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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Mistwell on May 24, 2022, 03:36:29 PM

Title: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 24, 2022, 03:36:29 PM
So somehow this isn't being discussed in the news much? And assassination Plot on President W. Bush by ISIS, using the asylum system and crossing from the Mexican border. Caught by the FBI.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-24/plot-to-kill-bush-in-revenge-for-iraq-war-was-foiled-fbi-says
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: I on May 25, 2022, 01:57:24 AM
Of course it's not in the news much.  No Leftist narrative to be helped by shining light on it.  Reporting it would remind people that (1) lots of Muslims are not peaceful people, they want all non-Muslims converted or dead, and (2) we have a serious problem with illegal immigration, one which is being abetted by the Biden Administration, Democrats and to a certain extent, Neocons (like George W. Bush, ironically).  While many liberals will deny that criminals come across the Mexican border, I think they really don't believe that and honestly just figure it's the price to be paid in order to achieve their Utopia, much as gun owners like myself hate school shootings but we figure that's the price to be paid for having a Second Amendment.  Of course, we have a Constitutional right to gun ownership while foreigners have no right at all to just waltz into our country unchallenged, which is an important distinction.

On a somewhat related note, if that had been somebody out to assassinate Trump instead of Bush, I'm pretty sure the FBI wouldn't have done jack shit.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Spinachcat on May 25, 2022, 02:56:01 AM
Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on May 25, 2022, 06:32:03 AM
 I suspect it was a plot created by the FBI and recruited a few saps from overseas with online communications.  That is about the only way those ass hats catch anyone before the fact.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on May 25, 2022, 06:37:14 AM
  After reading...it seemed a VERY long time paid FBI informant (aka life long felon) was the guy the main culprit "shared" a plot with.  Seems to me I was right, and some informant who was paid to find things (aka instigate) was successful in doing so. 
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on May 25, 2022, 07:35:31 AM
  After reading...it seemed a VERY long time paid FBI informant (aka life long felon) was the guy the main culprit "shared" a plot with.  Seems to me I was right, and some informant who was paid to find things (aka instigate) was successful in doing so.

As is typical. None of these assholes practices good OPSEC.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Sanson on May 25, 2022, 07:39:45 AM
I assumed they only put that story out to cover up Bush's inability to differentiate the Ukraine and Iraq at the podium the other day. 
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 25, 2022, 10:12:08 AM
Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

Given everyone appears to be collectively ignoring this news, I don't think it's a play to get anything to happen.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 25, 2022, 10:13:25 AM
I assumed they only put that story out to cover up Bush's inability to differentiate the Ukraine and Iraq at the podium the other day.

That story had also already blown over by the time this news broke so that doesn't make sense either
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: I on May 25, 2022, 11:32:16 AM
Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

I think it's just that they never forgive and never forget.  These people are still bent out of shape about the Reconquista, remember.  I agree that they should be grateful to Bush really, but they don't see it that way.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on May 28, 2022, 09:39:26 AM
So they can manage to "foil a plot" that they themselves encouraged, but can't fucking manage to prevent nutjobs  already known to them from shooting up schools.  In almost *every* case, assassin and terrorist plots proceeded because ineffectual suspects were given encouragement and material aid by federal law enforcement.

Government and police won't protect us from threats. We have to protect each other.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Chris24601 on May 28, 2022, 09:57:47 AM
Government and police won't protect us from threats. We have to protect each other.
Welcome to the origins of Medieval feudalism. The central Roman government could no longer protect its population so the population made pacts with those capable of doing so. They would give resources to the “Werd” (common root of both Lord and Guard) and in return they would protect that community from bandits and other plunderers.

Over time it picked up less desirable cruft… going from best man for the job to hereditary by primogeniture… going from a mutual pact between parties (i.e. the non-warriors producing food and equipment were just as important as the warriors who protected them in terms of keeping things functioning) to one of rulers and subjects… from King as “head of a kin group” to King as distant unrelated ruler… etc.

That cruft was what out ancestors in the United States eventually rebelled against and tried to establish something closer to those older mutual bonds… only now those have cruft on them too that we’ll probably need a new compact of mutual bonds to actually restore and, over the course of a few more centuries will accrue cruft of its own.

Such is the life cycle of civilizations.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on May 28, 2022, 10:08:08 AM
Government and police won't protect us from threats. We have to protect each other.
Welcome to the origins of Medieval feudalism. The central Roman government could no longer protect its population so the population made pacts with those capable of doing so. They would give resources to the “Werd” (common root of both Lord and Guard) and in return they would protect that community from bandits and other plunderers.

Over time it picked up less desirable cruft… going from best man for the job to hereditary by primogeniture… going from a mutual pact between parties (i.e. the non-warriors producing food and equipment were just as important as the warriors who protected them in terms of keeping things functioning) to one of rulers and subjects… from King as “head of a kin group” to King as distant unrelated ruler… etc.

That cruft was what out ancestors in the United States eventually rebelled against and tried to establish something closer to those older mutual bonds… only now those have cruft on them too that we’ll probably need a new compact of mutual bonds to actually restore and, over the course of a few more centuries will accrue cruft of its own.

Such is the life cycle of civilizations.

The US is exactly the same as the Roman Empire right before it's fall.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on May 28, 2022, 12:37:06 PM
So they can manage to "foil a plot" that they themselves encouraged, but can't fucking manage to prevent nutjobs  already known to them from shooting up schools.  In almost *every* case, assassin and terrorist plots proceeded because ineffectual suspects were given encouragement and material aid by federal law enforcement.

Government and police won't protect us from threats. We have to protect each other.

  The most recent couple of nutjobs....I would LOVE to see the chats they had online and how many of the folks they were chatting to have federal government ip's.  Looks like a turd in the punch bowl to me.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: HappyDaze on May 28, 2022, 12:43:19 PM
Government and police won't protect us from threats. We have to protect each other.
Welcome to the origins of Medieval feudalism. The central Roman government could no longer protect its population so the population made pacts with those capable of doing so. They would give resources to the “Werd” (common root of both Lord and Guard) and in return they would protect that community from bandits and other plunderers.

Over time it picked up less desirable cruft… going from best man for the job to hereditary by primogeniture… going from a mutual pact between parties (i.e. the non-warriors producing food and equipment were just as important as the warriors who protected them in terms of keeping things functioning) to one of rulers and subjects… from King as “head of a kin group” to King as distant unrelated ruler… etc.

That cruft was what out ancestors in the United States eventually rebelled against and tried to establish something closer to those older mutual bonds… only now those have cruft on them too that we’ll probably need a new compact of mutual bonds to actually restore and, over the course of a few more centuries will accrue cruft of its own.

Such is the life cycle of civilizations.

The US is exactly the same as the Roman Empire right before it's fall.
I see you too post in Shasarak's sarcastic black font.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: VisionStorm on May 28, 2022, 08:21:19 PM
First time I ever rooted for ISIS, TBH.

Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

I think it's just that they never forgive and never forget.  These people are still bent out of shape about the Reconquista, remember.  I agree that they should be grateful to Bush really, but they don't see it that way.

Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 28, 2022, 10:16:23 PM
First time I ever rooted for ISIS, TBH.

Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

I think it's just that they never forgive and never forget.  These people are still bent out of shape about the Reconquista, remember.  I agree that they should be grateful to Bush really, but they don't see it that way.

Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.

You are aware that hasn't turned out to be proven, even today, right? From a review of the studies on the topic: (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492088/) "However, the reviewed studies and the available research evidence do not provide a clear increase in birth defects and a clear indication of a possible environmental exposure including depleted uranium although the country has been facing several environmental challenges since 1980."

But them you just rooted for ISIS so I am not sure it would matter to you that you might be wrong.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: VisionStorm on May 29, 2022, 12:36:41 AM
First time I ever rooted for ISIS, TBH.

Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

I think it's just that they never forgive and never forget.  These people are still bent out of shape about the Reconquista, remember.  I agree that they should be grateful to Bush really, but they don't see it that way.

Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.

You are aware that hasn't turned out to be proven, even today, right? From a review of the studies on the topic: (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492088/) "However, the reviewed studies and the available research evidence do not provide a clear increase in birth defects and a clear indication of a possible environmental exposure including depleted uranium although the country has been facing several environmental challenges since 1980."

But them you just rooted for ISIS so I am not sure it would matter to you that you might be wrong.

No, I wasn't aware of that, and there's a lot of conflicting information about it out there. But I love how you pick the one disputed fact out of the whole thing that I said and ignore the context of what I said, like Iraq wasn't destroyed under false pretexts under a war pushed by Bush and his administration, and that doesn't make Bush a war criminal.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 29, 2022, 01:12:38 AM
First time I ever rooted for ISIS, TBH.

Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

I think it's just that they never forgive and never forget.  These people are still bent out of shape about the Reconquista, remember.  I agree that they should be grateful to Bush really, but they don't see it that way.

Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.

You are aware that hasn't turned out to be proven, even today, right? From a review of the studies on the topic: (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492088/) "However, the reviewed studies and the available research evidence do not provide a clear increase in birth defects and a clear indication of a possible environmental exposure including depleted uranium although the country has been facing several environmental challenges since 1980."

But them you just rooted for ISIS so I am not sure it would matter to you that you might be wrong.

No, I wasn't aware of that, and there's a lot of conflicting information about it out there. But I love how you pick the one disputed fact out of the whole thing that I said and ignore the context of what I said, like Iraq wasn't destroyed under false pretexts under a war pushed by Bush and his administration, and that doesn't make Bush a war criminal.

I don't think that's at all what happened. I think the left convinced you that the President, who simply made a mistake based on the evidence presented to him, instead engaged in a conspiracy to intentionally lie. He's not a war criminal, just an ordinary man who did his best under difficult circumstances but did mistakenly jump to conclusions about WMD which turned out to be wrong. A big part of the reason he was wrong was Saddam himself also thought he had WMD, because his henchmen lied to him about it.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: I on May 29, 2022, 02:06:18 AM


Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.

I meant they should be grateful to Bush for providing them the opportunity to expand into Iraq, which he did by taking out Saddam and leaving nothing in his place.  Well, nothing really effective, anyway.  ISIS tried to take over several countries, only one of which was Iraq.  Now, al-Qaeda and the Taliban and Sunni Iraqis, THEY have particular reason to hate Bush.  ISIS are total opportunists; they may have figured they could cement support among large numbers of Muslims by taking out a prominent figure who's widely hated in their part of the world.  Like them or not, most Muslim terrorist groups have specific political goals that, if met, would settle them down.  Nit ISIS, they just seem to be a group in search of plunder, slaves, murder and rape.  I can't think of a single Muslim government anywhere they don't hate and wouldn't try to overthrow if they could.  They've fought Turks, Syrians, Egyptians, Kurds, Yazidis, Iraqi tribal militia... the list is a long one, and Americans are just one more entry on it.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: VisionStorm on May 29, 2022, 08:25:34 AM
First time I ever rooted for ISIS, TBH.

Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

I think it's just that they never forgive and never forget.  These people are still bent out of shape about the Reconquista, remember.  I agree that they should be grateful to Bush really, but they don't see it that way.

Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.

You are aware that hasn't turned out to be proven, even today, right? From a review of the studies on the topic: (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492088/) "However, the reviewed studies and the available research evidence do not provide a clear increase in birth defects and a clear indication of a possible environmental exposure including depleted uranium although the country has been facing several environmental challenges since 1980."

But them you just rooted for ISIS so I am not sure it would matter to you that you might be wrong.

No, I wasn't aware of that, and there's a lot of conflicting information about it out there. But I love how you pick the one disputed fact out of the whole thing that I said and ignore the context of what I said, like Iraq wasn't destroyed under false pretexts under a war pushed by Bush and his administration, and that doesn't make Bush a war criminal.

I don't think that's at all what happened. I think the left convinced you that the President, who simply made a mistake based on the evidence presented to him, instead engaged in a conspiracy to intentionally lie. He's not a war criminal, just an ordinary man who did his best under difficult circumstances but did mistakenly jump to conclusions about WMD which turned out to be wrong. A big part of the reason he was wrong was Saddam himself also thought he had WMD, because his henchmen lied to him about it.

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.



Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.

I meant they should be grateful to Bush for providing them the opportunity to expand into Iraq, which he did by taking out Saddam and leaving nothing in his place.  Well, nothing really effective, anyway.  ISIS tried to take over several countries, only one of which was Iraq.  Now, al-Qaeda and the Taliban and Sunni Iraqis, THEY have particular reason to hate Bush.  ISIS are total opportunists; they may have figured they could cement support among large numbers of Muslims by taking out a prominent figure who's widely hated in their part of the world.  Like them or not, most Muslim terrorist groups have specific political goals that, if met, would settle them down.  Nit ISIS, they just seem to be a group in search of plunder, slaves, murder and rape.  I can't think of a single Muslim government anywhere they don't hate and wouldn't try to overthrow if they could.  They've fought Turks, Syrians, Egyptians, Kurds, Yazidis, Iraqi tribal militia... the list is a long one, and Americans are just one more entry on it.

ISIS are opportunistic bastards, I'll give you that.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on May 29, 2022, 02:57:13 PM
No, I wasn't aware of that, and there's a lot of conflicting information about it out there. But I love how you pick the one disputed fact out of the whole thing that I said and ignore the context of what I said, like Iraq wasn't destroyed under false pretexts under a war pushed by Bush and his administration, and that doesn't make Bush a war criminal.
That's a really weird response. People point out errors in areas where they have knowledge/interest, it's very strange to expect they're going to affirm or deny the rest of what you said because they replied to a very specific point.

Without knowing anything about the specific subject of depleted uranium from the first Gulf War, I'm also skeptical. There was a lot of radiation hysteria and misinformation during the Cold War, and it still persists. The few websites I skimmed didn't come across as credible.

Note what I just said doesn't require me to point out that Bush is garbage, or to criticize the endless wars, the military-industrial complex, or American war crimes.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 29, 2022, 07:19:59 PM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on May 29, 2022, 07:28:12 PM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.

I work with governments. When they make a mistake, it isn't simple. It's incompetence, laziness, and apathy.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 29, 2022, 09:09:35 PM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.

I work with governments. When they make a mistake, it isn't simple. It's incompetence, laziness, and apathy.

Yes, and? I'd say it's fair to describe both the WMD in Iraq and the Wedding Party Drone attack as incompetence and possibly laziness and apathy.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on May 29, 2022, 09:17:28 PM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.

I work with governments. When they make a mistake, it isn't simple. It's incompetence, laziness, and apathy.

Yes, and? I'd say it's fair to describe both the WMD in Iraq and the Wedding Party Drone attack as incompetence and possibly laziness and apathy.

My point being that when government makes mistakes, it's never innocent and simple.  Government is full of sociopaths supported by legions of the lazy and incompetent. When a mistake happens it usually involves "leaders" doubling down on their stupid rather than acknowledging the mistake and fixing it.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 29, 2022, 10:47:59 PM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.

I work with governments. When they make a mistake, it isn't simple. It's incompetence, laziness, and apathy.

Yes, and? I'd say it's fair to describe both the WMD in Iraq and the Wedding Party Drone attack as incompetence and possibly laziness and apathy.

My point being that when government makes mistakes, it's never innocent and simple.  Government is full of sociopaths supported by legions of the lazy and incompetent. When a mistake happens it usually involves "leaders" doubling down on their stupid rather than acknowledging the mistake and fixing it.

I think that's probably true. I don't think doubling down on stupid makes one a war criminal.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on May 29, 2022, 11:32:51 PM
If you stupidly fire a gun off into the dark and you kill someone…are you a criminal?  The “Best and Brightest” in DC are held to a lower standard than a drunk guy in a trailer park?  War criminals I have noticed are usually on the losing side….pays to be a winner I guess.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on May 30, 2022, 12:03:37 AM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.

I work with governments. When they make a mistake, it isn't simple. It's incompetence, laziness, and apathy.

Yes, and? I'd say it's fair to describe both the WMD in Iraq and the Wedding Party Drone attack as incompetence and possibly laziness and apathy.

My point being that when government makes mistakes, it's never innocent and simple.  Government is full of sociopaths supported by legions of the lazy and incompetent. When a mistake happens it usually involves "leaders" doubling down on their stupid rather than acknowledging the mistake and fixing it.

I think that's probably true. I don't think doubling down on stupid makes one a war criminal.
Then what does?

We have an entire governmental structure that's almost completely protected by qualified and similar immunities. Nobody's ever held accountable, except occasionally a few low-level scapegoats. And you're saying when something truly horrible happens, it's not their fault.

People with the authority to kill other people need to be held to a higher standard, not to a standard so low it makes a dent in the floor.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on May 30, 2022, 10:58:37 AM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.

I work with governments. When they make a mistake, it isn't simple. It's incompetence, laziness, and apathy.

Yes, and? I'd say it's fair to describe both the WMD in Iraq and the Wedding Party Drone attack as incompetence and possibly laziness and apathy.

My point being that when government makes mistakes, it's never innocent and simple.  Government is full of sociopaths supported by legions of the lazy and incompetent. When a mistake happens it usually involves "leaders" doubling down on their stupid rather than acknowledging the mistake and fixing it.

I think that's probably true. I don't think doubling down on stupid makes one a war criminal.
Then what does?

We have an entire governmental structure that's almost completely protected by qualified and similar immunities. Nobody's ever held accountable, except occasionally a few low-level scapegoats. And you're saying when something truly horrible happens, it's not their fault.

People with the authority to kill other people need to be held to a higher standard, not to a standard so low it makes a dent in the floor.

There are a couple of things that can and should be done to fix this.

1. Term limits for every elected office. Every office. I'd prefer officeholder by random lottery, but that's a bridge too far.
1a. No revolving door of government, lobbying, and associated industry.
1b. No PACs, no donations by any organization. Individual donations only and only up to $1,000.
2. Mandatory shuffling of job assignments for career civil servants (i.e. you don't get to be the Chief Drone Bean Counter for Division A of Department 57 of Branch Zulu of the Federal Carbonpaper Quality Assurance Agency for the next 30 years, you have to move amongst federal agencies every couple of years since a financial analyst (in this example) should be competent to be one in any federal agency).
3. No qualified immunity. None. Not for law enforcement, not for politicians, not for judges.
4. Require law enforcement to have the same degree of training and licensure as lawyers, doctors, and engineers.
5. Tactical units for law enforcement *must* have actual combat experience or have been in a combat arms branch (infantry, MP, pararescue, etc.) No more fat cops involved in cosplay who are afraid of getting shot.
6. Prosecutors shall not be elected and using it as a stepping stone to a judgeship or higher elected office.
6a. They need to prosecute according to the law, not what they think they can convict on, not should they be allowed to plea bargain solely to obtain a "win.'
7. We're need to forcefully reject any and all attempts to move society to the left.  Wanna smoke dope while having buttsex with three partners who dress up as they opposite sex? Do it on your own time, but you won't be allowed to promote it publicly in any way, shape, or form where you have undue influence over children or the public at large. This would secondarily eliminate the grifting involving Marxist organizations owned and operated by the family members of politicians being hired to do this by those same politicians.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on May 30, 2022, 11:57:15 AM
I think that's probably true. I don't think doubling down on stupid makes one a war criminal.
Then what does?

We have an entire governmental structure that's almost completely protected by qualified and similar immunities. Nobody's ever held accountable, except occasionally a few low-level scapegoats. And you're saying when something truly horrible happens, it's not their fault.

People with the authority to kill other people need to be held to a higher standard, not to a standard so low it makes a dent in the floor.

There are a couple of things that can and should be done to fix this.

1. Term limits for every elected office. Every office. I'd prefer officeholder by random lottery, but that's a bridge too far.
1a. No revolving door of government, lobbying, and associated industry.
1b. No PACs, no donations by any organization. Individual donations only and only up to $1,000.
2. Mandatory shuffling of job assignments for career civil servants (i.e. you don't get to be the Chief Drone Bean Counter for Division A of Department 57 of Branch Zulu of the Federal Carbonpaper Quality Assurance Agency for the next 30 years, you have to move amongst federal agencies every couple of years since a financial analyst (in this example) should be competent to be one in any federal agency).
3. No qualified immunity. None. Not for law enforcement, not for politicians, not for judges.
4. Require law enforcement to have the same degree of training and licensure as lawyers, doctors, and engineers.
5. Tactical units for law enforcement *must* have actual combat experience or have been in a combat arms branch (infantry, MP, pararescue, etc.) No more fat cops involved in cosplay who are afraid of getting shot.
6. Prosecutors shall not be elected and using it as a stepping stone to a judgeship or higher elected office.
6a. They need to prosecute according to the law, not what they think they can convict on, not should they be allowed to plea bargain solely to obtain a "win.'
7. We're need to forcefully reject any and all attempts to move society to the left.  Wanna smoke dope while having buttsex with three partners who dress up as they opposite sex? Do it on your own time, but you won't be allowed to promote it publicly in any way, shape, or form where you have undue influence over children or the public at large. This would secondarily eliminate the grifting involving Marxist organizations owned and operated by the family members of politicians being hired to do this by those same politicians.
There are some good ideas in there, but a lot of ideas I'm skeptical about. Term limits, for example. I'm all for them in theory, but they don't seem to make much practical difference.

I do think the qualified/etc. immunies need to be killed dead. This includes criminal immunities, but also civil. Citizens need to be able to sue their government for redress, when the government harms them. This is a fundamental right, which should never be abridged.

I do think a lifetime ban on working in the industry you regulated is a good idea.

But I think a ban on PACs and very low limits on individual contributions is a terrible idea. Most politicians already have to spend ridiculous amounts of time raising money, and the parties are the gatekeepers, meaning we end up with elected officials who are first and foremost professional fund raisers not whatever skill or talents we want in that position, and who are completely beholden to their party because the party controls whether they can get re-elected. In practice, the few true outsider politicians who ever manage to get elected tend to be rich, because self-funding your campaign is one of the few ways to get around these restrictions. The other is to be an internet celebrity, like AOC or Marjorie Taylor Greene, who both successfully raise lots of money from tons of tiny donors. But that's a tiny percentage, and most of their donors aren't in their districts, anyway, so it raises questions about whether they really represent the people they're supposed to represent.

I'm not sure shuffling people around the bureaucracy would make much difference. I think say a 10 year cap on government employment -- of any kind, over your entire life -- might help. If you can't make government your career, that destroys a lot of the worst incentives, as well as preventing things like the last 2-1/2 years of people, who never even had a job in the private sector, telling us how they're going to fix the economy and help businesses.

Getting rid of SWAT is probably a better idea than further militarizing them.

Not sure how to fix prosecutors, but plea bargaining needs to be completely re-thought. It's basically just become a way to punish people without any real due process. And forcing them to prosecute for all violations of the law isn't practical, because everyone breaks dozens of laws every day. The basic problem is there are too many laws and too many regulations that function as laws. The solution to this morass was to give prosecutorial discretion to the prosecutors, but that basically just means they can punish anyone they want at any time for any reason, which gives them tremendous leverage in things like plea bargains. This is very similar to the much broader problem of regulatory discretion, which gives regulators vast and unaccountable soft power over industries (social media's compliance with censorship and spying on citizens are just two examples). This allows the government to effectively control the private sector (this idea from the left that we've been living in a laissez faire paradise is absolutely ridiculous), and to demand favors, which is the root of corruption and cronyism. This whole area is a Gordian knot that probably just needs to be cut out entirely and replaced with a new system.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on May 31, 2022, 01:23:02 AM

Whatever you need to tell yourself, dude. You're probably the first guy I've run into trying to defend Bush. Mistakes were made like Obama made mistakes droning multiple wedding parties and US civilians.

Yes, I feel pretty confident it was a mistake when President Obama's administration drone bombed the wedding, and not some nefarious secret plot.

I always think it's weird when people think the Government doesn't make mistakes. We could only wish for the level of competency some folks around here seem to think they possess in nefarious pots and secret conspiracies and multi-stage plans and sometime multi-year plans. all involving Government employees in key positions to enact parts of the plan.

I work with governments. When they make a mistake, it isn't simple. It's incompetence, laziness, and apathy.

Yes, and? I'd say it's fair to describe both the WMD in Iraq and the Wedding Party Drone attack as incompetence and possibly laziness and apathy.

My point being that when government makes mistakes, it's never innocent and simple.  Government is full of sociopaths supported by legions of the lazy and incompetent. When a mistake happens it usually involves "leaders" doubling down on their stupid rather than acknowledging the mistake and fixing it.

I think that's probably true. I don't think doubling down on stupid makes one a war criminal.
Then what does?

We have an entire governmental structure that's almost completely protected by qualified and similar immunities. Nobody's ever held accountable, except occasionally a few low-level scapegoats. And you're saying when something truly horrible happens, it's not their fault.

People with the authority to kill other people need to be held to a higher standard, not to a standard so low it makes a dent in the floor.

It's the intent to do wrong. As in REALLY wrong. That's a basic criminal requirement between lower offenses and high offenses. Mistakes, even stubborn and stupid ones, are not war crimes. I am not saying it's "not their fault." If you make a mistake and bad things happen it IS your fault. But being your fault isn't the same as being a war criminal.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Chris24601 on May 31, 2022, 09:56:05 AM
One partial solution on the prosecutor side would be to not make their promotion through the bureaucracy contingent upon their conviction rate.

Right now advancing in that office doesn’t care about justice, just how many prosecutions result in sentences. There’s an actual incentive for prosecutors to squelch exculpatory evidence and continue prosecuting those they know to be innocent because dropping the charges counts as a loss and hurts the prosecutor’s career.

That is absolutely a bass-ackward approach to getting anything close to justice. Convict the innocent or be punished is a sure fire ticket to a system that simply doesn’t work.

Maybe if “charges dropped due to exculpatory evidence” were also counted a win for purposes of promotion we might have prosecutors act more rationally as achieving justice not just a conviction would then benefit them.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 31, 2022, 12:08:17 PM
One partial solution on the prosecutor side would be to not make their promotion through the bureaucracy contingent upon their conviction rate.

Right now advancing in that office doesn’t care about justice, just how many prosecutions result in sentences. There’s an actual incentive for prosecutors to squelch exculpatory evidence and continue prosecuting those they know to be innocent because dropping the charges counts as a loss and hurts the prosecutor’s career.

That is absolutely a bass-ackward approach to getting anything close to justice. Convict the innocent or be punished is a sure fire ticket to a system that simply doesn’t work.

Maybe if “charges dropped due to exculpatory evidence” were also counted a win for purposes of promotion we might have prosecutors act more rationally as achieving justice not just a conviction would then benefit them.

And "charges dropped due to politics, or external pressures" should get you fired on the spot.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 31, 2022, 12:10:41 PM
One partial solution on the prosecutor side would be to not make their promotion through the bureaucracy contingent upon their conviction rate.

Right now advancing in that office doesn’t care about justice, just how many prosecutions result in sentences. There’s an actual incentive for prosecutors to squelch exculpatory evidence and continue prosecuting those they know to be innocent because dropping the charges counts as a loss and hurts the prosecutor’s career.

That is absolutely a bass-ackward approach to getting anything close to justice. Convict the innocent or be punished is a sure fire ticket to a system that simply doesn’t work.

Maybe if “charges dropped due to exculpatory evidence” were also counted a win for purposes of promotion we might have prosecutors act more rationally as achieving justice not just a conviction would then benefit them.

And "charges dropped due to politics, or external pressures" should get you fired on the spot.
How about 'charges pressed due to same'?
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on May 31, 2022, 01:53:26 PM
It's the intent to do wrong. As in REALLY wrong. That's a basic criminal requirement between lower offenses and high offenses. Mistakes, even stubborn and stupid ones, are not war crimes. I am not saying it's "not their fault." If you make a mistake and bad things happen it IS your fault. But being your fault isn't the same as being a war criminal.
I hate that for the same reason I hate the idea of hate crimes. I believe in judging people on their actions, not on mind reading.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on May 31, 2022, 05:02:58 PM
  I guess the big way to avoid being a war criminal is just be such a huge fuck up you never get assigned "intent".   I guess when that dumbass in the big house now tries to ban the 2nd amendment and literally starts a civil war we can all just laugh and say that is just uncle joe being joe.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Shasarak on May 31, 2022, 06:15:12 PM
  I guess the big way to avoid being a war criminal is just be such a huge fuck up you never get assigned "intent".   I guess when that dumbass in the big house now tries to ban the 2nd amendment and literally starts a civil war we can all just laugh and say that is just uncle joe being joe.

The best way is to be the "Winner"

Winners never commit the war crime of being the Loser.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on May 31, 2022, 06:18:29 PM
  I guess the big way to avoid being a war criminal is just be such a huge fuck up you never get assigned "intent".   I guess when that dumbass in the big house now tries to ban the 2nd amendment and literally starts a civil war we can all just laugh and say that is just uncle joe being joe.

The best way is to be the "Winner"

Winners never commit the war crime of being the Loser.

  Yeah I said that earlier, But you are right the biggest war crime is "Losing". 
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Wrath of God on June 03, 2022, 04:24:16 AM
Quote
Welcome to the origins of Medieval feudalism. The central Roman government could no longer protect its population so the population made pacts with those capable of doing so. They would give resources to the “Werd” (common root of both Lord and Guard) and in return they would protect that community from bandits and other plunderers.

Over time it picked up less desirable cruft… going from best man for the job to hereditary by primogeniture… going from a mutual pact between parties (i.e. the non-warriors producing food and equipment were just as important as the warriors who protected them in terms of keeping things functioning) to one of rulers and subjects… from King as “head of a kin group” to King as distant unrelated ruler… etc.

That cruft was what out ancestors in the United States eventually rebelled against and tried to establish something closer to those older mutual bonds… only now those have cruft on them too that we’ll probably need a new compact of mutual bonds to actually restore and, over the course of a few more centuries will accrue cruft of its own.

I'd say it's overly optimistic vision. For most part it was a) Roman government making deals with various mostly Germanic but also Iranic tribes to serve as mercenaries, auxillary forces, which as decadence devoured Rome more and more, took more and more major role in region. And those groups were never that much interested in consensual relations - besides most of societies in Europe were stratified into farmers and warriors at least since Bronze Age and Indoeuropeans taking over Europe (where they become jarls of new Europe, while descendants of Neolithic Farmers become their thralls), b) later Franks, Saxons, Goths - while forging new kingdom they really did not asked farmers for anything. There was just political void after Rome and they stormed it.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on June 03, 2022, 04:21:53 PM
  I guess the big way to avoid being a war criminal is just be such a huge fuck up you never get assigned "intent".   I guess when that dumbass in the big house now tries to ban the 2nd amendment and literally starts a civil war we can all just laugh and say that is just uncle joe being joe.

EVERYONE was making the same fuckup though, in numerous different Governments across the world. Saddam himself also believed it. You act like Bush believing Iraq had WMD was some singular belief. It wasn't. Everyone was making the same mistake he was making. Often BECAUSE Iraq apparently did think they had them too, and the intel is mostly based on what the other nation is internally saying.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 03, 2022, 09:26:36 PM
  That's bullshit.  The USA knew damn well he did not have nukes, and they knew damn well that was what they implied by saying WMDs.   The USA told everyone else what to believe and since the war machine was cranked to 11 and lots of people saw zero need to use any critical thinking and just kill someone after a group of dudes on a terror watch list getting flying lessons managed to pull the hijack of the century and kill thousands, the people wanted blood.  I do not think anyone believed that intel.  They knew someone had to pay, and Saddam had the really bad fortune of being on the list, and being a shitload easier to get to than Osama was. 
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 04, 2022, 09:57:27 AM
  That's bullshit.  The USA knew damn well he did not have nukes, and they knew damn well that was what they implied by saying WMDs.   The USA told everyone else what to believe and since the war machine was cranked to 11 and lots of people saw zero need to use any critical thinking and just kill someone after a group of dudes on a terror watch list getting flying lessons managed to pull the hijack of the century and kill thousands, the people wanted blood.  I do not think anyone believed that intel.  They knew someone had to pay, and Saddam had the really bad fortune of being on the list, and being a shitload easier to get to than Osama was.

And this is the problem with letting three letter agencies decide foreign policy. The US buddies up with whoever will do their bidding and then turn on them the moment it is convenient, all while virtue-signalling the American way of truth and righteousness.  We've still not learnt the lessons of Smedley Butler.

What unarguably happens is that contradictory or exculpatory information gets suppressed (never makes it into the PDB) or is discounted as being unvetted. For instance, we *knew* that the Soviets were terrified of AA83 being real yet we only de-escalated the exercise at the last minute due to the actions of one air force officer, all while the Intel boys are more worried about ousting some 3rd world tinpot at the behest of some US multinational whose board members are related to some senator.

We enable them to engage in behavior that is unethical, immoral, and unlawful and they use the shield of security classification to keep secret information that is not of military value against an adversary; rather, info that is politically embarrassing for politicians or would be devastating if the public learned that they were breaking the law - and it has been going on since at least 1946.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Battlemaster on June 06, 2022, 08:56:27 AM
First time I ever rooted for ISIS, TBH.

Why does ISIS care about Dubya now? Something doesn't smell right.

Is it a play get the US involved again in the endless Middle East wars?

Dubya was the best thing that ever happened to Iraqi nutjobs. Saddam would have never allowed ISIS to fart wrong, let alone take his cities.

I think it's just that they never forgive and never forget.  These people are still bent out of shape about the Reconquista, remember.  I agree that they should be grateful to Bush really, but they don't see it that way.

Yes, I'm sure they are grateful for War Criminal Bush turning Iraq into a radioactive wasteland where children are still being born with birth defects today.

🖕 ISIS.

Asides from that I agree with you.  Bush lied to invade Iraq to steal it's oil and give it to American oil oligarchs. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were murdered by the US military in one of the largest armed robberies in the 20th century. If Iraqis went after the shrub I'd wish them well,  but fuck ISIS.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: SHARK on June 06, 2022, 05:21:26 PM
Greetings!

Term Limits *seem* like they would be a solution--but that feeling just doesn't line up with the realities of how political dynamics work. On one hand, it does provide some mitigation for bad politicians or do nothing leaders--but it also hamstrings actually good political leaders, because of how the time is spent, negotiating, getting to know people, how group A or group B works, and so on. It takes a term just to get plugged in. Then you spend the next term fighting to make stuff happen, and then there's the door.

Thus, in the end, a system is strengthened where most of the politicians are either terrible or at best, well-intentioned, but still largely ineffective.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 06, 2022, 05:44:02 PM
Greetings!

Term Limits *seem* like they would be a solution--but that feeling just doesn't line up with the realities of how political dynamics work. On one hand, it does provide some mitigation for bad politicians or do nothing leaders--but it also hamstrings actually good political leaders, because of how the time is spent, negotiating, getting to know people, how group A or group B works, and so on. It takes a term just to get plugged in. Then you spend the next term fighting to make stuff happen, and then there's the door.

Thus, in the end, a system is strengthened where most of the politicians are either terrible or at best, well-intentioned, but still largely ineffective.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So, if they were to go and vote for a few weeks on legislation and then go back home to they're normal businesses and jobs, fine stay elected for a few turns. But, no, these cocksuckers who can't do anything else have decided to be leeches on the public's dime.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 07, 2022, 07:54:23 AM
Greetings!

Term Limits *seem* like they would be a solution--but that feeling just doesn't line up with the realities of how political dynamics work. On one hand, it does provide some mitigation for bad politicians or do nothing leaders--but it also hamstrings actually good political leaders, because of how the time is spent, negotiating, getting to know people, how group A or group B works, and so on. It takes a term just to get plugged in. Then you spend the next term fighting to make stuff happen, and then there's the door.

Thus, in the end, a system is strengthened where most of the politicians are either terrible or at best, well-intentioned, but still largely ineffective.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's not a bug, it's a feature.

I don't WANT political leaders to have the time to network or hobnob. Ideally, I really want their power limited as much as possible.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Chris24601 on June 07, 2022, 08:21:11 AM
What really needs term limits are the permanent bureaucracy UNDER the elected and appointed officials.

A prime example is the Senior Executive Service… a load of unelected and basically unfireable wonks who all went to the same schools and married into the same circles with their own agendas who sit just under the Cabinet officials and just do whatever they want regardless of what the official nominated and confirmed to lead the department wants done… because they can’t be fired without years of paperwork that more or less resets every time the person at the top is switched out every 2-4 years.

All because some eggheads decided that would be less corrupt than the spoils system where incoming administrations could clean house from top to bottom and fill positions with people who want to do what the person elected by the people wants done.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 07, 2022, 08:43:51 AM
What really needs term limits are the permanent bureaucracy UNDER the elected and appointed officials.

A prime example is the Senior Executive Service… a load of unelected and basically unfireable wonks who all went to the same schools and married into the same circles with their own agendas who sit just under the Cabinet officials and just do whatever they want regardless of what the official nominated and confirmed to lead the department wants done… because they can’t be fired without years of paperwork that more or less resets every time the person at the top is switched out every 2-4 years.

All because some eggheads decided that would be less corrupt than the spoils system where incoming administrations could clean house from top to bottom and fill positions with people who want to do what the person elected by the people wants done.
Quite true. As I've remarked before, 'I can vote out my Senator, but what do I do about unelected bureaucrat #74?'.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Wrath of God on June 07, 2022, 10:54:01 AM
Which would be fine, if actual politician in power could just strangle his buerocrates on a whim like Osman Sultan.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 07, 2022, 02:19:33 PM
What really needs term limits are the permanent bureaucracy UNDER the elected and appointed officials.

A prime example is the Senior Executive Service… a load of unelected and basically unfireable wonks who all went to the same schools and married into the same circles with their own agendas who sit just under the Cabinet officials and just do whatever they want regardless of what the official nominated and confirmed to lead the department wants done… because they can’t be fired without years of paperwork that more or less resets every time the person at the top is switched out every 2-4 years.

All because some eggheads decided that would be less corrupt than the spoils system where incoming administrations could clean house from top to bottom and fill positions with people who want to do what the person elected by the people wants done.
Quite true. As I've remarked before, 'I can vote out my Senator, but what do I do about unelected bureaucrat #74?'.

So here's the deal.  *Some* SES are competent. Some career civil servants are competent. We need to keep those who are. The problem is most aren't.  Or to put it another way, as a highly competent govvie I work with stated in regards to everyone else in his unit, "I work with retards and morons."

Those in government below the level of SES who are competent know they're competent and they generally have chosen to stay in that form of employment because it has less responsibility for the same pay and perks as a job in industry, while allowing them the ability to work their side hustle...

Really what would be ideal is to shuffle most federal positions amongst different agencies every election cycle.  An SES leader or a financial analyst or electrical engineer or custodial artist working at DoJ should be able to do the same type of work at DoD, FEMA, or GSA, and it prevents entrenched incompetence from taking root.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Shasarak on June 07, 2022, 05:11:58 PM
Everything follows Price's law (50% of the work is done by the square root of the total number of people who participate in the work)

So the bigger the work force then inherently the less efficient it is.

Unfortunately Government is too big to fail.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on June 08, 2022, 04:16:26 PM
  That's bullshit.  The USA knew damn well he did not have nukes, and they knew damn well that was what they implied by saying WMDs.   The USA told everyone else what to believe and since the war machine was cranked to 11 and lots of people saw zero need to use any critical thinking and just kill someone after a group of dudes on a terror watch list getting flying lessons managed to pull the hijack of the century and kill thousands, the people wanted blood.  I do not think anyone believed that intel.  They knew someone had to pay, and Saddam had the really bad fortune of being on the list, and being a shitload easier to get to than Osama was.

All the evidence suggests they did not know damn well. As there was evidence of chemical weapons, and of nuclear material and centrifuges. MANY foreign intelligence agencies confirmed this independently. And most of it was because they had good evidence that Saddam was telling his closest advisers that they did, and hearing from them back that he did. Everyone just assumed Saddam knew what he had, and that his advisers were not lying to him about this stuff. That, in the end, was the biggest mistake.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on June 08, 2022, 04:18:05 PM
And now we have a man arrested attempting to assassinate Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/california-man-taken-into-custody-near-justice-kavanaugh-s-home-with-weapon/ar-AAYdMBj).
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 08, 2022, 05:17:40 PM
And now we have a man arrested attempting to assassinate Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/california-man-taken-into-custody-near-justice-kavanaugh-s-home-with-weapon/ar-AAYdMBj).

He was only doing what Chuck Schumer and AOC encouraged... What's the big deal?  Oh, you mean that the law should apply equally to everyone regardless of their political leaning??  Well that message should have been conveyed to Democrats loud and clear instead of the polite right allowing them to be burger king's and "have it their way."
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 08, 2022, 05:32:15 PM
  What I need to know...is did the would be assassin have his LGBTQ+ support pin on?  That seems to be the big transgression right now, whether you are a Christian baseball player or a Muslim Esports star, it seems you better understand there is now one faith above the others.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Shasarak on June 08, 2022, 07:20:56 PM
And now we have a man arrested attempting to assassinate Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/california-man-taken-into-custody-near-justice-kavanaugh-s-home-with-weapon/ar-AAYdMBj).

He was only doing what Chuck Schumer and AOC encouraged... What's the big deal?

"Will no one rid me of this troublesome Priest?"
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 08, 2022, 07:28:09 PM
What I want to know is when they're going to imprison without hope of release the Kavanaugh and Gorusch insurrectionists who attempt to overthrow the legitimate processes of government and besieged the heads of one of one of the branches of the federal government, when they're going to throw the book at the insurrectionists by charging them with every vaguely applicable charge in the book, when they're going to strip away the committee positions of all the congressmonsters who didn't quickly and harshly denounce the insurrectionists, when they're going to start filing motions to bar all those politicians from being elected against under the grounds they took up arms against the state, when they're going to hold a prime-time hearing to rake over the coals any politicians and social media influencers who aren't on the side of Kavanaugh and Gorush, when they're going to use that as an excuse to lock down the capitol and throw up security precautions designed to keep the dirty public from the sacred halls where only the noble elites are allowed to tread, when they'll perform purity tests on the military and purge the wrong-thinkers, when they're going to give the pet police force of the Speaker the power to investigate anyone anywhere who is politically inconvenient, and when they're going to get the media to roundly denounce it at every possible opportunity for years on end using the most extreme language and metaphors possible, like comparing it to Pearl Harbor and the Civil War.

When?

Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Shasarak on June 08, 2022, 08:49:17 PM
We are at Now Now

Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 08, 2022, 09:24:59 PM
What I want to know is when they're going to imprison without hope of release the Kavanaugh and Gorusch insurrectionists who attempt to overthrow the legitimate processes of government and besieged the heads of one of one of the branches of the federal government, when they're going to throw the book at the insurrectionists by charging them with every vaguely applicable charge in the book, when they're going to strip away the committee positions of all the congressmonsters who didn't quickly and harshly denounce the insurrectionists, when they're going to start filing motions to bar all those politicians from being elected against under the grounds they took up arms against the state, when they're going to hold a prime-time hearing to rake over the coals any politicians and social media influencers who aren't on the side of Kavanaugh and Gorush, when they're going to use that as an excuse to lock down the capitol and throw up security precautions designed to keep the dirty public from the sacred halls where only the noble elites are allowed to tread, when they'll perform purity tests on the military and purge the wrong-thinkers, when they're going to give the pet police force of the Speaker the power to investigate anyone anywhere who is politically inconvenient, and when they're going to get the media to roundly denounce it at every possible opportunity for years on end using the most extreme language and metaphors possible, like comparing it to Pearl Harbor and the Civil War.

When?

Again, I point back to the duel to solve this. Cannons at ten paces would shut up the most ardent leftist...
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Battlemaster on June 08, 2022, 10:11:17 PM
The right js screaming about possible attempts at McConnell, a possible Isis attempt at bush for murdering hundreds if thousands if Iraqis, a possible shot at gorshits, but how much outrage did they express when a member of the right endorsed murdering 72 million Americans?


https://www.alamogordonews.com/story/news/local/new-mexico/2020/05/20/otero-county-commissioner-couy-griffin-only-good-democrat-dead-democrat/5220170002/

Yeah he made a half assed 'walk back' which meant nothing, you don't walk back something like that.

Also remeber tge attack on titan  bit where a Republican made a video of him murdering AOC then attacking Biden? Kathy Griffith had her career ruined iger tge bloody trump mask bit but the guy who made the video of murderibg AOC and attacking Biden wasn't even questioned.

Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 08, 2022, 10:16:51 PM
Dude, they literally caught a guy with a gun and a knife, walking on Kavanaugh's property (not McConnell, pay attention you retard), who straight up admitted he was there to kill the man.

That is terrorism.

Stop clutching your pearls and clean up the shit on your side before some dumb fucker pushes the switch Correia talks about. The one that has two settings: 'Off' and 'Kill All Sons Of Bitches'.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Battlemaster on June 08, 2022, 10:38:33 PM
Dude, they literally caught a guy with a gun and a knife, walking on Kavanaugh's property (not McConnell, pay attention you retard), who straight up admitted he was there to kill the man.

That is terrorism.

Stop clutching your pearls and clean up the shit on your side before some dumb fucker pushes the switch Correia talks about. The one that has two settings: 'Off' and 'Kill All Sons Of Bitches'.

You fucktarded cocksucker, a man recently murdered a judfe and then offed himself and they found he was targeting the ancient ugly evil turtle of the senate too.

Yeah my side has problems,  I'm a bil Maher denocrat and I criticize my side, but tge other side is talking about exterminating all other vjews, the shit on my side is nowhere near that bad

Btw I see you were too pussy to deal with tge issues I raised.  As for correia's switch, push it motherfuckers !!!  A lot of the left is sick of your shit and ready to have that war you're always talking about!
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on June 08, 2022, 10:47:42 PM
The right js screaming about possible attempts at McConnell, a possible Isis attempt at bush for murdering hundreds if thousands if Iraqis, a possible shot at gorshits, but how much outrage did they express when a member of the right endorsed murdering 72 million Americans?


https://www.alamogordonews.com/story/news/local/new-mexico/2020/05/20/otero-county-commissioner-couy-griffin-only-good-democrat-dead-democrat/5220170002/

Yeah he made a half assed 'walk back' which meant nothing, you don't walk back something like that.

Also remeber tge attack on titan  bit where a Republican made a video of him murdering AOC then attacking Biden? Kathy Griffith had her career ruined iger tge bloody trump mask bit but the guy who made the video of murderibg AOC and attacking Biden wasn't even questioned.

Are you comparing some rando county commissioner saying something stupid with actual assassination attempts?

Kathy Griffith's career is fine by the way. But don't complain about cancel culture while simultaneously pretending there is no such thing as cancel culture.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on June 08, 2022, 10:49:47 PM
Dude, they literally caught a guy with a gun and a knife, walking on Kavanaugh's property (not McConnell, pay attention you retard), who straight up admitted he was there to kill the man.

That is terrorism.

Stop clutching your pearls and clean up the shit on your side before some dumb fucker pushes the switch Correia talks about. The one that has two settings: 'Off' and 'Kill All Sons Of Bitches'.

You fucktarded cocksucker

I for one accept you regardless of whether you like people of your same gender. You don't need to hide who you are, by calling people cocksuckers as if that's an insult because it's a man you're talking to.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Shasarak on June 09, 2022, 01:30:05 AM
The right js screaming about possible attempts at McConnell

Oh, no! 

Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 03:27:43 AM
I'm a bil Maher denocrat...
That's funny, because the only thing Bill Maher is known for these days is being completely oblivious to everything around him.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 09, 2022, 08:25:59 AM
Dude, they literally caught a guy with a gun and a knife, walking on Kavanaugh's property (not McConnell, pay attention you retard), who straight up admitted he was there to kill the man.

That is terrorism.

Stop clutching your pearls and clean up the shit on your side before some dumb fucker pushes the switch Correia talks about. The one that has two settings: 'Off' and 'Kill All Sons Of Bitches'.

You fucktarded cocksucker, a man recently murdered a judfe and then offed himself and they found he was targeting the ancient ugly evil turtle of the senate too.

Yeah my side has problems,  I'm a bil Maher denocrat and I criticize my side, but tge other side is talking about exterminating all other vjews, the shit on my side is nowhere near that bad

Btw I see you were too pussy to deal with tge issues I raised.  As for correia's switch, push it motherfuckers !!!  A lot of the left is sick of your shit and ready to have that war you're always talking about!
Say when, pussy.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2022, 09:24:50 AM
  Assassins are not what they used to be.  Even Hinkley managed to get a few shots in on a sitting POTUS....which strangely he is now walking free after murdering a cop and shooting a POTUS.  These assassins need better training, or at least watch a few movies to get better ideas than making internet threats and then walking around like A holes.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 09:38:44 AM
Has everyone seen the latest poll from the Southern Poverty Law Center?
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas

It's really strange how they're burying the lead by pretending the big takeway from the poll is a demographic shift that everyone, on both the left and the right, recognizes.

It's not. The real takeaway from the poll is this:

Approval for "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy":
Okay, uncomfortably high. But not too bad.

Wow. Clearly a problem among Republicans.

Wait... Democratic women?

What the hell, that's even higher.

What the ever loving hell? Why did the SPLC bury this not just below the nonsense they're spouting about hte Great Replacement Theory, but below gender roles, and anti-government belief? Are they deliberate hiding it? Why is this not front page news in every news outlet?
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 09, 2022, 09:42:36 AM
Has everyone seen the latest poll from the Southern Poverty Law Center?
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas

It's really strange how they're burying the lead by pretending the big takeway from the poll is a demographic shift that everyone, on both the left and the right, recognizes.

It's not. The real takeaway from the poll is this:

Approval for "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy":

  • Older Dem women: 9%
  • Older Dem men: 6%
  • Older Rep women: 10%
  • Older Rep men: 6%

Okay, uncomfortably high. But not too bad.
  • Younger Rep men: 34%

Wow. Clearly a problem among Republicans.
  • Younger Dem women: 32%

Wait.. Dem women?
  • Younger Rep women: 40%

What the hell, that's even higher.
  • Younger Dem men: 44%

What the ever loving hell? Why did the SPLC bury this not just below the nonsense they're spouting about hte Great Replacement Theory, but below gender roles, and anti-government belief? Are they deliberate hiding it? Why is this not front page news in every news outlet?
If you take anything out of the SPLC seriously, you need to have your head examined. I wouldn't trust them to tell me the weather or the color of the sky. Even if it supports my argument, I would not trust them, Sam I Am, I would not trust their green eggs and ham.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 09:47:09 AM
If you take anything out of the SPLC seriously, you need to have your head examined. I wouldn't trust them to tell me the weather or the color of the sky. Even if it supports my argument, I would not trust them, Sam I Am, I would not trust their green eggs and ham.
That's irrelevant. The SPLC are reporting that 44% of younger Democratic men believe in assassinating their political opponents. Why is this not the headline news everywhere?

(Also, the list feature on this board sucks.)
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 09, 2022, 10:20:43 AM
If you take anything out of the SPLC seriously, you need to have your head examined. I wouldn't trust them to tell me the weather or the color of the sky. Even if it supports my argument, I would not trust them, Sam I Am, I would not trust their green eggs and ham.
That's irrelevant. The SPLC are reporting that 44% of younger Democratic men believe in assassinating their political opponents. Why is this not the headline news everywhere?

(Also, the list feature on this board sucks.)
Goes to credibility. The SPLC doesn't have any.

And besides, do you really think the major media organs of the DNC are going to report that statistic? Really?
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Battlemaster on June 09, 2022, 11:41:40 AM
Has everyone seen the latest poll from the Southern Poverty Law Center?
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas

It's really strange how they're burying the lead by pretending the big takeway from the poll is a demographic shift that everyone, on both the left and the right, recognizes.

It's not. The real takeaway from the poll is this:

Approval for "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy":
  • Older Dem women: 9%
  • Older Dem men: 6%
  • Older Rep women: 10%
  • Older Rep men: 6%
Okay, uncomfortably high. But not too bad.

  • Younger Rep men: 34%
Wow. Clearly a problem among Republicans.

  • Younger Dem women: 32%
Wait... Democratic women?

  • Younger Rep women: 40%
What the hell, that's even higher.

  • Younger Dem men: 44%
What the ever loving hell? Why did the SPLC bury this not just below the nonsense they're spouting about hte Great Replacement Theory, but below gender roles, and anti-government belief? Are they deliberate hiding it? Why is this not front page news in every news outlet?

There's nothing wrong with this.

Reps have been using Gerrymandering, voter suppression, court packing, constant fillibustering, etc to block democracy from working for over a decade now. It's perfectly reasonable for dems to be enraged by reps sabotaging democracy, trying to turn America into a one party country thru every dirty trick they can smugly pull whilea accusing dems of what the reps are doing.

I'm kinda surprised the war hasn't started yet and don't think it will take much longer for it to. I think the best possible future for America is a real civil war that separates it into blue and  red countries. Let the reps have the confederate states, plus the ones that split in half to pack the senate. Hell,  let them have Utah too. The war between mormons and Baptists will be fun to watch.

The democrats keep the rest. The reps can call their country donaldtrumpistan, murkkka, jeezuzland, whatever. If the reps retake the senate I think the balloon will go up.

Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2022, 12:14:47 PM
Has everyone seen the latest poll from the Southern Poverty Law Center?
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas

It's really strange how they're burying the lead by pretending the big takeway from the poll is a demographic shift that everyone, on both the left and the right, recognizes.

It's not. The real takeaway from the poll is this:

Approval for "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy":
  • Older Dem women: 9%
  • Older Dem men: 6%
  • Older Rep women: 10%
  • Older Rep men: 6%
Okay, uncomfortably high. But not too bad.

  • Younger Rep men: 34%
Wow. Clearly a problem among Republicans.

  • Younger Dem women: 32%
Wait... Democratic women?

  • Younger Rep women: 40%
What the hell, that's even higher.

  • Younger Dem men: 44%
What the ever loving hell? Why did the SPLC bury this not just below the nonsense they're spouting about hte Great Replacement Theory, but below gender roles, and anti-government belief? Are they deliberate hiding it? Why is this not front page news in every news outlet?

There's nothing wrong with this.

Reps have been using Gerrymandering, voter suppression, court packing, constant fillibustering, etc to block democracy from working for over a decade now. It's perfectly reasonable for dems to be enraged by reps sabotaging democracy, trying to turn America into a one party country thru every dirty trick they can smugly pull whilea accusing dems of what the reps are doing.

I'm kinda surprised the war hasn't started yet and don't think it will take much longer for it to. I think the best possible future for America is a real civil war that separates it into blue and  red countries. Let the reps have the confederate states, plus the ones that split in half to pack the senate. Hell,  let them have Utah too. The war between mormons and Baptists will be fun to watch.

The democrats keep the rest. The reps can call their country donaldtrumpistan, murkkka, jeezuzland, whatever. If the reps retake the senate I think the balloon will go up.

  I am all for a split, a war though....I think you might be underselling just how bad such a thing would be.  I prefer the amicable divorce.   I look forward to the blue states getting wrecked by all the Muslims they take in who decide they have had about enough of the rainbow flag, once the divorce is final.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Battlemaster on June 09, 2022, 12:37:54 PM
And I look forward to the red states suffering massive population drops once a pure rep government utterly eliminates sosec, medicare, food stamps, welfare, vaccination programs,  etc. and their people suffer the rule of a pure rep government.

And man, what till tge white nationalists  in trumpistan realize they they are now basically  corporate slaves!
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2022, 12:46:22 PM
And I look forward to the red states suffering massive population drops once a pure rep government utterly eliminates sosec, medicare, food stamps, welfare, vaccination programs,  etc. and their people suffer the rule of a pure rep government.

And man, what till tge white nationalists  in trumpistan realize they they are now basically  corporate slaves!

  I rather live with a much smaller population of lions, than a massive population of sheep if given a choice.   As for the corporate slaves part.....that is nigh every American now...so not sure how that is any change at all.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Battlemaster on June 09, 2022, 12:50:56 PM
Wow, you're just a psychopath who likes to see people die, regardelss of whose side they're on aren't you? Yep, you are a real modern American Republican.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2022, 12:53:17 PM
Wow, you're just a psychopath who likes to see people die, regardelss of whose side they're on aren't you? Yep, you are a real modern American Republican.

  You are sort of retarded I guess.  The things you suggested...removal of welfare and such will not kill republican minded people, the people who want welfare will not be in a republican run nation (thus the population drop).  As for the psychopath, you are the fucktard who suggests a civil war would be the best thing to happen. As for being "republican"....well never before fucktards like you decided you needed trannies in the girl's locker room and competing in girls sports.   So people like you did this.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2022, 12:54:28 PM
  But I also understand how a sheep views a lion as a psychopath.  Sorry about your weakling perspective.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 09, 2022, 01:21:20 PM
And I look forward to the red states suffering massive population drops once a pure rep government utterly eliminates sosec, medicare, food stamps, welfare, vaccination programs,  etc. and their people suffer the rule of a pure rep government.

And man, what till tge white nationalists  in trumpistan realize they they are now basically  corporate slaves!
LOL. Now that's funny. You should write for Kimmel.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2022, 01:25:46 PM
And I look forward to the red states suffering massive population drops once a pure rep government utterly eliminates sosec, medicare, food stamps, welfare, vaccination programs,  etc. and their people suffer the rule of a pure rep government.

And man, what till tge white nationalists  in trumpistan realize they they are now basically  corporate slaves!
LOL. Now that's funny. You should write for Kimmel.

  In a way he is correct, there would be a smaller population, but the drop would be up front when all the people who want the state to take care of them opt out and go to the blue states.  Red people have no issues with vax...some issues with massive medical experiments, but not a legit vax.  Food stamps, welfare ...maybe sosec he might be right.  I know I could much better with 15 percent of my earnings with sosec than the government does, but I could see some boomer types feeling there should be retirement insurance (though i prefer personal saving and investment).   Medicare....no idea where most of the red falls on that one, no experience with it
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: DefNotAnInsiderNopeNoWay on June 09, 2022, 01:29:19 PM
Wow, you're just a psychopath who likes to see people die, regardelss of whose side they're on aren't you? Yep, you are a real modern American Republican.

You just summed up at least 80% of the usual suspects around here, they are all mostly just social outcasts who are unwelcome in nearly all other related gaming forums since, you know, those places have standards and rules to moderate extremists and violence junkies. Frankly though, you really shouldn't be too surprised, folks gather here because it's an echo chamber where regressive, mentally, and emotionally damaged gamers can openly circlejerk about the idea of genocide and civil war.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 09, 2022, 01:30:58 PM
Wow, you're just a psychopath who likes to see people die, regardelss of whose side they're on aren't you? Yep, you are a real modern American Republican.

You just summed up at least 80% of the usual suspects around here, they are all mostly just social outcasts who are unwelcome in nearly all other related gaming forums since, you know, those places have standards and rules to moderate extremists and violence junkies. Frankly though, you really shouldn't be too surprised, folks gather here because it's an echo chamber where regressive, mentally, and emotionally damaged gamers can openly circlejerk about the idea of genocide and civil war.

  From what I see of you, you fit right in with your description.  Welcome.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 01:54:37 PM
There's nothing wrong with this.

Reps have been using Gerrymandering, voter suppression, court packing, constant fillibustering, etc to block democracy from working for over a decade now. It's perfectly reasonable for dems to be enraged by reps sabotaging democracy, trying to turn America into a one party country thru every dirty trick they can smugly pull whilea accusing dems of what the reps are doing.

I'm kinda surprised the war hasn't started yet and don't think it will take much longer for it to. I think the best possible future for America is a real civil war that separates it into blue and  red countries. Let the reps have the confederate states, plus the ones that split in half to pack the senate. Hell,  let them have Utah too. The war between mormons and Baptists will be fun to watch.

The democrats keep the rest. The reps can call their country donaldtrumpistan, murkkka, jeezuzland, whatever. If the reps retake the senate I think the balloon will go up.
Except almost none of that is true. Gerrymandering, sure. But both parties of evil engage in that, and it's following the rules both parties set up. Sure, the Republicans have come out a bit ahead this round, but it's part of the established -- and democratic -- game. Don't forget, the people who are truly disenfranchised by gerrymandering are the independents, not the uniparty half du jour. Both sides engage in court packing with equal fervor, when they have control of the presidency and the Senate. The Democrats chose not to get rid of the fillibuster, and there's nothing undemocratic about requiring a supermajority anyway. Claims of voter suppression are complete nonsense. Voting is ridiculously easy, and easier than it's ever been, and basically every democratic country except the US requires some form of ID to vote. The true story of voting over the last few years is that Democrats have changed the rules in their favor, by allowing mass and unrestricted early and mail-in voting. Which isn't "undemocratic" either, because (except in a few rare cases) they mostly did it by the rules, just like how the Republicans are trying to add voter ID requirements, using the rules.

And you're using this pack of lies to justify and defend the assassination of political opponents in a constitutional republic where the party you support controls the presidency, the House, the Senate, academia, education, traditional and social media, the military, the alphabet agencies, and more.

Fucking psychopath.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 02:03:26 PM
And I look forward to the red states suffering massive population drops once a pure rep government utterly eliminates sosec, medicare, food stamps, welfare, vaccination programs,  etc. and their people suffer the rule of a pure rep government.

And man, what till tge white nationalists  in trumpistan realize they they are now basically  corporate slaves!
What mad deluded world do you live in?

The Republicans couldn't even repeal the Affordable Care Act when they controlled congress and the presidency, the last time Medicare was expanded was under a Republican administration, Social Security is a third rail for both parties, and I can't think of a single Republican who opposes vaccination programs in general. The Republicans do nothing on their own, and when the Democrats want to pass something, team red gives team blue half of what they want on a silver platter. And remember, deregulation started under a Democrat (Carter), and it was another Democrat (Clinton) who was behind NAFTA, and every major Democrat prior to about 2012 was 100% in favor of Trump-equivalent immigration policies, abortion policies, and so on.

Also, how would any of that lead to a massive population drop?
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 02:25:19 PM
And I look forward to the red states suffering massive population drops once a pure rep government utterly eliminates sosec, medicare, food stamps, welfare, vaccination programs,  etc. and their people suffer the rule of a pure rep government.

And man, what till tge white nationalists  in trumpistan realize they they are now basically  corporate slaves!
LOL. Now that's funny. You should write for Kimmel.

  In a way he is correct, there would be a smaller population, but the drop would be up front when all the people who want the state to take care of them opt out and go to the blue states.  Red people have no issues with vax...some issues with massive medical experiments, but not a legit vax.  Food stamps, welfare ...maybe sosec he might be right.  I know I could much better with 15 percent of my earnings with sosec than the government does, but I could see some boomer types feeling there should be retirement insurance (though i prefer personal saving and investment).   Medicare....no idea where most of the red falls on that one, no experience with it
Conversely, a lot of companies might move to red states because of the expected rise in taxes. I don't think it's clear which way the population would shift. It really depends on how it's carved up and how people react. Remember, even the bluest of states like California have a lot of red voters (for instance, the inland third of the state is almost entirely red, but has zero voting power and zero representation at the state level).

I don't think anybody knows where the Republicans stand on most issues, these days. They're the party of reaction not of action, and certainly haven't opposed Social Security or Medicare in any way, as the resident blue idiot seems to think. Plus, they did things like vote for a massive expansion of employment insurance and food stamps, so it's completely off the rails to claim they'd somehow abolish either welfare or food stamps.

Not to mention, much of the reaction by the public has been against Republicans, not just Democrats. It's inchoate and flailing around instead of taking concrete directed action, but people are rejecting the Washington establishment in general, i.e. the uniparty. Though to be fair, the Democrats have gotten so crazy that the opposition to the uniparty seems relatively muted in comparison. But then again, it's clear what people care about is the economy, and things like abortion or even grooming is a distraction by comparison.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: jeff37923 on June 09, 2022, 02:34:44 PM
And I look forward to the red states suffering massive population drops once a pure rep government utterly eliminates sosec, medicare, food stamps, welfare, vaccination programs,  etc. and their people suffer the rule of a pure rep government.

And man, what till tge white nationalists  in trumpistan realize they they are now basically  corporate slaves!

You're just not very bright and pretty far from reality, aren't you? I mean, you are like a poorly written anime character who is the comic relief of the show.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Battlemaster on June 09, 2022, 06:50:50 PM
A guy who uses don quixote as his avatar talking about being far from reality?
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 09, 2022, 07:19:17 PM
A guy who uses don quixote as his avatar talking about being far from reality?

Um...
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: GeekyBugle on June 09, 2022, 09:18:20 PM
A guy who uses don quixote as his avatar talking about being far from reality?

Um...

Exactly.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: jhkim on June 09, 2022, 10:06:37 PM
Has everyone seen the latest poll from the Southern Poverty Law Center?
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas
Approval for "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy":
...
  • Younger Rep men: 34%
Wow. Clearly a problem among Republicans.

  • Younger Dem women: 32%
Wait... Democratic women?

  • Younger Rep women: 40%
What the hell, that's even higher.

  • Younger Dem men: 44%
What the ever loving hell?

As I read that, it is roughly even between Democrats and Republicans at about 37% each. That's based on Democrats being around 55% women, and Republicans around 48% women. There were three other questions on political violence. Here are the numbers for younger Democrats and Republicans for each of them, with averages.

Approval of "participating in a political revolution even if it is violent in its ends"
Younger Democrats: 37% / 42% -> 39% overall
Younger Republicans: 30% / 45% -> 38% overall

Approval of "threatening a politician who is harming the country or our democracy"
Younger Democrats: 25% / 40% -> 32% overall
Younger Republicans: 31% / 46% -> 39% overall

Approval of "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy"
Younger Democrats: 32% / 44% -> 37% overall
Younger Republicans: 40% / 34% -> 37% overall

My takeaway is that this isn't either a Democrat or Republican problem. It is a problem with the younger members of both generations.

From my impression, the key is that both sides have been fed the narrative that the other side are thoroughly evil and will cheat to achieve their ends. Therefore, violence is the only solution to rid the country of the insanity of the other side. We can see this just as much in SHARK's rants as in Battlemaster's rants. They would both justify their call for violence that the other side is so evil and unscrupulous that peaceful means can't work to overcome them.

My main hope is that the young generation are growing up on Twitter and TikTok, but neither side have experienced much actual violence in their lives. We've seen an increase in political violence in recent years - but thankfully we haven't had the rash of assassinations yet like what we saw in the 1960s (JFK, RFK, MLK, MX), and I think the overall political violence is less than back then as well. Once violence starts getting personal, I think neither side has much stomach for it.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: bromides on June 09, 2022, 10:22:34 PM
There are few leaders in both sides that are capable of reaching across the aisle. Most are hated by the other side, and the ones that aren't are hated by their own side. (Manchin and Sinema for Dems, for instance. Is McCain still a thing in the Republicans? Any non Trump legislator will have issues right now.)

We are in a particularly bad era of leadership, with a lot of self serving pricks on both sides.

Thank God for Joe Manchin. He's saved the republic from itself. Kyrsten Sinema, also, but to a lesser extent than the daggers that have been thrown at Manchin.

Edit: of course, the ones the young hate the most? Manchin, Sinema. They'll stalk Sinema into bathrooms like they'll go to a Supreme Court justice's house. If the justices get more bodyguards, I hope Joe Manchin gets a shitload as well.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 10:44:52 PM
My takeaway is that this isn't either a Democrat or Republican problem. It is a problem with the younger members of both generations.
So you read my post.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 09, 2022, 10:45:53 PM
Thank God for Joe Manchin.
Manchin is as good a Democrat as Romney is a Republican.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: SHARK on June 09, 2022, 11:59:43 PM
Has everyone seen the latest poll from the Southern Poverty Law Center?
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2022/06/01/poll-finds-support-great-replacement-hard-right-ideas
Approval for "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy":
...
  • Younger Rep men: 34%
Wow. Clearly a problem among Republicans.

  • Younger Dem women: 32%
Wait... Democratic women?

  • Younger Rep women: 40%
What the hell, that's even higher.

  • Younger Dem men: 44%
What the ever loving hell?

As I read that, it is roughly even between Democrats and Republicans at about 37% each. That's based on Democrats being around 55% women, and Republicans around 48% women. There were three other questions on political violence. Here are the numbers for younger Democrats and Republicans for each of them, with averages.

Approval of "participating in a political revolution even if it is violent in its ends"
Younger Democrats: 37% / 42% -> 39% overall
Younger Republicans: 30% / 45% -> 38% overall

Approval of "threatening a politician who is harming the country or our democracy"
Younger Democrats: 25% / 40% -> 32% overall
Younger Republicans: 31% / 46% -> 39% overall

Approval of "assassinating a politician who is harming the country or our democracy"
Younger Democrats: 32% / 44% -> 37% overall
Younger Republicans: 40% / 34% -> 37% overall

My takeaway is that this isn't either a Democrat or Republican problem. It is a problem with the younger members of both generations.

From my impression, the key is that both sides have been fed the narrative that the other side are thoroughly evil and will cheat to achieve their ends. Therefore, violence is the only solution to rid the country of the insanity of the other side. We can see this just as much in SHARK's rants as in Battlemaster's rants. They would both justify their call for violence that the other side is so evil and unscrupulous that peaceful means can't work to overcome them.

My main hope is that the young generation are growing up on Twitter and TikTok, but neither side have experienced much actual violence in their lives. We've seen an increase in political violence in recent years - but thankfully we haven't had the rash of assassinations yet like what we saw in the 1960s (JFK, RFK, MLK, MX), and I think the overall political violence is less than back then as well. Once violence starts getting personal, I think neither side has much stomach for it.

Greetings!

Marxists need to be purified by pain.

There is no playing grab-ass with the fucking Marxists. Apparently, many stupid people believe that Marxism is merely another political perspective, with equal merit to classic Americanism and Western Civilization.

Strange, we don't see mobs of Liberals lining up to cock-suck and praise Nazis and Naziism.

Oh yes, but somehow, Marxism is not as bad, amirite?

Marxism needs to be opposed and resisted just as much as the Allies opposed Naziism. In truth, even more so.

Being a Marxist, or a fucking Marxist fan-boi is not morally acceptable, let alone being politically or ideologically respectable. These precepts make virtually the entire worldview of Leftists absolutely illegitimate, and ultimately, very dark and evil. Western Civilization in general, and the American Republic that was provided for us by our Founding Fathers and ancestors before us, is under assault by the Leftist-Marxists in our country, within our midst.

Somehow, though, some people are stupid enough to believe that we should make nice and kissy-face with these psychotic, depraved Marxist zombies.

*Laughing* Enjoy the fucking DECLINE!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Mistwell on June 10, 2022, 12:16:03 AM
Thank God for Joe Manchin.
Manchin is as good a Democrat as Romney is a Republican.

So he's great is what you're saying.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 10, 2022, 01:28:04 AM
Thank God for Joe Manchin.
Manchin is as good a Democrat as Romney is a Republican.

So he's great is what you're saying.
If you're a Democrat.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: jhkim on June 10, 2022, 01:47:02 AM
Marxism needs to be opposed and resisted just as much as the Allies opposed Naziism. In truth, even more so.

Being a Marxist, or a fucking Marxist fan-boi is not morally acceptable, let alone being politically or ideologically respectable. These precepts make virtually the entire worldview of Leftists absolutely illegitimate, and ultimately, very dark and evil. Western Civilization in general, and the American Republic that was provided for us by our Founding Fathers and ancestors before us, is under assault by the Leftist-Marxists in our country, within our midst.

But you advocate that Marxists should be *killed* for their political beliefs, simply because they are Marxist, like your frequent expressions that they be bathed in napalm. That's exactly the problem of political violence. The idea that because someone has beliefs you don't respect, they should be killed.

I don't agree with either Marxism or Nazism - but I also believe that both are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, including the right to life as well as the right to free speech.

Resisting opposing politics can be done without mass murder of the opposing side.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: jeff37923 on June 10, 2022, 05:06:45 AM
A guy who uses don quixote as his avatar talking about being far from reality?

At least I am not all about the Battlemasturbation....

Fap fap fap.....
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: jeff37923 on June 10, 2022, 05:11:30 AM
Marxism needs to be opposed and resisted just as much as the Allies opposed Naziism. In truth, even more so.

Being a Marxist, or a fucking Marxist fan-boi is not morally acceptable, let alone being politically or ideologically respectable. These precepts make virtually the entire worldview of Leftists absolutely illegitimate, and ultimately, very dark and evil. Western Civilization in general, and the American Republic that was provided for us by our Founding Fathers and ancestors before us, is under assault by the Leftist-Marxists in our country, within our midst.

But you advocate that Marxists should be *killed* for their political beliefs, simply because they are Marxist, like your frequent expressions that they be bathed in napalm. That's exactly the problem of political violence. The idea that because someone has beliefs you don't respect, they should be killed.

I don't agree with either Marxism or Nazism - but I also believe that both are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, including the right to life as well as the right to free speech.

Resisting opposing politics can be done without mass murder of the opposing side.

Wait, you think that both Marxism and Nazism should be respected and entitled to the same rights as everyone else?

I think that there are a few million Jews and Russians and Chinese and Cambodians who would like to have a word with you.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: jeff37923 on June 10, 2022, 05:12:46 AM
A guy who uses don quixote as his avatar talking about being far from reality?

Um...

Exactly.

I thought that you had me on ignore.

Oh, well. Once a fan, always a fan.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: oggsmash on June 10, 2022, 06:57:41 AM
  Thing with Marxism....when they have footholds in all institutions and are making policy and shaping minds, it really isnt about respecting an opinion or the right to voice it in public anymore.   It is more like finding a treatment for cancer.  Marxist-revolutionary types smartened up a long time ago and even their radicals like Ayers figured out they can do a SHITLOAD more damage from a college professor post than they can trying to rob banks or putting bombs in DC.   I think trying to fight people who are VERY good at subverting democracy with democracy is a really good way to lose that fight. 

   I do not know that I want people who simply want to "reshape in their own image" America shot, but I can say I certainly prefer that they go away to me and mine living in their "reimagining".   Marxist CANNOT build a society or nation, it seems all they can do is subvert, pervert, and corrupt a society.  I get the idea is to collapse and rebuild in their image, but shit....after MANY collapses of their image you would think they would get the message their structure is shit.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 10, 2022, 09:07:23 AM
Marxism needs to be opposed and resisted just as much as the Allies opposed Naziism. In truth, even more so.

Being a Marxist, or a fucking Marxist fan-boi is not morally acceptable, let alone being politically or ideologically respectable. These precepts make virtually the entire worldview of Leftists absolutely illegitimate, and ultimately, very dark and evil. Western Civilization in general, and the American Republic that was provided for us by our Founding Fathers and ancestors before us, is under assault by the Leftist-Marxists in our country, within our midst.

But you advocate that Marxists should be *killed* for their political beliefs, simply because they are Marxist, like your frequent expressions that they be bathed in napalm. That's exactly the problem of political violence. The idea that because someone has beliefs you don't respect, they should be killed.

I don't agree with either Marxism or Nazism - but I also believe that both are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, including the right to life as well as the right to free speech.

Resisting opposing politics can be done without mass murder of the opposing side.

Wait, you think that both Marxism and Nazism should be respected and entitled to the same rights as everyone else?

I think that there are a few million Jews and Russians and Chinese and Cambodians who would like to have a word with you.

You forgot the Vietnamese, Cubans and Koreans. We can't be exclusionary when it comes to who Marxists have killed and enslaved...
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 10, 2022, 09:10:52 AM
  Thing with Marxism....when they have footholds in all institutions and are making policy and shaping minds, it really isnt about respecting an opinion or the right to voice it in public anymore.   It is more like finding a treatment for cancer.  Marxist-revolutionary types smartened up a long time ago and even their radicals like Ayers figured out they can do a SHITLOAD more damage from a college professor post than they can trying to rob banks or putting bombs in DC.   I think trying to fight people who are VERY good at subverting democracy with democracy is a really good way to lose that fight. 

   I do not know that I want people who simply want to "reshape in their own image" America shot, but I can say I certainly prefer that they go away to me and mine living in their "reimagining".   Marxist CANNOT build a society or nation, it seems all they can do is subvert, pervert, and corrupt a society.  I get the idea is to collapse and rebuild in their image, but shit....after MANY collapses of their image you would think they would get the message their structure is shit.

They, like all authoritarian political types, rely upon the general trusting nature and morality of western civilization to infiltrate and conspire.  People are way too "oh, if we just let them have *this*, they'll be satisfied ". We have to rapidly rethink this as a society.  Sone of us understand this, but most people are spoiled and soft because they have no survival needs to meet anymore. You need to take the attitude of NOT. ONE. INCH. when it comes to dealing with leftists.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: bromides on June 10, 2022, 11:13:19 AM
Thank God for Joe Manchin.
Manchin is as good a Democrat as Romney is a Republican.
I don't have a problem with Romney.

I'm not 100% aboard the Trump train, nor am I 100% against Trump.

The anti-Trumpers have a lot to answer for.
Trump clearly would have been a better choice for this country based on what we've seen from Biden, which is a shit-show of historic proportions. If Trump was a shitshow (which I don't think he was), Biden's epic disaster movie of a Presidency has to go down as some of the worst Imperial governance this side of Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: 3catcircus on June 10, 2022, 11:39:30 AM
Thank God for Joe Manchin.
Manchin is as good a Democrat as Romney is a Republican.
I don't have a problem with Romney.

I'm not 100% aboard the Trump train, nor am I 100% against Trump.

The anti-Trumpers have a lot to answer for.
Trump clearly would have been a better choice for this country based on what we've seen from Biden, which is a shit-show of historic proportions. If Trump was a shitshow (which I don't think he was), Biden's epic disaster movie of a Presidency has to go down as some of the worst Imperial governance this side of Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus.

Trump's only problem was that he was brutally honest and crass, not playing the politics game like all the cunts in DC - a veneer of genteel politeness plastered over ass-stabbery and corruption.

His one mistake was not shit-canning *every* political appointee and petty bureaucrat that he had the legal authority to immediately upon entering office, compounded by allowing swamp-dwellers to infiltrate his cabinet.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: bromides on June 10, 2022, 12:21:14 PM
I think Trump was bumbling and arrogant, but his mistakes ultimately didn't cost us anywhere close to what Biden is costing us with his brand of bumbling governance.

People mistook Trump's arrogant bumbling as an aberration.

The thing is, ALL Presidents are arrogant bumblers by nature... people think that their governors are the best of us, when they aren't.
The illusion of wisdom in leadership is simply an illusion, like the official marble portraits of Roman emperors being distinctly different than their familial/casual portraits.

"The adults are back in charge"? Well, these adults under Biden are incompetent, and if they think they are better adults than the previous set, then they're even more arrogant than Trump ever was.

Biden is not only worse than Trump ever was... Biden also thinks he's better than Trump was. It's a combination of incompetence, stupidity, and arrogance that exceeds those "qualities" in the Trump regime.

I ultimately think that Trump's arrogance is normal for anyone who seeks out high office. (You need to be deranged to become a President, a CEO, a Senator, a Speaker of the House.) I see Trump as a normal American leader, and Biden as a below-average/mentally deficient normal American.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: jhkim on June 10, 2022, 04:11:27 PM
Resisting opposing politics can be done without mass murder of the opposing side.

Wait, you think that both Marxism and Nazism should be respected and entitled to the same rights as everyone else?

I think that there are a few million Jews and Russians and Chinese and Cambodians who would like to have a word with you.

I dd not say "respected". I said that people shouldn't be murdered simply for their beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are respectable or not.

Authoritarianism comes in many forms - Nazism and Marxism are only two. There have also been plenty of anti-communist dictators and regimes. Jailing and killing your political opponents to suppress Nazism or Marxism isn't loving freedom - it's just another excuse for authoritarianism.

Killing thousands of people because of their Marxist beliefs is just as heinous killing thousands for their failure to adhere to Marxism. They're both murderous authoritarianism.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: Pat on June 10, 2022, 04:26:44 PM
The thing is, ALL Presidents are arrogant bumblers by nature... people think that their governors are the best of us, when they aren't.
The illusion of wisdom in leadership is simply an illusion, like the official marble portraits of Roman emperors being distinctly different than their familial/casual portraits.
Even if they were the best of us, they're no smarter than an ant, at least compared to 250 million adults acting as a distributed super-brain. Decisions need to be pushed down as far as possible, because people know their own area and needs better than someone 3,000 miles away, and they're also far more invested and can spend more than a nanosecond on those own issues.

Though I think the reverence is more pervasive and insidious than you're suggesting, because unwarranted and uncritical reverence for leaders is only the tip of the iceberg. We live in the world where most people default to thinking the government is selfless and here to help, instead of recognizing the government is made of people with their own interests and incentives, which will almost always take priority over selfless ideals. They checks and transparency, not blind trust.
Title: Re: Assassination Plot on President W. Bush
Post by: DocJones on June 22, 2022, 04:56:50 PM
The right js screaming about possible attempts at McConnell, a possible Isis attempt at bush for murdering hundreds if thousands if Iraqis, a possible shot at gorshits, but how much outrage did they express when a member of the right endorsed murdering 72 million Americans?
His proposal wouldn't do any good, as dead democrats still vote.