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Author Topic: Biden's Cascade of Failure!  (Read 82302 times)

Shasarak

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2022, 05:08:11 PM »
The Biden family did not get paid the big bucks from Ukraine to just roll over and let Putin steal it from them.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2022, 05:16:07 PM »
The Biden family did not get paid the big bucks from Ukraine to just roll over and let Putin steal it from them.
What're they gonna do? Write harshly worded letters?

Let's be honest: between Mark 'White Rage!' Milley and the Afghanistan debacle, military morale is probably in the shitter. That doesn't even get into the imbecilic drive to purge any 'white supremacists' (read: anyone with non-leftist politics) in the ranks.

The left has been playing with the military as their social-engineering toy for a while, and it fucking shows what with massive deficits in training and equipment, particularly in maintenance.

I don't doubt that the Beltway would want to defend the Ukraine, if only to protect their precious rice bowls. But I doubt they can muster more than a token effort.

Shasarak

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2022, 05:56:30 PM »
The Biden family did not get paid the big bucks from Ukraine to just roll over and let Putin steal it from them.
What're they gonna do? Write harshly worded letters?

Let's be honest: between Mark 'White Rage!' Milley and the Afghanistan debacle, military morale is probably in the shitter. That doesn't even get into the imbecilic drive to purge any 'white supremacists' (read: anyone with non-leftist politics) in the ranks.

The left has been playing with the military as their social-engineering toy for a while, and it fucking shows what with massive deficits in training and equipment, particularly in maintenance.

I don't doubt that the Beltway would want to defend the Ukraine, if only to protect their precious rice bowls. But I doubt they can muster more than a token effort.

Please, the Military Industrial Complex is not going to waste this opportunity.

And who better to lead the bayonet charge then Silly Milley.
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SHARK

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2022, 06:50:33 PM »
Beyond that, Russia isn't Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, or Syria, or some other weak nation. They have all the toys! And, Russia has been training hard-core. Anyone that wants to provoke Russia into a war is fucking insane. Respect the treaties, respect their country, respect THEIR national security interests.

Peace can be maintained, but it requires America to acknowledge Russia as a partner, as an equal, and stop playing BS games and vilifying Russia like a bunch of third-graders.

Surely if we just let Putin invade the Ukraine, then he'll be appeased, and then peace will be maintained and he won't try anything more. That's how history works, right?

After all, our past leaders like JFK and Reagan have emphasized the importance of respecting Russia and treating them as a partner, rather than provoking them.

Seriously -

Pushing around weak countries like Syria and then kowtowing to China and/or Russia because they're strong is bullying and foolish. It promotes constant war and posturing. I've been opposed to most of our Middle East and other interventions, but I supported the Korean War and the Kuwait War because we cannot let "might makes right" be the rule of the world. Outright military invasion needs to be opposed by all countries of the world, and we should respect countries regardless of whether they are strong or weak. Who is our partner should be based on moral principles, not how strong they are.

Greetings!

That's all nice in theory, Jhkim, but the reality is that no one gives a fuck about morality. The rule of the day in the international sandbox is of course "Might Makes Right", just like it always has been. It has never been otherwise.

America operates by the same calculus, except we wear a furry glove and carry a cupcake. Underneath the soft, furry glove, however, has been a fist of steel. That fist of steel is everything in modern war, from Marines and Fleets, to airstrikes, cruise missiles, and full-scale war. It also includes "Colour Revolutions" and "Regime Changes". Sprinkle in economic sanctions, economic bribery with gold, technology, and weapons, as well as coups, assassinations, kidnappings, and the occasional group of death squads unleashed against political opponents in foreign countries, and the toy box is full and ready to go!

So, looking at reality, Ukraine belongs to Russia. Certainly moreso to Russia than to *us*. Ukraine is part of Russia's strategic national interests. Just like we would get hot if China allied with Mexico and started putting Chinese weapons and troops in Mexico. Well, Russia feels the same about Ukraine. You either accept that, or we are fucked. Russia is never going to tolerate us putting troops there. There is no negotiating. It's Russia's sphere of interest, and we need to shut the fuck up and mind our own business.

Disregarding these realities is likely to end very badly for us.

Contrary to US politicians bravado--it's all empty hot air, or like a tranny making a wet fart on the couch.

In recent years, US and NATO Generals have conducted exercises, studies, and wargames, projecting war against Russia.

NATO and the US get their asses blown out everytime by the Russians. So, who the fuck are we kidding? Unless you can unload 20 heavy Tank Divisions and 20 Infantry Divisions, backed up by 5,000 combat aircraft ready to go, it's all just a pathetic little game of a little dog yapping, thinking it can run with the Big Dogs. America is not in BIG DOG SHAPE, and neither is NATO.

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SHARK
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jhkim

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2022, 07:48:12 PM »
Surely if we just let Putin invade the Ukraine, then he'll be appeased, and then peace will be maintained and he won't try anything more. That's how history works, right?

After all, our past leaders like JFK and Reagan have emphasized the importance of respecting Russia and treating them as a partner, rather than provoking them.

Seriously -

Pushing around weak countries like Syria and then kowtowing to China and/or Russia because they're strong is bullying and foolish. It promotes constant war and posturing. I've been opposed to most of our Middle East and other interventions, but I supported the Korean War and the Kuwait War because we cannot let "might makes right" be the rule of the world. Outright military invasion needs to be opposed by all countries of the world, and we should respect countries regardless of whether they are strong or weak. Who is our partner should be based on moral principles, not how strong they are.

That's all nice in theory, Jhkim, but the reality is that no one gives a fuck about morality. The rule of the day in the international sandbox is of course "Might Makes Right", just like it always has been. It has never been otherwise.

America operates by the same calculus, except we wear a furry glove and carry a cupcake. Underneath the soft, furry glove, however, has been a fist of steel. That fist of steel is everything in modern war, from Marines and Fleets, to airstrikes, cruise missiles, and full-scale war. It also includes "Colour Revolutions" and "Regime Changes". Sprinkle in economic sanctions, economic bribery with gold, technology, and weapons, as well as coups, assassinations, kidnappings, and the occasional group of death squads unleashed against political opponents in foreign countries, and the toy box is full and ready to go!

So, looking at reality, Ukraine belongs to Russia. Certainly moreso to Russia than to *us*. Ukraine is part of Russia's strategic national interests. Just like we would get hot if China allied with Mexico and started putting Chinese weapons and troops in Mexico. Well, Russia feels the same about Ukraine. You either accept that, or we are fucked. Russia is never going to tolerate us putting troops there. There is no negotiating. It's Russia's sphere of interest, and we need to shut the fuck up and mind our own business.

Disregarding these realities is likely to end very badly for us.

By my view of history, this cynicism is exactly what has gotten us into the most trouble. In WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War, we had a clear moral mandate - and those were also the modern wars that ended the best for us.

The modern wars that have ended badly are the ones where we ignored morality, and we discovered that simply militarily invading a country does not make it ours. The Philippines, Cuba, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan all turned into quagmires while by contrast, Germany, Japan, South Korea, and Kuwait have all turned out fine and remain U.S. allies.

Ukraine doesn't belong to the U.S. and it also doesn't belong to Russia. It belongs to the Ukrainians.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2022, 08:47:42 PM »
Ukraine doesn't belong to the U.S. and it also doesn't belong to Russia. It belongs to the Ukrainians.

I agree. But if Russia takes a big, wet bite out of the Ukraine, what do we do? Make the "Shame" finger sign at the Russians and hope they stop there?
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jhkim

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2022, 10:10:27 PM »
Ukraine doesn't belong to the U.S. and it also doesn't belong to Russia. It belongs to the Ukrainians.

I agree. But if Russia takes a big, wet bite out of the Ukraine, what do we do? Make the "Shame" finger sign at the Russians and hope they stop there?

I'd think the most direct historical precedent would be when Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979. Today, that is generally considered an even bigger disaster for the Russians than Vietnam was for the Americans. I think we should look at what we did then, and learn from what worked and what didn't. There was immediate condemnation of the invasion via the U.N., and the U.S. and allies funded a lot of mujahideen and support via Pakistan. We mobilized a lot of worldwide support, and the ongoing conflict was disastrous for the Russians.

As for mistakes - obviously, in retrospect training and funding Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda to fight the Russians was a bad idea -- so while I think we should fund Ukrainian resistance, we should be very selective about who we are arming. Ukraine is a different case, but I think there would still be a major resistance element - like the French resistance in WWII.

SHARK

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2022, 10:46:48 PM »
Surely if we just let Putin invade the Ukraine, then he'll be appeased, and then peace will be maintained and he won't try anything more. That's how history works, right?

After all, our past leaders like JFK and Reagan have emphasized the importance of respecting Russia and treating them as a partner, rather than provoking them.

Seriously -

Pushing around weak countries like Syria and then kowtowing to China and/or Russia because they're strong is bullying and foolish. It promotes constant war and posturing. I've been opposed to most of our Middle East and other interventions, but I supported the Korean War and the Kuwait War because we cannot let "might makes right" be the rule of the world. Outright military invasion needs to be opposed by all countries of the world, and we should respect countries regardless of whether they are strong or weak. Who is our partner should be based on moral principles, not how strong they are.

That's all nice in theory, Jhkim, but the reality is that no one gives a fuck about morality. The rule of the day in the international sandbox is of course "Might Makes Right", just like it always has been. It has never been otherwise.

America operates by the same calculus, except we wear a furry glove and carry a cupcake. Underneath the soft, furry glove, however, has been a fist of steel. That fist of steel is everything in modern war, from Marines and Fleets, to airstrikes, cruise missiles, and full-scale war. It also includes "Colour Revolutions" and "Regime Changes". Sprinkle in economic sanctions, economic bribery with gold, technology, and weapons, as well as coups, assassinations, kidnappings, and the occasional group of death squads unleashed against political opponents in foreign countries, and the toy box is full and ready to go!

So, looking at reality, Ukraine belongs to Russia. Certainly moreso to Russia than to *us*. Ukraine is part of Russia's strategic national interests. Just like we would get hot if China allied with Mexico and started putting Chinese weapons and troops in Mexico. Well, Russia feels the same about Ukraine. You either accept that, or we are fucked. Russia is never going to tolerate us putting troops there. There is no negotiating. It's Russia's sphere of interest, and we need to shut the fuck up and mind our own business.

Disregarding these realities is likely to end very badly for us.

By my view of history, this cynicism is exactly what has gotten us into the most trouble. In WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War, we had a clear moral mandate - and those were also the modern wars that ended the best for us.

The modern wars that have ended badly are the ones where we ignored morality, and we discovered that simply militarily invading a country does not make it ours. The Philippines, Cuba, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan all turned into quagmires while by contrast, Germany, Japan, South Korea, and Kuwait have all turned out fine and remain U.S. allies.

Ukraine doesn't belong to the U.S. and it also doesn't belong to Russia. It belongs to the Ukrainians.

Greetings!

Ukraine doesn't belong to Russia?

Since when?

Look at a map of8th Century Russia. 10th Century. 12th Century. and on and fucking on for 1500 hundred years. The Ukraine region has always been part of Russia.

Beyond some recent political shuffling, whatever kind of relationship politically between Russia and Ukraine is between them. Ukraine is still part of national security for Russia though, just like many small countries are to larger countries. Mexico, most of South America, doesn't do whatever the fuck they want--or face immediate takeover by the United States. Same thing with Ireland and Scotland, in regards to Britain. That's just geopolitical reality, and no crying about national sovereignty is ever going to change any of it.

Ultimately, because it is Russia's front yard, we had better care about what THEY think, because they have 300 divisions that can make us care.

In any kind of conflict in Ukraine, Russia holds all of the advantages. It isn't anything at all like Afghanistan. Uraine has roads and highways and infrastructure. You know that lots of Russians have relatives living in Ukraine, right? Everyone speaks Russian and Ukrainian. Russia *built* everything in Ukraine. They have all the maps. The Russians know everything about Ukraine.

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SHARK
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jhkim

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2022, 11:34:08 PM »
Ukraine is still part of national security for Russia though, just like many small countries are to larger countries. Mexico, most of South America, doesn't do whatever the fuck they want--or face immediate takeover by the United States. Same thing with Ireland and Scotland, in regards to Britain. That's just geopolitical reality, and no crying about national sovereignty is ever going to change any of it.

So, in your mind, Ireland just lays down and does whatever Britain wants?!? That is quite different from my reading of history. As I see it, Ireland was a huge thorn in the side of Britain for ages, despite their shared history and proximity.

I also don't see Latin America as particularly obedient to the U.S. We can embargo the most extreme cases (Cuba and Venezuela, currently) -- but much of Latin America is at least moderately socialist and lukewarm at best in U.S. relations.

SHARK

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2022, 12:35:50 AM »
Ukraine is still part of national security for Russia though, just like many small countries are to larger countries. Mexico, most of South America, doesn't do whatever the fuck they want--or face immediate takeover by the United States. Same thing with Ireland and Scotland, in regards to Britain. That's just geopolitical reality, and no crying about national sovereignty is ever going to change any of it.

So, in your mind, Ireland just lays down and does whatever Britain wants?!? That is quite different from my reading of history. As I see it, Ireland was a huge thorn in the side of Britain for ages, despite their shared history and proximity.

I also don't see Latin America as particularly obedient to the U.S. We can embargo the most extreme cases (Cuba and Venezuela, currently) -- but much of Latin America is at least moderately socialist and lukewarm at best in U.S. relations.

Greetings!

*Sigh* NO, Jhkim. Are you really this obtuse about geopolitics? *Internally* Ireland, Mexico, et. al. do whatever they want. *Externally* however, is an entirely different proposition. The Monroe Doctrine makes this reality crystal clear, and everyone in South America knows this. If they were to start flirting with foreign powers and hosting bases and troops--they would be overthrown in a blink. Same kind of thing goes for Ireland and Scotland. It's about basic survival and security of a nation, Jhkim. That trumps any kind of absolute sovereignty of a smaller, but critically located country. This is basic stuff you learn about in Balance of Powers, Great Nations Theory, and International Relations. Countries have been operating under these understandings and conditions for centuries. It's a political reality that is inviolable, unless you want a hot war really fast, and to see just what larger powers--even democracies!--are capable of doing when their real vital interests are threatened. Exactly, on these issues, there simply is no negotiation. It's a Fait Accompli.

So, when understanding geography and geopolitics, and the true power possessed by Great Powers, yeah, Ukraine is a vital national security interest of Russia. We would be wise to respect Russia, and let Russia and Ukraine handle their own relationship.

The ink isn't even dry on the paperwork getting us out of Afghanistan, and these political clowns here in America can't wait to get us into a shooting war with the RUSSIANS. Absolute stupidity. America is in no condition to be fighting a war anywhere. Our military is pumped full of SJW shit, and is a shambles. Equipment, training, efficiency--all have suffered huge scandals in recent years. AND--US and NATO studies have shown we would lose BIG against Russia in any conflict. Our economy is shit, too. Fuck, we can't even unfuck the "Supply Chain Crisis" properly.

We need to mind our own fucking business.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 01:51:43 AM by SHARK »
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Shasarak

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2022, 01:11:57 AM »
Ukraine doesn't belong to the U.S. and it also doesn't belong to Russia. It belongs to the Ukrainians.

Everyone knows that there is one monolithic Ukrainian people that speak and move with one purpose.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2022, 08:51:33 AM »
You know WHY, of course, there's so much interest in Ukraine here.

And it's got nothing to do with national security, or any kind of treaty for that matter.

Arkansan

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2022, 01:06:32 PM »
Just my personal opinion, but I think we've had enough pointless cluster fucks in the past 50 years. I'm sympathetic to the plight of Ukrainians caught up in this mess but I'd rather the US stay right the hell out of it. Growing up in a military town I saw a few people I knew come home in body bags in the "War on Terror" and a few more suffer life altering injuries. I'd rather not run the risk of seeing anymore get shipped home in pieces from being on the other end of Russian artillery.

Ukraine and the other old Warsaw pact states are Russia's proverbial back yard. They aren't going to let go of this issue and we've run NATO right up their asses in the past three decades. Yes they want their old sphere of influence back but security is also a concern, hell we'd react pretty strongly as well if they were talking about making Mexico a member of the CTSO and stationing alliance forces there.

I'm tired of the global hegemony games. Time to sit this shit out. Though in all fairness I'm largely an isolationist on military policy.

jhkim

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #103 on: January 22, 2022, 01:56:47 PM »
Ukraine and the other old Warsaw pact states are Russia's proverbial back yard. They aren't going to let go of this issue and we've run NATO right up their asses in the past three decades. Yes they want their old sphere of influence back but security is also a concern, hell we'd react pretty strongly as well if they were talking about making Mexico a member of the CTSO and stationing alliance forces there.

This isn't theoretical. Russia had a close alliance with Cuba, which is right on our doorstep. Our dividing line there was that we wouldn't let Russia put nuclear missiles in Cuba -- but we didn't all-out invade Cuba just because they allied with Russia. Ukraine remains committed to being non-nuclear, though - it is one of four countries that voluntarily gave up nuclear armament. The U.S. tried all sorts of ways to undermine Cuba, including the Bay of Pigs - but we stopped short of invasion by the U.S. military or threat thereof.

I'm tired of the global hegemony games. Time to sit this shit out. Though in all fairness I'm largely an isolationist on military policy.

I consider myself largely isolationist. I opposed the vast majority of our modern wars - in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Somalia, Iraq, Libya, and others. However, I supported WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War -- because we should not allow outright invasion to be how the world works.

Appeasement is bad policy, and will cost us in the long run. Once Russia sees that it can invade with impunity, and the U.S. and others don't do anything about it, then they're motivated to try again, because it's clear that flexing their military gets them what they want.

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Re: Biden's Cascade of Failure!
« Reply #104 on: January 22, 2022, 03:27:28 PM »
I consider myself largely isolationist. I opposed the vast majority of our modern wars - in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Somalia, Iraq, Libya, and others. However, I supported WWII, the Korean War, and the Kuwait War -- because we should not allow outright invasion to be how the world works.
You know what's a much worse problem? Foreign aid for "humanitarian" reasons. Which never goes to help the people who need it, but does prop up the nightmarish dictatorships that caused the problem in the first place.

I'm a big fan of more invasions and less status quo, because the status quo has at least as horrific a track record, but the sense of outrage is missing, so we end up with decades of horrors.