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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: oggsmash on March 06, 2021, 09:46:36 AM

Title: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on March 06, 2021, 09:46:36 AM
   I know it sounds hyperbolic, but I have had a notion around this idea for a decade or so.  The past 10 years have done nothing but make me realize its a better deal to just leave and go elsewhere.  Anyone here who has left the USA and moved to another nation and what did you find out on both positive and negative sides that were hard to figure out from research before hand.  I know the Pundit himself has some connection to Canada and now resides in (I think Uraguay) another country.  Those would be interesting to hear as Canada and the USA have enough similarities to be comparable. 

    I always see people in other discussions and media rolling out a "fight" sort of line, and I do think there is going to be some sort of fight.  But having never been very bothered with politics till around 2012 (shortly after my second child was born, odd how being a father can drag you into politics), I find the USA to be a horrific mess.  Corporations and special interests control too much, way too much military spending, and way too many bombs dropping on people that offers me and my family nothing but liability.  I am done.  I have been mostly done for a while, but its still a process to sell the idea fully to the family.

   I would also welcome input from people who have moved from other nations to the USA, as I think that perspective can be just as valuable.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Trond on March 07, 2021, 10:53:35 AM
I have lived in Norway, Canada, and USA. All three are OK places to live. Some random observations:
-Norway always felt very safe, almost boring, but perhaps this is why people were so shocked when something horrible actually did happen (like the Breivik massacre). Politics used to be too far to the left decades ago (seriously my father had to apply to the government to get a phone) but has largely corrected itself (thank you democracy. you will see some communist-inspired art here and there, a remnant from when the Labour Party tried to control everything)
-Canada was also fairly secure and nice. A bit more like USA of course, but both my wife and I found their health care to be the worst of the three. We lived in Quebec which has some pretty insane language laws, driving English speakers out.
-USA has many things going for it. My wife and I both love the nature and natural parks here. People are generally easier to get to know than in Norway. Since we have good health insurance our care is actually the best of the three but YMMV. But USA also sometimes feels less safe, and you seriously have to get over the race hysteria. Many news outlets will turn any news story into a conflict about race. WTF America?
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 07, 2021, 11:38:24 AM
I figure I might as well move to Singapore if things continue moving away from liberty here in the U.S.

I mean, if I'm going to live under autocrats, I want to live in someplace that doesn't fuck around with street crime.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: HappyDaze on March 07, 2021, 02:11:25 PM
Came close to taking a job in Germany,  but it was for the DOD.and most of the community I would have been serving would have been Americans, so probably not a fair comparison. Would have taken it if it had been a permanent position,  but it was a GWOT special (that, as predicted, didn't get extended).
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Shasarak on March 07, 2021, 03:00:03 PM
I figure I might as well move to Singapore if things continue moving away from liberty here in the U.S.

I mean, if I'm going to live under autocrats, I want to live in someplace that doesn't fuck around with street crime.

As the joke goes, Singapore is a "Fine" country.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Samsquantch on March 09, 2021, 12:57:29 PM
I am considering leaving Canada. Under Trudeau things have gotten quiet bad and he's done a great deal of damage to the country.

I hear Idaho is rather nice...
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 06:32:58 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Samsquantch on March 10, 2021, 06:58:09 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.

Very interesting information, Pundit. Thanks.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: danskmacabre on March 10, 2021, 07:58:34 PM
Never been to the USA and have no desire to go there for an extended visit anyway.
Would love to go on a holiday there to check out the native American sites and natural beauty.
Visiting cities doesn't interest me at all.
The USA seems to be to be a great place to live if you're wealthy, otherwise forget it.

I've lived or stayed for an extended period in many European countries, UK, Ireland, Scandinavia.
Visited many Asian countries and some North African and Middle Eastern countries.

For me, nothing comes close to the lifestyle, quality of life that Australia has to offer if you're rich or not rich at all.
Lots of jobs, strong economy, great weather, Natural beauty, overall safe country, a Government that stands up to external pressure. 
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: spon on March 11, 2021, 05:34:02 AM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.

Thanks for the info - looks like Uruguay dodged a bullet by sensible restrictions and having their own testing regime based on locally-sourced equipment and methods.  (more info here: https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3575)
 
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 11, 2021, 08:26:43 AM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
*makes a note*

How is Uruguay in terms of crime and self-defense?
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: zircher on March 11, 2021, 10:41:15 AM
I play around with the idea of retiring in the Philippines from time to time.  My wife is from there and the cost of living is great for a retiree.  Also, we would have family to fall back on for elder care (if needed.) It is a very diverse country so there is something nice there for just about everyone.  And economically, the dollar is still strong.  You can find enclaves of ex-pats from Australia and the US if that is your thing.  Down sides include crap internet (everyone uses cell phone hotspots), crime, and the language barrier.  Language is an odd duck in the PI.  Dozens of dialects but broadcast television is trilingual.  No, not three language tracks, but mixing Spanish, English, and Tagalog words together in the same sentence.  Oh, and the weather, typhoons and volcanoes are still a thing.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: DELETE THIS on March 11, 2021, 11:03:13 AM
Before I got married I contemplated moving to Hong Kong for a variety of reasons; glad I did not...just waiting for secession at this point.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on March 11, 2021, 08:38:57 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
*makes a note*

How is Uruguay in terms of crime and self-defense?

Its got a low crime rate by latin american standards; most big (and these days, a lot of medium) US cities have much worse crime rates than Montevideo.

You can own guns here if that's what you mean by self-defense, but there's a bit of rigmarole and expenses involved, you have to register them, etc.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: The Spaniard on March 15, 2021, 06:39:24 PM
I've considered Uruguay and Belize recently.  I've backed off from Uruguay do to what seems to be the high cost of living.  I need to work for another decade at least.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Shasarak on March 16, 2021, 12:26:46 AM
I would say to come to NZ but unfortunately our Prime Minister disagrees.

Some thing about dirty foreigners I think.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on March 16, 2021, 12:34:48 AM
I would say to come to NZ but unfortunately our Prime Minister disagrees.

Some thing about dirty foreigners I think.
Understandable, the last time your border controls slipped a flotilla of people on little boats arrived and killed Big Bird. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Dinornis_maximus%2C_Natural_History_Museum_%28PV_A_608%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on March 16, 2021, 10:37:34 AM
I've considered Uruguay and Belize recently.  I've backed off from Uruguay do to what seems to be the high cost of living.  I need to work for another decade at least.

Uruguay does have a higher cost of living than most 3rd world countries.
How high that cost of living is depends on what level of lifestyle you expect. If you want to have all the luxuries of upper middle class first-world living, it's going to cost roughly the same.
If you're more modest or bohemian, the cost of living will be cheaper than in most 1st world cities.

Just for reference:
a 1-bedroom apartment in a good part of town, nice but super fancy, rents at about $420 USD, plus about another $50-150 in utilities.
Groceries and food are cheap (I can feed myself for a week very easily with good varied and healthy groceries for about $25; and an average main course at a typical restaurant might cost $10; a cappucino about $2.50 at a cafe, a beer maybe $4).
Imported stuff is very expensive, though getting cheaper than it used to be (I used to say anything technological costs twice what it would cost in north america, but now that's closer to only about 1.5x more).
Health care (you don't want to use public health care here) costs about $75 a month for basic coverage. But expect to pay a couple of hundred extra in "tests" and prescriptions any time you actually get sick or injured.

The really expensive things are owning a car (gas is expensive, and costly licenses and parking permits), raising kids (private schools are pricy, and even most of those aren't very good here). 

And the real problem is that incomes here are low. So if you're planning to get a job here and live off that, if you try to teach english for example, you'll be working long hours and making about $700 a month if you're lucky.  Owning your own business here is also likely to bankrupt you.  So you need to either have a lot of money (and buy real estate, if you like), or be on a fixed income from foreign sources (retirement, pension etc), or work for yourself in a business that's done online and where all your business is out-of-country.


Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: horsesoldier on March 16, 2021, 01:13:43 PM
I live very rural in the US and it feels like a different country from where I used to live in the US.

My thoughts as of late have been that it is better to be ignored/pandered to as a minority in another country than what is currently happening in the US to the majority. I have thought Chile would be nice to live in, maybe a German community there. But I have kids and that complicates everything. I did live in Germany in the 2000's and it was great. Unfortunately my German ancestry is too far distant for right of return.

Chile seems like a good option but I would want a couple of million before I move down there.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Shasarak on March 16, 2021, 07:13:55 PM
killed Big Bird. (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Dinornis_maximus%2C_Natural_History_Museum_%28PV_A_608%29.jpg)

I regert nothing.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Mistwell on March 17, 2021, 01:51:53 PM
At one point my wife was under consideration for a regular in a television show that shot in Vancouver. As she's originally from Canada and still a citizen there, we briefly considered moving to Vancouver. The role didn't pan out so we never left the very early consideration phase.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Mistwell on March 17, 2021, 01:52:56 PM
I live very rural in the US and it feels like a different country from where I used to live in the US.

My thoughts as of late have been that it is better to be ignored/pandered to as a minority in another country than what is currently happening in the US to the majority. I have thought Chile would be nice to live in, maybe a German community there. But I have kids and that complicates everything. I did live in Germany in the 2000's and it was great. Unfortunately my German ancestry is too far distant for right of return.

Chile seems like a good option but I would want a couple of million before I move down there.

We visited Casper, WY a few months back and fell in love with it. We're not ready to move there, but it's something we'd consider if circumstances changed here in Los Angeles.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 20, 2021, 10:17:38 PM
I live in California. It will be nice to move to the USA.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on March 31, 2021, 12:01:30 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
  It is one of the nations I have on a list to relocate to.   I favor Panama and Ecuador most for south America at the moment as they have extremely easy to use programs for establishing residency and permanent residency.   Do you have any ideas about cost differences between Ecuador and Uraguay (They sound similar, where local goods and living is fairly cheap, but imports are pretty expensive) by chance?   Wife can work remote and I will be able to as well when we make any moves. 
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Shasarak on March 31, 2021, 05:52:51 PM
I live in California. It will be nice to move to the USA.

Just remember when you move to the USA to vote Blue!
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on April 01, 2021, 11:29:02 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
  It is one of the nations I have on a list to relocate to.   I favor Panama and Ecuador most for south America at the moment as they have extremely easy to use programs for establishing residency and permanent residency.   Do you have any ideas about cost differences between Ecuador and Uraguay (They sound similar, where local goods and living is fairly cheap, but imports are pretty expensive) by chance?   Wife can work remote and I will be able to as well when we make any moves.


Cost of living is probably somewhat cheaper in Ecuador. However, there's probably other issues too; crime is higher in Ecuador, and there's more poverty and less development
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on April 01, 2021, 11:46:38 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
  It is one of the nations I have on a list to relocate to.   I favor Panama and Ecuador most for south America at the moment as they have extremely easy to use programs for establishing residency and permanent residency.   Do you have any ideas about cost differences between Ecuador and Uraguay (They sound similar, where local goods and living is fairly cheap, but imports are pretty expensive) by chance?   Wife can work remote and I will be able to as well when we make any moves.


Cost of living is probably somewhat cheaper in Ecuador. However, there's probably other issues too; crime is higher in Ecuador, and there's more poverty and less development

  Oh for sure.  The means of establishing residency in Ecuador though is pretty darned easy, its just a bank account and does not require actually living there.  Its also a good deal closer to the States in the event we had to return for a family issue.  I did look at Uruguay's residency rules though, and they seem pretty smooth sailing once you are actually there.  Crime is honestly not much of an issue to me.  Many cities in the USA put the worst places in either country to shame, and it does seem as if neither nation spends all their time lamenting about what terrible people their nation is composed of.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Zirunel on May 05, 2021, 07:31:00 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
  It is one of the nations I have on a list to relocate to.   I favor Panama and Ecuador most for south America at the moment as they have extremely easy to use programs for establishing residency and permanent residency.   Do you have any ideas about cost differences between Ecuador and Uraguay (They sound similar, where local goods and living is fairly cheap, but imports are pretty expensive) by chance?   Wife can work remote and I will be able to as well when we make any moves.


Cost of living is probably somewhat cheaper in Ecuador. However, there's probably other issues too; crime is higher in Ecuador, and there's more poverty and less development

  Oh for sure.  The means of establishing residency in Ecuador though is pretty darned easy, its just a bank account and does not require actually living there.  Its also a good deal closer to the States in the event we had to return for a family issue.  I did look at Uruguay's residency rules though, and they seem pretty smooth sailing once you are actually there.  Crime is honestly not much of an issue to me.  Many cities in the USA put the worst places in either country to shame, and it does seem as if neither nation spends all their time lamenting about what terrible people their nation is composed of.

I lived in Ecuador for a spell in the 1980s. That was a long time ago, almost 40 years ago. And it was a rather different place than it is today, just emerging from an endless stream of military coups. Security was heavy, the war with Peru was still ongoing (sort of a cold war at that point, but still, I  was either detained or pursued on suspicion of espionage -groundlessly - three times), it was a time of great suspicion.... and the whole kidnap for ransom thing was just beginning, which is a way different deal that famously became a big deal later in the 90s, a particular risk for gringos. Again, I'm not sure that's so prevalent today. And yet, things can change. Do you know what you're getting into?

For one thing, entry was easy, but after 3 months, if you wanted to leave,  you needed to apply for an exit visa. I.e. permission to leave the country. I have to admit that weirded me out. I'm not sure that's required today. Maybe, maybe not, I haven't looked into it.

It was certainly affordable, most of the money I had came back with me unspent. Now, mostly I lived in a remote village with little electricity and no water, so obviously cheap, but when I could get out I was doing hotels and restaurants in Guayaquil. Still couldn't spend what I had, it was ridiculously cheap. Even in the most expensive city in the country, $20 a day amply covered restaurant meals, hotel accommodation and transportation. I doubt it's quite as affordable now. I'm not sure I'd go back to live there, but I still loved it nonetheless.

And yet, I was there for a reason, it wasn't some random country I picked to escape from somewhere else. If you're trying to pick a country because you want to leave another one,  then surely you need to take a long hard look at what you want to leave, not just window-shop for "cheap" or "easy to get into."
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Anon Adderlan on May 06, 2021, 07:05:02 PM
Yes, and I have to move in the next 3 months anyway.

I suspect I can actually get a Lithuanian passport, but I'm hesitant to move there due to the growing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Also weather.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 06, 2021, 08:41:51 PM
Well, Uruguay has some disadvantages (a terrible bureaucracy, high prices on imports, regulations make it almost impossible to start a profitable small business), but on the whole it keeps getting better and better. A new Conservative government that refused (against huge pressure from the communists, the WHO, the UN, and media) to institute a lockdown, increasingly cosmopolitan, good internet connections (including for business), real estate is still very cheap, and of course all the things that it always had that were good (the people, semi-decent weather with about 6 months of serious warmth and only about 2 of real cold, the MEAT and all the food in general, a culture that is relatively educated and european in style but very culturally-libertarian and tolerant, beaches if you're into that, etc). Plus, lots of gamers!

As long as you don't need to try to get a job or start a local business here (but rather can work online internationally, or live on a fixed income, or you plan to engage in real estate as your business),  this is a great place to live.
  It is one of the nations I have on a list to relocate to.   I favor Panama and Ecuador most for south America at the moment as they have extremely easy to use programs for establishing residency and permanent residency.   Do you have any ideas about cost differences between Ecuador and Uraguay (They sound similar, where local goods and living is fairly cheap, but imports are pretty expensive) by chance?   Wife can work remote and I will be able to as well when we make any moves.


Cost of living is probably somewhat cheaper in Ecuador. However, there's probably other issues too; crime is higher in Ecuador, and there's more poverty and less development

  Oh for sure.  The means of establishing residency in Ecuador though is pretty darned easy, its just a bank account and does not require actually living there.  Its also a good deal closer to the States in the event we had to return for a family issue.  I did look at Uruguay's residency rules though, and they seem pretty smooth sailing once you are actually there.  Crime is honestly not much of an issue to me.  Many cities in the USA put the worst places in either country to shame, and it does seem as if neither nation spends all their time lamenting about what terrible people their nation is composed of.

I lived in Ecuador for a spell in the 1980s. That was a long time ago, almost 40 years ago. And it was a rather different place than it is today, just emerging from an endless stream of military coups. Security was heavy, the war with Peru was still ongoing (sort of a cold war at that point, but still, I  was either detained or pursued on suspicion of espionage -groundlessly - three times), it was a time of great suspicion.... and the whole kidnap for ransom thing was just beginning, which is a way different deal that famously became a big deal later in the 90s, a particular risk for gringos. Again, I'm not sure that's so prevalent today. And yet, things can change. Do you know what you're getting into?

For one thing, entry was easy, but after 3 months, if you wanted to leave,  you needed to apply for an exit visa. I.e. permission to leave the country. I have to admit that weirded me out. I'm not sure that's required today. Maybe, maybe not, I haven't looked into it.

It was certainly affordable, most of the money I had came back with me unspent. Now, mostly I lived in a remote village with little electricity and no water, so obviously cheap, but when I could get out I was doing hotels and restaurants in Guayaquil. Still couldn't spend what I had, it was ridiculously cheap. Even in the most expensive city in the country, $20 a day amply covered restaurant meals, hotel accommodation and transportation. I doubt it's quite as affordable now. I'm not sure I'd go back to live there, but I still loved it nonetheless.

And yet, I was there for a reason, it wasn't some random country I picked to escape from somewhere else. If you're trying to pick a country because you want to leave another one,  then surely you need to take a long hard look at what you want to leave, not just window-shop for "cheap" or "easy to get into."

  Researching several, and easy to get into allows easy establishment of residency to get a visa.  I have taken a long hard look, and I dont need the nation I go to to be cheap.  It is just a bonus if it is a nation with upswing.  But I have looked into if for a while now. I have been to several countries in my life, and I would of course spend a week, or even a month there before I gave serious consideration to establishing residency.   Its not a random country for me, its picked for specific reasons.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on May 20, 2021, 12:48:15 AM
I think of Mars every now and then. But for real, best countries down south are Brazil and Peru. Brazil is intense, check this out. This is a regular night in Rio’s favelas and it’s part of the city’s soundtrack.



Lots of real freedom there if you can survive on a broken economy. Then there’s Copa Cabana, Churrasco (BBQ), Parties, beautiful women, etc. All of that in Rio and Sao Paulo mostly.

Peru is lot more laid back, it also got the best food in the world! A rich culture, insane  patriotism, and the economy is doing fairly better than Brazil’s. Real state prices are a bit high if you want to live in a good zone, like the green coast in Lima. Transportation is superb to be honest. Lot’s of buses, cabs, mototaxis. Everything else is pretty affordable, exception of imports, cars, malls. Going to the movies is a bit of a luxury for a family there. You don’t need a car, most backroads are full of potholes and if you don’t have a driveway it’s a bit of a headache. Live to eat, explore, sleep, rinse, repeat. South America isn’t for materialists. New tech is very very expensive in both countries by the way.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:41:52 AM
I think of Mars every now and then. But for real, best countries down south are Brazil and Peru. Brazil is intense, check this out. This is a regular night in Rio’s favelas and it’s part of the city’s soundtrack.



Lots of real freedom there if you can survive on a broken economy. Then there’s Copa Cabana, Churrasco (BBQ), Parties, beautiful women, etc. All of that in Rio and Sao Paulo mostly.

Peru is lot more laid back, it also got the best food in the world! A rich culture, insane  patriotism, and the economy is doing fairly better than Brazil’s. Real state prices are a bit high if you want to live in a good zone, like the green coast in Lima. Transportation is superb to be honest. Lot’s of buses, cabs, mototaxis. Everything else is pretty affordable, exception of imports, cars, malls. Going to the movies is a bit of a luxury for a family there. You don’t need a car, most backroads are full of potholes and if you don’t have a driveway it’s a bit of a headache. Live to eat, explore, sleep, rinse, repeat. South America isn’t for materialists. New tech is very very expensive in both countries by the way.

   If I was single, Brazil would have been top of the list.  But I am not, so it is not on the top 10.  I scanned Peru, and will take a second look.  Top 3 are Ecuador, Uruguay, and Panama.     Imports (especially electronics) seem pricey in all of them, but I am not a materialist in any way.  I could go to living with no power and no running water.  I can not convince the wife to do that however. 
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Zelen on May 20, 2021, 08:11:16 PM
Yes, and I have to move in the next 3 months anyway.

I suspect I can actually get a Lithuanian passport, but I'm hesitant to move there due to the growing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Also weather.

Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia all seem like great places to live if you can handle the long winters. Relatively modern & developed but low cost of living. Low crime, smart populations.

The US regime will probably instigate a war with Russia in the next decade, but even with the potential for conflict, I doubt it would actually involve those countries to the point where moving there would pose more risk than living in major US cities.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:52:19 PM
Yes, and I have to move in the next 3 months anyway.

I suspect I can actually get a Lithuanian passport, but I'm hesitant to move there due to the growing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Also weather.

Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia all seem like great places to live if you can handle the long winters. Relatively modern & developed but low cost of living. Low crime, smart populations.

The US regime will probably instigate a war with Russia in the next decade, but even with the potential for conflict, I doubt it would actually involve those countries to the point where moving there would pose more risk than living in major US cities.

  You know I was thinking about this sort of thing the other day, safety in the USA and how often people in it say that word as soon as they hear about someone moving to another country.  Well, I grew up in a small town (maybe 6k people by the time I graduated High school) and I personally know 3(thought it was 2 and just remembered another one) people who were shot, 2 people who were murdered and two others who murdered people, and one who was caught up in a murder charge (no idea how it turned out).  All these events within 5 miles of the middle of town, except the fellow who was implicated in a murder, and I had another friend who was murdered just outside DC who was from the same town (I did not count him in the carnage count).  Daily when we were in the Shipyard in Newport News the POD (sort of the command news) there was a report of some sailor stabbed, shot, or robbed in town.   

   So in looking back over the course of my life, I think Americans are waaay too convinced of how safe the country is.  Murder rates as a determiner of violent crime rates for instance I think are very bad, as the USA probably has the best ER doctors in the world, and likely are so good at treating gunshots and trauma from violence they probably save many, many, many people who would have died in other countries. 
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Zelen on May 21, 2021, 02:41:56 PM
Yes, and I have to move in the next 3 months anyway.

I suspect I can actually get a Lithuanian passport, but I'm hesitant to move there due to the growing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Also weather.

Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia all seem like great places to live if you can handle the long winters. Relatively modern & developed but low cost of living. Low crime, smart populations.

The US regime will probably instigate a war with Russia in the next decade, but even with the potential for conflict, I doubt it would actually involve those countries to the point where moving there would pose more risk than living in major US cities.

  You know I was thinking about this sort of thing the other day, safety in the USA and how often people in it say that word as soon as they hear about someone moving to another country.  Well, I grew up in a small town (maybe 6k people by the time I graduated High school) and I personally know 3(thought it was 2 and just remembered another one) people who were shot, 2 people who were murdered and two others who murdered people, and one who was caught up in a murder charge (no idea how it turned out).  All these events within 5 miles of the middle of town, except the fellow who was implicated in a murder, and I had another friend who was murdered just outside DC who was from the same town (I did not count him in the carnage count).  Daily when we were in the Shipyard in Newport News the POD (sort of the command news) there was a report of some sailor stabbed, shot, or robbed in town.   

   So in looking back over the course of my life, I think Americans are waaay too convinced of how safe the country is.  Murder rates as a determiner of violent crime rates for instance I think are very bad, as the USA probably has the best ER doctors in the world, and likely are so good at treating gunshots and trauma from violence they probably save many, many, many people who would have died in other countries.

That seems like quite a big aberration given the population size.

In general though, I agree that the US has a low level simmer of violence that most people are basically unaware of or actively ignore. Every big city in the US has more violent crime than these entire countries.

I know personally some people are taking advantage of the overall move-to-telecommute norm to move to more favorable areas. Honestly it's one of the most positive things to come out of 2020 and I hope it sticks. The world would be a saner place if we can move to communities that suit our tastes.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 21, 2021, 05:08:47 PM
Yes, and I have to move in the next 3 months anyway.

I suspect I can actually get a Lithuanian passport, but I'm hesitant to move there due to the growing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Also weather.

Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia all seem like great places to live if you can handle the long winters. Relatively modern & developed but low cost of living. Low crime, smart populations.

The US regime will probably instigate a war with Russia in the next decade, but even with the potential for conflict, I doubt it would actually involve those countries to the point where moving there would pose more risk than living in major US cities.

  You know I was thinking about this sort of thing the other day, safety in the USA and how often people in it say that word as soon as they hear about someone moving to another country.  Well, I grew up in a small town (maybe 6k people by the time I graduated High school) and I personally know 3(thought it was 2 and just remembered another one) people who were shot, 2 people who were murdered and two others who murdered people, and one who was caught up in a murder charge (no idea how it turned out).  All these events within 5 miles of the middle of town, except the fellow who was implicated in a murder, and I had another friend who was murdered just outside DC who was from the same town (I did not count him in the carnage count).  Daily when we were in the Shipyard in Newport News the POD (sort of the command news) there was a report of some sailor stabbed, shot, or robbed in town.   

   So in looking back over the course of my life, I think Americans are waaay too convinced of how safe the country is.  Murder rates as a determiner of violent crime rates for instance I think are very bad, as the USA probably has the best ER doctors in the world, and likely are so good at treating gunshots and trauma from violence they probably save many, many, many people who would have died in other countries.

That seems like quite a big aberration given the population size.

In general though, I agree that the US has a low level simmer of violence that most people are basically unaware of or actively ignore. Every big city in the US has more violent crime than these entire countries.

I know personally some people are taking advantage of the overall move-to-telecommute norm to move to more favorable areas. Honestly it's one of the most positive things to come out of 2020 and I hope it sticks. The world would be a saner place if we can move to communities that suit our tastes.

  Well, it is over the course of my life, not all in a year or two.  So not really that much of an aberration.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Spinachcat on May 23, 2021, 01:00:03 AM
Secession is the smarter move for Americans. Each side of the culture war needs to forge their own utopia. At the moment, we are seeing soft secession via the different legislation in red vs. blue areas. The big moment will be if chunks of Oregon truly become part of Idaho next year. If that occurs, that will usher in a dozen "soft secession" movements across the country.

However, for those looking to leave the USA entirely, I highly recommend doing a "test move" for a year before you pull up stakes entirely. Fortunately, the internet is full of videos / blogs from ex-pats with varieties of experience in various nations and I'd spend significant time communicating with ex-pats to understand what they would do differently.

Best to take advantage of others' mistakes when possible.

PS: I suspect something very interesting is going to happen in Eastern Europe in the next decade. There's been slow rumblings, but who knows.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 08:34:11 AM
Where is there to go?

I talked to a guy from Canada who said Heinlein was an asshole for not recanting Starship Troopers. The guy admitted to never reading it and relying on hearsay from people who hate Heinlein.

Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 09:04:10 AM
Secession is the smarter move for Americans. Each side of the culture war needs to forge their own utopia. At the moment, we are seeing soft secession via the different legislation in red vs. blue areas. The big moment will be if chunks of Oregon truly become part of Idaho next year. If that occurs, that will usher in a dozen "soft secession" movements across the country.

However, for those looking to leave the USA entirely, I highly recommend doing a "test move" for a year before you pull up stakes entirely. Fortunately, the internet is full of videos / blogs from ex-pats with varieties of experience in various nations and I'd spend significant time communicating with ex-pats to understand what they would do differently.

Best to take advantage of others' mistakes when possible.

PS: I suspect something very interesting is going to happen in Eastern Europe in the next decade. There's been slow rumblings, but who knows.

  Oh, it would be a process that likely would take me a total of 4 years to complete.  I would spend a year there before I made a final decision to walk the last bit.   I find it quite interesting I saw and article about the USA wanting a global 15% minimum income tax...I guess that is one way to stay competitive, make everyone do as you do at gun point.   Secession I am not so optimistic about, even if it happens, I think that ends in blood and chaos.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 09:07:20 AM
Where is there to go?

I talked to a guy from Canada who said Heinlein was an asshole for not recanting Starship Troopers. The guy admitted to never reading it and relying on hearsay from people who hate Heinlein.
 
   I think individual tolerance for having a different sort of life probably widens or narrows your band of choices there.   To me, Canada was never even a consideration, though people always joke about moving there, I never understood it (more socialism and worse weather, what a selling point).  But I will take scouting trips before I make an initial move, and speak to as many expats on the ground as I can to get more perspective.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: rocksfalleverybodydies on May 23, 2021, 02:24:38 PM
Canada is fine.  If you live outside Toronto or Vancouver, you'll see the Canada that's worth seeing.  Not that these aren't fine cities but insanely expensive: the highest housing prices for Canada (and the US!) are currently Vancouver, Toronto and Hamilton.  If your need big city prepare to pay through the nose.

We're a patriotic people and love our country: diverse landscapes, friendly people and a variety of cultural history.

The healthcare is good:  my first son was a super-premature birth and I estimate the costs to keep him alive were well over a million dollars.  I only had to pay for parking at the hospital.  I don't need to convince an insurance company to insure him with his history:  it's covered.

Our country is not perfect and we all don't always get along but we do our best.

Also I'm a Liberal voter (shock) so I guess take that into account. :)

<sp>
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 23, 2021, 02:29:28 PM
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 08:10:23 PM
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

   I do.  Because we have a FUCKING MASSIVE military.  We also have insurance companies as the #1 lobbies to congress.  Congress and the murder machine aint got no time for paying medical bills, not when more bullets, bombs and no neck spec ops guys need multi million dollar training.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 23, 2021, 09:16:56 PM
"If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it's free." --P.J. O'Rourke

There are a lot of problems with the U.S. health care system. But people who babble on about the joys of British or even Canadian healthcare have never tried to get a timely MRI procedure done in those countries.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 23, 2021, 09:18:44 PM
"If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it's free." --P.J. O'Rourke

There are a lot of problems with the U.S. health care system. But people who babble on about the joys of British or even Canadian healthcare have never tried to get a timely MRI procedure done in those countries.

   This I also agree with.  The government does not do anything well or efficiently.  It is almost as if the government and its many agencies prioritize their own eternal existence over the actual good and service to citizens.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on May 23, 2021, 10:19:13 PM
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

   I do.  Because we have a FUCKING MASSIVE military.  We also have insurance companies as the #1 lobbies to congress.  Congress and the murder machine aint got no time for paying medical bills, not when more bullets, bombs and no neck spec ops guys need multi million dollar training.
2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.


Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: rocksfalleverybodydies on May 24, 2021, 12:33:39 AM
It would not be fair to cast a negative light over the border to how much America does spend as it is this spending that greatly aids Canada and other NATO countries, keeping them on fair footing with the likes of China and Russia.  I have no interest in becoming a helpless pawn in some overreaching state run oligarchy, monitoring me for any perceived dissidence (although the woke try their best): America's military provides that deterrent.

Even at the height of cold war tensions, it was military spending that also supported creative endeavors, providing the impetus to create groups like DARPA that invented the means to have a foundation for the internet, providing us the opportunity to have these electronic discussions.

I guess one could see it as an unfortunate, but necessary requirement that has some side benefits from time to time that trickle down into society.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 03:48:28 AM
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

If you look at the figures then 21st century USA has better universal healthcare then 19th century Germany.  Take child mortality for example:


https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041718/germany-all-time-child-mortality-rate/ (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041718/germany-all-time-child-mortality-rate/)
The child mortality rate in Germany, for children under the age of five, was 340 deaths per thousand births in 1800. This means that more than one in every three children born in 1800 did not make it to their fifth birthday. Child mortality increased to almost fifty percent in the mid-nineteenth century, as the country industrialized and urbanized rapidly, which allowed diseases to spread much faster.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/ (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/)
The child mortality rate in the United States has dropped to its lowest point ever in 2020 where it is just seven deaths per thousand births.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 24, 2021, 04:32:23 AM
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

   I do.  Because we have a FUCKING MASSIVE military.  We also have insurance companies as the #1 lobbies to congress.  Congress and the murder machine aint got no time for paying medical bills, not when more bullets, bombs and no neck spec ops guys need multi million dollar training.
2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.

   I never said it was a larger expense, I said massive.  I would also say actual defense numbers (when you start paying for the intelligence agencies, homeland "security", and putting the veterans back together the nation takes apart on foreign soil) are closer to 1.25 trillion. 

    It is the proportion that is an issue.  Canada for example spends 10 times more on healthcare than its defense budget.   Proportion is out of whack and priorities are all fucked up.  I would also say spending over a trillion towards defending the country where the biggest health threat are americans having too fat of an ass is misguided.   Health care costs are too high because of a massive lawfare system.    There are lots of issues with health care, but probably the biggest is personal responsibility.  People treat their bodies like shit their whole lives and then want to be kept alive for a good decade or more through constant medical care.   Though given the propaganda of massive corporations pushing sugar, energy drinks, and fucking "fat acceptance" I am not sure who to blame. 

   Personally, I feel my expiration date will hit around 70-72, as like the man said, "I rather burn out than fade away" and I do not intend to hang around once the goods are no longer serviceable.  But to each his/her own. 
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: SHARK on May 24, 2021, 05:08:43 AM
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

   I do.  Because we have a FUCKING MASSIVE military.  We also have insurance companies as the #1 lobbies to congress.  Congress and the murder machine aint got no time for paying medical bills, not when more bullets, bombs and no neck spec ops guys need multi million dollar training.
2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.

   I never said it was a larger expense, I said massive.  I would also say actual defense numbers (when you start paying for the intelligence agencies, homeland "security", and putting the veterans back together the nation takes apart on foreign soil) are closer to 1.25 trillion. 

    It is the proportion that is an issue.  Canada for example spends 10 times more on healthcare than its defense budget.   Proportion is out of whack and priorities are all fucked up.  I would also say spending over a trillion towards defending the country where the biggest health threat are americans having too fat of an ass is misguided.   Health care costs are too high because of a massive lawfare system.    There are lots of issues with health care, but probably the biggest is personal responsibility.  People treat their bodies like shit their whole lives and then want to be kept alive for a good decade or more through constant medical care.   Though given the propaganda of massive corporations pushing sugar, energy drinks, and fucking "fat acceptance" I am not sure who to blame. 

   Personally, I feel my expiration date will hit around 70-72, as like the man said, "I rather burn out than fade away" and I do not tend to hand around once the goods are no longer serviceable.  But to each his/her own.

Greetings!

Yeah, OGG! I agree with you. There are definitely problems in how we spend money on the military, and on *what*. I'm definitely a pro-Defense guy as you know, but geesus, like Pat mentioning the boondoggled F-35, I admit that I'm often cynical of the Defense Department's motives, and entire procurement culture, such as it is. I know, I know, lots of this kind of nonsense goes back with a long pedigree, to for example the "geniuses" of the MacNamara era during Vietnam, where the desk-jockeys amidst the cushy offices in the Pentagon declared that the "Missile Age" was here to stay, so mounting close-in combat weapons for dogfighting on our fighters like the 20-mm cannon was obsolete. Yeah, hurredly refitting and re-ordering new fighter aircraft equipped with nose-mounted auto-cannon for close-in aerial combat cost a huge amount of *extra* money--and also cost us the lives of many brave and valiant fighter pilots that died in the air war over North Vietnam because they were under-armed and ill-equipped for aerial combat. Many of these same kinds of fucking clueless morons work in the Pentagon today, and make industrial, manufacturing, and development decisions that don't do much for providing our military forces with the best or most efficient weapons, equipment, and systems. Oftentimes, even when some new widget is perhaps *marginally* better, it still comes with an enormous and often mind-boggling price-tag.

Increasingly, I'm reminded of distinctly negative comparisons with the engineers and developers of the Third Reich during World War II, investing in models like the Jagtiger VI or whatever. These monsters were outnumbered 100 to 1 fighting against Allied or Soviet tanks, and they could only be produced in small numbers, due to German manufacturing capacity, access to rare metals, and prohibitive costs. These special, elite German tanks were cutting edge though, with the best weaponry, armour, and other characteristics. They only got like 10 miles to the gallon though, and were not only expensive and complex to make--they were expensive and complex to maintenance in the field. They also had difficulties in transporting them by train--they required special trains to get them to the theaters of war--and then, of course, they also had fits in moving on the little European roads and had problems crossing many kinds of European bridges. ::)

I sometimes think our engineers and planners in the DOD are a lot like the engineers of the Wehrmacht. Overjoyed at all kinds of new-fangled toys, but absolutely oblivious to strategic or resource considerations, as well as being entirely arrogant and contemptuous of already-active duty vehicles and weaponry that are themselves very effective, and much cheaper, and more efficient.

In healthcare, yeah, so many problems there, too. My ex-wife was high up with a huge healthcare company, and she explained to me that, something like 80% of a person's lifetime medical expenses are spent on them in the last few years of life. Families absolutely go fucking bankrupt trying to keep mom or dad alive in the final months of life oftentimes, or the last few years, with crazy high cost medicines, crazy operations, and so on. So many problems with the healthcare. The system, the costs, the whole people's attitudes about death and medical care.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Wntrlnd on May 24, 2021, 06:50:08 AM

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/ (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/)
The child mortality rate in the United States has dropped to its lowest point ever in 2020 where it is just seven deaths per thousand births.

Congratulations. You've finally caught up with 1993 Germany.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 24, 2021, 08:26:42 AM
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: KingCheops on May 24, 2021, 11:55:34 AM
Lol yes lets compare a bunch of American vassals that don't live up to their defense spending requirements to their liege-lord that protects all their asses.

Canada does actually have some threats that it needs to defend itself against but is too stupid to go about it properly because we aren't a serious nation.  Russia and Denmark in the Arctic (resource exploration); France, Spain, and Portugal in the Grand Banks (fishing); and the United States (fishing, softwood lumber, oil and gas).

Canada also has the problem with creeping totalitarianism coming from the Woke mob.  And unfortunately as the jihadists point out our laws make it easy for extremist groups to infiltrate the legal and governance processes and bend them to their needs.  Its starting to bleed out from the cities into the rural areas and due to extreme federalism we can't really stop it.  Canadians love Canada and that means one size fits all despite the individual needs or wants of the Provinces or regions -- it takes massive assholes like Quebec to be able to actually implement unpopular laws (despite the fact I like those laws).

Americans!  Never let them take away or register your guns!  I'd love to have a gun but because it'd be on a registry the RCMP would just kick down my door at 3 am and take them.  Only illegal guns make you safe in Canada.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 24, 2021, 12:28:48 PM
Lol yes lets compare a bunch of American vassals that don't live up to their defense spending requirements to their liege-lord that protects all their asses.

Canada does actually have some threats that it needs to defend itself against but is too stupid to go about it properly because we aren't a serious nation.  Russia and Denmark in the Arctic (resource exploration); France, Spain, and Portugal in the Grand Banks (fishing); and the United States (fishing, softwood lumber, oil and gas).

Canada also has the problem with creeping totalitarianism coming from the Woke mob.  And unfortunately as the jihadists point out our laws make it easy for extremist groups to infiltrate the legal and governance processes and bend them to their needs.  Its starting to bleed out from the cities into the rural areas and due to extreme federalism we can't really stop it.  Canadians love Canada and that means one size fits all despite the individual needs or wants of the Provinces or regions -- it takes massive assholes like Quebec to be able to actually implement unpopular laws (despite the fact I like those laws).

Americans!  Never let them take away or register your guns!  I'd love to have a gun but because it'd be on a registry the RCMP would just kick down my door at 3 am and take them.  Only illegal guns make you safe in Canada.

   I did not mention Canada as a model, rather a display of the massive disproportion.  If all the defense spending was a pouring in of tribute THAT BENEFITTED RANK AND FILE AMERICANS I would have a different view of "defense" spending.  As it works out now, it seems to massively benefit a tiny few and is simply a burden for the rest.  I add, as I get older I start to view the USA closer to being the Galactic Empire versus the Rebel Alliance though.   At some point you wonder if you are the good guys, or just the World Karens going about smashing into and out of everyone else's business.   It is the primary reason I made this thread, I think I am a bit over funding the mighty empire to roll over people who never did a thing to me and "spread democracy".   That and the anti white vibe is getting a good deal more traction than it should, doesnt look like a healthy future for my kids.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on May 24, 2021, 12:36:18 PM
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.
Yep. It's like comparing poverty rates across countries, when every country has its own idiosyncratic (and highly politicized) definition of poverty. It's worse than useless, because it's deliberately used to mislead.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 24, 2021, 12:44:19 PM
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.
Yep. It's like comparing poverty rates across countries, when every country has its own idiosyncratic (and highly politicized) definition of poverty. It's worse than useless, because it's deliberately used to mislead.

    I think the poverty rate may be the most misleading.   I do love reading articles about how many children the USA has living in "poverty", listing many other nations with fewer kids in poverty, yet never bothering to show our "poverty rate" annual income is as much as 4X many of the nations that get compared in the same article.   The USA is one of the few nations where poor people are fat and have multiple color TVs.   
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: jhkim on May 24, 2021, 01:11:14 PM
"If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it's free." --P.J. O'Rourke

There are a lot of problems with the U.S. health care system. But people who babble on about the joys of British or even Canadian healthcare have never tried to get a timely MRI procedure done in those countries.

But is that an important measure of health? The U.S. system does great at getting billable tests and procedures done, because providers make money based on how much of this they do. However, medical *outcomes* aren't overall better in the U.S. compared to other First World countries. We aren't terrible, and we do well in some areas - but by measures like life expectancy and others, we are only middle-of-the-road. Where we do stand out is in spending far more - both from government and from individuals - than other First World countries.


In healthcare, yeah, so many problems there, too. My ex-wife was high up with a huge healthcare company, and she explained to me that, something like 80% of a person's lifetime medical expenses are spent on them in the last few years of life. Families absolutely go fucking bankrupt trying to keep mom or dad alive in the final months of life oftentimes, or the last few years, with crazy high cost medicines, crazy operations, and so on. So many problems with the healthcare. The system, the costs, the whole people's attitudes about death and medical care.

I think this is in large part a function of the U.S. private health care model, where money is made based on the number of tests and procedures done, rather than based on overall outcome. The last few years of a person's life are a gold mine of potential profit, because there are so many procedures that are vital for continued living. My parents are both doctors, and my mother especially has been against the practice, and wishes to go out without such a frenzy of treatment. She had lived through her own father eating through all of his life savings in his last few years, for no significant change.

However, not doing this has been described as having horrific "death panels".


2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.

I agree that it isn't the fault of military spending. However, other First World governments with universal health care generally spend *less* than the U.S. governments does on health care. So it's not per se lack of money. However, a hurdle of restructuring will be difficult both in bureaucracy and politically, and that change may be expensive to get over the hurdle.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 24, 2021, 01:26:00 PM

But is that an important measure of health? The U.S. system does great at getting billable tests and procedures done, because providers make money based on how much of this they do. However, medical *outcomes* aren't overall better in the U.S. compared to other First World countries. We aren't terrible, and we do well in some areas - but by measures like life expectancy and others, we are only middle-of-the-road. Where we do stand out is in spending far more - both from government and from individuals - than other First World countries.
It's easy to save money on tests and procedures if you just try to wait out the patient till they get fed up or die.

Also, I'd love to see the metrics on life expectancy being used.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on May 24, 2021, 01:49:25 PM
In theory, healthcare is pretty affordable. The problem lies in what tier you’re in. You can have $80 mo. coverage that only covers the bare minimum or you can go $200 mo. for what should be standard health coverage. I personally don’t see the point in paying minimum if you still have to cash out $$$$ in the event of a surgery. In terms of decent and affordable health coverage we need to do a lot better. Limited health insurance shouldn’t be a first world problem. Tbh I don’t see the justification why a man received a 48 page, million dollar bill for covid treatment. What’s up with the prices!? The average assistant makes $700 wk/ and let’s be frank, the braking down of specialties is rather unnecessary unless you’re treating rare deseases etc. An actual doctor should know how to treat 90% of health problems imo.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 24, 2021, 02:05:28 PM
An actual doctor should know how to treat 90% of health problems imo.
At a basic level, they can, but nobody wants the basic level.of care in a first world nation. It's not just medicine that's like this though, there are many varieties of lawyers and engineers too and they too could all do basic work in most specialties---but nobody wants basic level results.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: jhkim on May 24, 2021, 02:36:27 PM
But is that an important measure of health? The U.S. system does great at getting billable tests and procedures done, because providers make money based on how much of this they do. However, medical *outcomes* aren't overall better in the U.S. compared to other First World countries. We aren't terrible, and we do well in some areas - but by measures like life expectancy and others, we are only middle-of-the-road. Where we do stand out is in spending far more - both from government and from individuals - than other First World countries.

It's easy to save money on tests and procedures if you just try to wait out the patient till they get fed up or die.

Also, I'd love to see the metrics on life expectancy being used.

Life expectancy is a straightforward measure - it's how old people are when they die. The only tricky part is averaging correctly between different cohorts to get the total percentage correct, and that's straightforward statistics. As for tests and procedures, I've seen and heard a lot - both from the doctors I know and from other sources that the U.S. tends to be overdo things on tests, medication, and procedures. Some articles on the tendency:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unnecessary-tests-and-treatment-explain-why-health-care-costs-so-much/

https://www.propublica.org/article/unnecessary-medical-care-is-more-common-than-you-think


In theory, healthcare is pretty affordable. The problem lies in what tier you’re in. You can have $80 mo. coverage that only covers the bare minimum or you can go $200 mo. for what should be standard health coverage. I personally don’t see the point in paying minimum if you still have to cash out $$$$ in the event of a surgery. In terms of decent and affordable health coverage we need to do a lot better. Limited health insurance shouldn’t be a first world problem. Tbh I don’t see the justification why a man received a 48 page, million dollar bill for covid treatment. What’s up with the prices!? The average assistant makes $700 wk/ and let’s be frank, the braking down of specialties is rather unnecessary unless you’re treating rare deseases etc. An actual doctor should know how to treat 90% of health problems imo.

I know a lot of people who are doctors or work in health care, and everyone complains about the U.S. system. It seems to me that the prices reflect that it is heavily government subsidized and regulated rather than free market, but it's also being run for profit. They're charging as much as the market will bear. I think it's a classic case of perverse incentives.

I also know my friends who are expats to other countries like Taiwan, South Korea, and Germany are generally happy with the other country's medical care.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on May 24, 2021, 03:02:36 PM

I agree that it isn't the fault of military spending. However, other First World governments with universal health care generally spend *less* than the U.S. governments does on health care. So it's not per se lack of money. However, a hurdle of restructuring will be difficult both in bureaucracy and politically, and that change may be expensive to get over the hurdle.
It's not a simple matter of restructuring and political will. A significant part of the cost is because the US subsidizes the rest of the world when it comes to things like research and drugs, a significant part of the rest is because of different priorities (the US has much shorter lines), and a hideous amount is due to the third party payer structure the government has set up, which basically weaponizes rent seeking.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: jhkim on May 24, 2021, 03:26:59 PM

I agree that it isn't the fault of military spending. However, other First World governments with universal health care generally spend *less* than the U.S. governments does on health care. So it's not per se lack of money. However, a hurdle of restructuring will be difficult both in bureaucracy and politically, and that change may be expensive to get over the hurdle.
It's not a simple matter of restructuring and political will. A significant part of the cost is because the US subsidizes the rest of the world when it comes to things like research and drugs, a significant part of the rest is because of different priorities (the US has much shorter lines), and a hideous amount is due to the third party payer structure the government has set up, which basically weaponizes rent seeking.

Pat - wouldn't doing away with the horrible third party payer structure be a part of restructuring?

I'm not saying that it's simple. I don't know how we get from our current structure to a better system, but it seems like an important thing to get more research into and develop agreement on.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Shasarak on May 24, 2021, 04:44:58 PM
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.

Nice dodge you got there, shame if anything was to happen to it.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on May 24, 2021, 05:08:19 PM

I agree that it isn't the fault of military spending. However, other First World governments with universal health care generally spend *less* than the U.S. governments does on health care. So it's not per se lack of money. However, a hurdle of restructuring will be difficult both in bureaucracy and politically, and that change may be expensive to get over the hurdle.
It's not a simple matter of restructuring and political will. A significant part of the cost is because the US subsidizes the rest of the world when it comes to things like research and drugs, a significant part of the rest is because of different priorities (the US has much shorter lines), and a hideous amount is due to the third party payer structure the government has set up, which basically weaponizes rent seeking.

Pat - wouldn't doing away with the horrible third party payer structure be a part of restructuring?

I'm not saying that it's simple. I don't know how we get from our current structure to a better system, but it seems like an important thing to get more research into and develop agreement on.
Restructure generally means you shuffle a few things around. This is more a gutting.

And why bother to develop an agreement? We're in the era where everything gets passed on party-line votes. "Bipartisanship" is a word people use to attack the other side for not agreeing with them.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: jhkim on May 25, 2021, 12:50:28 AM
Pat - wouldn't doing away with the horrible third party payer structure be a part of restructuring?

I'm not saying that it's simple. I don't know how we get from our current structure to a better system, but it seems like an important thing to get more research into and develop agreement on.
Restructure generally means you shuffle a few things around. This is more a gutting.

And why bother to develop an agreement? We're in the era where everything gets passed on party-line votes. "Bipartisanship" is a word people use to attack the other side for not agreeing with them.

Why bother to talk here at all? I'll admit I'm amused by a few zingers, but trading petty insults gets dull really quick, I find.

It's more interesting to hear what people's actual opinions are, and talk to them like human beings.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 25, 2021, 05:10:51 AM
 Thus we come around to where I think it is better for me to just move.  Take care of my health (eat right stay in shape) eliminates a huge number of problems for me and the people around me doing the same does so for them.   If I move somewhere there I am living as if its 1985 all around me with tech and medical, I am fine with it.  I get to let my mind be free of the rest of the stuff the USA seems convinced it has to delete itself over.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: KingCheops on May 25, 2021, 10:24:40 AM
Thus we come around to where I think it is better for me to just move.  Take care of my health (eat right stay in shape) eliminates a huge number of problems for me and the people around me doing the same does so for them.   If I move somewhere there I am living as if its 1985 all around me with tech and medical, I am fine with it.  I get to let my mind be free of the rest of the stuff the USA seems convinced it has to delete itself over.

Being healthy really is the biggest part of it all.  Our doctors up here are good about lecturing you on eating healthy and exercising when you show up looking like a human pear like I have done the last two times I visited a clinic.  I resented it at the time but then pre-Covid I got into good shape and holy shit it made a difference.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 26, 2021, 09:24:27 AM
Thus we come around to where I think it is better for me to just move.  Take care of my health (eat right stay in shape) eliminates a huge number of problems for me and the people around me doing the same does so for them.   If I move somewhere there I am living as if its 1985 all around me with tech and medical, I am fine with it.  I get to let my mind be free of the rest of the stuff the USA seems convinced it has to delete itself over.

Being healthy really is the biggest part of it all.  Our doctors up here are good about lecturing you on eating healthy and exercising when you show up looking like a human pear like I have done the last two times I visited a clinic.  I resented it at the time but then pre-Covid I got into good shape and holy shit it made a difference.

   I agree obviously, and when a nation like the USA constantly goes on and on about universal health care, but can not be bothered to ensure schools have mandatory physical education for every grade, says a whole lot.   I think a PE teacher at every school in the USA is probably massively cheaper than perpetual treatment of chronic issues caused by being fat and inactive.  So, if this is being missed by the galaxy brains running the country, I have to think they are too stupid to see the obvious, or they simply prefer a population to be Fat, sick, and tired, because they are much easier to control.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 26, 2021, 11:14:30 AM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 26, 2021, 11:19:55 AM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

  Have you?  I do know a fellow, back in the 90's who went to India for a heart procedure that here was going to cost him possibly up to 3/4 of a million dollars for total care and costs.  He got the same thing done in India for a grand total of 10k (including air fare and 1 month stay for follow up care). 

  I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 

  I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 26, 2021, 11:29:07 AM
I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.
Hopefully you have an advanced directive in place and every adult member of your immediate family are fully in agreement with it. If not, you may not get your wish. Check your local laws to be sure, and consider too the policies of whatever hospital system you're likely to land in. Also note that if something happens to you when traveling outside the locale where your directive was drafted, it may or may not hold up (lots of people come to Florida on vacation and have something bad happen to them...and their out of state/country documents don't necessarily hold up).
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 26, 2021, 11:33:19 AM
I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.
Hopefully you have an advanced directive in place and every adult member of your immediate family are fully in agreement with it. If not, you may not get your wish. Check your local laws to be sure, and consider too the policies of whatever hospital system you're likely to land in. Also note that if something happens to you when traveling outside the locale where your directive was drafted, it may or may not hold up (lots of people come to Florida on vacation and have something bad happen to them...and their out of state/country documents don't necessarily hold up).

  I do.  I have watched a few people die pretty horrible deaths hooked to machines the past few years.  Luckily for a couple of them their families took a proper course of action.  The other ones...it was not great.  I recently got a chance to yet again see it when My mother died a few months ago (she had some health issues, and honestly probably did not visit her doctor due to rampant Covid fears...which  though anectdotal, I know 14 people who have had covid, 2 had to go to the hospital, all recovered.  My mother who was feared away from going anywhere near medical facilities because of raging covid fears spread daily, died because she had sprung a leak so to speak and did not get it checked out) and the last month was pretty fucking horrible. 

    I do not get to choose how I came into the world, but I do get a small say in how I go out.  I have made my say.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 26, 2021, 12:48:43 PM
I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 
You don't think that these two things are related?
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: moonsweeper on May 26, 2021, 01:17:26 PM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

I actually did have to file bankruptcy due to medical bills in 2008-2009...and there is no way I would touch universal health care. 

Now if you want to talk about making the actual procedure and treatment costs 'public information' then we can discuss something that needs to be examined.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: jhkim on May 26, 2021, 02:04:39 PM
  I have watched a few people die pretty horrible deaths hooked to machines the past few years.  Luckily for a couple of them their families took a proper course of action.  The other ones...it was not great.  I recently got a chance to yet again see it when My mother died a few months ago (she had some health issues, and honestly probably did not visit her doctor due to rampant Covid fears...which  though anectdotal, I know 14 people who have had covid, 2 had to go to the hospital, all recovered.  My mother who was feared away from going anywhere near medical facilities because of raging covid fears spread daily, died because she had sprung a leak so to speak and did not get it checked out) and the last month was pretty fucking horrible. 

    I do not get to choose how I came into the world, but I do get a small say in how I go out.  I have made my say.

So sorry to hear about your mother, oggsmash. My condolences. My parents have been mindful about setting up living wills and are managing their estates with an eye towards moving on. I haven't for myself, but I probably should even though I'm in good health.


   I agree obviously, and when a nation like the USA constantly goes on and on about universal health care, but can not be bothered to ensure schools have mandatory physical education for every grade, says a whole lot.   I think a PE teacher at every school in the USA is probably massively cheaper than perpetual treatment of chronic issues caused by being fat and inactive.  So, if this is being missed by the galaxy brains running the country, I have to think they are too stupid to see the obvious, or they simply prefer a population to be Fat, sick, and tired, because they are much easier to control.

I'm all in favor of having a PE teacher at every school. My son had a constant PE requirement when he was growing up in California, as did I growing up in New York. I looked up about PE standards, and this report has a chart state-by-state on page 23. I think it would help to have stronger national standards, because it looks like the major problem is some states have weaker requirements than others.

https://www.shapeamerica.org/advocacy/son/2016/upload/Shape-of-the-Nation-2016_web.pdf

It seems to me that this is a lack on both sides. The U.S. population is more obese than other First World countries *and* we don't have the universal health care that all other First World countries do. There are plenty of things that the U.S. does well, but this isn't one of them.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 26, 2021, 02:13:47 PM
I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 
You don't think that these two things are related?

  I do not.  I would accept a direct cause and correlation if someone could put it together, but I think the high costs are going to have a whole bunch of factors.  I mean, if your position is a government control or regulation would somehow make it cheaper....Last I checked those F-35 fighter planes are in no way cheap, and that is a full on government pork program.  I have no reason or evidence to in any way believe the government taking over health care at this point will look in any way like a "cheaper" or better solution.  If you have evidence I am willing to take a look at it.   I can not think of a single thing the government has taken over and controlled federally in the USA that ended up being run cheaper and more efficiently.   Seems that opens the door to "contractors" to get filthy rich. 

   
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 26, 2021, 02:29:56 PM
  I have watched a few people die pretty horrible deaths hooked to machines the past few years.  Luckily for a couple of them their families took a proper course of action.  The other ones...it was not great.  I recently got a chance to yet again see it when My mother died a few months ago (she had some health issues, and honestly probably did not visit her doctor due to rampant Covid fears...which  though anectdotal, I know 14 people who have had covid, 2 had to go to the hospital, all recovered.  My mother who was feared away from going anywhere near medical facilities because of raging covid fears spread daily, died because she had sprung a leak so to speak and did not get it checked out) and the last month was pretty fucking horrible. 

    I do not get to choose how I came into the world, but I do get a small say in how I go out.  I have made my say.

So sorry to hear about your mother, oggsmash. My condolences. My parents have been mindful about setting up living wills and are managing their estates with an eye towards moving on. I haven't for myself, but I probably should even though I'm in good health.


   I agree obviously, and when a nation like the USA constantly goes on and on about universal health care, but can not be bothered to ensure schools have mandatory physical education for every grade, says a whole lot.   I think a PE teacher at every school in the USA is probably massively cheaper than perpetual treatment of chronic issues caused by being fat and inactive.  So, if this is being missed by the galaxy brains running the country, I have to think they are too stupid to see the obvious, or they simply prefer a population to be Fat, sick, and tired, because they are much easier to control.

I'm all in favor of having a PE teacher at every school. My son had a constant PE requirement when he was growing up in California, as did I growing up in New York. I looked up about PE standards, and this report has a chart state-by-state on page 23. I think it would help to have stronger national standards, because it looks like the major problem is some states have weaker requirements than others.

https://www.shapeamerica.org/advocacy/son/2016/upload/Shape-of-the-Nation-2016_web.pdf

It seems to me that this is a lack on both sides. The U.S. population is more obese than other First World countries *and* we don't have the universal health care that all other First World countries do. There are plenty of things that the U.S. does well, but this isn't one of them.


  Thank you.   Sorting through her stuff and getting her affairs in order has been....well an experience.  I suggest everyone on here have a will and a living will. 

   As to the states and their PE reqs, reading through that document, they all suck pretty bad now.   Even Cali and NY (Cali used to have a fantastic phys ed program, but I guess it, like the school system in general is in the shitter) only require 2 years of PE classes for high schoolers.   Lots of states only require one, and I am fairly sure there are a few with none (I was only scanning 6 or so).  To me that is terrible.  But, we also do not teach personal finance as a required area of study either and then act confused when people in general cannot absorb an emergency arising that costs 1000 dollars.  Yet so many of those same people have expensive phones, data plans, and credit cards.  US culture is in need of a reboot.

    I normally do not feel ANY policy should be centrally planned, but if the CDC can pretend COvid is a national threat, it sure seems pushing physical fitness for the nation would be the main thing they should go on and on about all day, every day.  That can not prevent everything, but it sure is the one thing most people have full control over and should be taught and encouraged to take full control over it.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on May 26, 2021, 11:36:06 PM
Pat - wouldn't doing away with the horrible third party payer structure be a part of restructuring?

I'm not saying that it's simple. I don't know how we get from our current structure to a better system, but it seems like an important thing to get more research into and develop agreement on.
Restructure generally means you shuffle a few things around. This is more a gutting.

And why bother to develop an agreement? We're in the era where everything gets passed on party-line votes. "Bipartisanship" is a word people use to attack the other side for not agreeing with them.

Why bother to talk here at all? I'll admit I'm amused by a few zingers, but trading petty insults gets dull really quick, I find.

It's more interesting to hear what people's actual opinions are, and talk to them like human beings.
There are more options than developing a political consensus in a two-party system and trading insults.

You should know, you mentioned one of them: Talk like humans. The idea that everything has to be insult or in service to Orwell or Huxley is why it so rarely happens.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on May 26, 2021, 11:46:45 PM
   As to the states and their PE reqs, reading through that document, they all suck pretty bad now.   Even Cali and NY (Cali used to have a fantastic phys ed program, but I guess it, like the school system in general is in the shitter) only require 2 years of PE classes for high schoolers.   Lots of states only require one, and I am fairly sure there are a few with none (I was only scanning 6 or so).  To me that is terrible.  But, we also do not teach personal finance as a required area of study either and then act confused when people in general cannot absorb an emergency arising that costs 1000 dollars.  Yet so many of those same people have expensive phones, data plans, and credit cards.  US culture is in need of a reboot.

    I normally do not feel ANY policy should be centrally planned, but if the CDC can pretend COvid is a national threat, it sure seems pushing physical fitness for the nation would be the main thing they should go on and on about all day, every day.  That can not prevent everything, but it sure is the one thing most people have full control over and should be taught and encouraged to take full control over it.
Why not do it at the state level? That allows 50 laboratories of physical fitness, which the other states can mock or copy, instead of 1 solution that will ossify and resist change.

Agree on personal finance. Cover budgets, ledgers, loans, credit, investments, retirement, etc. For that matter, in a similar vein, have PE cover personal health. The healthcare system is crazy enough that a class on the structure of the system and how to navigate it is probably just as important, and might even improve public debates in 20 years. (Or not, given the state of the educational system.)
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 27, 2021, 02:08:30 PM
   As to the states and their PE reqs, reading through that document, they all suck pretty bad now.   Even Cali and NY (Cali used to have a fantastic phys ed program, but I guess it, like the school system in general is in the shitter) only require 2 years of PE classes for high schoolers.   Lots of states only require one, and I am fairly sure there are a few with none (I was only scanning 6 or so).  To me that is terrible.  But, we also do not teach personal finance as a required area of study either and then act confused when people in general cannot absorb an emergency arising that costs 1000 dollars.  Yet so many of those same people have expensive phones, data plans, and credit cards.  US culture is in need of a reboot.

    I normally do not feel ANY policy should be centrally planned, but if the CDC can pretend COvid is a national threat, it sure seems pushing physical fitness for the nation would be the main thing they should go on and on about all day, every day.  That can not prevent everything, but it sure is the one thing most people have full control over and should be taught and encouraged to take full control over it.
Why not do it at the state level? That allows 50 laboratories of physical fitness, which the other states can mock or copy, instead of 1 solution that will ossify and resist change.

Agree on personal finance. Cover budgets, ledgers, loans, credit, investments, retirement, etc. For that matter, in a similar vein, have PE cover personal health. The healthcare system is crazy enough that a class on the structure of the system and how to navigate it is probably just as important, and might even improve public debates in 20 years. (Or not, given the state of the educational system.)

  I have some suspicions that the difference between many states are likely long past times where many of the school age kids were working on farms either in their family or friends of family and got plenty of exercise.    The thing about physical fitness, is the laboratory has already been going for a century now.  We know how to give a variety of exercises to keep people fit.  I think the biggest issue is with high school age kids there is only a 0-2 year requirement over the 4 years they are in high school.  Lower grades tend to not have very structured programs and often have no actual PE teachers at a school, and the time period is often simply a box checked with a teacher taking kids outside and letting them do as they wish. 

   I would maybe go along with some fairly loose guidelines about number of years kids have to get PE though.  Almost any change is going to be for the better at this point.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: jhkim on May 27, 2021, 02:37:56 PM
  I have some suspicions that the difference between many states are likely long past times where many of the school age kids were working on farms either in their family or friends of family and got plenty of exercise.    The thing about physical fitness, is the laboratory has already been going for a century now.  We know how to give a variety of exercises to keep people fit.  I think the biggest issue is with high school age kids there is only a 0-2 year requirement over the 4 years they are in high school.  Lower grades tend to not have very structured programs and often have no actual PE teachers at a school, and the time period is often simply a box checked with a teacher taking kids outside and letting them do as they wish. 

   I would maybe go along with some fairly loose guidelines about number of years kids have to get PE though.  Almost any change is going to be for the better at this point.

I haven't followed PE closely, but my son had a regular amount of hours per week exercise in lower grades - which is the California standard. It's true that there wasn't a dedicated PE teacher, but that's normal for all subjects in lower grades. There aren't dedicated math teachers or science teachers either. Instead, the teachers are generalists whose main focus is on knowing about education and child development. PE wasn't just free play time - they had required physical activity for regular periods.

I don't know how well other schools in the state compare, but my experience is that it was pretty good in my local schools. (I have a lot of other problems with schools, but this wasn't one of them.) I think requiring 4 years instead of 2 years in high school would be reasonable. Obesity is still absolutely a problem in California, but we do have a relatively low obesity rate compared to other states.

(https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/maps/brfss_2019_ob_all.svg)
Source: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html

I know a lot of states don't have physical activity time as a requirement, which should be fixed - plus if there are schools in state that are lax about the requirements, those also need fixing. The physical activity improves their academic learning too.

For schools like my local schools that have required PE, though, I would push for better nutrition more than requiring even further PE. The tons of junk food they're consuming is an even bigger problem than lack of activity.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 27, 2021, 02:44:04 PM
  I have some suspicions that the difference between many states are likely long past times where many of the school age kids were working on farms either in their family or friends of family and got plenty of exercise.    The thing about physical fitness, is the laboratory has already been going for a century now.  We know how to give a variety of exercises to keep people fit.  I think the biggest issue is with high school age kids there is only a 0-2 year requirement over the 4 years they are in high school.  Lower grades tend to not have very structured programs and often have no actual PE teachers at a school, and the time period is often simply a box checked with a teacher taking kids outside and letting them do as they wish. 

   I would maybe go along with some fairly loose guidelines about number of years kids have to get PE though.  Almost any change is going to be for the better at this point.

I haven't followed PE closely, but my son had a regular amount of hours per week exercise in lower grades - which is the California standard. It's true that there wasn't a dedicated PE teacher, but that's normal for all subjects in lower grades. There aren't dedicated math teachers or science teachers either. Instead, the teachers are generalists whose main focus is on knowing about education and child development. PE wasn't just free play time - they had required physical activity for regular periods.

I don't know how well other schools in the state compare, but my experience is that it was pretty good in my local schools. (I have a lot of other problems with schools, but this wasn't one of them.) I think requiring 4 years instead of 2 years in high school would be reasonable. Obesity is still absolutely a problem in California, but we do have a relatively low obesity rate compared to other states.

(https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/maps/brfss_2019_ob_all.svg)
Source: https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/prevalence-maps.html

I know a lot of states don't have physical activity time as a requirement, which should be fixed - plus if there are schools in state that are lax about the requirements, those also need fixing. The physical activity improves their academic learning too.

For schools like my local schools that have required PE, though, I would push for better nutrition more than requiring even further PE. The tons of junk food they're consuming is an even bigger problem than lack of activity.

  Most schools require it for lower grades in most states.  The drop offs seem to start in Middle schools, and really hit the wall in High school, when you are trying to program people for young adult hood.    Better nutrition sounds great, but massive multinational corporations make INSANE amounts of money getting kids hooked on junk food for life.  Strange to me the cigarette makers were lambasted for selling their poison to kids, but junk food (which KILLS MORE PEOPLE)... no problemo. 

     The nutrition would help of course, but that IMO is a parenting issue.  Lots of parents just fucking suck.  full stop.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on May 27, 2021, 07:17:39 PM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

  Have you?  I do know a fellow, back in the 90's who went to India for a heart procedure that here was going to cost him possibly up to 3/4 of a million dollars for total care and costs.  He got the same thing done in India for a grand total of 10k (including air fare and 1 month stay for follow up care). 

  I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 

  I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.

Before Covid health-tourists would often come to uruguay to get dental work done. In uruguay the dentists are very good, and also remarkably cheap (a routine cleaning/check up runs about $25USD, which is the only number I know because I've gone my entire life without a single cavity and still have all my teeth, but anyways bigger surgeries are often hugely less expensive than in other parts of the world). For some people, the cost of the flight+surgery in Uruguay was still cheaper than the surgery in their own country.

Also, Uruguay  has great health care for pay, which is way better than the service I ever got with Canada's "Free" health care that you still had to pay for if you had any decent salary. In Alberta in the early 2000sI was paying something like $100CDN (say, $75USD) per month for "free" health care that included huge waiting periods and dubious attention.

In Uruguay I'm paying about $75USD today in 2021, for service that includes being able to call a doctor to come make a house call to me anytime I want as often as I want at no added charge. Plus of course hospital service (which is a great hospital; I've fortunately only been hospitalized in it once for a few days but the service was spectacular, even the freaking hospital food was delicious!), and a very large discount on prescriptions.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 27, 2021, 08:17:05 PM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

  Have you?  I do know a fellow, back in the 90's who went to India for a heart procedure that here was going to cost him possibly up to 3/4 of a million dollars for total care and costs.  He got the same thing done in India for a grand total of 10k (including air fare and 1 month stay for follow up care). 

  I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 

  I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.

Before Covid health-tourists would often come to uruguay to get dental work done. In uruguay the dentists are very good, and also remarkably cheap (a routine cleaning/check up runs about $25USD, which is the only number I know because I've gone my entire life without a single cavity and still have all my teeth, but anyways bigger surgeries are often hugely less expensive than in other parts of the world). For some people, the cost of the flight+surgery in Uruguay was still cheaper than the surgery in their own country.

Also, Uruguay  has great health care for pay, which is way better than the service I ever got with Canada's "Free" health care that you still had to pay for if you had any decent salary. In Alberta in the early 2000sI was paying something like $100CDN (say, $75USD) per month for "free" health care that included huge waiting periods and dubious attention.

In Uruguay I'm paying about $75USD today in 2021, for service that includes being able to call a doctor to come make a house call to me anytime I want as often as I want at no added charge. Plus of course hospital service (which is a great hospital; I've fortunately only been hospitalized in it once for a few days but the service was spectacular, even the freaking hospital food was delicious!), and a very large discount on prescriptions.
Now that IS interesting. Usually central/south American healthcare is kind of hit or miss. What's Uruguay doing differently?
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Daztur on May 27, 2021, 10:59:03 PM
   As to the states and their PE reqs, reading through that document, they all suck pretty bad now.   Even Cali and NY (Cali used to have a fantastic phys ed program, but I guess it, like the school system in general is in the shitter) only require 2 years of PE classes for high schoolers.   Lots of states only require one, and I am fairly sure there are a few with none (I was only scanning 6 or so).  To me that is terrible.  But, we also do not teach personal finance as a required area of study either and then act confused when people in general cannot absorb an emergency arising that costs 1000 dollars.  Yet so many of those same people have expensive phones, data plans, and credit cards.  US culture is in need of a reboot.

    I normally do not feel ANY policy should be centrally planned, but if the CDC can pretend COvid is a national threat, it sure seems pushing physical fitness for the nation would be the main thing they should go on and on about all day, every day.  That can not prevent everything, but it sure is the one thing most people have full control over and should be taught and encouraged to take full control over it.
Why not do it at the state level? That allows 50 laboratories of physical fitness, which the other states can mock or copy, instead of 1 solution that will ossify and resist change.

Agree on personal finance. Cover budgets, ledgers, loans, credit, investments, retirement, etc. For that matter, in a similar vein, have PE cover personal health. The healthcare system is crazy enough that a class on the structure of the system and how to navigate it is probably just as important, and might even improve public debates in 20 years. (Or not, given the state of the educational system.)

Fitness is always helpful but diet is a bigger problem and harder to address since aside from a few idiots there's no real pushback when it comes to promoting fitness but improving the American diet would hurt a lot of people financially that that'd generate a lot of pushback.

Over here in Korea it's been horrific how fast the obesity rate has increased, it's still relatively low among adults but has absolutely exploded in the last two decades among kids to the point that you constantly see families with normal weight adults but obese kids which you'd almost never see in the states. Still well below American levels of course but the rate of increase has just been stunningly fast.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 28, 2021, 07:57:56 AM
   As to the states and their PE reqs, reading through that document, they all suck pretty bad now.   Even Cali and NY (Cali used to have a fantastic phys ed program, but I guess it, like the school system in general is in the shitter) only require 2 years of PE classes for high schoolers.   Lots of states only require one, and I am fairly sure there are a few with none (I was only scanning 6 or so).  To me that is terrible.  But, we also do not teach personal finance as a required area of study either and then act confused when people in general cannot absorb an emergency arising that costs 1000 dollars.  Yet so many of those same people have expensive phones, data plans, and credit cards.  US culture is in need of a reboot.

    I normally do not feel ANY policy should be centrally planned, but if the CDC can pretend COvid is a national threat, it sure seems pushing physical fitness for the nation would be the main thing they should go on and on about all day, every day.  That can not prevent everything, but it sure is the one thing most people have full control over and should be taught and encouraged to take full control over it.
Why not do it at the state level? That allows 50 laboratories of physical fitness, which the other states can mock or copy, instead of 1 solution that will ossify and resist change.

Agree on personal finance. Cover budgets, ledgers, loans, credit, investments, retirement, etc. For that matter, in a similar vein, have PE cover personal health. The healthcare system is crazy enough that a class on the structure of the system and how to navigate it is probably just as important, and might even improve public debates in 20 years. (Or not, given the state of the educational system.)

Fitness is always helpful but diet is a bigger problem and harder to address since aside from a few idiots there's no real pushback when it comes to promoting fitness but improving the American diet would hurt a lot of people financially that that'd generate a lot of pushback.

Over here in Korea it's been horrific how fast the obesity rate has increased, it's still relatively low among adults but has absolutely exploded in the last two decades among kids to the point that you constantly see families with normal weight adults but obese kids which you'd almost never see in the states. Still well below American levels of course but the rate of increase has just been stunningly fast.

   I disagree about how hard it would be to improve diet from a practical actual point of view.  It is really, really easy.   It is math, take in less or equal to what you burn up.  The problem is habits form early and they are almost all bad.  It takes 30 days to break a bad habit, and if there is one thing people do not do well in the USA it is stick to discipline and self control, or teach it to their kids.   Now if you are talking about having everyone eat grassfed organic farm to fork food, that will cost.  But that is not needed to keep people from being fat.  Calories are a math problem, and eating LESS is not more expensive.   

    Eating BETTER can be, but is not the real problem.   The problem is people are hooked on sugar and carbs to such a degree that getting away from stuffing their faces with them is going to take a while (30 plus days) and likely some effort on their parts.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on May 28, 2021, 08:01:52 AM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

  Have you?  I do know a fellow, back in the 90's who went to India for a heart procedure that here was going to cost him possibly up to 3/4 of a million dollars for total care and costs.  He got the same thing done in India for a grand total of 10k (including air fare and 1 month stay for follow up care). 

  I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 

  I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.

Before Covid health-tourists would often come to uruguay to get dental work done. In uruguay the dentists are very good, and also remarkably cheap (a routine cleaning/check up runs about $25USD, which is the only number I know because I've gone my entire life without a single cavity and still have all my teeth, but anyways bigger surgeries are often hugely less expensive than in other parts of the world). For some people, the cost of the flight+surgery in Uruguay was still cheaper than the surgery in their own country.

Also, Uruguay  has great health care for pay, which is way better than the service I ever got with Canada's "Free" health care that you still had to pay for if you had any decent salary. In Alberta in the early 2000sI was paying something like $100CDN (say, $75USD) per month for "free" health care that included huge waiting periods and dubious attention.

In Uruguay I'm paying about $75USD today in 2021, for service that includes being able to call a doctor to come make a house call to me anytime I want as often as I want at no added charge. Plus of course hospital service (which is a great hospital; I've fortunately only been hospitalized in it once for a few days but the service was spectacular, even the freaking hospital food was delicious!), and a very large discount on prescriptions.

   I am down to Ecuador, Uruguay, and looking like Panama.   This sure makes Uruguay look very, very close and if I were planning to be a city dweller it would already be the winner.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on May 28, 2021, 11:56:52 PM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

  Have you?  I do know a fellow, back in the 90's who went to India for a heart procedure that here was going to cost him possibly up to 3/4 of a million dollars for total care and costs.  He got the same thing done in India for a grand total of 10k (including air fare and 1 month stay for follow up care). 

  I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 

  I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.

Before Covid health-tourists would often come to uruguay to get dental work done. In uruguay the dentists are very good, and also remarkably cheap (a routine cleaning/check up runs about $25USD, which is the only number I know because I've gone my entire life without a single cavity and still have all my teeth, but anyways bigger surgeries are often hugely less expensive than in other parts of the world). For some people, the cost of the flight+surgery in Uruguay was still cheaper than the surgery in their own country.

Also, Uruguay  has great health care for pay, which is way better than the service I ever got with Canada's "Free" health care that you still had to pay for if you had any decent salary. In Alberta in the early 2000sI was paying something like $100CDN (say, $75USD) per month for "free" health care that included huge waiting periods and dubious attention.

In Uruguay I'm paying about $75USD today in 2021, for service that includes being able to call a doctor to come make a house call to me anytime I want as often as I want at no added charge. Plus of course hospital service (which is a great hospital; I've fortunately only been hospitalized in it once for a few days but the service was spectacular, even the freaking hospital food was delicious!), and a very large discount on prescriptions.
Now that IS interesting. Usually central/south American healthcare is kind of hit or miss. What's Uruguay doing differently?


It has a two-tiered public/private healthcare system. Mind you, it's not perfect, especially since the previous government (socialist/communist) fucked it up by introducing a plan by which people would be tax-subsidized to join the private system. That led to a flood of people joining the Private health-care companies, increasing waiting times and straining services, while at the same time many of those people who joined were not really being helped because they still couldn't afford the things that the government wasn't subsidizing (like specialist fees or exam fees).

Still, though, I find it a better system than either Canada or the USA.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on May 29, 2021, 12:01:57 AM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

  Have you?  I do know a fellow, back in the 90's who went to India for a heart procedure that here was going to cost him possibly up to 3/4 of a million dollars for total care and costs.  He got the same thing done in India for a grand total of 10k (including air fare and 1 month stay for follow up care). 

  I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 

  I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.

Before Covid health-tourists would often come to uruguay to get dental work done. In uruguay the dentists are very good, and also remarkably cheap (a routine cleaning/check up runs about $25USD, which is the only number I know because I've gone my entire life without a single cavity and still have all my teeth, but anyways bigger surgeries are often hugely less expensive than in other parts of the world). For some people, the cost of the flight+surgery in Uruguay was still cheaper than the surgery in their own country.

Also, Uruguay  has great health care for pay, which is way better than the service I ever got with Canada's "Free" health care that you still had to pay for if you had any decent salary. In Alberta in the early 2000sI was paying something like $100CDN (say, $75USD) per month for "free" health care that included huge waiting periods and dubious attention.

In Uruguay I'm paying about $75USD today in 2021, for service that includes being able to call a doctor to come make a house call to me anytime I want as often as I want at no added charge. Plus of course hospital service (which is a great hospital; I've fortunately only been hospitalized in it once for a few days but the service was spectacular, even the freaking hospital food was delicious!), and a very large discount on prescriptions.

   I am down to Ecuador, Uruguay, and looking like Panama.   This sure makes Uruguay look very, very close and if I were planning to be a city dweller it would already be the winner.

Well, if you're not planning to be a city dweller, you should consider the cost of land and the laws about non-citizens buying land in each country.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Trond on May 30, 2021, 09:55:57 AM
YES

https://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/crime/article251701818.html
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on June 02, 2021, 02:47:08 PM
Have you ever been bankrupted by medical bills?

  Have you?  I do know a fellow, back in the 90's who went to India for a heart procedure that here was going to cost him possibly up to 3/4 of a million dollars for total care and costs.  He got the same thing done in India for a grand total of 10k (including air fare and 1 month stay for follow up care). 

  I think that issue lies not so much with a universal health care, but with health care costs that have broken through a top end point that is not justifiable in the USA. 

  I would also say I can not see a situation where I could be bankrupted from health care costs for me.  I would check out before bankrupting family to keep a husk of me alive.

Before Covid health-tourists would often come to uruguay to get dental work done. In uruguay the dentists are very good, and also remarkably cheap (a routine cleaning/check up runs about $25USD, which is the only number I know because I've gone my entire life without a single cavity and still have all my teeth, but anyways bigger surgeries are often hugely less expensive than in other parts of the world). For some people, the cost of the flight+surgery in Uruguay was still cheaper than the surgery in their own country.

Also, Uruguay  has great health care for pay, which is way better than the service I ever got with Canada's "Free" health care that you still had to pay for if you had any decent salary. In Alberta in the early 2000sI was paying something like $100CDN (say, $75USD) per month for "free" health care that included huge waiting periods and dubious attention.

In Uruguay I'm paying about $75USD today in 2021, for service that includes being able to call a doctor to come make a house call to me anytime I want as often as I want at no added charge. Plus of course hospital service (which is a great hospital; I've fortunately only been hospitalized in it once for a few days but the service was spectacular, even the freaking hospital food was delicious!), and a very large discount on prescriptions.

   I am down to Ecuador, Uruguay, and looking like Panama.   This sure makes Uruguay look very, very close and if I were planning to be a city dweller it would already be the winner.

Well, if you're not planning to be a city dweller, you should consider the cost of land and the laws about non-citizens buying land in each country.

  I am, and it is why Ecuador still finds a high rank on my finals, and with Panama cutting back on its residency by investment, it looks like I am down to two.  Will take a 2 week trip to each and take a look around and go from there.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: DocJones on June 02, 2021, 05:08:55 PM
I don't consider moving, but if I had to for some reason, I would move to the southern hemisphere.
Tasmania would be my first choice, followed distantly by Chile.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: zircher on June 02, 2021, 07:13:56 PM
The lovely wife has been showing me pictures of compact homes recently.  I think she wants to have some builders in the Philippines make one for her as a retirement option since she has family with land back there.  So, that's her way of being subtle and trying to sell me on the international retirement thing.  We'd have a lovely view of Taal, you know, that volcano that erupted last year.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Lynn on June 17, 2021, 06:42:07 PM
I lived for about six years in Japan, but returned primarily because I was hitting a few of life's milestones (having a kid, etc) and figured out that Id have to put in another 14+ years to get my kid through school or another 19 years to get a pension. You have to be really committed to making it work in Japan (though I miss the health care system).

I have been threatening my wife with moving to Idaho over the last few years. The Oregon I grew up in is long, long gone. One in five Oregonians came from California and it shows. Although it seems like a toss up for a SJW paradise between Portland and Seattle, at least Seattle has smarter people and better economic thinking. Portland is second rate, even at that. The creeping, insidious control from Portland over the rest of the state I see happening in the state of Washington though, so even moving to a small town somewhere else in Washington I think will just delay the inevitable.

This is still my country, and the dirt under my feet is still my America. I am not going to be chased out by a bunch of narcissistic, gutless Marxists. Maybe Ill end up getting clubbed one day while passing through the excrement strewn streets of Portland like Andy Ngo, but the stain under my body will still be a bit of America.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 10:03:33 AM
I lived for about six years in Japan, but returned primarily because I was hitting a few of life's milestones (having a kid, etc) and figured out that Id have to put in another 14+ years to get my kid through school or another 19 years to get a pension. You have to be really committed to making it work in Japan (though I miss the health care system).

I have been threatening my wife with moving to Idaho over the last few years. The Oregon I grew up in is long, long gone. One in five Oregonians came from California and it shows. Although it seems like a toss up for a SJW paradise between Portland and Seattle, at least Seattle has smarter people and better economic thinking. Portland is second rate, even at that. The creeping, insidious control from Portland over the rest of the state I see happening in the state of Washington though, so even moving to a small town somewhere else in Washington I think will just delay the inevitable.

This is still my country, and the dirt under my feet is still my America. I am not going to be chased out by a bunch of narcissistic, gutless Marxists. Maybe Ill end up getting clubbed one day while passing through the excrement strewn streets of Portland like Andy Ngo, but the stain under my body will still be a bit of America.

   I considered this too.  However I have a.... combative.... personality and I think if the pushing keeps rolling, and I see no reason to even think it will slow down, it is simply better for me to take what I think of as "american" with me somewhere else.   I much prefer to be a welcome guest than a hated resident.   Though for full disclosure, my brothers and I are seriously considering 100 or so acres in the mountains and just go away.  That would provide enough insulation for my life time maybe, but I think my kids would get a bad shake, but as prediction is completely unreliable who can say for sure.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Lynn on June 18, 2021, 11:25:23 AM
I considered this too.  However I have a.... combative.... personality and I think if the pushing keeps rolling, and I see no reason to even think it will slow down, it is simply better for me to take what I think of as "american" with me somewhere else.   I much prefer to be a welcome guest than a hated resident.   Though for full disclosure, my brothers and I are seriously considering 100 or so acres in the mountains and just go away.  That would provide enough insulation for my life time maybe, but I think my kids would get a bad shake, but as prediction is completely unreliable who can say for sure.

I might think of things a bit differently if my kid wasn't an adult.

Idaho is still looking really good, though it is getting a lot of "Blue" Californians moving to Boise. As others mentioned, it would be even better if Idaho absorbed much of Oregon (five counties already voted for it) but I think that will never happen.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: oggsmash on June 18, 2021, 12:58:40 PM
I considered this too.  However I have a.... combative.... personality and I think if the pushing keeps rolling, and I see no reason to even think it will slow down, it is simply better for me to take what I think of as "american" with me somewhere else.   I much prefer to be a welcome guest than a hated resident.   Though for full disclosure, my brothers and I are seriously considering 100 or so acres in the mountains and just go away.  That would provide enough insulation for my life time maybe, but I think my kids would get a bad shake, but as prediction is completely unreliable who can say for sure.

I might think of things a bit differently if my kid wasn't an adult.

Idaho is still looking really good, though it is getting a lot of "Blue" Californians moving to Boise. As others mentioned, it would be even better if Idaho absorbed much of Oregon (five counties already voted for it) but I think that will never happen.

   I certainly would.  i would be in the mountains and just watch it all burn.  AS it is, that is not the case, and for my kid's futures (meaning they are 75% white, and there is some serious white hate right now that is being full on endorsed by policy makers) I prefer they go somewhere where being smart and hard working might still mean something.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Merrill on June 21, 2021, 07:48:21 PM
I've considered leaving. Some things that are on the horizon will force me to:

1. Wealth taxes. When the government starts to confiscate property, it is time to leave. They will start taking rich people's property first, and then extend it to the middle-class within a few years. After all, we need to pay "our fair share"!
2. When the great firewall goes up in the US. This is already starting: big tech firms are working with ISPs to build "walled gardens" for domestic Internet traffic. Google and MS will censor search terms and images, while your ISP will make you sign a EULA that confirms you won't go to any "forbidden sites". They will block traffic under the pretense that they are fighting "hate" and "white supremacy".
3. SCOTUS gets packed by the Democrats, and activist judges affirm things like hate-speech laws. People start getting thrown in jail for writing history books or posting edgy memes.
4. Crime continues to skyrocket, police departments are defunded, riots all over, etc. --the country starts looking like a 3rd world, destabilized shithole

There are countries in the world that have citizenship by investment (Turkey, Egypt, Portugal, etc.) and others that have golden visa programs, like the UAE, Spain, and some Eastern European nations

When my civil liberties are taken away, and my family is in danger, I will take my money to another country
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Warder on June 22, 2021, 07:44:29 AM
I was reading this thread with interest, but the comment by Silas1066 about the internet firewalls has sparked my interest. This is basically internet apartheid of desirables and undesirables if i understood correctly. Yeah, this makes sense, dividing people into smaller groups is standart. So, if it gets ground in USA then eventually itll come to my country. We love all ideas ''new'' from America, especially making them happen here. Back to the actual topic.

I considered moving in the past. Germany mostly. Over time i have dropped the idea, as Germany has changed their stance on many things. I think ill stay where i am, out of conformism and because im getting older.

Moving into USA is really not in the cards for me, and i never wanted to. I grew up watching american tv. To be honest, it never looked as a place to grow old in, there was always some struggle of the week. Now if one were to look at it objectively now, to get into USA one would have to have valuable skills, have prospects, be one of the people who have ''noticable worth''. Frankly, that type of person can get a good life anywhere and there are better alternatives.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: The Spaniard on June 29, 2021, 08:26:15 PM
I've considered leaving. Some things that are on the horizon will force me to:

1. Wealth taxes. When the government starts to confiscate property, it is time to leave. They will start taking rich people's property first, and then extend it to the middle-class within a few years. After all, we need to pay "our fair share"!
2. When the great firewall goes up in the US. This is already starting: big tech firms are working with ISPs to build "walled gardens" for domestic Internet traffic. Google and MS will censor search terms and images, while your ISP will make you sign a EULA that confirms you won't go to any "forbidden sites". They will block traffic under the pretense that they are fighting "hate" and "white supremacy".
3. SCOTUS gets packed by the Democrats, and activist judges affirm things like hate-speech laws. People start getting thrown in jail for writing history books or posting edgy memes.
4. Crime continues to skyrocket, police departments are defunded, riots all over, etc. --the country starts looking like a 3rd world, destabilized shithole

There are countries in the world that have citizenship by investment (Turkey, Egypt, Portugal, etc.) and others that have golden visa programs, like the UAE, Spain, and some Eastern European nations

When my civil liberties are taken away, and my family is in danger, I will take my money to another country

All valid concerns.  The problem is where to go that isn't going to have the same issues?  Europe is done for, except maybe Poland but they'll have Russian trouble before too long.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on June 30, 2021, 07:06:27 AM
I've considered leaving. Some things that are on the horizon will force me to:

1. Wealth taxes. When the government starts to confiscate property, it is time to leave. They will start taking rich people's property first, and then extend it to the middle-class within a few years. After all, we need to pay "our fair share"!
2. When the great firewall goes up in the US. This is already starting: big tech firms are working with ISPs to build "walled gardens" for domestic Internet traffic. Google and MS will censor search terms and images, while your ISP will make you sign a EULA that confirms you won't go to any "forbidden sites". They will block traffic under the pretense that they are fighting "hate" and "white supremacy".
3. SCOTUS gets packed by the Democrats, and activist judges affirm things like hate-speech laws. People start getting thrown in jail for writing history books or posting edgy memes.
4. Crime continues to skyrocket, police departments are defunded, riots all over, etc. --the country starts looking like a 3rd world, destabilized shithole

There are countries in the world that have citizenship by investment (Turkey, Egypt, Portugal, etc.) and others that have golden visa programs, like the UAE, Spain, and some Eastern European nations

When my civil liberties are taken away, and my family is in danger, I will take my money to another country

All valid concerns.  The problem is where to go that isn't going to have the same issues?  Europe is done for, except maybe Poland but they'll have Russian trouble before too long.
You could migrate to the Principality of Sealand. (https://sealandgov.org/)
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: The Spaniard on June 30, 2021, 08:04:07 AM
 :(  sorry, double post
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: The Spaniard on June 30, 2021, 08:04:35 AM
I've considered leaving. Some things that are on the horizon will force me to:

1. Wealth taxes. When the government starts to confiscate property, it is time to leave. They will start taking rich people's property first, and then extend it to the middle-class within a few years. After all, we need to pay "our fair share"!
2. When the great firewall goes up in the US. This is already starting: big tech firms are working with ISPs to build "walled gardens" for domestic Internet traffic. Google and MS will censor search terms and images, while your ISP will make you sign a EULA that confirms you won't go to any "forbidden sites". They will block traffic under the pretense that they are fighting "hate" and "white supremacy".
3. SCOTUS gets packed by the Democrats, and activist judges affirm things like hate-speech laws. People start getting thrown in jail for writing history books or posting edgy memes.
4. Crime continues to skyrocket, police departments are defunded, riots all over, etc. --the country starts looking like a 3rd world, destabilized shithole

There are countries in the world that have citizenship by investment (Turkey, Egypt, Portugal, etc.) and others that have golden visa programs, like the UAE, Spain, and some Eastern European nations

When my civil liberties are taken away, and my family is in danger, I will take my money to another country

All valid concerns.  The problem is where to go that isn't going to have the same issues?  Europe is done for, except maybe Poland but they'll have Russian trouble before too long.
You could migrate to the Principality of Sealand. (https://sealandgov.org/)
Lord "The Spaniard" doesn't sound quite right.  We'd have to do something with that.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Timothe on January 14, 2022, 12:15:48 PM
My family moved to the United States in 1839 because of the lunacy going on in Europe. Then-modern day Europeans spending several years of near death via disease and starvation.

We’ve run out of places to which to flee.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: dkabq on January 15, 2022, 06:59:14 AM
I don't consider moving, but if I had to for some reason, I would move to the southern hemisphere.
Tasmania would be my first choice, followed distantly by Chile.

Given Australia's covid response, is Tasmania still on your short list?
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Rhymer88 on January 15, 2022, 03:20:27 PM
Yes, and I have to move in the next 3 months anyway.

I suspect I can actually get a Lithuanian passport, but I'm hesitant to move there due to the growing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Also weather.
If you have a Lithuanian passport you can move anywhere within the EU, so you don't have to live next to Russia.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Mistwell on January 15, 2022, 11:41:27 PM
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.

Agreed. If a baby is born alive here and dies within a half hour while we try our best to save that life, that counts as a live birth and 30 minute of life. In most nations, that counts as born not-alive and therefore does not count in the child mortality rate.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: solomani on January 16, 2022, 02:53:12 AM
As an Australian, I would love to move to the USA... even with the social unrest there.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: 3catcircus on January 16, 2022, 10:47:42 AM
As an Australian, I would love to move to the USA... even with the social unrest there.

So, here's the deal.  Up until last year when your government went full-on fascist with lockdowns and aboriginal COVID concentration camps, I'd have said Australia is the place to be, based upon how I've enjoyed it every time I went there (4- 6 times per year). Better food ingredient quality, friendly people, relatively low crime rate, more laid-back work culture.  In fact, I have an upcoming opportunity to go there for 3 or so years in a long-term assignment. Based upon current Australian covid restrictions, I don't think I want to.

In the US, as long as you stay the fuck outta cities, the southern states are the place to be.  No COVID mandates, much more lenient towards pro-constitution 1A/2A activities, and a generally very friendly bunch of people.  Go into Democratic shitholes like California and New York or dmDem cities in red states (Atlanta, Austin, etc.) and you take your life in your hands.

For me, the best place I've ever been to and would love to live is NW Spain. Galician food, good wine, no pasa nada attitude towards work, and very friendly people. The only downside is the best high unemployment rate.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: RPGPundit on January 16, 2022, 05:26:08 PM
I'm perfectly happy exactly where I am. Uruguayans won the "Government You Want to Have During Covid" lottery.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Daztur on January 17, 2022, 07:34:32 AM
I'm perfectly happy exactly where I am. Uruguayans won the "Government You Want to Have During Covid" lottery.

Here in Korea things have gone pretty well. Less than 10% of Uruguay's death rate, have gotten off lighter than almost anywhere else economically, no lockdowns, few anti-vax morons, much less Zoom class for the kiddies than elsewhere, etc. etc. Starting to prep for stuff back in January 2020 and then really getting things in gear in February 2020 while most everyone else was standing around with their thumbs up their butts for weeks and weeks after things were already pretty well organized here really helped a lot. The government learned from the faceplant the previous epically incompetent administration did in terms of its MERS response in 2015 and was relatively on the ball, at least compared to all of the clownshoes shit elsewhere as there was still a good bit of bumbling...
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: TNMalt on January 17, 2022, 06:13:56 PM
Korea handled covid better than a lot of places. But then a habit of wearing masks when sick helped.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: dkabq on January 17, 2022, 06:53:39 PM
Korea handled covid better than a lot of places. But then a habit of wearing masks when sick helped.

Doubtful.
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/personal-protective-equipment-infection-control/n95-respirators-surgical-masks-face-masks-and-barrier-face-coverings
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-covid-19-and-medical-devices/face-masks-barrier-face-coverings-surgical-masks-and-respirators-covid-19#using
https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/covid-the-lockdowns-etc/3720/

tl:dr = "Face masks may or may not meet any fluid barrier or filtration efficiency levels; therefore, they are not a substitute for N95 respirators or other Filtering Facepiece Respirators (FFRs), which provide respiratory protection to the wearer, or for surgical masks, which provide fluid barrier protection to the wearer."

"While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, it does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face."

Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: TNMalt on January 17, 2022, 07:09:58 PM
And I bet you think the vax is useless too.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on January 17, 2022, 07:26:41 PM
And I bet you think the vax is useless too.
There are multiple vaxxes, not just one. Are you using the singular because it's an an object of religious faith to you?
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: moonsweeper on January 17, 2022, 07:29:05 PM
And I bet you think the vax is useless too.

Nope, but if I need to use a therapeutic I'll use HCQ and Ivermectin instead of some experimental jab.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: TNMalt on January 17, 2022, 07:56:25 PM
And I bet you think the vax is useless too.
There are multiple vaxxes, not just one. Are you using the singular because it's an an object of religious faith to you?

Iä! Iä! Vaccine fhtagn!
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: dkabq on January 17, 2022, 08:15:14 PM
And I bet you think the vax is useless too.

You would be wrong. The vaccines, while they do not stop transmission or infection, do reduce symptoms such that risk of hospitalization and death are reduced.

And I am just quoting the US FDA. If you have some SCIENCE!(tm) that you believe is contrary to their guidance, you should let them know ASAP so that they can make the appropriate corrections.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: The Spaniard on January 17, 2022, 08:56:05 PM
The vaxxes weren't rolled out to lessen symptoms; we were told we had to have them to stop the spread.  If we didn't we weren't good people and didn't care about others, right?  Now it's about symptoms?  What business is it of yours or anyone else's on how I deal with my symptoms?  Keep on moving the goalposts...
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: jhkim on January 17, 2022, 08:58:09 PM
Here in Korea things have gone pretty well. Less than 10% of Uruguay's death rate, have gotten off lighter than almost anywhere else economically, no lockdowns, few anti-vax morons, much less Zoom class for the kiddies than elsewhere, etc. etc. Starting to prep for stuff back in January 2020 and then really getting things in gear in February 2020 while most everyone else was standing around with their thumbs up their butts for weeks and weeks after things were already pretty well organized here really helped a lot. The government learned from the faceplant the previous epically incompetent administration did in terms of its MERS response in 2015 and was relatively on the ball, at least compared to all of the clownshoes shit elsewhere as there was still a good bit of bumbling...
Korea handled covid better than a lot of places. But then a habit of wearing masks when sick helped.

There are a lot of possible reasons for South Korea's success - ranging from government action, general population behavior, to masks, to possible genetic or prior disease exposure. It's hard to tell, because many things are correlated. ​

I was in South Korea in Jan and Feb of 2020 for business, and I got to experience their handling. During the course of my second trip in February, I was getting my temperature checked daily as I went into the office, and as I went into my hotel. Masks were everywhere. The subway stations were plastered all over with flyers and posters informing people. People were already avoiding crowds. I met my cousin just before I left, and the normally-crowded district was quite subdued - well before any government mandate. I even got my temperature checked to get on the plane home.

When I flew back to the U.S., I walked straight through customs just checking in at an automated machine. There were no checks or questions, and no announcement about covid. It would be many weeks before any concerted action.

I am inclined to think that all the precautions and organization did have an impact, though it's not clear which helped the most.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on January 17, 2022, 09:03:58 PM
And I bet you think the vax is useless too.
There are multiple vaxxes, not just one. Are you using the singular because it's an an object of religious faith to you?

Iä! Iä! Vaccine fhtagn!
That explains a lot.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Daztur on January 17, 2022, 09:36:20 PM
Here in Korea things have gone pretty well. Less than 10% of Uruguay's death rate, have gotten off lighter than almost anywhere else economically, no lockdowns, few anti-vax morons, much less Zoom class for the kiddies than elsewhere, etc. etc. Starting to prep for stuff back in January 2020 and then really getting things in gear in February 2020 while most everyone else was standing around with their thumbs up their butts for weeks and weeks after things were already pretty well organized here really helped a lot. The government learned from the faceplant the previous epically incompetent administration did in terms of its MERS response in 2015 and was relatively on the ball, at least compared to all of the clownshoes shit elsewhere as there was still a good bit of bumbling...
Korea handled covid better than a lot of places. But then a habit of wearing masks when sick helped.

There are a lot of possible reasons for South Korea's success - ranging from government action, general population behavior, to masks, to possible genetic or prior disease exposure. It's hard to tell, because many things are correlated. ​

I was in South Korea in Jan and Feb of 2020 for business, and I got to experience their handling. During the course of my second trip in February, I was getting my temperature checked daily as I went into the office, and as I went into my hotel. Masks were everywhere. The subway stations were plastered all over with flyers and posters informing people. People were already avoiding crowds. I met my cousin just before I left, and the normally-crowded district was quite subdued - well before any government mandate. I even got my temperature checked to get on the plane home.

When I flew back to the U.S., I walked straight through customs just checking in at an automated machine. There were no checks or questions, and no announcement about covid. It would be many weeks before any concerted action.

I am inclined to think that all the precautions and organization did have an impact, though it's not clear which helped the most.

For masks specifically I think the best argument is Japan. While Korea was on top of things, Japan was really slow and incompetent in its reaponse. The only thing Japan did better than Korea was to gets its hand on good vaccines faster while for a while earlier this year Korea only had a trickle of the relatively crappy astrazeneca vaccines (which has caused problems recently until most everyone here got pfizer booster shots).

However, even before the vaccines Japan's death rate was only marginally higher than Korea's. If Japan's response was so lax why did so few people die there? Can't think of any good explanation besides widespread use of masks, especially masks at least marginally better than shitty cloth masks widely used elsewhere.

Masks don't even have to do much at the individual level to have a huge effect at a population level.

For example if the average unmasked sick person gives the virus to 1.2 people and the average masked person gives it to 1.0 people that's only a very small difference in how much a mask helps you individually but causes absolutely enormous differences on the population level due to how exponential growth works.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Pat on January 17, 2022, 10:12:44 PM
However, even before the vaccines Japan's death rate was only marginally higher than Korea's. If Japan's response was so lax why did so few people die there? Can't think of any good explanation besides widespread use of masks, especially masks at least marginally better than shitty cloth masks widely used elsewhere.
Cross-immunity from previous exposure to earlier coronavirus strains is one theory.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: 3catcircus on January 18, 2022, 10:31:55 AM
Here in Korea things have gone pretty well. Less than 10% of Uruguay's death rate, have gotten off lighter than almost anywhere else economically, no lockdowns, few anti-vax morons, much less Zoom class for the kiddies than elsewhere, etc. etc. Starting to prep for stuff back in January 2020 and then really getting things in gear in February 2020 while most everyone else was standing around with their thumbs up their butts for weeks and weeks after things were already pretty well organized here really helped a lot. The government learned from the faceplant the previous epically incompetent administration did in terms of its MERS response in 2015 and was relatively on the ball, at least compared to all of the clownshoes shit elsewhere as there was still a good bit of bumbling...
Korea handled covid better than a lot of places. But then a habit of wearing masks when sick helped.

There are a lot of possible reasons for South Korea's success - ranging from government action, general population behavior, to masks, to possible genetic or prior disease exposure. It's hard to tell, because many things are correlated. ​

I was in South Korea in Jan and Feb of 2020 for business, and I got to experience their handling. During the course of my second trip in February, I was getting my temperature checked daily as I went into the office, and as I went into my hotel. Masks were everywhere. The subway stations were plastered all over with flyers and posters informing people. People were already avoiding crowds. I met my cousin just before I left, and the normally-crowded district was quite subdued - well before any government mandate. I even got my temperature checked to get on the plane home.

When I flew back to the U.S., I walked straight through customs just checking in at an automated machine. There were no checks or questions, and no announcement about covid. It would be many weeks before any concerted action.

I am inclined to think that all the precautions and organization did have an impact, though it's not clear which helped the most.

For masks specifically I think the best argument is Japan. While Korea was on top of things, Japan was really slow and incompetent in its reaponse. The only thing Japan did better than Korea was to gets its hand on good vaccines faster while for a while earlier this year Korea only had a trickle of the relatively crappy astrazeneca vaccines (which has caused problems recently until most everyone here got pfizer booster shots).

However, even before the vaccines Japan's death rate was only marginally higher than Korea's. If Japan's response was so lax why did so few people die there? Can't think of any good explanation besides widespread use of masks, especially masks at least marginally better than shitty cloth masks widely used elsewhere.

Masks don't even have to do much at the individual level to have a huge effect at a population level.

For example if the average unmasked sick person gives the virus to 1.2 people and the average masked person gives it to 1.0 people that's only a very small difference in how much a mask helps you individually but causes absolutely enormous differences on the population level due to how exponential growth works.

The subtle biggest factors in Japan?

1. They're not testing everyone unless they're symptomatic.
2. They have a lot fewer fat people than the US.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: DocJones on January 22, 2022, 08:06:13 PM
And I bet you think the vax is useless too.
I would take the traditional vaccine, Sinovac, if it was available here.
Who better to design a vax than the designers of the virus. ;-)
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: TNMalt on January 22, 2022, 11:19:01 PM
Sinovac provides much less protection against symptomatic infection, but still provides good protection against hospitalization.
Title: Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
Post by: Redwanderer on February 01, 2022, 03:30:19 PM
Looking at how the 92% in America keeps running away from the 8% and sucking up to people who hate them and want to destroy them, Ireland is looking better all the time.

Éirinn go Brách!   :)