Not sure if this is the right place for it, but I just wanted to say thanks to the Pundit for this old but gold article about Warhammer and what sets it apart from what a proper medieval take on Law vs. Chaos should be.
https://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/2016/01/chaos-vs-law-in-dark-albion-as-opposed.html
I was interested in Warhammer for a while, or tried to be, and that involved ignoring a lot of things about it. Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
As an added bonus, it's encouraged me to check out Dark Albion, which I'd heard of a long time ago, but had sorta forgotten about.
Thanks for the article, and old and brief as it is, I definitely think it's still relevant and still one of the best critiques of Warhammer and the mindset of modern socalled dark fantasy or historical fantasy settings painting the past with a smugly cynical post-modernist perspective.
Very helpful stuff, going to make good use of this analysis
That was a good article.
I'm an Old School Warhammer 1e GM and back in the 1e setting, Chaos was very bad news, not the auto-winner which infected the setting in later editions. In 1e, there were several gods opposed to Chaos and I never felt the bleak nihilism was core to 1e. Was it brutal? Hell yeah, it's WFRP! But Chaos could be purged and pushed back. The Faux-Russia Kislev existed at the doorstep to the Chaos Wastes and held back the hordes so only the infiltrators really made their way into the Empire where they took advantage of Man's wickedness.
But Pundit's right that you can't have True Medieval without Monotheism - its just too central. Just like you can't do Greek Fantasy right without a pantheon of gods acting like spoiled high schoolers.
As for CoC, I don't get the idea that nothing you do matters. The majority of the Mythos don't care about humanity or have no idea we exist. It's the cultists who drag these entities into our reality and when you tommy gun those bastards, the world becomes a little safer and a little brighter.
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 06, 2023, 03:17:25 AM
That was a good article.
I'm an Old School Warhammer 1e GM and back in the 1e setting, Chaos was very bad news, not the auto-winner which infected the setting in later editions. In 1e, there were several gods opposed to Chaos and I never felt the bleak nihilism was core to 1e. Was it brutal? Hell yeah, it's WFRP! But Chaos could be purged and pushed back. The Faux-Russia Kislev existed at the doorstep to the Chaos Wastes and held back the hordes so only the infiltrators really made their way into the Empire where they took advantage of Man's wickedness.
I haven't played that setting myself, but have you considered adding a risk for humans to pray to false saints, or consult devils in the habits of angels?
The party might not recognize the real threat until too late (providing that the are dilemmas well tuned) which also adds a lose condition beyond TPK.
Quote
... Just like you can't do Greek Fantasy right without a pantheon of gods acting like spoiled high schoolers.
...
They're so dramatic...
Quote from: Validin on November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PMEventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?
Quote from: Validin on November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PM
I was interested in Warhammer for a while, or tried to be, and that involved ignoring a lot of things about it. Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 06, 2023, 03:17:25 AM
As for CoC, I don't get the idea that nothing you do matters. The majority of the Mythos don't care about humanity or have no idea we exist. It's the cultists who drag these entities into our reality and when you tommy gun those bastards, the world becomes a little safer and a little brighter.
I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.
Still, I agree that PCs can make the world a little safer and a little brighter. I had a CoC PC for a while who became a devout Catholic, and was convinced that what was happening was the Biblical end of the world. He saw lots of horrible things, but he considered it all part of the Judgement which was testing everyone's faith. He was convinced that everyone was going to die - but that those who behaved virtuously in the face of the end would still go to heaven.
That said, this was definitely against the Lovecraftian ethos. I can see characterizing Lovecraft's nihilism as insipid -- but it isn't in any way post-modern.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 06, 2023, 11:42:04 AM
Quote from: Validin on November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PMEventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?
"Pizza is objectively inferior, and no-one should eat it. Here are many words listing all the ways in which it is not a Taco, proving Pizza is worthless."
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 06, 2023, 02:36:26 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 06, 2023, 11:42:04 AM
Quote from: Validin on November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PMEventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?
"Pizza is objectively inferior, and no-one should eat it. Here are many words listing all the ways in which it is not a Taco, proving Pizza is worthless."
As a Pizza Lover myself, I will simply pick off this anchovy of an opinion from the surface of an otherwise edible slice.
Meanwhile, I like tacos, I like pizzas, and I like taco pizzas. I just recognize that all three are different, wonderful things.
What about pizza tacos?
Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 06, 2023, 11:00:18 PM
What about pizza tacos?
We call those New York Slices. Acceptable.
Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 06, 2023, 10:08:27 AMI haven't played that setting myself, but have you considered adding a risk for humans to pray to false saints, or consult devils in the habits of angels?
The party might not recognize the real threat until too late (providing that the are dilemmas well tuned) which also adds a lose condition beyond TPK.
The danger of false gods is definitely referenced in the setting. I know it's a big issue in 40k lore and while I don't have my 1e stuff at hand, I remember there being adventures where peasants were fooled into worshipping Chaos.
In 1e, there's also Neutral gods which seem to have vanished, or be seriously minimized, from Warhammer's lore to simply focus on Sigmar vs. Chaos.
Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 01:54:24 PM
Quote from: Validin on November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PM
I was interested in Warhammer for a while, or tried to be, and that involved ignoring a lot of things about it. Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 06, 2023, 03:17:25 AM
As for CoC, I don't get the idea that nothing you do matters. The majority of the Mythos don't care about humanity or have no idea we exist. It's the cultists who drag these entities into our reality and when you tommy gun those bastards, the world becomes a little safer and a little brighter.
I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.
Still, I agree that PCs can make the world a little safer and a little brighter. I had a CoC PC for a while who became a devout Catholic, and was convinced that what was happening was the Biblical end of the world. He saw lots of horrible things, but he considered it all part of the Judgement which was testing everyone's faith. He was convinced that everyone was going to die - but that those who behaved virtuously in the face of the end would still go to heaven.
That said, this was definitely against the Lovecraftian ethos. I can see characterizing Lovecraft's nihilism as insipid -- but it isn't in any way post-modern.
I wouldn't say that's even completely against a Lovecraftian ethos. August Derleth was a Catholic and expanded on Lovecraft's concept of the Elder Gods, generally benevolent entities who oppose the Old Ones and Outer Gods, and in two or three of Lovecraft's stories, Christian faith has demonstrably supernatural effects. I think when it comes to Lovecraft or CoC it's a mistake to think it's a monolithic body of work that's completely consistent and self-contained, when in reality there's no actual Lovecraft "canon setting". His own work was collage of vaguely-at-best related stories that other authors then took and expanded on further, making dozens of different Lovecraft worlds that are often only loosely connected, if at all, and at times completely conflict. Lovecraft strongly encouraged all this in his lifetime, and despite his own materialistic views, he was very good friends with Derleth and helped him improve his fictionwriting ability. Doing a Lovecraft game lets you use any number of people's versions of his world, if you even use them at all and don't make up your own.
Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 01:54:24 PM
I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.
That's... Not really accurate.
"The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.""More space, Willy, more space soon. Yew grows—an' that grows faster. It'll be ready to sarve ye soon, boy. Open up the gates to Yog-Sothoth with the long chant that ye'll find on page 751 of the complete edition, an' then put a match to the prison. Fire from airth can't burn it nohaow."The Dunwich Horror
What made the students shake their heads was his sober theory that a man might—given mathematical knowledge admittedly beyond all likelihood of human acquirement—step deliberately from the earth to any other celestial body which might lie at one of an infinity of specific points in the cosmic pattern.
Such a step, he said, would require only two stages; first, a passage out of the three-dimensional sphere we know, and second, a passage back to the three-dimensional sphere at another point, perhaps one of infinite remoteness. That this could be accomplished without loss of life was in many cases conceivable. Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.
It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true. This was a matter for speculation, though one could be fairly certain that the type of mutation involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next higher plane would not be destructive of biological integrity as we understand it. Gilman could not be very clear about his reasons for this last assumptionThey spoke of old Keziah Mason, and Elwood agreed that Gilman had good scientific grounds for thinking she might have stumbled on strange and significant information. The hidden cults to which these witches belonged often guarded and handed down surprising secrets from elder, forgotten aeons; and it was by no means impossible that Keziah had actually mastered the art of passing through dimensional gates.-The Dreams in the Witch House
There are other examples, and when you expand it even to the first tier of the expanded Mythos, with authors like Long and Derleth, you get even more, like the Hounds of Tindalos.
Lovecraftian cosmology absolutely includes the idea of "outside" of our reality, of other places, planes, dimensions, and so on.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 08, 2023, 10:03:58 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2023, 01:54:24 PM
I'm only vaguely familiar with Warhammer, but in CoC, the Mythos aren't from some alternate reality - they're an integral part of our own reality and history.
That's... Not really accurate.
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 08, 2023, 10:03:58 PM
Lovecraftian cosmology absolutely includes the idea of "outside" of our reality, of other places, planes, dimensions, and so on.
Sorry if I miscommunicated there. I agree that there are other planes/dimensions in Lovecraftian cosmology.
However, there are also plenty of Mythos creatures who are native to this reality. There are creatures from Earth's own past, like the Elder Things, the hosts of the Great Race of Yith, and many others. There are creatures elsewhere in the Solar System like Pluto/Yuggoth, and in other systems like the original Yithians.
Not *all* Mythos creatures are native to our reality, but many are.
About article I think that it would be possible to create generally medieval-like world with close mentality without monotheism - as long as forces of law/pantheon are on united front. Let's remember than most of actual pagan religion were not disparate cults like D&D polytheism but unified religion - Pantheon Worship.
But to keep Medieval Aspect - those pantheon powers would have to be less squabbling forces, less childlish Greek myths - let's say something like Seven of Westeros if they were done better (and lacked pseudo-Trinity belief that make Seven One to avoid monotheism). So still One Church, One Faith (I think that's even more important than One Deity for sociological aspect)
QuoteEventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly:
Yes. But it's feature not a bug - because Warhammer never attempted to be AUTHENTIC LM/EM setting.
That's Pundit hobby. Most of fantasy RPGs and stories do not even attempt to authentically re-create any time period.
(And of course best Warhammer Fantasy is playing it as millenia lost and isolated 40k world ;) )
QuoteI'm an Old School Warhammer 1e GM and back in the 1e setting, Chaos was very bad news, not the auto-winner which infected the setting in later editions. In 1e, there were several gods opposed to Chaos and I never felt the bleak nihilism was core to 1e. Was it brutal? Hell yeah, it's WFRP! But Chaos could be purged and pushed back. The Faux-Russia Kislev existed at the doorstep to the Chaos Wastes and held back the hordes so only the infiltrators really made their way into the Empire where they took advantage of Man's wickedness.
An nihilism aside - Warhammer Chaos is not Eldritch form, but rather result of uninhibited human emotions tainting "spiritual realm" (or at least psychic realm). So Chaos as insidious corrpution both caused by human corruption and enhancing it - is way more in line with it's origin than GREAT ARMIES OF ABADDON DESPOILER (or other bullshit). And while it's lack anything like Christian metaphysics - Chaos due to this connection works way more like... Sin, at least in practice.
QuoteIn 1e, there's also Neutral gods which seem to have vanished, or be seriously minimized, from Warhammer's lore to simply focus on Sigmar vs. Chaos.
In wargame maybe - but in lore of 2e and 4e other neutral gods are still strong and important. Sure Sigmar and Ulric are primary religion of Empire, but Taal, Rhya, Mannan not to mention petty gods are aplenty.
I find the idea that the WFRPG world was supposed to be authentic a bit weird. It's always been a very 80's British mix of vaguely historical stuff that seems fun, satire and puns. There's an element of them having had to make it more serious in the move from Warhammer Battle to WFRPG but in the end there's an apples and oranges thing going on here.
Indeed.
And also another worthy note is - people in Warhammer land does not have at all cosmological knowledge that Pundit can assume from reading plenty WHF and WH40k sources (and even then not all editions even assume such power of Chaos - in 1e for instance Chaos is insidious but not really we-can-destroy-all threat.)
So for most citizens of Empire - Sigmar is Law, and he will always win, and Chaos needs to be purged in his name, as abomination against imperial order. And thats what majority of Empire folk gonna believe. Serve Sigmar now, rest in Morr's garden in death, purge Chaos.
Like no one knows that Chaos is in fact conglomerated echo of humanity mental fuckery in psycho-reactive fifth dimension :P
Quote from: Wrath of God on February 09, 2023, 10:56:55 AM
But to keep Medieval Aspect - those pantheon powers would have to be less squabbling forces, less childlish Greek myths - let's say something like Seven of Westeros if they were done better (and lacked pseudo-Trinity belief that make Seven One to avoid monotheism). So still One Church, One Faith (I think that's even more important than One Deity for sociological aspect)
Just as a point of clarification... The Faith of the Seven in A Song of Ice and Fire is actually Monotheistic. The Seven are aspects of a singular God akin to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit of Christianity.
So while your point in general stands, the Faith of the Seven isn't actually an example of that point in action.
Sort of.
But it's kinda weak Trinity Proxy because Trinity Theology is based on kinda esoteric nature of Godhead itself, meanwhile Seven are more commonly treated by Westerosi as separate ones, commonly called Seven Gods, and they are based on kinda very material prime social aspects of human life. So I'd say they are more like monotheistic interpretation of hinduism where all deities are emanations of Brahman representing various aspects of creation, just with kinda simplified quasi-Catholic structures.
And if you read my post more carefuly I noted myself there is monotheistic theory before Seven. (I just stated that Seven without it, could be neat example of Lawful Polytheistic Pantheon).
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 06, 2023, 11:42:04 AM
Quote from: Validin on November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PMEventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?
In defence of the OP, the problem is not that WHFRP isn't mediaeval-authentic, it's that the metaphysics upon which the setting is built is extremely deficient as a metaphysical system. This is fine to replicate British '80s Metal album covers, but if you want to explore other themes, the Post-Modernism and Nihilism lying just under the surface will trap you into the same conclusion: the smart bet is to betray Law. Even if the plebs in the Empire think the opposite, eventually every PC will collect evidence over their careers and conclude that they can either be overrun or join the enemy.
QuoteIn defence of the OP, the problem is not that WHFRP isn't mediaeval-authentic, it's that the metaphysics upon which the setting is built is extremely deficient as a metaphysical system. This is fine to replicate British '80s Metal album covers, but if you want to explore other themes, the Post-Modernism and Nihilism lying just under the surface will trap you into the same conclusion: the smart bet is to betray Law. Even if the plebs in the Empire think the opposite, eventually every PC will collect evidence over their careers and conclude that they can either be overrun or join the enemy.
Only not.
Or rather - it vastly depends on edition. Chaos are unstoppable grand army is wargame invention. In RPG neither 1e nor 4e does not treat Chaos that way, 2e most closely rooted in WFB does, but even then default setting is after grand defeat of Chaos Armies. Assuming Chaos gonna always win - is utterly metagaming take, that works only if you treat utterly contrived and panned End of Days as inevitable. And that's just dumb. In 1e and 4e WHF settings - Chaos is nowehere even close to have armies able to overrun normal kingdoms. World existed for thousands of years and Chaotics are still edgy loosers.
40k shows it also nice - Chaos despite being closely intertwined with mankind fate is distant third existential danger to mankind after very Lawful Necrons and Tyrannids (both very Chaos resistant).
And there is additional quite vital disadvantage in choosing Chaos - it will literally erode your free will turning you into gibberish madman. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Even if Chaos was really winning - that's just ultimately terrible job opportunity.
PS. Like I'm not even really sure why GM should give PCs some valid info about metaphysics of world, considering almost no one in-verse knows shit about it. It's meta-knowledge.
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 14, 2023, 06:35:02 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on February 06, 2023, 11:42:04 AM
Quote from: Validin on November 24, 2022, 06:00:05 PMEventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.
Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?
In defence of the OP, the problem is not that WHFRP isn't mediaeval-authentic, it's that the metaphysics upon which the setting is built is extremely deficient as a metaphysical system. This is fine to replicate British '80s Metal album covers, but if you want to explore other themes, the Post-Modernism and Nihilism lying just under the surface will trap you into the same conclusion: the smart bet is to betray Law. Even if the plebs in the Empire think the opposite, eventually every PC will collect evidence over their careers and conclude that they can either be overrun or join the enemy.
I guess what anyone can do is what all gamemasters do at some point: change it. Have Law be the natural state or on top but vulnerable to good men going bad, similar to Dark Albion. Have the struggle not be in vain. I'm no fan of the default nature of WHFRP but to be fair to its fans it doesn't seem that hard to change its tone and themes and run it another way, and there are parts of its setting I think are pretty decent.
QuoteI guess what anyone can do is what all gamemasters do at some point: change it. Have Law be the natural state or on top but vulnerable to good men going bad, similar to Dark Albion. Have the struggle not be in vain. I'm no fan of the default nature of WHFRP but to be fair to its fans it doesn't seem that hard to change its tone and themes and run it another way, and there are parts of its setting I think are pretty decent.
Or just treat PCs as characters in world, who knows truth about "world nature" about as much as we knows it on Earth. Which is not really much.
I could twist Dark Albion into world where Sun is just Nyarhalahotep trick to keep humanity immense magical potential under thumb control - fake Law tbh, and it would be for 99% campaigns still play the same.