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Author Topic: Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship  (Read 2848 times)

Alathon
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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2019, 08:10:20 PM »
Quote from: Brendan;1109914
The "New Right" was a promising counter movement at first, but degenerated into the "Alt-Right" as an explicitly racist and neo-Fascist ideology.  Part of this was due to their own internal failings and part of it was a hit job by the mainstream media.  They have largely since split into three factions - the "alt light" which bought a ticket on the "Trump train".  The "alt-white", which retreated to their enclaves of racial idiocy - I mean "purity" and what I call the "alt-Christ", which seem to think that if we all just found "jeebus" our problems would be solved.  They seem to forget that all these problems arose during the rule of the "sign of the cross".  If the later group is willing to jettison its lingering attachment to the "alt-white" (there's a fair amount of cross over) and accept an alliance of convenience with the libertarians and the Trumpians, they could lend some important cultural and spiritual gravitas to a new Western elite.  On the other hand, they are equally likely to shit the bed by screeching about heretics and sin and fucking it up for everyone else.

There's also accelerationism, which can reasonably be expected to function as long as those acting are willing to pay the price in lives ruined and lost.  Brenton Tarrant got most of the response he stated he desired through his terrorist act, and lots of people noticed, the Saint Tarrant memes are still around.  The accelerationist  logic -- that normies will not fight for anything until they've had their comfortable hedonistic status quo removed -- is more or less sound.  Since the 'alt-white' expects to lose everything it values in the next several decades, they can in turn be predicted to use extreme measures even with a low percentage chance of success, because their current trend is abject failure and the rejection of their values.

Shasarak

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2019, 08:40:23 PM »
Quote from: Alathon;1110064
There's also accelerationism, which can reasonably be expected to function as long as those acting are willing to pay the price in lives ruined and lost.  Loonie McLoonface got most of the response he stated he desired through his terrorist act, and lots of people noticed, the Saint Loonie memes are still around.  The accelerationist  logic -- that normies will not fight for anything until they've had their comfortable hedonistic status quo removed -- is more or less sound.  Since the 'alt-white' expects to lose everything it values in the next several decades, they can in turn be predicted to use extreme measures even with a low percentage chance of success, because their current trend is abject failure and the rejection of their values.

Did the Loonster get what he wanted?  I cant say that I have noticed anything here in NZ, other then the expected anti-gun laws and now our government wants to pass more anti-terrorist laws.

We got more problems with the weirdos who buy into the Planetary Extinction then anything else.
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Brendan

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2019, 09:05:35 PM »
Quote from: Alathon;1110064
There's also accelerationism, which can reasonably be expected to function as long as those acting are willing to pay the price in lives ruined and lost.  Brenton Tarrant got most of the response he stated he desired through his terrorist act, and lots of people noticed, the Saint Tarrant memes are still around.  The accelerationist  logic -- that normies will not fight for anything until they've had their comfortable hedonistic status quo removed -- is more or less sound.  Since the 'alt-white' expects to lose everything it values in the next several decades, they can in turn be predicted to use extreme measures even with a low percentage chance of success, because their current trend is abject failure and the rejection of their values.

Would you call accelerationism a distinct ideology though, or a tactic?

Alathon
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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2019, 09:19:31 PM »
Quote from: Brendan;1110069
Would you call accelerationism a distinct ideology though, or a tactic?

It is both; it is a tactic which can be applied to many ideologies, but it is also such a defining tactic that it can become a revolutionary ideology ("the fix is in, the only solution is to flip the table").  Because it demands a specific type of person, those willing to murder (preferably, those who crave violence and will murder repeatedly), if it is adopted it must necessarily result in whatever movement adopted it adding such people to their ranks.   Because such people warp any organization they are part of towards their goals, if an organization goes all-in on revolutionary methods, said organization can be expected to become revolutionary in nature, requiring new reasons for revolutionary action as old reasons are exhausted.

Alathon
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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2019, 09:31:02 PM »
Quote from: Shasarak;1110066
Did the Loonster get what he wanted?  I cant say that I have noticed anything here in NZ, other then the expected anti-gun laws and now our government wants to pass more anti-terrorist laws.

We got more problems with the weirdos who buy into the Planetary Extinction then anything else.

His stated goals included more stringent gun laws in western nations in general, mainly with the goal of aiding anti-gun advocates in the United States, in hopes of helping them force American gun owners to into violent conflict with our anti-gun coastal establishment.  Other stated goals included killing a bunch of invaders, recording the act and disseminating it as proof that 'anyone can do it', dying without killing any NZ cops, or turning himself in for trial and pleading that he was a partisan and lawful combatant, with hopes of being released from prison after the revolution in around twenty-seven years, like Nelson Mandela.

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2019, 03:48:00 AM »
Quote from: Brad;1109889
So far, just one, and it's a Turk...

https://twitter.com/EnesKanter

So basically, a guy who has actually been oppressed speaks out against China, but the dudes who live in a free society won't condemn China. Makes a lot of sense to me!


Thank you Brad!! Enes Kanter is amazing. His Twitter page is rather shocking. I had no idea he was banned in his home country and his family is suffering persecution, and in the face of that, he stands for Freedom and Democracy without compromise. Kudos to Enes!


Quote from: Brendan;1109957
To bring this back around the OP, I'm trying to point at the fact that the Silicon Valley types aren't just another kind of business, but an emerging political power group.  They have their own tastes and goals for society, and they are willing to make an alliance with China to make those goals a reality.  Some of that is probably just cold hard economics, but I suspect some of it is also a fundamental world-view compatibility.  China has already shown a willingness or even an eagerness for the kind of management style that the western technocrats envision as the framework of a "Brave New World".   Each side no doubt thinks that they'll have the upper hand in the relationship.


This certainly seems to be true regarding the social media moguls, and I have no doubt these fools believe they will gain the upper hand on China once they sell out our country. They will discover they were quite wrong, but it will be too late to undo the damage.


Quote from: tenbones;1109985
I'm actually starting to fool around with AI here at work (Microsoft's Azure) and the shit it is capable of doing is jaw-dropping.


Ditto. We're using AWS and its scary how quickly AI is improving. We're doing models in a few hours that took us days just a year ago. As a garage startup, we're achieving think tank goals and I've gotten to glimpse the AI tools being used by a couple big players and the results are astounding.

Everyone worldwide needs to understand that we're playing with a new form of fire with AI. It's truly fire because its got amazing positive uses that could wildly advance our civilization, or be used to torch everything we value to cinders.


Quote from: tenbones;1109985
The ethical and moral ramifications of this is terrifying.


What tenbones is saying may sounds like hyperbole, but it really isn't. AI and machine learning isn't a stepping stone like "hey we can turn desktops into laptops" or "now the internet has videos". It's an evolutionary leap in technology. It's not any exaggeration to say we've left the Internet Age and entered the Machine Learning Age as a new tech level.

Mordred Pendragon

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2019, 08:42:43 AM »
Quote from: Alathon;1110075
His stated goals included more stringent gun laws in western nations in general, mainly with the goal of aiding anti-gun advocates in the United States, in hopes of helping them force American gun owners to into violent conflict with our anti-gun coastal establishment.  Other stated goals included killing a bunch of invaders, recording the act and disseminating it as proof that 'anyone can do it', dying without killing any NZ cops, or turning himself in for trial and pleading that he was a partisan and lawful combatant, with hopes of being released from prison after the revolution in around twenty-seven years, like Nelson Mandela.

Dude, are you seriously defending Brenton Tarrant? The fuck is wrong with you?

Seriously, Alathon. I may be bisexual but you're a fucking faggot.
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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2019, 12:30:08 PM »
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1110153
Dude, are you seriously defending Brenton Tarrant? The fuck is wrong with you?

Seriously, Alathon. I may be bisexual but you're a fucking faggot.

Explaining his goals isn't the same as defending the loon. Calm down take a deep breath and read carefully.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Mordred Pendragon

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« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2019, 12:49:55 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1110227
Explaining his goals isn't the same as defending the loon. Calm down take a deep breath and read carefully.

I'm not sure you're familiar with Alathon. The guy is a self-identified White Nationalist.
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Brendan

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2019, 01:39:28 PM »
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1110233
I'm not sure you're familiar with Alathon. The guy is a self-identified White Nationalist.

To be clear:

I don't approve of "accelerationism" in its violent aspects at all (this is just a fancy way of saying "terrorism"), and (((I))) most certainly wouldn't be welcome in a "White Nationalist" ethno-state.   Pace Ayn Rand, I consider racialism the worst and lowest form of collectivism.  What remains of the "alt-right" are a bunch of losers flailing around incompetently.  They're mostly useful as an object lesson in what NOT to do.  (Aside: If you haven't read Michael Malice's book on the New Right, you really should.  The audio book is even better as he reads it himself and does voice impressions).

I'm probably guilty of going too far into the weeds of the problems on the right, which are germane to your post only in so much as they help explain the current situation vis a vis digital censorship and China.  The point I was trying to drive at is that we're witnessing not just an example of some tech companies valuing Chinese money over Western freedom, or the "late stage of capitalism" or whatever, but rather a shift in the currents of social and political power that run through American society.

Pace Burnham, when a new group of potential elites arise the old elites either have to absorb them, or crush them.  To some extent, they do both at the same time.  Some of the new elites will be absorbed and a few will get left behind.  This can be a good thing, in that it prevents the society from fracturing and provides fresh blood to an elite grown stale and out of touch.  It can also be a bad thing, as the new elite and the old elite further entrench their position above the hoi polloi and the worst traits of both groups come to the fore.  I think we're seeing something like that happen before our eyes.


Quote from: Spinachcat;1110128
This certainly seems to be true regarding the social media moguls, and I have no doubt these fools believe they will gain the upper hand on China once they sell out our country. They will discover they were quite wrong, but it will be too late to undo the damage.

What tenbones is saying may sounds like hyperbole, but it really isn't. AI and machine learning isn't a stepping stone like "hey we can turn desktops into laptops" or "now the internet has videos". It's an evolutionary leap in technology. It's not any exaggeration to say we've left the Internet Age and entered the Machine Learning Age as a new tech level.

Yeah.  An arrogant belief in their own innate genius and ability to outsmart everyone else in the room is a hall-mark technocrat trait.  China speaks their language of tech / business in a way that Washington does not.  I'm not particularly afraid of AI per se, because I understand that AI is just a list of weighted instructions some hack programmers pieced together.  I am, however, worried about what people will do with it or the power they will turn over to an overgrown abacus.    

For example, the idea of an AI determined "social credit score" or Yang's guaranteed universal basic income are great examples of technocrat "solutions" to what they perceive as "inefficiencies" in the current systems.  They don't understand that what they perceive as "inefficiencies" are what make the current systems in any way livable.  They don't worry about downstream irreversible consequences because, hey, we'll just tweak it as we go / "release another patch".  

They also think everyone else is a nice polite upper middle class person like they are.  They're sheltered from anything like real violence and are in for a rude awakening when the Chinese take off the nice smiling business-man mask and start cracking the whip - if that hasn't started to happen already.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 01:52:05 PM by Brendan »

jhkim

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2019, 01:59:21 PM »
Quote from: Alathon;1110064
There's also accelerationism, which can reasonably be expected to function as long as those acting are willing to pay the price in lives ruined and lost.  Brenton Tarrant got most of the response he stated he desired through his terrorist act, and lots of people noticed, the Saint Tarrant memes are still around.  The accelerationist  logic -- that normies will not fight for anything until they've had their comfortable hedonistic status quo removed -- is more or less sound.  Since the 'alt-white' expects to lose everything it values in the next several decades, they can in turn be predicted to use extreme measures even with a low percentage chance of success, because their current trend is abject failure and the rejection of their values.
Quote from: Brendan;1110238
I don't approve of "accelerationism" in its violent aspects at all (this is just a fancy way of saying "terrorism"), and (((I))) most certainly wouldn't be welcome in a "White Nationalist" ethno-state.   Pace Ayn Rand, I consider racialism the worst and lowest form of collectivism.  What remains of the "alt-right" are a bunch of losers flailing around incompetently.  They're mostly useful as an object lesson in what NOT to do.
I agree with Brendan here and disagree with Alathon. The accelerationist logic is not "more or less sound" -- it is fundamentally flawed and immoral.

If the "alt-white" values are lost under free speech and democracy -- and I hope they do -- then it's because they deserve to be lost. Many values deserve to be kicked into the ashbin of history, and the best way to determine those values is through the free market of ideas. Encouraging violence rather than dialog is wrong.

Brendan

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2019, 02:24:54 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1110242
I agree with Brendan here and disagree with Alathon. The accelerationist logic is not "more or less sound" -- it is fundamentally flawed and immoral.

If the "alt-white" values are lost under free speech and democracy -- and I hope they do -- then it's because they deserve to be lost. Many values deserve to be kicked into the ashbin of history, and the best way to determine those values is through the free market of ideas. Encouraging violence rather than dialog is wrong.


Thanks.  

An old mentor of mine, who came from a hard left background, used to call this "heightening the contradictions".  I think it was something he took from Alinsky.  He tried this tactic in the small organization we were a part of, and it blew up (proverbially) in our faces.  I came to realize it was fatally flawed in several ways:

1) Assuming the existing system is destined to fail because it doesn't match our theories about how society "aught" to function is a horrible example of wishful thinking and ignorance of history.  Even assuming your theories about society are right, and the regime you live under is unjust, plenty of "unjust" societies have had long runs in history.  The Roman Empire survived hundreds of years after the death of Caligula.  The House of Saud took power in 1744 and still rules today.

2) Throwing a spanner into the works of a society, in the hopes that it will grind to a halt, could in fact strengthen the very thing you want to overthrow.  Most people view their lot in life as "normal" and will band together to prevent the loss of their lively-hoods or dangers to their children.  By "playing the villain", regardless of your supposed "greater good" you may end up uniting a shake and fractious political unity against what they perceive to be a common enemy.

3) Even assuming you can "win", then what?  All these "viva la revolution" idiots think they can ride that dragon once they call it up, but revolution means violence and violence has no master.  You could be the most bad-ass survivalist on the planet, get a tooth infection and die because you can't make it to a dentist.  Whatever order comes to dominate after the chaos may be far WORSE than the order prior to it.

4) Any supposed "goals" of the accelerationists might just be cover for nihilistic and self-destructive impulses.  At the very least it is difficult, if not impossible, to screen these people out of a movement that has dedicated itself to the tactic of violence.  They need people willing to destroy their own lives in pursuit of the group's goals, but people like this work badly in groups and can't be controlled.

Alathon
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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2019, 03:25:39 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;1110242
I agree with Brendan here and disagree with Alathon. The accelerationist logic is not "more or less sound" -- it is fundamentally flawed and immoral.

If the "alt-white" values are lost under free speech and democracy -- and I hope they do -- then it's because they deserve to be lost. Many values deserve to be kicked into the ashbin of history, and the best way to determine those values is through the free market of ideas. Encouraging violence rather than dialog is wrong.

Ahh, the 'free market of ideas'... except the ones leftists decide are racist, or sexist, or islamaphobic, or transphobic, or pedophobic, or whatever new word they've come up with this month.  Enforced through harassment of employers to beggar the speech criminal, shaming in mass-media that reaches tens of millions, shadowbanning and account deletion on the largest media platforms, and good old fashioned Marxist-Leninist violence by masked antifa thugs.

People facing that sort of coercion aren't going to worry about whether their oppressors think they are moral.

Brendan

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2019, 03:45:49 PM »
Quote from: Alathon;1110261
Ahh, the 'free market of ideas'... except the ones leftists decide are racist, or sexist, or islamaphobic, or transphobic, or pedophobic, or whatever new word they've come up with this month.  Enforced through harassment of employers to beggar the speech criminal, shaming in mass-media that reaches tens of millions, shadowbanning and account deletion on the largest media platforms, and good old fashioned Marxist-Leninist violence by masked antifa thugs.

People facing that sort of coercion aren't going to worry about whether their oppressors think they are moral.

Let's be clear here.  We're talking about initiating violence against innocent people in order to cause a chain reaction to that will, somehow, eventually, lead to the creation of a different political system.  No one is arguing in favor of harassment, shadow banning, account deletion or left-wing violence, but we're not going to pretend this justifies fucking MURDER.

I notice that you didn't deny the charge that you are, yourself, a white-nationalist; and that your introduction of the topic of the NZ shooter may not have been entirely a dispassionate intellectual dissection but might also include some measure of approval.  Would you care to clear any of that up?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 03:51:38 PM by Brendan »

Mordred Pendragon

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Beijing Delenda Est: A Criticism of the CCP, Silicon Valley, and Censorship
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2019, 04:13:38 PM »
Quote from: Alathon;1110261
Ahh, the 'free market of ideas'... except the ones leftists decide are racist, or sexist, or islamaphobic, or transphobic, or pedophobic, or whatever new word they've come up with this month.  Enforced through harassment of employers to beggar the speech criminal, shaming in mass-media that reaches tens of millions, shadowbanning and account deletion on the largest media platforms, and good old fashioned Marxist-Leninist violence by masked antifa thugs.

People facing that sort of coercion aren't going to worry about whether their oppressors think they are moral.

I hate Antifa more than you can imagine, but the alternative you're proposing is every bit as bad.

Also, I'm still laughing my ass off at the fact that you claim to be a Christian, yet you are still a White Nationalist.

Christianity and White Nationalism are completely incompatible.

Aside from its Jewish roots in the Middle East and the fact that Jesus was a Jew from the Levant, there's also the fact that Christianity is built on the foundation that all peoples of the world are equal in the eyes of God and that the word of Christ must be taught across the world to all the peoples.

Seriously, do you even read the Bible?

Also, a lot of your Nazi idols hated Christianity for the exact same reasons I outlined.

Heinrich Himmler wanted to replace it with a Nazi version of Germanic Paganism, Joseph Goebbels and Alfred Rosenberg wanted to implement a form of State Atheism similar to what was seen in the Soviet Union under Lenin, and Martin Bormann was an avowed theistic Satanist.

Hitler himself was agnostic and only saw propaganda value in the Catholic and Lutheran churches, as they were already entrenched in Germany at the time. Also, Hitler was a major Islamophile and was obsessed with Islam and the ancient cultures of Persia and India.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 04:17:20 PM by Doc Sammy »
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