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Author Topic: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!  (Read 6561 times)

oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2021, 02:35:02 PM »
Surely the US won't have to do much work; only 3% of the population is fully vaxxed in Afghanistan. Covid must be ravaging the whole country; especially with the new variant.


Jokes aside, what is the formal explanation as to why America is in Afghanistan in the first place? I'm a bit out of the loop

   Spreading FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY from 30k feet up and from the barrel of a machine gun.   Because honestly, Americans are dumb shits who will go to war over damn near anything. 

Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2021, 02:36:07 PM »
Now, Trump rolls into office, upsetting rice bowls left and right. He looks at Afghanistan and says, 'OK, enough is enough. Time to bring our boys home.' He makes a diplomatic overture to the Taliban, secures an exit date of May 1st, 2021, and informs the Afghani government that it's time they put their big boy pants on and stop fucking around.

Unfortunately, the PTB don't LIKE that, and Trump 'loses' the election. Biden rolls in, and because the derp state/proggy narrative is to NEVER EVER let Trump have a point in the win column, Biden's handlers opt to alter the deal. Except they're not Darth fuckin' Vader.

So if Trump was in charge, he would have handed the keys over to the Taliban three months sooner and in a more orderly fashion. I get how that is better than a disorderly withdrawal later, but I don't think that huge a difference as implied by the original post. The Taliban would still be in charge and millions of Afghans terrified.
Again, refer to my above post. The Afghanis were going to be fucked regardless of what happened.

But we spent twenty fucking years there. If they can't figure out that dealing with the Taliban was a bad deal in 20 years, then we can do nothing for them. It's polishing the turd. It's trying to 'save' a drug addict who hasn't hit his rock bottom yet.

My educated guess is that Trump would've pulled us out and left the keys. Taking with us any 'undesirables' (read: Afghani allies, interpreters, or women who didn't feel like putting on the burka again), as well as our equipment.

But this is clearly what you wanted, right? A confused mad dash for the doors, because our airlift capacity is being used to ferry illegals across the U.S. instead of being used to move ACTUAL allies and equipment that MY GOD DAMN TAX DOLLARS PAID FOR.

So FUCK your snotty little 'oh so it would've been different'. There's thousands of actual AMERICANS marooned there now because of this incompetent pack of retards.  Thanks so much for your vote. I hope you're proud of it.
Just keep sharing your delusions by lashing out at everybody that has stated they don't like what's happening just because you want to believe differently to support your narrative.
Someone got a little tingle from watching Afghanis fall off the plane, I see.

Not really surprising though. You probably deluded yourself into believing Sleepy Joe's rambling incoherent speech (before he raced back off to hide) was 'stunning and brave'.
Look more of your nonsense where you erroneously suggest what others believe.  You really are a worthless piece of shit and bad at guessing too.
Yawn. It hasn't dawned on you yet, has it? I find it pleasing to gain the hatred of the contemptible, like you.

So were you Ridin' with Biden? Are you regretting it now?

Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2021, 02:37:43 PM »
Surely the US won't have to do much work; only 3% of the population is fully vaxxed in Afghanistan. Covid must be ravaging the whole country; especially with the new variant.


Jokes aside, what is the formal explanation as to why America is in Afghanistan in the first place? I'm a bit out of the loop

   People in general are dumb shits who will go to war over damn near anything.
FTFY. No argument, the plan went right out the window in Afghanistan assuming there ever was one. But as a species it's not like we've established a willingness to pause before reaching for the swords.

KingCheops

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2021, 02:37:55 PM »
At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area.

You so sure about that given Chinese missile capability?  The US Navy is projecting power across a big distance whereas the Chinese are firing from their mainland or their littoral waters.  There's been some interesting talk about small, maneuverable green water fleets in the SCS versus the big WW2 style blue water fleets.  I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable making that bet if I was Taiwanese.

SonTodoGato

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2021, 02:39:07 PM »
At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area. The message was clear.

The remaining question is "What happens if the war turns nuclear?" Rather worryingly, China is pursuing a nuclear buildup. It appears that they aim to reach parity with the US and Russia.

But a war for Taiwan will be an air and naval one. No troops on the ground (some could be deployed along the coast as deterrence). Of course the US and their allies could still fuck-up big time and one day wake up after China is already in Taiwan. It that case there will be nothing to do.

No one benefits from nuclear warfare. I think it's out of the table, save for being a psyop to intimidate others.

oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »
At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area. The message was clear.

The remaining question is "What happens if the war turns nuclear?" Rather worryingly, China is pursuing a nuclear buildup. It appears that they aim to reach parity with the US and Russia.

But a war for Taiwan will be an air and naval one. No troops on the ground (some could be deployed along the coast as deterrence). Of course the US and their allies could still fuck-up big time and one day wake up after China is already in Taiwan. It that case there will be nothing to do.

   Hey, there are never troops on the ground...till some asshat decides we need troops on the ground.  I also think the US Navy *could* create a one sided blood bath with China, however I think the chances of a US naval ship or plane firing on Chinese military forces is effectively zero.

SonTodoGato

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2021, 02:46:36 PM »
Surely the US won't have to do much work; only 3% of the population is fully vaxxed in Afghanistan. Covid must be ravaging the whole country; especially with the new variant.


Jokes aside, what is the formal explanation as to why America is in Afghanistan in the first place? I'm a bit out of the loop

   Spreading FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY from 30k feet up and from the barrel of a machine gun.   Because honestly, Americans are dumb shits who will go to war over damn near anything.

It's not "Americans", It's the people who are running the country; politicians, moguls and others. I reckon most people don't even know what's going on in the Middle East, and they had to be convinced in order to pull these interventions off; WMD, babies in incubators and others...

Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2021, 02:50:50 PM »
At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area. The message was clear.

The remaining question is "What happens if the war turns nuclear?" Rather worryingly, China is pursuing a nuclear buildup. It appears that they aim to reach parity with the US and Russia.

But a war for Taiwan will be an air and naval one. No troops on the ground (some could be deployed along the coast as deterrence). Of course the US and their allies could still fuck-up big time and one day wake up after China is already in Taiwan. It that case there will be nothing to do.

   Hey, there are never troops on the ground...till some asshat decides we need troops on the ground.  I also think the US Navy *could* create a one sided blood bath with China, however I think the chances of a US naval ship or plane firing on Chinese military forces is effectively zero.
Hunter-killer submarines would be my weapon of choice, though I admit I have no idea how sharp China's anti-sub warfare is.

But you start sinking their troop transports and they're not gonna invade a damn thing, except Davy Jones's locker.

But yeah, your final assessment is spot on at least in the short term.

oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2021, 02:51:12 PM »
Surely the US won't have to do much work; only 3% of the population is fully vaxxed in Afghanistan. Covid must be ravaging the whole country; especially with the new variant.


Jokes aside, what is the formal explanation as to why America is in Afghanistan in the first place? I'm a bit out of the loop

   Spreading FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY from 30k feet up and from the barrel of a machine gun.   Because honestly, Americans are dumb shits who will go to war over damn near anything.

It's not "Americans", It's the people who are running the country; politicians, moguls and others. I reckon most people don't even know what's going on in the Middle East, and they had to be convinced in order to pull these interventions off; WMD, babies in incubators and others...

   Honestly, when the towers got hit, the rage was palpable.  I watched A LOT of people go out an enlist to go out and get their war on what was described to them as a terrible fountain of evil.   They never bothered to ask why so many Saudi's were on the planes, why they were on a TERRROR WATCH LIST in the country yet allowed to move freely and take piloting classes, there was a COMPLETE lack of questions IMO from the general public in 2001.   The press and the people at the top just made the decisions that made them money or earned them political capital with no regard to what it would cost the average American.  Americans were still pretty keen on buying bullshit from "leaders" at that time.  So yeah, it was Americans who acted like dumbshits.  But at least when Obama came around selling his bullshit about Assad and nerve gas they said, "no thanks". 

Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2021, 02:54:20 PM »
And just because I'm going for that Golden Asshole trophy.

https://twitter.com/elibremer/status/1427632616707088397

Take a good look, lads and lasses. Foreign policy success, right?


Reckall

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2021, 02:55:26 PM »
At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area. The message was clear.

The remaining question is "What happens if the war turns nuclear?" Rather worryingly, China is pursuing a nuclear buildup. It appears that they aim to reach parity with the US and Russia.

But a war for Taiwan will be an air and naval one. No troops on the ground (some could be deployed along the coast as deterrence). Of course the US and their allies could still fuck-up big time and one day wake up after China is already in Taiwan. It that case there will be nothing to do.

   Hey, there are never troops on the ground...till some asshat decides we need troops on the ground.  I also think the US Navy *could* create a one sided blood bath with China, however I think the chances of a US naval ship or plane firing on Chinese military forces is effectively zero.

Either the US, for some reason, decide that Taiwan is not worth the effort (cue: North Korea paying attention), or they will fire. There are no other avenues of action.

At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area.

You so sure about that given Chinese missile capability?  The US Navy is projecting power across a big distance whereas the Chinese are firing from their mainland or their littoral waters.  There's been some interesting talk about small, maneuverable green water fleets in the SCS versus the big WW2 style blue water fleets.  I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable making that bet if I was Taiwanese.

The US Navy would have Taiwan as the fifth, unsinkable carrier, so, along with their aviation the US could even redeploy a number of Air Force squadrons on the island (which would become a support center overnight - Taiwanese train for this since forever, the way Israeli train against a surprise attack from their neighbours). All of this under a "dome" of AEGIS ships and Patriot batteries.

My best guess is that a modern war of this kind will be over in a matter of days, maybe even less. You can be sure that every time a Chinese SSN sails there is a Virginia-class US sub with a torpedo already aimed at her and someone with the finger on the red button. This is SOP for the area. Much has been said about these "faster-than-light carrier-sinking" missiles, but I'm still unconvinced. The best hope for China is to somehow achieve strategic surprise - and that would need someone really, really asleep on the bridge.

No, what worries me is the "stealthy" expansion currently underway in the South China Sea, with all these small islands and atolls being steadily converted into potential military bases by China. Every then and now someone worries about that, but not enough IMHO.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2021, 03:00:24 PM »
And just because I'm going for that Golden Asshole trophy.

https://twitter.com/elibremer/status/1427632616707088397

Take a good look, lads and lasses. Foreign policy success, right?

   I am in the camp that this is not Biden's "fault" as much as it is DC's fault.  Though Biden does shortsell his involvement with voting to go into afghanistan and the fact he was in the administration for 8 years where nothing was done to facilitate a withdrawal.  It was ALWAYS going to be a disaster on withdrawal.  I do not know if it would have been less with Trump.  Tearing the bandaid off hurts.  The afghani's were NEVER going to be able to hold off the Taliban, even if we were there for 100 years.  Call the Taliban what you like, but they are firm in their beliefs, the people support them over the government, and they are willing to die fighting for what they believe... Set against the "government" of afghanis, which seemed to be okay with raging corruption and banging 10 year old boys as well as selling or surrendering US armaments as fast as they could get them...well...

   You can train a chihuahua all you want to be an attack dog, but the first time it runs head long into a pitbull, its over.   The USA tried to make a chihuahua into a pitbull.  Waste of time, money, and human resources.  Literally making the earth a worse place to be.

oggsmash

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2021, 03:01:42 PM »
At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area. The message was clear.

The remaining question is "What happens if the war turns nuclear?" Rather worryingly, China is pursuing a nuclear buildup. It appears that they aim to reach parity with the US and Russia.

But a war for Taiwan will be an air and naval one. No troops on the ground (some could be deployed along the coast as deterrence). Of course the US and their allies could still fuck-up big time and one day wake up after China is already in Taiwan. It that case there will be nothing to do.

   Hey, there are never troops on the ground...till some asshat decides we need troops on the ground.  I also think the US Navy *could* create a one sided blood bath with China, however I think the chances of a US naval ship or plane firing on Chinese military forces is effectively zero.

Either the US, for some reason, decide that Taiwan is not worth the effort (cue: North Korea paying attention), or they will fire. There are no other avenues of action.

At least the premier of Taiwan is pushing back:

https://www.reuters.com/article/afghanistan-conflict-taiwan/taiwan-would-not-collapse-like-afghanistan-premier-says-idUSL4N2PO0VG
Quote from: Premier Su Tseng-chang
We also tell foreign forces who want to invade and grab Taiwan - don’t be deluded.

The key point, here, is merely technical: China hasn't the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan. Even if they build it (and I guess that they are improving, but honestly dunno) the U.S. Navy is pretty capable to engage and sink the Chinese Navy in the Strait of Taiwan. There isn't much that you can do against four aircraft carriers, and the US Navy conducted exercises aimed to show that they can deploy exactly that in the area.

You so sure about that given Chinese missile capability?  The US Navy is projecting power across a big distance whereas the Chinese are firing from their mainland or their littoral waters.  There's been some interesting talk about small, maneuverable green water fleets in the SCS versus the big WW2 style blue water fleets.  I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable making that bet if I was Taiwanese.

The US Navy would have Taiwan as the fifth, unsinkable carrier, so, along with their aviation the US could even redeploy a number of Air Force squadrons on the island (which would become a support center overnight - Taiwanese train for this since forever, the way Israeli train against a surprise attack from their neighbours). All of this under a "dome" of AEGIS ships and Patriot batteries.

My best guess is that a modern war of this kind will be over in a matter of days, maybe even less. You can be sure that every time a Chinese SSN sails there is a Virginia-class US sub with a torpedo already aimed at her and someone with the finger on the red button. This is SOP for the area. Much has been said about these "faster-than-light carrier-sinking" missiles, but I'm still unconvinced. The best hope for China is to somehow achieve strategic surprise - and that would need someone really, really asleep on the bridge.

No, what worries me is the "stealthy" expansion currently underway in the South China Sea, with all these small islands and atolls being steadily converted into potential military bases by China. Every then and now someone worries about that, but not enough IMHO.

   Your tactical assessment is sound.  However it all comes with the assumption the USA is willing to shoot.  They are not.  The "leaders" are heavily compromised.  China takes it without a shot from the USA if they are willing to do it.  Well I am editing to add...I should say they can attack without a shot from the USA, Taiwan will prove a VERY stiff test for China as I think the hate runs pretty deep, and occupying an openly hostile population is pretty damned hard to do, and that is IF you can get a foothold on land.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2021, 03:13:51 PM »
And just because I'm going for that Golden Asshole trophy.

https://twitter.com/elibremer/status/1427632616707088397

Take a good look, lads and lasses. Foreign policy success, right?

   I am in the camp that this is not Biden's "fault" as much as it is DC's fault.  Though Biden does shortsell his involvement with voting to go into afghanistan and the fact he was in the administration for 8 years where nothing was done to facilitate a withdrawal.  It was ALWAYS going to be a disaster on withdrawal.  I do not know if it would have been less with Trump.  Tearing the bandaid off hurts.  The afghani's were NEVER going to be able to hold off the Taliban, even if we were there for 100 years.  Call the Taliban what you like, but they are firm in their beliefs, the people support them over the government, and they are willing to die fighting for what they believe... Set against the "government" of afghanis, which seemed to be okay with raging corruption and banging 10 year old boys as well as selling or surrendering US armaments as fast as they could get them...well...

   You can train a chihuahua all you want to be an attack dog, but the first time it runs head long into a pitbull, its over.   The USA tried to make a chihuahua into a pitbull.  Waste of time, money, and human resources.  Literally making the earth a worse place to be.
I need to dig out his actual voting record, assuming the Dems haven't sealed it up like Obama's school records. I keep seeing people saying 'Biden was totally against invading Afghanistan!'.

You're not wrong though. Twenty years, a trillion dollars, and the Afghani army folded like a wet paper bag.

But I seriously fuckin' doubt the departure would've been as shambolic under, well, anyone else. Hell, even Carter couldn't have fucked this one so badly.

SonTodoGato

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Re: Biden's Presidency, all hail the Taliban!
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2021, 03:17:28 PM »
BTW, here's a nice ad for invisible college...



4444 days since the beginning of Desert Storm until the end of Iraqi Freedom, which ended 555 days after 9/11