Appreciating an old blogpost

[Wrath of God]

About article I think that it would be possible to create generally medieval-like world with close mentality without monotheism - as long as forces of law/pantheon are on united front. Let's remember than most of actual pagan religion were not disparate cults like D&D polytheism but unified religion - Pantheon Worship.

But to keep Medieval Aspect - those pantheon powers would have to be less squabbling forces, less childlish Greek myths - let's say something like Seven of Westeros if they were done better (and lacked pseudo-Trinity belief that make Seven One to avoid monotheism). So still One Church, One Faith (I think that's even more important than One Deity for sociological aspect)

Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly:

Yes. But it's feature not a bug - because Warhammer never attempted to be AUTHENTIC LM/EM setting.
That's Pundit hobby. Most of fantasy RPGs and stories do not even attempt to authentically re-create any time period.

(And of course best Warhammer Fantasy is playing it as millenia lost and isolated 40k world )

I'm an Old School Warhammer 1e GM and back in the 1e setting, Chaos was very bad news, not the auto-winner which infected the setting in later editions. In 1e, there were several gods opposed to Chaos and I never felt the bleak nihilism was core to 1e. Was it brutal? Hell yeah, it's WFRP! But Chaos could be purged and pushed back. The Faux-Russia Kislev existed at the doorstep to the Chaos Wastes and held back the hordes so only the infiltrators really made their way into the Empire where they took advantage of Man's wickedness.

An nihilism aside - Warhammer Chaos is not Eldritch form, but rather result of uninhibited human emotions tainting "spiritual realm" (or at least psychic realm). So Chaos as insidious corrpution both caused by human corruption and enhancing it - is way more in line with it's origin than GREAT ARMIES OF ABADDON DESPOILER (or other bullshit). And while it's lack anything like Christian metaphysics - Chaos due to this connection works way more like... Sin, at least in practice.

In 1e, there's also Neutral gods which seem to have vanished, or be seriously minimized, from Warhammer's lore to simply focus on Sigmar vs. Chaos.

In wargame maybe - but in lore of 2e and 4e other neutral gods are still strong and important. Sure Sigmar and Ulric are primary religion of Empire, but Taal, Rhya, Mannan not to mention petty gods are aplenty.

[Garry G]

I find the idea that the WFRPG world was supposed to be authentic a bit weird. It's always been a very 80's British mix of vaguely historical stuff that seems fun, satire and puns. There's an element of them having had to make it more serious in the move from Warhammer Battle to WFRPG but in the end there's an apples and oranges thing going on here.

[Wrath of God]

Indeed.

And also another worthy note is - people in Warhammer land does not have at all cosmological knowledge that Pundit can assume from reading plenty WHF and WH40k sources (and even then not all editions even assume such power of Chaos - in 1e for instance Chaos is insidious but not really we-can-destroy-all threat.)
So for most citizens of Empire - Sigmar is Law, and he will always win, and Chaos needs to be purged in his name, as abomination against imperial order. And thats what majority of Empire folk gonna believe. Serve Sigmar now, rest in Morr's garden in death, purge Chaos.

Like no one knows that Chaos is in fact conglomerated echo of humanity mental fuckery in psycho-reactive fifth dimension

[Chris24601]

But to keep Medieval Aspect - those pantheon powers would have to be less squabbling forces, less childlish Greek myths - let's say something like Seven of Westeros if they were done better (and lacked pseudo-Trinity belief that make Seven One to avoid monotheism). So still One Church, One Faith (I think that's even more important than One Deity for sociological aspect)

Just as a point of clarification... The Faith of the Seven in A Song of Ice and Fire is actually Monotheistic. The Seven are aspects of a singular God akin to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit of Christianity.

So while your point in general stands, the Faith of the Seven isn't actually an example of that point in action.

[Wrath of God]

Sort of.
But it's kinda weak Trinity Proxy because Trinity Theology is based on kinda esoteric nature of Godhead itself, meanwhile Seven are more commonly treated by Westerosi as separate ones, commonly called Seven Gods, and they are based on kinda very material prime social aspects of human life. So I'd say they are more like monotheistic interpretation of hinduism where all deities are emanations of Brahman representing various aspects of creation, just with kinda simplified quasi-Catholic structures.

And if you read my post more carefuly I noted myself there is monotheistic theory before Seven. (I just stated that Seven without it, could be neat example of Lawful Polytheistic Pantheon).

[Wtrmute]

Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?

In defence of the OP, the problem is not that WHFRP isn't mediaeval-authentic, it's that the metaphysics upon which the setting is built is extremely deficient as a metaphysical system. This is fine to replicate British '80s Metal album covers, but if you want to explore other themes, the Post-Modernism and Nihilism lying just under the surface will trap you into the same conclusion: the smart bet is to betray Law. Even if the plebs in the Empire think the opposite, eventually every PC will collect evidence over their careers and conclude that they can either be overrun or join the enemy.

[Wrath of God]

In defence of the OP, the problem is not that WHFRP isn't mediaeval-authentic, it's that the metaphysics upon which the setting is built is extremely deficient as a metaphysical system. This is fine to replicate British '80s Metal album covers, but if you want to explore other themes, the Post-Modernism and Nihilism lying just under the surface will trap you into the same conclusion: the smart bet is to betray Law. Even if the plebs in the Empire think the opposite, eventually every PC will collect evidence over their careers and conclude that they can either be overrun or join the enemy.

Only not.
Or rather - it vastly depends on edition. Chaos are unstoppable grand army is wargame invention. In RPG neither 1e nor 4e does not treat Chaos that way, 2e most closely rooted in WFB does, but even then default setting is after grand defeat of Chaos Armies. Assuming Chaos gonna always win - is utterly metagaming take, that works only if you treat utterly contrived and panned End of Days as inevitable. And that's just dumb. In 1e and 4e WHF settings - Chaos is nowehere even close to have armies able to overrun normal kingdoms. World existed for thousands of years and Chaotics are still edgy loosers.

40k shows it also nice - Chaos despite being closely intertwined with mankind fate is distant third existential danger to mankind after very Lawful Necrons and Tyrannids (both very Chaos resistant).

And there is additional quite vital disadvantage in choosing Chaos - it will literally erode your free will turning you into gibberish madman. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Even if Chaos was really winning - that's just ultimately terrible job opportunity.

PS. Like I'm not even really sure why GM should give PCs some valid info about metaphysics of world, considering almost no one in-verse knows shit about it. It's meta-knowledge.

[Validin]

Eventually, I cut and left it, and this article really puts into words why - to me - it fails as a setting cosmologically, and why it doesn't present an engaging, authentic late medieval/early modern setting properly: the pitiful, insipid and sniveling post-modernist ultranihilism that pervades its themes throughout.

Goddamnit, why is my pizza not a taco?

In defence of the OP, the problem is not that WHFRP isn't mediaeval-authentic, it's that the metaphysics upon which the setting is built is extremely deficient as a metaphysical system. This is fine to replicate British '80s Metal album covers, but if you want to explore other themes, the Post-Modernism and Nihilism lying just under the surface will trap you into the same conclusion: the smart bet is to betray Law. Even if the plebs in the Empire think the opposite, eventually every PC will collect evidence over their careers and conclude that they can either be overrun or join the enemy.

I guess what anyone can do is what all gamemasters do at some point: change it. Have Law be the natural state or on top but vulnerable to good men going bad, similar to Dark Albion. Have the struggle not be in vain. I'm no fan of the default nature of WHFRP but to be fair to its fans it doesn't seem that hard to change its tone and themes and run it another way, and there are parts of its setting I think are pretty decent.

[Wrath of God]

I guess what anyone can do is what all gamemasters do at some point: change it. Have Law be the natural state or on top but vulnerable to good men going bad, similar to Dark Albion. Have the struggle not be in vain. I'm no fan of the default nature of WHFRP but to be fair to its fans it doesn't seem that hard to change its tone and themes and run it another way, and there are parts of its setting I think are pretty decent.

Or just treat PCs as characters in world, who knows truth about "world nature" about as much as we knows it on Earth. Which is not really much.
I could twist Dark Albion into world where Sun is just Nyarhalahotep trick to keep humanity immense magical potential under thumb control - fake Law tbh, and it would be for 99% campaigns still play the same.