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Author Topic: Appreciating an old blogpost  (Read 3652 times)

Validin

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Appreciating an old blogpost
« on: November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PM »
Not sure if this is the right place for it, but I just wanted to say thanks to the Pundit for this old but gold article about Warhammer and what sets it apart from what a proper medieval take on Law vs. Chaos should be.

https://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/01/chaos-vs-law-in-dark-albion-as-opposed.html

I was interested in Warhammer for a while, or tried to be, and that involved ignoring a lot of things about it. Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

As an added bonus, it's encouraged me to check out Dark Albion, which I'd heard of a long time ago, but had sorta forgotten about.

Thanks for the article, and old and brief as it is, I definitely think it's still relevant and still one of the best critiques of Warhammer and the mindset of modern socalled dark fantasy or historical fantasy settings painting the past with a smugly cynical post-modernist perspective.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 06:03:22 PM by Validin »

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2023, 09:44:28 PM »
Very helpful stuff, going to make good use of this analysis

Spinachcat

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2023, 03:17:25 AM »
That was a good article.

I'm an Old School Warhammer 1e GM and back in the 1e setting, Chaos was very bad news, not the auto-winner which infected the setting in later editions. In 1e, there were several gods opposed to Chaos and I never felt the bleak nihilism was core to 1e. Was it brutal? Hell yeah, it's WFRP! But Chaos could be purged and pushed back. The Faux-Russia Kislev existed at the doorstep to the Chaos Wastes and held back the hordes so only the infiltrators really made their way into the Empire where they took advantage of Man's wickedness.

But Pundit's right that you can't have True Medieval without Monotheism - its just too central. Just like you can't do Greek Fantasy right without a pantheon of gods acting like spoiled high schoolers.

As for CoC, I don't get the idea that nothing you do matters. The majority of the Mythos don't care about humanity or have no idea we exist. It's the cultists who drag these entities into our reality and when you tommy gun those bastards, the world becomes a little safer and a little brighter.

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2023, 10:08:27 AM »
That was a good article.

I'm an Old School Warhammer 1e GM and back in the 1e setting, Chaos was very bad news, not the auto-winner which infected the setting in later editions. In 1e, there were several gods opposed to Chaos and I never felt the bleak nihilism was core to 1e. Was it brutal? Hell yeah, it's WFRP! But Chaos could be purged and pushed back. The Faux-Russia Kislev existed at the doorstep to the Chaos Wastes and held back the hordes so only the infiltrators really made their way into the Empire where they took advantage of Man's wickedness.

I haven't played that setting myself, but have you considered adding a risk for humans to pray to false saints, or consult devils in the habits of angels?
The party might not recognize the real threat until too late (providing that the are dilemmas well tuned) which also adds a lose condition beyond TPK.


Quote
... Just like you can't do Greek Fantasy right without a pantheon of gods acting like spoiled high schoolers.
...
They're so dramatic...

Bruwulf

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2023, 11:42:04 AM »
Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?

jhkim

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2023, 01:54:24 PM »
I was interested in Warhammer for a while, or tried to be, and that involved ignoring a lot of things about it. Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

As for CoC, I don't get the idea that nothing you do matters. The majority of the Mythos don't care about humanity or have no idea we exist. It's the cultists who drag these entities into our reality and when you tommy gun those bastards, the world becomes a little safer and a little brighter.

I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.

Still, I agree that PCs can make the world a little safer and a little brighter. I had a CoC PC for a while who became a devout Catholic, and was convinced that what was happening was the Biblical end of the world. He saw lots of horrible things, but he considered it all part of the Judgement which was testing everyone's faith. He was convinced that everyone was going to die - but that those who behaved virtuously in the face of the end would still go to heaven.

That said, this was definitely against the Lovecraftian ethos. I can see characterizing Lovecraft's nihilism as insipid -- but it isn't in any way post-modern.

Grognard GM

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2023, 02:36:26 PM »
Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?

"Pizza is objectively inferior, and no-one should eat it. Here are many words listing all the ways in which it is not a Taco, proving Pizza is worthless."
I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2023, 03:06:21 PM »
Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?

"Pizza is objectively inferior, and no-one should eat it. Here are many words listing all the ways in which it is not a Taco, proving Pizza is worthless."

As a Pizza Lover myself, I will simply pick off this anchovy of an opinion from the surface of an otherwise edible slice.

Bruwulf

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2023, 03:17:50 PM »
Meanwhile, I like tacos, I like pizzas, and I like taco pizzas. I just recognize that all three are different, wonderful things.

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2023, 11:00:18 PM »
What about pizza tacos?

Bruwulf

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2023, 08:33:55 AM »
What about pizza tacos?

We call those New York Slices. Acceptable.

Spinachcat

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2023, 07:17:44 PM »
I haven't played that setting myself, but have you considered adding a risk for humans to pray to false saints, or consult devils in the habits of angels?

The party might not recognize the real threat until too late (providing that the are dilemmas well tuned) which also adds a lose condition beyond TPK.

The danger of false gods is definitely referenced in the setting. I know it's a big issue in 40k lore and while I don't have my 1e stuff at hand, I remember there being adventures where peasants were fooled into worshipping Chaos.

In 1e, there's also Neutral gods which seem to have vanished, or be seriously minimized, from Warhammer's lore to simply focus on Sigmar vs. Chaos.

Validin

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2023, 11:58:36 AM »
I was interested in Warhammer for a while, or tried to be, and that involved ignoring a lot of things about it. Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

As for CoC, I don't get the idea that nothing you do matters. The majority of the Mythos don't care about humanity or have no idea we exist. It's the cultists who drag these entities into our reality and when you tommy gun those bastards, the world becomes a little safer and a little brighter.

I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.

Still, I agree that PCs can make the world a little safer and a little brighter. I had a CoC PC for a while who became a devout Catholic, and was convinced that what was happening was the Biblical end of the world. He saw lots of horrible things, but he considered it all part of the Judgement which was testing everyone's faith. He was convinced that everyone was going to die - but that those who behaved virtuously in the face of the end would still go to heaven.

That said, this was definitely against the Lovecraftian ethos. I can see characterizing Lovecraft's nihilism as insipid -- but it isn't in any way post-modern.
I wouldn't say that's even completely against a Lovecraftian ethos. August Derleth was a Catholic and expanded on Lovecraft's concept of the Elder Gods, generally benevolent entities who oppose the Old Ones and Outer Gods, and in two or three of Lovecraft's stories, Christian faith has demonstrably supernatural effects. I think when it comes to Lovecraft or CoC it's a mistake to think it's a monolithic body of work that's completely consistent and self-contained, when in reality there's no actual Lovecraft "canon setting". His own work was collage of vaguely-at-best related stories that other authors then took and expanded on further, making dozens of different Lovecraft worlds that are often only loosely connected, if at all, and at times completely conflict. Lovecraft strongly encouraged all this in his lifetime, and despite his own materialistic views, he was very good friends with Derleth and helped him improve his fictionwriting ability. Doing a Lovecraft game lets you use any number of people's versions of his world, if you even use them at all and don't make up your own.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 12:02:17 PM by Validin »

Bruwulf

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2023, 10:03:58 PM »
I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.

That's... Not really accurate.

“The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.”

“More space, Willy, more space soon. Yew grows—an’ that grows faster. It’ll be ready to sarve ye soon, boy. Open up the gates to Yog-Sothoth with the long chant that ye’ll find on page 751 of the complete edition, an’ then put a match to the prison. Fire from airth can’t burn it nohaow.”

The Dunwich Horror

What made the students shake their heads was his sober theory that a man might—given mathematical knowledge admittedly beyond all likelihood of human acquirement—step deliberately from the earth to any other celestial body which might lie at one of an infinity of specific points in the cosmic pattern.
     Such a step, he said, would require only two stages; first, a passage out of the three-dimensional sphere we know, and second, a passage back to the three-dimensional sphere at another point, perhaps one of infinite remoteness. That this could be accomplished without loss of life was in many cases conceivable. Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.
     It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true. This was a matter for speculation, though one could be fairly certain that the type of mutation involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next higher plane would not be destructive of biological integrity as we understand it. Gilman could not be very clear about his reasons for this last assumption


They spoke of old Keziah Mason, and Elwood agreed that Gilman had good scientific grounds for thinking she might have stumbled on strange and significant information. The hidden cults to which these witches belonged often guarded and handed down surprising secrets from elder, forgotten aeons; and it was by no means impossible that Keziah had actually mastered the art of passing through dimensional gates.

-The Dreams in the Witch House

There are other examples, and when you expand it even to the first tier of the expanded Mythos, with authors like Long and Derleth, you get even more, like the Hounds of Tindalos.

Lovecraftian cosmology absolutely includes the idea of "outside" of our reality, of other places, planes, dimensions, and so on.

jhkim

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Re: Appreciating an old blogpost
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2023, 10:52:03 PM »
I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.

That's... Not really accurate.
Lovecraftian cosmology absolutely includes the idea of "outside" of our reality, of other places, planes, dimensions, and so on.

Sorry if I miscommunicated there. I agree that there are other planes/dimensions in Lovecraftian cosmology.

However, there are also plenty of Mythos creatures who are native to this reality. There are creatures from Earth's own past, like the Elder Things, the hosts of the Great Race of Yith, and many others. There are creatures elsewhere in the Solar System like Pluto/Yuggoth, and in other systems like the original Yithians.

Not *all* Mythos creatures are native to our reality, but many are.