This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?  (Read 6831 times)

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5040
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2020, 08:57:34 PM »
jhkim apparently thinks that positing hypotheticals is "threatening him" directly. Par for the course for Internet leftists.

I'm not threatening him, he poses absolutely zero threat whatsoever. Just another dude on the Internet who lives in verifiable utopia (i.e. neighborhood in America without "those people") that somehow believes any perceived slight is reprehensible behavior. Sounds like a fun guy to hang out with...I am calling out ANTIFA/BLM/communists, etc., who are trying to bring violence to my streets. Of course I'm joking about the .223, anyway; a K-Bar never runs out of ammo and keeps your eardrums intact.

Greetings!

Exactly, Brad. I understood your commentary to be directed at the SJW and BLM mobs in the general sense.

I never saw it as a personal threat directed to Jhkim or anyone in particular.

I have been even more explicit. Damn fucking right I am ready to defend myself against any of these cock-sucking Marxists. Nothing hypothetical about it at all my friend. We have to defend our country and our communities from these fucking animals. Geesus. I have a friend, he's a policeman that also works part time at my local gun shop. He sold me ammunition and gear for my Glock 45 and my AR-15, too. He understood just fine when I told him we have to prepare to stand against these fucking rebels taking over our streets and communities all across our land. HE is ready for the exact same potential conflict--just like my neighbor, also a local policeman, and well, my whole neighborhood. July 4, I talked with over a dozen members of my neighborhood--men and women alike, younger, older, and in between--they are all arming the fuck up for whatever is soon to be coming. Everyone knows shit is changing in our country, and changing fast.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

consolcwby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
  • Feel the despair!
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2020, 09:13:51 PM »
jhkim apparently thinks that positing hypotheticals is "threatening him" directly. Par for the course for Internet leftists.

I'm not threatening him, he poses absolutely zero threat whatsoever. Just another dude on the Internet who lives in verifiable utopia (i.e. neighborhood in America without "those people") that somehow believes any perceived slight is reprehensible behavior. Sounds like a fun guy to hang out with...I am calling out ANTIFA/BLM/communists, etc., who are trying to bring violence to my streets. Of course I'm joking about the .223, anyway; a K-Bar never runs out of ammo and keeps your eardrums intact.
In the early 90s, I was banned off of a usenet channel for challenging MR. KIM. After several emails, he claimed it wasn't he who banned me, and stated that there was no such thing as FREE SPEECH. It is SPEECH which poses a threat to him. I warned him "what goes around comes around", and after HE was banned I got my ban lifted - even though I never went back.  I'm keeping my word to him though - he told me never to contact him again, and so I never did. He took great offense of me saying that any codification of cheating rules for the GM/PLAYERS would be FUD. It's in the name of his system though.... FUDge.

As far as being blacklisted: When I worked at a datacenter we had some NSA contractors come in. They asked for me and requested me to do some illegal things. I refused. They threatened me, I still refused. THey threatened my family, I refused. I lost my job as well as my doctors and emergency services access in town. I've had people come to my house with guns ready to use them, and I also had the police threaten me with physical (non-gun) violence. I go out, I'm threatened. So, I've been 'in quarantine' since 2013.  I'm waiting for them to come. I believe no matter what happens they will come. And I'm ready. You see, long ago, I took an oath to my country. And I am being punished for it. I'm also on the dole, but I'm just getting back what I paid in for all those years. With all this said, I'm trying to write my book on RPGs I've been planning for the last 25 years. Takes my mind off of the bullshit.
Anyway, Shits about to get REAL. And it's about time.
"Let's get this over with, one way or another!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------                    snip                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                  https://youtu.be/ShaxpuohBWs?si

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2020, 09:21:55 PM »
In the early 90s, I was banned off of a usenet channel for challenging MR. KIM. After several emails, he claimed it wasn't he who banned me, and stated that there was no such thing as FREE SPEECH. It is SPEECH which poses a threat to him. I warned him "what goes around comes around", and after HE was banned I got my ban lifted - even though I never went back.  I'm keeping my word to him though - he told me never to contact him again, and so I never did. He took great offense of me saying that any codification of cheating rules for the GM/PLAYERS would be FUD. It's in the name of his system though.... FUDge.
Bullshit. Usenet doesn't have channels (that's IRC), there were very few moderated newsgroups and none of them had a significant RPG community, and it was Steffan O'Sullivan who created Fudge.

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4032
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2020, 09:33:48 PM »
I did some digging around to investigate the death threat against jhkim and I found that there are no wide spread threats being leveled at jhkim.

Therefore I judge this suggestion to be: False
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2020, 10:16:14 PM »
In the early 90s, I was banned off of a usenet channel for challenging MR. KIM. After several emails, he claimed it wasn't he who banned me, and stated that there was no such thing as FREE SPEECH. It is SPEECH which poses a threat to him. I warned him "what goes around comes around", and after HE was banned I got my ban lifted - even though I never went back.  I'm keeping my word to him though - he told me never to contact him again, and so I never did. He took great offense of me saying that any codification of cheating rules for the GM/PLAYERS would be FUD. It's in the name of his system though.... FUDge.
Bullshit. Usenet doesn't have channels (that's IRC), there were very few moderated newsgroups and none of them had a significant RPG community, and it was Steffan O'Sullivan who created Fudge.
Slight clarification, Pat. It was overwhelmingly Steffan O'Sullivan who created Fudge. However, he did start off Fudge as a community project on rec.games.design in 1992, and gave other posters credit for their part in the discussion. I do have a tiny credit in the book for my contributions to discussion there. The Usenet archives are still available in Google Groups. Here's an Fudge thread I found from 1992, for example, where Steffan and I talked:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.design/c/Pif7qKIFrNg/m/LCMQrAFyMxEJ

I think rec.games.design was moderated, but I definitely don't recall being banned or trying to ban anyone else. It was not in the slightest political at the time. consolcwby - I can be a jerk sometimes now, and sometimes back then, but I don't remember anything like this.

consolcwby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
  • Feel the despair!
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2020, 10:21:08 PM »
In the early 90s, I was banned off of a usenet channel for challenging MR. KIM. After several emails, he claimed it wasn't he who banned me, and stated that there was no such thing as FREE SPEECH. It is SPEECH which poses a threat to him. I warned him "what goes around comes around", and after HE was banned I got my ban lifted - even though I never went back.  I'm keeping my word to him though - he told me never to contact him again, and so I never did. He took great offense of me saying that any codification of cheating rules for the GM/PLAYERS would be FUD. It's in the name of his system though.... FUDge.
Bullshit. Usenet doesn't have channels (that's IRC), there were very few moderated newsgroups and none of them had a significant RPG community, and it was Steffan O'Sullivan who created Fudge.
"Usenet doesn't have channels" <---This is weak weak weak. What word did you expect me to use? BOARD. Fine? BORED. OKAY? Fucking troll, I used to login through Software Creations BBS, if it would help you to discredit me. Idiot.Fine.
Conversation on usenet was directly responsible for 3 things: 1) Breaking the hobbyists up into 3 distinct groups (simulationists, game-ists, and narrative-ists) If my memory is correct, Kim was under the belief that to investigate what was happening to RPGs, namely it being overtaken by other hobbies, like MtG, it was necessary to breakdown how people played RPGs. He was insistent that heavy simulation and light game were the bulk of what was wrong.  2) Besides the spam-bots, there were NOT that many people there. However, there were times when postings were hot and heavy. I was there because I lost my group and wanted to understand WHY this was happening. Many people (including Kim) had great ideas which would become shut down once it was determined there were only 3 ways to play, instead of the (I believe) six which were being discussed. 3) The Forge was created on that board. The forge DDOS'd my personal server way back when and kept me banned through out the early to mid 2000s. Mainly because I've use the same username since 1987.
You want hard physical proof of what I'm saying? I DONT HAVE ANY EXCEPT MY MEMORY. But don't worry. I'll be shot for my beliefs and integrity soon enough. People like you? You'll eat each other ALIVE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------                    snip                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                  https://youtu.be/ShaxpuohBWs?si

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2020, 10:49:20 PM »
Conversation on usenet was directly responsible for 3 things: 1) Breaking the hobbyists up into 3 distinct groups (simulationists, game-ists, and narrative-ists) If my memory is correct, Kim was under the belief that to investigate what was happening to RPGs, namely it being overtaken by other hobbies, like MtG, it was necessary to breakdown how people played RPGs. He was insistent that heavy simulation and light game were the bulk of what was wrong.  2) Besides the spam-bots, there were NOT that many people there. However, there were times when postings were hot and heavy. I was there because I lost my group and wanted to understand WHY this was happening. Many people (including Kim) had great ideas which would become shut down once it was determined there were only 3 ways to play, instead of the (I believe) six which were being discussed. 3) The Forge was created on that board. The forge DDOS'd my personal server way back when and kept me banned through out the early to mid 2000s. Mainly because I've use the same username since 1987.
You want hard physical proof of what I'm saying? I DONT HAVE ANY EXCEPT MY MEMORY. But don't worry. I'll be shot for my beliefs and integrity soon enough. People like you? You'll eat each other ALIVE.
consolcwby - You don't have to just rely on your memory. Old Usenet discussions are still available in several places - most notably Google Groups. It was cool to look through these again. Here is a discussion thread from 1999 about the Threefold Model, for example:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.frp.advocacy/c/sDVVLLhIDDw/m/1Kv2qOHKDwEJ

Did you have a variant spelling of your username back then? I couldn't find it on search. My intent with the Threefold Model was never to say what was wrong, and I didn't have any problem with heavy simulation and light game. I've also got a bunch of articles documenting about what happened there - including links to some of the original discussion. Here's one on the origin of the Threefold Model you mentioned (coined by Mary Kuhner).

http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/threefold/origin.html

The Threefold Model was created on Usenet rec.games.frp.advocacy, but The Forge was not created there. The ideas from rec.games.frp.advocacy went on to a forum called The Gaming Outpost, and Ron Edwards (founder of The Forge) took part in discussion there before creating his own website.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2020, 11:06:53 PM »
Slight clarification, Pat. It was overwhelmingly Steffan O'Sullivan who created Fudge. However, he did start off Fudge as a community project on rec.games.design in 1992, and gave other posters credit for their part in the discussion. I do have a tiny credit in the book for my contributions to discussion there. The Usenet archives are still available in Google Groups. Here's an Fudge thread I found from 1992, for example, where Steffan and I talked:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.design/c/Pif7qKIFrNg/m/LCMQrAFyMxEJ

I think rec.games.design was moderated....
I know, I was there. Design wasn't moderated, anymore than your more usual stomping ground of *.advocacy.


jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2020, 11:20:22 PM »
I think rec.games.design was moderated....
I know, I was there. Design wasn't moderated, anymore than your more usual stomping ground of *.advocacy.

OK, maybe I'm just misremembering there.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2020, 12:30:35 AM »
"Usenet doesn't have channels" <---This is weak weak weak. What word did you expect me to use? BOARD. Fine? BORED. OKAY? Fucking troll, I used to login through Software Creations BBS, if it would help you to discredit me. Idiot.Fine.
Conversation on usenet was directly responsible for 3 things: 1) Breaking the hobbyists up into 3 distinct groups (simulationists, game-ists, and narrative-ists) If my memory is correct, Kim was under the belief that to investigate what was happening to RPGs, namely it being overtaken by other hobbies, like MtG, it was necessary to breakdown how people played RPGs. He was insistent that heavy simulation and light game were the bulk of what was wrong.  2) Besides the spam-bots, there were NOT that many people there. However, there were times when postings were hot and heavy. I was there because I lost my group and wanted to understand WHY this was happening. Many people (including Kim) had great ideas which would become shut down once it was determined there were only 3 ways to play, instead of the (I believe) six which were being discussed. 3) The Forge was created on that board. The forge DDOS'd my personal server way back when and kept me banned through out the early to mid 2000s. Mainly because I've use the same username since 1987.
You want hard physical proof of what I'm saying? I DONT HAVE ANY EXCEPT MY MEMORY. But don't worry. I'll be shot for my beliefs and integrity soon enough. People like you? You'll eat each other ALIVE.
The correct term is newsgroup, not channel. Which, as I mentioned, was the term used in another contemporary mode of communication, IRC. And not board, either.

You also seem unfamiliar with the history of the Threefold Model. The Threefold Model was descriptive not proscriptive. It didn't say how you should play, it just tried to describe how different groups of people did play, or liked to play. The whole point was to create a bridge between the "they're doing it WRONG" reaction when someone is playing with a different set of priorities and the understanding that they're just doing it differently. All playstyles are valid. It was also focused on decision points, not styles. People might have tendencies, but there weren't hard barriers. Everyone made decisions that were gamist, simulationist, and dramatist. The big weakness was a lack of posters to represent the gamist axis (Gleichman and Knutsen tried), so dramatist and simulationist got more attention (Theatrix was popular). Nobody shut anybody down who wanted to play a different way, that was utterly alien to the culture. Different axes were one of the most common topics, with the Threefold Model being pared down from models with more. The most common suggestion was a social axis, but there was never a consensus because it was more about what you did outside the game than in the game.

All of the one true wayism, the attempt to define different playstyles, the attempt to classify games rather than decision points within games, and the clear preference of one axis (narrativism nee dramatism) over the others, and even the focus on creating games, was from the Forge. Which was considerably later, and an entirely different group of people. So you're conflating completely different things.

All of which means your memory is muddled, or you weren't there.

And I have no fucking idea what "people like you" means, except you clearly have no integrity.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 12:35:35 AM by Pat »

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2020, 12:47:45 AM »
The Threefold Model was created on Usenet rec.games.frp.advocacy, but The Forge was not created there. The ideas from rec.games.frp.advocacy went on to a forum called The Gaming Outpost, and Ron Edwards (founder of The Forge) took part in discussion there before creating his own website.
I almost forgot about the Gaming Outpost. I read some of their articles and reviews (?), but never followed their forums.

consolcwby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
  • Feel the despair!
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2020, 07:35:08 PM »
Allow mere to put it this way: I stopped using usenet around 1997.  My ban came in 1994-95. I first heard about 3-fold ON the forge. Interestingly, I have no proof. Isn't it amazing. I MUST be a troll. And I didn't think it was .advocacy, I thought it was just rec.games.frp. Again, I must be a troll. I must be a troll because I don't remember EXACTLY where I was June 2nd 1991 at  1:40pm So, I must not have been there. I remember watching TV on July 4th 1976, but I must be a troll, because I don't remember the  reporter's name. I don't remember if it was ABC. Oops, I mean ABC NEWS. I must be a troll.

Therefore - BAN ME. I MUST BE A TROLL.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------                    snip                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                  https://youtu.be/ShaxpuohBWs?si

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2020, 07:53:18 PM »
Allow mere to put it this way: I stopped using usenet around 1997.  My ban came in 1994-95. I first heard about 3-fold ON the forge. Interestingly, I have no proof. Isn't it amazing. I MUST be a troll. And I didn't think it was .advocacy, I thought it was just rec.games.frp. Again, I must be a troll. I must be a troll because I don't remember EXACTLY where I was June 2nd 1991 at  1:40pm So, I must not have been there. I remember watching TV on July 4th 1976, but I must be a troll, because I don't remember the  reporter's name. I don't remember if it was ABC. Oops, I mean ABC NEWS. I must be a troll.

Therefore - BAN ME. I MUST BE A TROLL.
I don't think you could be more of a drama queen if you tried.

Even if you were there, and just have a terrible memory, there's no way your specific claims can be trusted. You've simply made too many errors, both small and large. Most likely, you're confusing multiple events and people.

Here's another: If you left Usenet in 1999, and first heard about the Threefold Model on the Forge, then there's no way you could have discussed the Threefold Model on Usenet, because the Forge wasn't created until 2001. Incidentally, rec.games.frp wasn't a newsgroup, it was just part of the tree-like naming structure. The specific newsgroups were rec.games.frp.dnd, rec.games.frp.gurps, rec.games.frp.misc, and others, including rec.games.frp.advocacy.

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5040
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2020, 09:33:00 PM »
Greetings!

Holy fuck! Who the hell cares about what Usernet group or website anyone belonged to 25 years ago, what the fucking Forge did, or what obscure conversations someone had then? I mean really, it doesn't involve anyone else here, beyond that, it was 20 years ago or more, not on this website, and who gives a fuck about it now?

Some of the things people attempt to argue about here can be so obscure and petty. Even entirely irrelevant. Come on, guys. Let the past go. It was some ancient days of interwebs glory that is long past, and no one gives a fuck about now. We are HERE, on RPGsite.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

consolcwby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
  • Feel the despair!
Re: Are you ready to be blacklisted by the tolerant fascists?
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2020, 10:00:19 PM »
Allow mere to put it this way: I stopped using usenet around 1997.  My ban came in 1994-95. I first heard about 3-fold ON the forge. Interestingly, I have no proof. Isn't it amazing. I MUST be a troll. And I didn't think it was .advocacy, I thought it was just rec.games.frp. Again, I must be a troll. I must be a troll because I don't remember EXACTLY where I was June 2nd 1991 at  1:40pm So, I must not have been there. I remember watching TV on July 4th 1976, but I must be a troll, because I don't remember the  reporter's name. I don't remember if it was ABC. Oops, I mean ABC NEWS. I must be a troll.

Therefore - BAN ME. I MUST BE A TROLL.
Even if you were there, and just have a terrible memory, there's no way your specific claims can be trusted. You've simply made too many errors, both small and large. Most likely, you're confusing multiple events and people.

Here's another: If you left Usenet in 1999, and first heard about the Threefold Model on the Forge, then there's no way you could have discussed the Threefold Model on Usenet, because the Forge wasn't created until 2001. Incidentally, rec.games.frp wasn't a newsgroup, it was just part of the tree-like naming structure. The specific newsgroups were rec.games.frp.dnd, rec.games.frp.gurps, rec.games.frp.misc, and others, including rec.games.frp.advocacy.
I've been part of many sites and groups during the last 30+ years. And yeah, I don't doubt I have a bad memory. But I'm not going to ever stop fighting for my rights. Speech and assembly is a self evident right given to all freely by the Creator. People can argue against this - BUT, taking actions against those you disagree with? Em, no. THAT was my point. If I'm passionate about past slights or have lost the ability to remember the exact times or places, I admit my memory-hole errors and sensitivity on these matters. I am someone who understands the WHY. WHY all this B.S. is happening. (And @SHARK is right in his points. I just got caught up in the distraction. Easy to do, considering my current positionings.)

Moar (troll-speak, right?) Info:
https://twitter.com/RudyGiuliani/status/1326025858113433601
https://twitter.com/GitRDoneLarry/status/1326068463778066432
https://www.scribd.com/document/483622101/Barr-Memo-to-DOJ-on-voting-irregularities#from_embed

UNTIL the Electoral College meets, this election IS NOT OVER! This is the reality. Too bad most people, even here, do not accept the laws governing this election... this weakness makes the USA look weak.

(On a side note, an excellent movie - if your looking for a movie night to take your mind off all this: https://youtu.be/B5T7Gr5oJbM      Saw it at the theatre way back when with a special lady.)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 10:27:34 PM by consolcwby »
-----------------------------------------------------------------------                    snip                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                                  https://youtu.be/ShaxpuohBWs?si