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Author Topic: Any Californians here?  (Read 2616 times)

oggsmash

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Re: Any Californians here?
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2021, 05:57:13 PM »
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.

I am one of the people still running a manufacturing business here in the U.S. and I can say with 100% certainty Trumps trade war harmed my business directly and forced me to downsize my business and hire fewer U.S. employees. If the intended effect was to protect our factories and U.S. workers, it had the opposite effect on my business. I can back that up with as many specifics and numbers as you'd like, though it's pretty boring.

And I am not asking Trump supporters to line up with Neocon views. I am saying Neocon views WERE conservative views in the 90s and those views you called "populist" were the blue collar Democratic views in the 90s. It ain't me who flipped their political views. Calling me a "SJW liberal" because I still support the same views as every modern nominee to the Presidency from the Republican party prior to Trump is bullshit. As you say, it's Trump who changed to a populist platform. HE was the change to what "conservative" means, not me. How am I being called a traitor to conservatism when Trump adopted Democratic views and called it "conservatism"?

  Also, I dont remember calling trump conservative...I also didnt call you anything.   As for running your manufacturing business, that is a position caused by the nation being sold off to china in many ways by those neocons, most manufacturing had long since left, sounds like you made it through it ok after firing a few people.  Best to fire end of day on Friday to prevent outbursts.

   What do you manufacture?

Mostly graduation caps and gowns. We import the inexpensive stuff which is used one time, and manufacture the custom stuff used by people who get advanced degrees (and judges robes and some similar higher end stuff). We basically have a balanced company which sells about 50% imported inexpensive goods and 50% American-made more expensive custom goods. Taxing our company for importing hurt us - and it's not like we can make those things here because all our competitors also import and price their goods accordingly. American workers don't want to make crappy cheap simple gowns day after day on an assembly line so it's not like China "stole" that manufacturing but rather our own labor pool is more skilled than that and isn't interested in those jobs. At best if we wanted to make them here we'd use robotics and not people. Anyone with sewing skills is qualified to make more advanced things than that.

If Trump wanted to benefit manufacturing, what he should have done is offer zero interest equipment loans secured by the equipment for robotics purchased from American companies who make those robotics in the U.S.. He didn't do that - all he did was tax small businesses and act like that would magically solve the issues. Which of course it didn't.

   Oh China stole it, they just took it a looong time before you were interested in the business.  Textiles had a hammer taken to it a long time ago.  I also do not think there is anything Trump could have done, or ANY politician ever could do to bring manufacturing back.   Those "crappy jobs" used to pay people's mortgages.  Globalizing labor, and allowing a constant, never ending flow of cheap labor into the country beat the brakes off those crappy job wages.   

  I said I can understand how the song Trump sang would appeal to people who saw their parents have a factory shut down thanks to allowing the labor market to be globalized (aka allowing American workers to compete with slaves for jobs).   I do agree manufacturing here should begin anew, and the focus being on robots making things (this is a huge national security issue).  But if robots are going to do all the "crappy jobs" why do we keep allowing people into the country to do "jobs americans dont want to do" (aka jobs where the labor rates are beaten into the ground) what to we do with all the people when robots are "doing all the jobs americans dont want to do"?

  We back to #learntocode and #gotolawschool?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 05:58:45 PM by oggsmash »

GriswaldTerrastone

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Re: Any Californians here?
« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2021, 09:52:57 PM »
With left and right remember that overall the Cthulhu of the left keeps swimming to the left. Therefore a mild liberal years ago is now a conservative. The old "Star Trek" is a good example of this- it is now considered politically incorrect.
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

Bunch

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Re: Any Californians here?
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2021, 01:23:47 AM »
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.

I am one of the people still running a manufacturing business here in the U.S. and I can say with 100% certainty Trumps trade war harmed my business directly and forced me to downsize my business and hire fewer U.S. employees. If the intended effect was to protect our factories and U.S. workers, it had the opposite effect on my business. I can back that up with as many specifics and numbers as you'd like, though it's pretty boring.

And I am not asking Trump supporters to line up with Neocon views. I am saying Neocon views WERE conservative views in the 90s and those views you called "populist" were the blue collar Democratic views in the 90s. It ain't me who flipped their political views. Calling me a "SJW liberal" because I still support the same views as every modern nominee to the Presidency from the Republican party prior to Trump is bullshit. As you say, it's Trump who changed to a populist platform. HE was the change to what "conservative" means, not me. How am I being called a traitor to conservatism when Trump adopted Democratic views and called it "conservatism"?

  Also, I dont remember calling trump conservative...I also didnt call you anything.   As for running your manufacturing business, that is a position caused by the nation being sold off to china in many ways by those neocons, most manufacturing had long since left, sounds like you made it through it ok after firing a few people.  Best to fire end of day on Friday to prevent outbursts.

   What do you manufacture?

Mostly graduation caps and gowns. We import the inexpensive stuff which is used one time, and manufacture the custom stuff used by people who get advanced degrees (and judges robes and some similar higher end stuff). We basically have a balanced company which sells about 50% imported inexpensive goods and 50% American-made more expensive custom goods. Taxing our company for importing hurt us - and it's not like we can make those things here because all our competitors also import and price their goods accordingly. American workers don't want to make crappy cheap simple gowns day after day on an assembly line so it's not like China "stole" that manufacturing but rather our own labor pool is more skilled than that and isn't interested in those jobs. At best if we wanted to make them here we'd use robotics and not people. Anyone with sewing skills is qualified to make more advanced things than that.

If Trump wanted to benefit manufacturing, what he should have done is offer zero interest equipment loans secured by the equipment for robotics purchased from American companies who make those robotics in the U.S.. He didn't do that - all he did was tax small businesses and act like that would magically solve the issues. Which of course it didn't.
I'm with you.  Somehow the party I supported for four decades flew off into lala land and the only thing I can see saving it from total irrelevance is it's competition said "You think that's crazy? Hold my beer!". I won't be surprised if a moderate independent or hell even Romney ran as a third party candidate and did so surprisingly better than expected it pulled the other two parties off the brink.  But I won't hold my breath. 

RPGPundit

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Re: Any Californians here?
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2021, 09:56:40 AM »
This is of no interest to me.
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