants, it's not as diverse as the United States (the proverbial melting pot) but it's not insignificant.

Id look into your data, but I know you argue in bad faith. If diversity made countries less happy then you would just discard the data and insist it be done anyway.

[SonTodoGato]

Diversity is such a strength that it requires constant counseling and spending millions every day, and it's still not enough. Meanwhile, less diverse societies like Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Spain, etc. are poor countries with unsafe communities and weak economies that about to fall apart due to their lack of vibrant communities of color/lgbt/islam/etc.

I'm afraid I've completely missed your point.

Denmark is one of the most LGBTQ-Friendly Study Abroad Destinations in the World - In addition to consistently being rated as the happiest country in the world, Denmark takes second place as the most LGBTQ-friendly country on the planet.

And with 1 in 6 of the people in Denmark being immigrants or children of recent immigrants, it's not as diverse as the United States (the proverbial melting pot) but it's not insignificant.

LGBT friendly does not necessarily mean diverse. It just means they pander to gays and you won't be harrassed in the streets (The latter is a positive trait in my view)

I couldn't find anything on 1/6 being immigrants or related to them. Either way, you're not seeing the full picture. Multiculturalism and pluralism was a cause for division, public spending and statism in America, as it is now in Germany, Sweden, France and other diversifying countries. Hell, even mine (another "nation of immigrants").

If diversity is such a strength, why aren't less diverse countries crumbling down? America wasn't nearly as diverse in the 1800s, yet that didn't stop them; it was a thriving country, with or without slavery.  Why does the US spend so much in diversity training, courses, senstivity, reparations, "fixing" inequalities, affirmative action, "no child left behind", diversifying neigbourhoods, etc.? What successes have they achieved? To this day, America still has riots, protests and general distrust (granted, instigated by left-wing elements). All of these things existed with or without modern democrats; it's what diversity does to societies in general, as it has happened throuhghout history. Same for Germany, France, Sweden, Japan, etc. they were doing fine without diversity, and now it's being introduced and people don't like it.

If you really believe Americans are united past race, go to any "diverse" district and have a conversation about politics with all of them. You'll find a staggering difference between Latinos, Blacks and Whites. Read surveys about the importance of race for each group and you'll find only whites think their ethnic identity is irrelevant (And I have my doubts about it given things like "white flight" or the fact that they're not moving to black neighbourhoods en masse)

Compare areas which are mostly white with areas which are mostly hispanic or black and you'll see they have their own distinct sub culture and even voting patterns. There's a reason why there are historically black colleges, church congregations, and even racial divisions in crime; gangs associated solely on common ancestry. Why are certain groups, mostly non-whites, overrepresented in crime? Either they are victims of racism or they are not part of a homogeneous group with shared values and thus similar outcomes. Can all Americans sit together and commemorate national heroes? Or will a large portion of them feel excluded?

All of this shows you that people don't see past race, not even in America. It's a waste of time, and the solution is to stop forcing diversity. No segregation, no discrimination or violence of any kind, simply stop forcing it. People will naturally choose to associate and they'll arrive at a peaceful coexistence.


I know what I wrote is disorganized but these are some ideas off the top of my head. It's not "nazi" or anything of that sort; it's a sociological reality which Americans have been taught to ignore.

[jhkim]

Regarding Afghan refugees:  The obvious parallel is the airlift and relocation of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese refugees after the Vietnam War. I would expect that the results will be similar here. There will be some friction and problems, but in general they become contributing citizens. Last year, SHARK started the thread "Vietnamese-Americans Rally for President Trump in California" where he was very exuberant about Vietnamese-Americans.


Regarding military supplies:  My understanding is that the U.S. weapons in Taliban hands come from weapons that we supplied to the Afghan government forces over 20 years. That seems like a dilemma - should we have taken back weapons given to the Afghan government forces? That makes sense in hindsight, but especially if we had pulled out back in May, it would have seemed like even more of a betrayal of the Afghans who had supported us.

Diversity is such a strength that it requires constant counseling and spending millions every day, and it's still not enough. Meanwhile, less diverse societies like Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Spain, etc. are poor countries with unsafe communities and weak economies that about to fall apart due to their lack of vibrant communities of color/lgbt/islam/etc.

And with 1 in 6 of the people in Denmark being immigrants or children of recent immigrants, it's not as diverse as the United States (the proverbial melting pot) but it's not insignificant.

Id look into your data, but I know you argue in bad faith. If diversity made countries less happy then you would just discard the data and insist it be done anyway.

So because you claim he ignores the data, you choose to ignore the data??? I think comparing countries is always tricky because there are so many differences. One is never comparing apples to apples. Still, I think deadDMWalking is largely accurate regarding Denmark. Looking at SonTodoGato's other countries, it looks very mixed to me. Spain has a terrible economy, Japan has a strong economy but high suicide, etc.

[Pat]

Regarding Afghan refugees:  The obvious parallel is the airlift and relocation of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese refugees after the Vietnam War. I would expect that the results will be similar here. There will be some friction and problems, but in general they become contributing citizens. Last year, SHARK started the thread "Vietnamese-Americans Rally for President Trump in California" where he was very exuberant about Vietnamese-Americans.

They still need to be vetted. Sky News Australia did a piece where they had a couple people documenting the employment history of people aiding their troops in Afghanistan, and how the government wasn't doing a thing about it and wasn't taking their calls. Given Biden's spectacular failure to prepare for anything, and very slow rate of VISAs being issued in the weeks before Kabul became an even worse Saigon, is there any reason to believe that all the people loaded onto the C-130s are being properly vetted, or that the Biden administration will do a thing for the tens of thousands left in the country?

[horsesoldier]

I think the criticism of the ever-changing leadership priorities among the US military leadership, and their incentive to score points for the short-term prestige of their units, was on point. But the whole part about "what we really should have done..." is bullshit. There's no indication a consistent long term strategy would have miraculously made it work. The Middle East is a quagmire. It's not a quagmire of the US's making; the roots are in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. But the US has definitely made it worse with the endless wars and interventions.

This is generally true but Afghanistan was never part of the Ottoman empire. And regarding the Ottoman's, they kept control of unruly provinces by executing the leaders of said province every time shit started. They'd show up, arrest the local leaders, and kill them. Once they lost the ability to project power (ala Saudi Arabia) it started to fall apart.

I don't think such a strategy would have worked in Afghanistan, short of genocide.

I didn't say Afghanistan was part of the Ottoman Empire, but its collapse destabilized the whole region and was the seed that led to things like the rise of Islamic extremism, and more broadly even things like the World Wars and rise of the Soviet Union. It's a big part of the reason why the whole Middle East has become a quagmire, and its problems seem so intractable.

Ok. But what does that have to do with Afghanistan?

[Shrieking Banshee]

So because you claim he ignores the data, you choose to ignore the data???

No. I meant debating data with a person that wouldn't care either way is a fools errand. They only bring up points that in theory matter to you but don't matter to them. Such as athiests bringing up christian talking points to christians when they find ANY of their beliefs to be a joke. I may disagree with you politically, but I find all your intentions honest, so debating data with you is a worthwhile endevor. deadDM isn't honest with his beliefs and intentions, and so it isn't with him.

And your right on comparisons. Japan has a toxic work culture and I don't know about spain. Also denmarks happiness ratio has fuck all to do with its immigrants and has remained stable for over a period of 40 years, while its immigration thing is only a recent occurence.

[horsesoldier]

Regarding Afghan refugees:  The obvious parallel is the airlift and relocation of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese refugees after the Vietnam War. I would expect that the results will be similar here. There will be some friction and problems, but in general they become contributing citizens. Last year, SHARK started the thread "Vietnamese-Americans Rally for President Trump in California" where he was very exuberant about Vietnamese-Americans.


Regarding military supplies:  My understanding is that the U.S. weapons in Taliban hands come from weapons that we supplied to the Afghan government forces over 20 years. That seems like a dilemma - should we have taken back weapons given to the Afghan government forces? That makes sense in hindsight, but especially if we had pulled out back in May, it would have seemed like even more of a betrayal of the Afghans who had supported us.

Diversity is such a strength that it requires constant counseling and spending millions every day, and it's still not enough. Meanwhile, less diverse societies like Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Spain, etc. are poor countries with unsafe communities and weak economies that about to fall apart due to their lack of vibrant communities of color/lgbt/islam/etc.

And with 1 in 6 of the people in Denmark being immigrants or children of recent immigrants, it's not as diverse as the United States (the proverbial melting pot) but it's not insignificant.

Id look into your data, but I know you argue in bad faith. If diversity made countries less happy then you would just discard the data and insist it be done anyway.

So because you claim he ignores the data, you choose to ignore the data??? I think comparing countries is always tricky because there are so many differences. One is never comparing apples to apples. Still, I think deadDMWalking is largely accurate regarding Denmark. Looking at SonTodoGato's other countries, it looks very mixed to me. Spain has a terrible economy, Japan has a strong economy but high suicide, etc.

There have been Afghan refugees for several decades now. Soviet's up to now. Show me a place where they're remotely as successful as the Vietnamese have been. Also, a foreign population being successful is meaningless; the president is just up and deciding to take them in. Where's the congressional debate? What law has been passed?

[Ghostmaker]

Regarding military supplies:  My understanding is that the U.S. weapons in Taliban hands come from weapons that we supplied to the Afghan government forces over 20 years. That seems like a dilemma - should we have taken back weapons given to the Afghan government forces? That makes sense in hindsight, but especially if we had pulled out back in May, it would have seemed like even more of a betrayal of the Afghans who had supported us.

https://www.etvbharat.com/english/national/bharat/thanks-to-us-taliban-has-an-air-force-now-11-military-bases/na20210816182849150

You make it sound like they got some poxy Army surplus.

Read 'em and weep. But hey, no more mean tweets.

[deathknight4044]

Regarding Afghan refugees:  The obvious parallel is the airlift and relocation of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese refugees after the Vietnam War. I would expect that the results will be similar here. There will be some friction and problems, but in general they become contributing citizens. Last year, SHARK started the thread "Vietnamese-Americans Rally for President Trump in California" where he was very exuberant about Vietnamese-Americans.


Regarding military supplies:  My understanding is that the U.S. weapons in Taliban hands come from weapons that we supplied to the Afghan government forces over 20 years. That seems like a dilemma - should we have taken back weapons given to the Afghan government forces? That makes sense in hindsight, but especially if we had pulled out back in May, it would have seemed like even more of a betrayal of the Afghans who had supported us.

Diversity is such a strength that it requires constant counseling and spending millions every day, and it's still not enough. Meanwhile, less diverse societies like Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Hungary, Spain, etc. are poor countries with unsafe communities and weak economies that about to fall apart due to their lack of vibrant communities of color/lgbt/islam/etc.

And with 1 in 6 of the people in Denmark being immigrants or children of recent immigrants, it's not as diverse as the United States (the proverbial melting pot) but it's not insignificant.

Id look into your data, but I know you argue in bad faith. If diversity made countries less happy then you would just discard the data and insist it be done anyway.

So because you claim he ignores the data, you choose to ignore the data??? I think comparing countries is always tricky because there are so many differences. One is never comparing apples to apples. Still, I think deadDMWalking is largely accurate regarding Denmark. Looking at SonTodoGato's other countries, it looks very mixed to me. Spain has a terrible economy, Japan has a strong economy but high suicide, etc.

The data:

Ethnic diversity causally decreases social cohesion: http://esr.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2015/08/20/esr.jcv081.full

Homogeneous societies have less crime, less civil war, and more altruism: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10464-013-9608-0

More diverse neighborhoods have lower social cohesion: http://www.citylab.com/housing/2013/11/paradox-diverse-communities/7614/

Homogeneous military units have less desertion than diverse units: http://www.nber.org/papers/w8627

In America, more diverse cities have more segregation: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-diverse-cities-are-often-the-most-segregated/



Denmark also seems to want to send its refugees back

https://www.fastcompany.com/90630405/denmark-is-trying-to-send-its-syrian-refugees-back

Why exactly do you think that is?