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Author Topic: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?  (Read 16473 times)

Pat
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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2021, 10:19:13 PM »
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

   I do.  Because we have a FUCKING MASSIVE military.  We also have insurance companies as the #1 lobbies to congress.  Congress and the murder machine aint got no time for paying medical bills, not when more bullets, bombs and no neck spec ops guys need multi million dollar training.
2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.



rocksfalleverybodydies

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2021, 12:33:39 AM »
It would not be fair to cast a negative light over the border to how much America does spend as it is this spending that greatly aids Canada and other NATO countries, keeping them on fair footing with the likes of China and Russia.  I have no interest in becoming a helpless pawn in some overreaching state run oligarchy, monitoring me for any perceived dissidence (although the woke try their best): America's military provides that deterrent.

Even at the height of cold war tensions, it was military spending that also supported creative endeavors, providing the impetus to create groups like DARPA that invented the means to have a foundation for the internet, providing us the opportunity to have these electronic discussions.

I guess one could see it as an unfortunate, but necessary requirement that has some side benefits from time to time that trickle down into society.

Shasarak

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2021, 03:48:28 AM »
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

If you look at the figures then 21st century USA has better universal healthcare then 19th century Germany.  Take child mortality for example:


https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041718/germany-all-time-child-mortality-rate/
The child mortality rate in Germany, for children under the age of five, was 340 deaths per thousand births in 1800. This means that more than one in every three children born in 1800 did not make it to their fifth birthday. Child mortality increased to almost fifty percent in the mid-nineteenth century, as the country industrialized and urbanized rapidly, which allowed diseases to spread much faster.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/
The child mortality rate in the United States has dropped to its lowest point ever in 2020 where it is just seven deaths per thousand births.
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oggsmash

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2021, 04:32:23 AM »
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

   I do.  Because we have a FUCKING MASSIVE military.  We also have insurance companies as the #1 lobbies to congress.  Congress and the murder machine aint got no time for paying medical bills, not when more bullets, bombs and no neck spec ops guys need multi million dollar training.
2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.

   I never said it was a larger expense, I said massive.  I would also say actual defense numbers (when you start paying for the intelligence agencies, homeland "security", and putting the veterans back together the nation takes apart on foreign soil) are closer to 1.25 trillion. 

    It is the proportion that is an issue.  Canada for example spends 10 times more on healthcare than its defense budget.   Proportion is out of whack and priorities are all fucked up.  I would also say spending over a trillion towards defending the country where the biggest health threat are americans having too fat of an ass is misguided.   Health care costs are too high because of a massive lawfare system.    There are lots of issues with health care, but probably the biggest is personal responsibility.  People treat their bodies like shit their whole lives and then want to be kept alive for a good decade or more through constant medical care.   Though given the propaganda of massive corporations pushing sugar, energy drinks, and fucking "fat acceptance" I am not sure who to blame. 

   Personally, I feel my expiration date will hit around 70-72, as like the man said, "I rather burn out than fade away" and I do not intend to hang around once the goods are no longer serviceable.  But to each his/her own. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 04:39:21 AM by oggsmash »

SHARK

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2021, 05:08:43 AM »
I don’t understand why the USA doesn’t have universal healthcare. 19th century Germany did.

   I do.  Because we have a FUCKING MASSIVE military.  We also have insurance companies as the #1 lobbies to congress.  Congress and the murder machine aint got no time for paying medical bills, not when more bullets, bombs and no neck spec ops guys need multi million dollar training.
2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.

   I never said it was a larger expense, I said massive.  I would also say actual defense numbers (when you start paying for the intelligence agencies, homeland "security", and putting the veterans back together the nation takes apart on foreign soil) are closer to 1.25 trillion. 

    It is the proportion that is an issue.  Canada for example spends 10 times more on healthcare than its defense budget.   Proportion is out of whack and priorities are all fucked up.  I would also say spending over a trillion towards defending the country where the biggest health threat are americans having too fat of an ass is misguided.   Health care costs are too high because of a massive lawfare system.    There are lots of issues with health care, but probably the biggest is personal responsibility.  People treat their bodies like shit their whole lives and then want to be kept alive for a good decade or more through constant medical care.   Though given the propaganda of massive corporations pushing sugar, energy drinks, and fucking "fat acceptance" I am not sure who to blame. 

   Personally, I feel my expiration date will hit around 70-72, as like the man said, "I rather burn out than fade away" and I do not tend to hand around once the goods are no longer serviceable.  But to each his/her own.

Greetings!

Yeah, OGG! I agree with you. There are definitely problems in how we spend money on the military, and on *what*. I'm definitely a pro-Defense guy as you know, but geesus, like Pat mentioning the boondoggled F-35, I admit that I'm often cynical of the Defense Department's motives, and entire procurement culture, such as it is. I know, I know, lots of this kind of nonsense goes back with a long pedigree, to for example the "geniuses" of the MacNamara era during Vietnam, where the desk-jockeys amidst the cushy offices in the Pentagon declared that the "Missile Age" was here to stay, so mounting close-in combat weapons for dogfighting on our fighters like the 20-mm cannon was obsolete. Yeah, hurredly refitting and re-ordering new fighter aircraft equipped with nose-mounted auto-cannon for close-in aerial combat cost a huge amount of *extra* money--and also cost us the lives of many brave and valiant fighter pilots that died in the air war over North Vietnam because they were under-armed and ill-equipped for aerial combat. Many of these same kinds of fucking clueless morons work in the Pentagon today, and make industrial, manufacturing, and development decisions that don't do much for providing our military forces with the best or most efficient weapons, equipment, and systems. Oftentimes, even when some new widget is perhaps *marginally* better, it still comes with an enormous and often mind-boggling price-tag.

Increasingly, I'm reminded of distinctly negative comparisons with the engineers and developers of the Third Reich during World War II, investing in models like the Jagtiger VI or whatever. These monsters were outnumbered 100 to 1 fighting against Allied or Soviet tanks, and they could only be produced in small numbers, due to German manufacturing capacity, access to rare metals, and prohibitive costs. These special, elite German tanks were cutting edge though, with the best weaponry, armour, and other characteristics. They only got like 10 miles to the gallon though, and were not only expensive and complex to make--they were expensive and complex to maintenance in the field. They also had difficulties in transporting them by train--they required special trains to get them to the theaters of war--and then, of course, they also had fits in moving on the little European roads and had problems crossing many kinds of European bridges. ::)

I sometimes think our engineers and planners in the DOD are a lot like the engineers of the Wehrmacht. Overjoyed at all kinds of new-fangled toys, but absolutely oblivious to strategic or resource considerations, as well as being entirely arrogant and contemptuous of already-active duty vehicles and weaponry that are themselves very effective, and much cheaper, and more efficient.

In healthcare, yeah, so many problems there, too. My ex-wife was high up with a huge healthcare company, and she explained to me that, something like 80% of a person's lifetime medical expenses are spent on them in the last few years of life. Families absolutely go fucking bankrupt trying to keep mom or dad alive in the final months of life oftentimes, or the last few years, with crazy high cost medicines, crazy operations, and so on. So many problems with the healthcare. The system, the costs, the whole people's attitudes about death and medical care.

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Wntrlnd

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2021, 06:50:08 AM »

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/
The child mortality rate in the United States has dropped to its lowest point ever in 2020 where it is just seven deaths per thousand births.

Congratulations. You've finally caught up with 1993 Germany.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2021, 08:26:42 AM »
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.

KingCheops

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2021, 11:55:34 AM »
Lol yes lets compare a bunch of American vassals that don't live up to their defense spending requirements to their liege-lord that protects all their asses.

Canada does actually have some threats that it needs to defend itself against but is too stupid to go about it properly because we aren't a serious nation.  Russia and Denmark in the Arctic (resource exploration); France, Spain, and Portugal in the Grand Banks (fishing); and the United States (fishing, softwood lumber, oil and gas).

Canada also has the problem with creeping totalitarianism coming from the Woke mob.  And unfortunately as the jihadists point out our laws make it easy for extremist groups to infiltrate the legal and governance processes and bend them to their needs.  Its starting to bleed out from the cities into the rural areas and due to extreme federalism we can't really stop it.  Canadians love Canada and that means one size fits all despite the individual needs or wants of the Provinces or regions -- it takes massive assholes like Quebec to be able to actually implement unpopular laws (despite the fact I like those laws).

Americans!  Never let them take away or register your guns!  I'd love to have a gun but because it'd be on a registry the RCMP would just kick down my door at 3 am and take them.  Only illegal guns make you safe in Canada.

oggsmash

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2021, 12:28:48 PM »
Lol yes lets compare a bunch of American vassals that don't live up to their defense spending requirements to their liege-lord that protects all their asses.

Canada does actually have some threats that it needs to defend itself against but is too stupid to go about it properly because we aren't a serious nation.  Russia and Denmark in the Arctic (resource exploration); France, Spain, and Portugal in the Grand Banks (fishing); and the United States (fishing, softwood lumber, oil and gas).

Canada also has the problem with creeping totalitarianism coming from the Woke mob.  And unfortunately as the jihadists point out our laws make it easy for extremist groups to infiltrate the legal and governance processes and bend them to their needs.  Its starting to bleed out from the cities into the rural areas and due to extreme federalism we can't really stop it.  Canadians love Canada and that means one size fits all despite the individual needs or wants of the Provinces or regions -- it takes massive assholes like Quebec to be able to actually implement unpopular laws (despite the fact I like those laws).

Americans!  Never let them take away or register your guns!  I'd love to have a gun but because it'd be on a registry the RCMP would just kick down my door at 3 am and take them.  Only illegal guns make you safe in Canada.

   I did not mention Canada as a model, rather a display of the massive disproportion.  If all the defense spending was a pouring in of tribute THAT BENEFITTED RANK AND FILE AMERICANS I would have a different view of "defense" spending.  As it works out now, it seems to massively benefit a tiny few and is simply a burden for the rest.  I add, as I get older I start to view the USA closer to being the Galactic Empire versus the Rebel Alliance though.   At some point you wonder if you are the good guys, or just the World Karens going about smashing into and out of everyone else's business.   It is the primary reason I made this thread, I think I am a bit over funding the mighty empire to roll over people who never did a thing to me and "spread democracy".   That and the anti white vibe is getting a good deal more traction than it should, doesnt look like a healthy future for my kids.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 12:30:26 PM by oggsmash »

Pat
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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2021, 12:36:18 PM »
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.
Yep. It's like comparing poverty rates across countries, when every country has its own idiosyncratic (and highly politicized) definition of poverty. It's worse than useless, because it's deliberately used to mislead.

oggsmash

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2021, 12:44:19 PM »
The child mortality rate is a dodge; not every country reports theirs the same way.
Yep. It's like comparing poverty rates across countries, when every country has its own idiosyncratic (and highly politicized) definition of poverty. It's worse than useless, because it's deliberately used to mislead.

    I think the poverty rate may be the most misleading.   I do love reading articles about how many children the USA has living in "poverty", listing many other nations with fewer kids in poverty, yet never bothering to show our "poverty rate" annual income is as much as 4X many of the nations that get compared in the same article.   The USA is one of the few nations where poor people are fat and have multiple color TVs.   

jhkim

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2021, 01:11:14 PM »
"If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait till it's free." --P.J. O'Rourke

There are a lot of problems with the U.S. health care system. But people who babble on about the joys of British or even Canadian healthcare have never tried to get a timely MRI procedure done in those countries.

But is that an important measure of health? The U.S. system does great at getting billable tests and procedures done, because providers make money based on how much of this they do. However, medical *outcomes* aren't overall better in the U.S. compared to other First World countries. We aren't terrible, and we do well in some areas - but by measures like life expectancy and others, we are only middle-of-the-road. Where we do stand out is in spending far more - both from government and from individuals - than other First World countries.


In healthcare, yeah, so many problems there, too. My ex-wife was high up with a huge healthcare company, and she explained to me that, something like 80% of a person's lifetime medical expenses are spent on them in the last few years of life. Families absolutely go fucking bankrupt trying to keep mom or dad alive in the final months of life oftentimes, or the last few years, with crazy high cost medicines, crazy operations, and so on. So many problems with the healthcare. The system, the costs, the whole people's attitudes about death and medical care.

I think this is in large part a function of the U.S. private health care model, where money is made based on the number of tests and procedures done, rather than based on overall outcome. The last few years of a person's life are a gold mine of potential profit, because there are so many procedures that are vital for continued living. My parents are both doctors, and my mother especially has been against the practice, and wishes to go out without such a frenzy of treatment. She had lived through her own father eating through all of his life savings in his last few years, for no significant change.

However, not doing this has been described as having horrific "death panels".


2019 numbers
Medicare + Medicaid = $1.4 trillion
All health expenditures = $3.8 trillion
Defense = $0.7 trillion

I'm all for getting rid of all these stupid wars and boondoggles like the F-35, but a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the military budget is many times the size of the medical industry, and if only we can get the military industrial complex under control, then we'll have all the money we need for free healthcare for everyone. Except that doesn't jibe with the facts. It's the other way around. Medical spending is many times larger than military spending.

I agree that it isn't the fault of military spending. However, other First World governments with universal health care generally spend *less* than the U.S. governments does on health care. So it's not per se lack of money. However, a hurdle of restructuring will be difficult both in bureaucracy and politically, and that change may be expensive to get over the hurdle.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2021, 01:26:00 PM »

But is that an important measure of health? The U.S. system does great at getting billable tests and procedures done, because providers make money based on how much of this they do. However, medical *outcomes* aren't overall better in the U.S. compared to other First World countries. We aren't terrible, and we do well in some areas - but by measures like life expectancy and others, we are only middle-of-the-road. Where we do stand out is in spending far more - both from government and from individuals - than other First World countries.
It's easy to save money on tests and procedures if you just try to wait out the patient till they get fed up or die.

Also, I'd love to see the metrics on life expectancy being used.

FelixGamingX1

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2021, 01:49:25 PM »
In theory, healthcare is pretty affordable. The problem lies in what tier you’re in. You can have $80 mo. coverage that only covers the bare minimum or you can go $200 mo. for what should be standard health coverage. I personally don’t see the point in paying minimum if you still have to cash out $$$$ in the event of a surgery. In terms of decent and affordable health coverage we need to do a lot better. Limited health insurance shouldn’t be a first world problem. Tbh I don’t see the justification why a man received a 48 page, million dollar bill for covid treatment. What’s up with the prices!? The average assistant makes $700 wk/ and let’s be frank, the braking down of specialties is rather unnecessary unless you’re treating rare deseases etc. An actual doctor should know how to treat 90% of health problems imo.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Anyone here ever seriously consider moving or move out the the USA?
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2021, 02:05:28 PM »
An actual doctor should know how to treat 90% of health problems imo.
At a basic level, they can, but nobody wants the basic level.of care in a first world nation. It's not just medicine that's like this though, there are many varieties of lawyers and engineers too and they too could all do basic work in most specialties---but nobody wants basic level results.