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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 19, 2021, 03:44:57 PM

Title: Any Californians here?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 19, 2021, 03:44:57 PM
I've heard from people like "Nerdrotic" that in California- parts of it, anyway- that shoplifting has been decriminalized, human feces are in the streets with syringes, and roughly 50% of the small businesses- and a few large ones- are gone.

Is it really that bad now? If you live in California is this true?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 20, 2021, 08:15:58 AM
I've heard from people like "Nerdrotic" that in California- parts of it, anyway- that shoplifting has been decriminalized, human feces are in the streets with syringes, and roughly 50% of the small businesses- and a few large ones- are gone.

Is it really that bad now? If you live in California is this true?
While I do not live in California, I will take a stab at this. The answer is (unsurprisingly) 'it's complicated'.

California is more than just LA, SF, and the coastline. As a state, it's stuck in deep blue mode. Going by counties, though, the further you get from LA or SF, it starts to shift purple and even red. This is the reason why elections in Cali are set up with that weird 'only top two advance' -- ideally, to push a situation where the top two contenders are both Democrats.

But wait, the plot thickens!

There was a major push with outside money (coughSoroscoughBloomberg) to elect district attorneys with a strongly left political bent. This is why you have people like George Gascon and Chesa Boudin in those slots. They are absolutely dedicated progressives, as shown in their policy decisions.

The problem, though, is that those decisions are absolutely terrible. California passed a law (Proposition 47) that treats theft under $950 as a misdemeanor.  While it's not decriminalized, misdemeanors are barely worth the time to issue the ticket, so chances are the cops won't even show. This has resulted in stores becoming 'hardened' against theft (merchandise in locked cases), restricting hours, or simply closing up.

Laws against other acts (such as public indecency, trespassing, defecation/urination on the street, etc) have also been either reduced or decriminalized entirely. The unwillingness to enforce property law against homeless squatters doesn't help either.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 20, 2021, 09:38:39 AM
  I think calling boudin a progressive is perfuming and polishing a turd.  He is outright communist.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: jhkim on August 20, 2021, 01:08:39 PM
I've heard from people like "Nerdrotic" that in California- parts of it, anyway- that shoplifting has been decriminalized, human feces are in the streets with syringes, and roughly 50% of the small businesses- and a few large ones- are gone.

Is it really that bad now? If you live in California is this true?

Hi, GriswaldTerrastone. I've lived in California since 1998 - in my current town of Redwood City since 2000.

(1) As Ghostmaker said, shoplifting is generally a misdemeanor like assault or trespassing. As far as I know, it's true in nearly all states that shoplifting under X amount is a misdemeanor. (2) I'm sure that somewhere in the state there is human feces on the street, but I don't see it. I think I saw some once when I went past a vacant lot seven years ago. (3) I don't have up-to-date data, but I'm pretty sure that is completely wrong. In Sep 2020, the stats I saw were:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/small-business-closures.png)
Source: https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/business-closures-update-sep-2020

So that's 19 closed out of 1000 or 1.9%, which is significantly higher than the 11 closed out of 1000 in Texas, say, but that's a lot different than 50%. That was last year. There has been recovery in the spring of 2021, though we are now facing trouble again. Yelp had an summer 2021 update (https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/june-economic-recovery-report.html) that included some general other stats like increased consumer interest but didn't update the closure numbers. I've seen a few retail closures in my area, but it seems roughly like the 2% from the report.

In general, I like California but it's certainly a mixed bag. It has great natural beauty and a creative culture, but the housing prices are ridiculous. It's roughly average in the nation for crime stats, mediocre at best in K-12 education though the UC system is quite good.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 20, 2021, 01:34:37 PM
I've heard from people like "Nerdrotic" that in California- parts of it, anyway- that shoplifting has been decriminalized, human feces are in the streets with syringes, and roughly 50% of the small businesses- and a few large ones- are gone.

Is it really that bad now? If you live in California is this true?

Hi, GriswaldTerrastone. I've lived in California since 1998 - in my current town of Redwood City since 2000.

(1) As Ghostmaker said, shoplifting is generally a misdemeanor like assault or trespassing. As far as I know, it's true in nearly all states that shoplifting under X amount is a misdemeanor. (2) I'm sure that somewhere in the state there is human feces on the street, but I don't see it. I think I saw some once when I went past a vacant lot seven years ago. (3) I don't have up-to-date data, but I'm pretty sure that is completely wrong. In Sep 2020, the stats I saw were:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/small-business-closures.png)
Source: https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/business-closures-update-sep-2020

So that's 19 closed out of 1000 or 1.9%, which is significantly higher than the 11 closed out of 1000 in Texas, say, but that's a lot different than 50%. That was last year. There has been recovery in the spring of 2021, though we are now facing trouble again. Yelp had an summer 2021 update (https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/june-economic-recovery-report.html) that included some general other stats like increased consumer interest but didn't update the closure numbers. I've seen a few retail closures in my area, but it seems roughly like the 2% from the report.

In general, I like California but it's certainly a mixed bag. It has great natural beauty and a creative culture, but the housing prices are ridiculous. It's roughly average in the nation for crime stats, mediocre at best in K-12 education though the UC system is quite good.
I dunno about fifty percent, but having almost 40,000 business closures (both temporary and permanent) with over half of those being in LA and SF doesn't scream 'healthy economic environment' to me.

We're not dealing with just some poxy teenager shoplifting candy bars either. You had people walking into stores, shoveling merch into a bag, and walking out. And then the items got resold online -- pure profit for the thieves. https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-becerra-announces-arrests-and-charges-major-bay-area-theft-ring was ONE such ring.

Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 20, 2021, 02:10:16 PM
I've heard from people like "Nerdrotic" that in California- parts of it, anyway- that shoplifting has been decriminalized, human feces are in the streets with syringes, and roughly 50% of the small businesses- and a few large ones- are gone.

Is it really that bad now? If you live in California is this true?

I am in California.

1) Shoplifting is one I can speak to with some educated opinions as my first job was working security for a department store where we placed shoplifters under citizen arrest and then called the police to get them, and had to testify against them sometimes at trial. Yes, there are meaningful changes to the laws here concerning shoplifting. It is not entirely decriminalized however there are monetary limits on whether a shoplifting charge is a misdemeanor ("petty theft) or felony ("grand theft") and California has hiked the felony monetary limit up to make it much more difficult for a shoplifting charge to be a felony charge. It used to be a lower sum could get to a felony but now it's up to $950. However there remain civil penalties for shoplifting of any kind, and there are some grand theft charges still in place for special types of shoplifting like stealing a firearm, or shoplifting during a state of emergency like a riot or earthquake or such.

2) Homelessness: Yes, it's much worse than it was before. No, the streets are not in general littered with feces and syringes, but the places where this was always happened (like Skid Row) have expanded and there is certainly more of it and covering more square footage than before. Still, I can go for a walk with my kid safely and not encounter any feces or syringes in my neighborhood. But it's definitely a meaningfully larger problem than it was before. A lot of this is related to housing prices, but not all of it. Some of it also relates to more lax criminal laws and enforcement (if you release prisoners more, they often end up homeless) and poor mental health laws and investment (if you close mental health facilities and get rid of the ability to force someone into mental health treatment, you have more people with mental health problems on the streets.)

3) I run a small business here. It is harder to continue to operate, but it's frankly absurd to claim 50% of small businesses have gone away here. California is the land of the corner mini-mall. You cannot throw a rock without hitting a small business of some kind here. 99.8% of California businesses (3.8 million) are small businesses. 95.9% of California exporters are small businesses. 49.2% of California employees (6.8 million people) are employed by small businesses. Net job growth was strongest among businesses with less than 20 employees.  The California Government has been pretty decent for small businesses who are on the ball and know how to apply and has been providing grants and other relief during the pandemic to help small businesses survive.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: jhkim on August 20, 2021, 02:23:43 PM
I dunno about fifty percent, but having almost 40,000 business closures (both temporary and permanent) with over half of those being in LA and SF doesn't scream 'healthy economic environment' to me.

No, obviously it's not healthy, but the whole world is having a hard time. GriswaldTerrastone had some specific questions, and specifically asked about people living in California - so I tried to answer them. In general, California has some huge economic successes but also some huge economic struggles.


We're not dealing with just some poxy teenager shoplifting candy bars either. You had people walking into stores, shoveling merch into a bag, and walking out. And then the items got resold online -- pure profit for the thieves. https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-becerra-announces-arrests-and-charges-major-bay-area-theft-ring was ONE such ring.

We have both poxy teenagers shoplifting and mass shoplifting rings. The same is true in other states. Here's some examples from different states including CA:

https://tampa.cbslocal.com/2020/12/20/7-arrested-in-florida-retail-theft-ring-costing-retailers-nearly-85k-3/

https://www.texomashomepage.com/news/local-news/man-sentenced-for-role-in-walmart-theft-ring/

https://www.ocregister.com/2021/04/01/authorities-break-up-southern-california-grocery-theft-ring-2-men-arrested/
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 20, 2021, 02:40:57 PM
    Hey, as long as we do not hit those 90's crime levels of homicide we are all good to go, amirite?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Shasarak on August 20, 2021, 08:50:51 PM
I am not from California but there is a chance for redemption:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9QbhxNXoAAiLp7?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Trond on August 20, 2021, 08:56:04 PM
I live in the greater LA area. We have a growing homelessness problem for sure, but the feces on the street thing is mostly in parts of San Francisco and maybe worst parts of LA (I saw one person pooping on the street in Santa Monica). In some areas they are running into such issues more and more and there is real anger against Gavin Newsom. But I wouldn't exaggerate it either; many parts of California are still gorgeous, particularly the natural parks if you ask me (the cities are a bit over-hyped), at least the part of the wilderness that isn't burning. Thankfully, many species here have fire adaptations (giant sequoias for instance). Just a little biologist note there.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 20, 2021, 09:08:43 PM
I live in the greater LA area. We have a growing homelessness problem for sure, but the feces on the street thing is mostly in parts of San Francisco and maybe worst parts of LA (I saw one person pooping on the street in Santa Monica). In some areas they are running into such issues more and more and there is real anger against Gavin Newsom. But I wouldn't exaggerate it either; many parts of California are still gorgeous, particularly the natural parks if you ask me (the cities are a bit over-hyped), at least the part of the wilderness that isn't burning. Thankfully, many species here have fire adaptations (giant sequoias for instance). Just a little biologist note there.

  When I visited, I only really got to look around Lake Tahoe (which I guess is Cali and Nevada) and it is beautiful there, no question. 
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 20, 2021, 09:50:36 PM
I am not from California but there is a chance for redemption:


I am a big supporter of the recall (got some signatures for it) and the recall of DA Gascon (got some signatures for it and hope to get many more).

It's pretty funny seeing all these supposed pro-democracy pro-voter people trying to argue you shouldn't vote in the second question of the recall and calling recalls a huge waste of time.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 20, 2021, 10:36:58 PM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Trond on August 21, 2021, 09:36:34 AM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 22, 2021, 08:31:17 AM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 22, 2021, 10:23:30 AM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 22, 2021, 06:11:53 PM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...

You are the last person around to be lecturing others on the topic of self reflection after your lack of it lately.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 22, 2021, 06:35:35 PM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...

You are the last person around to be lecturing others on the topic of self reflection after your lack of it lately.
LOL! Pot, meet kettle.  Must have stung you pretty hard to have you chase me through threads.  Cry harder...
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 22, 2021, 08:19:19 PM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...

You are the last person around to be lecturing others on the topic of self reflection after your lack of it lately.
LOL! Pot, meet kettle.  Must have stung you pretty hard to have you chase me through threads.  Cry harder...

Bootlickers messing with you?  Man we need to get rid of them.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 22, 2021, 10:23:13 PM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...

You are the last person around to be lecturing others on the topic of self reflection after your lack of it lately.
LOL! Pot, meet kettle.  Must have stung you pretty hard to have you chase me through threads.  Cry harder...

Bootlickers messing with you?  Man we need to get rid of them.

And the irony comes full circle. "Dissent is totalitarianism. Ban the dissenters!"
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Snowman0147 on August 23, 2021, 09:51:51 AM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...

You are the last person around to be lecturing others on the topic of self reflection after your lack of it lately.
LOL! Pot, meet kettle.  Must have stung you pretty hard to have you chase me through threads.  Cry harder...

Bootlickers messing with you?  Man we need to get rid of them.

And the irony comes full circle. "Dissent is totalitarianism. Ban the dissenters!"

Yes you do need to get ban.  Your not here for a conversation your here to shut us up and piss on our actual concerns.  Not only that, but your a fucking traitor to your country, to everything that is good, and sold yourself off like a whore like the rest of your neo con kin.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 23, 2021, 10:07:13 AM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...

You are the last person around to be lecturing others on the topic of self reflection after your lack of it lately.
LOL! Pot, meet kettle.  Must have stung you pretty hard to have you chase me through threads.  Cry harder...

Bootlickers messing with you?  Man we need to get rid of them.

And the irony comes full circle. "Dissent is totalitarianism. Ban the dissenters!"

Yes you do need to get ban.  Your not here for a conversation your here to shut us up and piss on our actual concerns.  Not only that, but your a fucking traitor to your country, to everything that is good, and sold yourself off like a whore like the rest of your neo con kin.

LOL but remember folks, I am the totalitarian here! Dissent must be silenced!

Seriously, you're just like a good little SJW. Someone disagrees with your view of the world and you want to cancel them because you can't handle a dissenting voice.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 23, 2021, 11:41:54 AM
"Larry Elder is the black face of white supremacy."

Translation: don't let that free man lure more slaves off the plantation.

Yeah, I went there.

The LA Times article you quote almost went there on its own:

“Like a lot of Black people, though, I've learned that it's often best just to ignore people like Elder. People who are — as my dad used to say — skin folk, but not necessarily kin folk.”
'How dare you yearn to breathe free, bigot!'

Jesus. These people have no self-reflection at all.
Self-reflection means you may find that you are partially at fault for what ails you.  Which then means you must make efforts to correct what is wrong with you as part of the healing process.  And effort is antithetical to these people.  Their entire world-view revolves around finding reasons while everyone else must fix their problems for them.  They are lazy children, who never want to grow up...

You are the last person around to be lecturing others on the topic of self reflection after your lack of it lately.
LOL! Pot, meet kettle.  Must have stung you pretty hard to have you chase me through threads.  Cry harder...

Bootlickers messing with you?  Man we need to get rid of them.

And the irony comes full circle. "Dissent is totalitarianism. Ban the dissenters!"

Yes you do need to get ban.  Your not here for a conversation your here to shut us up and piss on our actual concerns.  Not only that, but your a fucking traitor to your country, to everything that is good, and sold yourself off like a whore like the rest of your neo con kin.

LOL but remember folks, I am the totalitarian here! Dissent must be silenced!

Seriously, you're just like a good little SJW. Someone disagrees with your view of the world and you want to cancel them because you can't handle a dissenting voice.
He just needs a cozy safe space to share with those that diversely think the exact same way.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 23, 2021, 07:46:33 PM
Looks like I did it again...
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 24, 2021, 10:39:13 PM
I'm not a Californian, but I've lived in this state for 4 decades, in the North, Central and Southern areas. It's most assuredly not the place it once was.

California is huge, like bigger than many countries huge. It's far too large in populated land and populace to be one state and that's the cause of many of our problems. If California was at least chopped into North & South like other state splits, things would be better, but realistically it should be 3-5 smaller states.

Our K-12 education system is absolute shit and our colleges are communist indoctrination centers. But not smart Soviet scientists. The CSU and UC system crank out immature and entitled clowns with overpriced degrees.

Non-violent crime like petty theft has effectively been decriminalized in the cities. Regardless of what's on the books at the moment, the reality now is non-violent criminals have free reign with scant punishments if caught.

The biggest violent crime problem is homeless-on-homeless violence. Lots of rape reports. They generally don't mess with people, but you often see drugged up nutbag behaviors and anywhere they congregate smells like piss and looks like a 3rd world refugee nightmare...in the wealthiest (and most libtard voting) cities in America.

Notice how I separated "homeless" and "people"? Yeah, nobody views them as human. Giant panhandling rats that make warrens under freeways and beg for drug money.

Wildfires have become normalized now. Libtards keep crying "climate change", yet the reports of arson, mismanagement and homeless camps ablaze are the real culprits. It's a regular thing for dozens of acres of urban park areas to go up in smoke, and that's not counting the giant fires involving thousands of acres of forests.

I'm actually cool with the fires. Not great for Man, but vast fires serve their purpose in nature, and if you ever hike in a post-fire area, you'll see what I mean over time.

On the plus side, the beaches and weather are gorgeous. The climate is extremely varied as is the topography. For instance, from downtown LA, you are 2 hours from numerous beaches, multiple snow play mountain resorts, vast empty deserts and all the urban delights you can imagine.

However, the state has declined for decades - mostly due to illegal immigration and other idiocy, but its nearly in freefall now. In many ways, California isn't even recognizably part of America anymore. LA is fast becoming Mexico City, except with way more expensive real estate (but a massive crash is incoming).

The moment I'm in a position to escape, I'm gone. Maybe sooner if the CoronaChan retardation keeps getting more draconian.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 24, 2021, 10:43:24 PM
This is all very depressing to someone my age. Back in the early 1980's things were so hopeful.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Shasarak on August 25, 2021, 01:16:31 AM
This is all very depressing to someone my age. Back in the early 1980's things were so hopeful.

It may have been hopeful in the early 80s but by the 90s?

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-whNp39BcYc/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ocule on August 26, 2021, 11:40:34 AM
California is a beautiful state, the only problem is it's full of Californians
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2021, 02:01:22 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really). 
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 04:12:49 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

  I guess right leaning people can thank good old Ronald Regan for fucking them over in cali then I guess.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 05:16:48 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 05:47:49 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

   Well, I do not blame a scorpion for stinging me if I pick it up.  When my own dog bites me, that pisses me off.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 26, 2021, 06:21:50 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 06:56:25 PM
Well, I do not blame a scorpion for stinging me if I pick it up.  When my own dog bites me, that pisses me off.

Uniparty is gonna Uniparty.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: jhkim on August 26, 2021, 07:29:44 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

I'm not fully disagreeing - the elite of both sides want a cheap, disposable workforce. But as implied by this, the problem isn't specific to California. Nevada and Texas both have more unauthorized immigrants as a percentage of population than California does.

Nevada: 7.1%
Texas: 5.7%
California: 5.6%

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/interactives/u-s-unauthorized-immigrants-by-state/

Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Spinachcat on August 26, 2021, 08:14:22 PM
There's a census for illegal aliens??? LOL. No.

We have no idea how many illegals and criminal scum have invaded America - literally over decades from multiple countries and continents. Everything is just "best guesses" and the numbers are whatever each side wants them to be because roaches hide in walls, scurrying and breeding and don't line up to be counted.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2021, 09:04:54 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

I'm not fully disagreeing - the elite of both sides want a cheap, disposable workforce. But as implied by this, the problem isn't specific to California. Nevada and Texas both have more unauthorized immigrants as a percentage of population than California does.

Nevada: 7.1%
Texas: 5.7%
California: 5.6%

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/interactives/u-s-unauthorized-immigrants-by-state/

So what you are saying is...

Nevada           210,000
Texas           1,600,000
California     2,200,000

Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 09:07:51 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

I'm not fully disagreeing - the elite of both sides want a cheap, disposable workforce. But as implied by this, the problem isn't specific to California. Nevada and Texas both have more unauthorized immigrants as a percentage of population than California does.

Nevada: 7.1%
Texas: 5.7%
California: 5.6%

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/interactives/u-s-unauthorized-immigrants-by-state/

So what you are saying is...

Nevada           210,000
Texas           1,600,000
California     2,200,000

  In 2016, and very much estimated numbers of people in the USA illegally, but if accurate regarding proportions, could prove very interesting with another reaganesque amnesty.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2021, 09:15:45 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

I'm not fully disagreeing - the elite of both sides want a cheap, disposable workforce. But as implied by this, the problem isn't specific to California. Nevada and Texas both have more unauthorized immigrants as a percentage of population than California does.

Nevada: 7.1%
Texas: 5.7%
California: 5.6%

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/interactives/u-s-unauthorized-immigrants-by-state/

So what you are saying is...

Nevada           210,000
Texas           1,600,000
California     2,200,000

  In 2016, and very much estimated numbers of people in the USA illegally, but if accurate regarding proportions, could prove very interesting with another reaganesque amnesty.

Hell, I thought the interesting bit of the study was that they estimated that the illegal alien population dropped by 1.5 million from 2007 to 2016.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

I'm not fully disagreeing - the elite of both sides want a cheap, disposable workforce. But as implied by this, the problem isn't specific to California. Nevada and Texas both have more unauthorized immigrants as a percentage of population than California does.

Nevada: 7.1%
Texas: 5.7%
California: 5.6%

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/interactives/u-s-unauthorized-immigrants-by-state/

So what you are saying is...

Nevada           210,000
Texas           1,600,000
California     2,200,000

  In 2016, and very much estimated numbers of people in the USA illegally, but if accurate regarding proportions, could prove very interesting with another reaganesque amnesty.

Hell, I thought the interesting bit of the study was that they estimated that the illegal alien population dropped by 1.5 million from 2007 to 2016.

  Well, these estimates of illegal immigrant population seemed to be at 11 million for a very, very long time.   Now it seems some studies put the number much higher.  I suspect the nature of being in the country outside of being here lawfully, might make it very hard to be sure how many people are here illegally.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: moonsweeper on August 26, 2021, 09:51:15 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

I'm not fully disagreeing - the elite of both sides want a cheap, disposable workforce. But as implied by this, the problem isn't specific to California. Nevada and Texas both have more unauthorized immigrants as a percentage of population than California does.

Nevada: 7.1%
Texas: 5.7%
California: 5.6%

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/interactives/u-s-unauthorized-immigrants-by-state/

So what you are saying is...

Nevada           210,000
Texas           1,600,000
California     2,200,000

  In 2016, and very much estimated numbers of people in the USA illegally, but if accurate regarding proportions, could prove very interesting with another reaganesque amnesty.

Hell, I thought the interesting bit of the study was that they estimated that the illegal alien population dropped by 1.5 million from 2007 to 2016.

  Well, these estimates of illegal immigrant population seemed to be at 11 million for a very, very long time.   Now it seems some studies put the number much higher.  I suspect the nature of being in the country outside of being here lawfully, might make it very hard to be sure how many people are here illegally.

Yeah.  I imagine it is similar to the reason that they can't get a real accurate amount for how much money is transferred through the black market (drugs, etc.).
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 26, 2021, 10:00:08 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters. Californians got slammed by both sides and crumbled.

I'm not fully disagreeing - the elite of both sides want a cheap, disposable workforce. But as implied by this, the problem isn't specific to California. Nevada and Texas both have more unauthorized immigrants as a percentage of population than California does.

Nevada: 7.1%
Texas: 5.7%
California: 5.6%

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/interactives/u-s-unauthorized-immigrants-by-state/

So what you are saying is...

Nevada           210,000
Texas           1,600,000
California     2,200,000

  In 2016, and very much estimated numbers of people in the USA illegally, but if accurate regarding proportions, could prove very interesting with another reaganesque amnesty.

Hell, I thought the interesting bit of the study was that they estimated that the illegal alien population dropped by 1.5 million from 2007 to 2016.

  Well, these estimates of illegal immigrant population seemed to be at 11 million for a very, very long time.   Now it seems some studies put the number much higher.  I suspect the nature of being in the country outside of being here lawfully, might make it very hard to be sure how many people are here illegally.

Yeah.  I imagine it is similar to the reason that they can't get a real accurate amount for how much money is transferred through the black market (drugs, etc.).

  I think reasons for lack of accuracy there are because of how many people with DC addresses get a taste.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: jhkim on August 27, 2021, 01:38:10 PM
 
There's a census for illegal aliens??? LOL. No.

We have no idea how many illegals and criminal scum have invaded America - literally over decades from multiple countries and continents. Everything is just "best guesses" and the numbers are whatever each side wants them to be because roaches hide in walls, scurrying and breeding and don't line up to be counted.
Hell, I thought the interesting bit of the study was that they estimated that the illegal alien population dropped by 1.5 million from 2007 to 2016.
  Well, these estimates of illegal immigrant population seemed to be at 11 million for a very, very long time.   Now it seems some studies put the number much higher.  I suspect the nature of being in the country outside of being here lawfully, might make it very hard to be sure how many people are here illegally.

Obviously the numbers are estimated rather than exact. There's uncertainty, but there are bounds to how uncertain the estimates are. I've seen numbers for total ranging from 10 to 14 million. It's hard to give strict certainty on those, but we know it's not 3 million or 30 million.

Multiple estimates from different sources, though, still put Texas and California with roughly the same fraction of illegal immigrants. For example, the anti-immigration advocacy organization FAIR has different data here:

https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/2020-how-many-illegal-aliens-us

Their estimates are overall higher, but the relative state comparison seem roughly similar. They give around 8% in NV, 7% in CA and TX, 6% in AZ, and 5% in NM, FL and NY.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 03:46:19 PM
There's a census for illegal aliens??? LOL. No.

We have no idea how many illegals and criminal scum have invaded America - literally over decades from multiple countries and continents. Everything is just "best guesses" and the numbers are whatever each side wants them to be because roaches hide in walls, scurrying and breeding and don't line up to be counted.
Hell, I thought the interesting bit of the study was that they estimated that the illegal alien population dropped by 1.5 million from 2007 to 2016.
  Well, these estimates of illegal immigrant population seemed to be at 11 million for a very, very long time.   Now it seems some studies put the number much higher.  I suspect the nature of being in the country outside of being here lawfully, might make it very hard to be sure how many people are here illegally.

Obviously the numbers are estimated rather than exact. There's uncertainty, but there are bounds to how uncertain the estimates are. I've seen numbers for total ranging from 10 to 14 million. It's hard to give strict certainty on those, but we know it's not 3 million or 30 million.

Multiple estimates from different sources, though, still put Texas and California with roughly the same fraction of illegal immigrants. For example, the anti-immigration advocacy organization FAIR has different data here:

https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/2020-how-many-illegal-aliens-us

Their estimates are overall higher, but the relative state comparison seem roughly similar. They give around 8% in NV, 7% in CA and TX, 6% in AZ, and 5% in NM, FL and NY.

  It is a lot closer to 30 million than 3 million.   At least according to some big brains over at Yale.    https://thehill.com/latino/407848-yale-mit-study-22-million-not-11-million-undocumented-immigrants-in-us
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: SHARK on August 27, 2021, 04:48:46 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And just think about the *hordes* of illegal immigrants pouring into the country all along the southern border. Each and every fucking day! But the goddamned Democrats LOVE IT! They love their policy of giving out money, health care, housing, and even VOTING rights to illegal immigrants.

Just let them pour in by the fucking millions!

That is going to ass-fuck this country in so many ways. But the good, sweet, Democrats don't give a fuck. Live in your shit-hole cities and choke on all that wonderful, vibrant duhversatay!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: jhkim on August 27, 2021, 05:25:27 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters.

Ahh, yes. And just think about the *hordes* of illegal immigrants pouring into the country all along the southern border. Each and every fucking day! But the goddamned Democrats LOVE IT! They love their policy of giving out money, health care, housing, and even VOTING rights to illegal immigrants.

I agree with Spinachcat here. It's both Republicans and Democrats who are supporting the situation. Republican politicians will try to play up crime numbers and deport thousands of undesirables to seem tough, while still intentionally keeping millions of the more productive ones in the country for cheap labor. Democrat politicians will play up abuse of illegal immigrants and deport slightly less, giving them some token services while continuing to exploit the cheap labor.

As I've said before, the only workable solution is to see this as a problem of *employers*. It's the companies exploiting cheap labor that are the primary problem. If there were any teeth to prosecuting them, then they would stop paying to bring and keep the laborer population here.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 07:29:54 PM
It wasn't just the Reagan amnesty disaster. It was the Uniparty loving illegals for their purposes. The left's elite wants poor ignorant voters and the right's elite wants cheap labor to drag down salaries and crime to scare voters.

Ahh, yes. And just think about the *hordes* of illegal immigrants pouring into the country all along the southern border. Each and every fucking day! But the goddamned Democrats LOVE IT! They love their policy of giving out money, health care, housing, and even VOTING rights to illegal immigrants.

I agree with Spinachcat here. It's both Republicans and Democrats who are supporting the situation. Republican politicians will try to play up crime numbers and deport thousands of undesirables to seem tough, while still intentionally keeping millions of the more productive ones in the country for cheap labor. Democrat politicians will play up abuse of illegal immigrants and deport slightly less, giving them some token services while continuing to exploit the cheap labor.

As I've said before, the only workable solution is to see this as a problem of *employers*. It's the companies exploiting cheap labor that are the primary problem. If there were any teeth to prosecuting them, then they would stop paying to bring and keep the laborer population here.

  How many illegals have you ever worked with?   I ask, because I often hear this as a solution, from both left and right.  However, it is almost always from people who know pretty much zero people who are illegal on a first name basis.    I can tell you, there will NEVER be any way to do a thing to employers.  I have watched, with my own eyes an employer call the Social Security office about a SSN they felt looked odd (I think the sequence struck him as strange for some reason) and the folks working for the government told him, point blank the person's status was not his concern, at all.  They told him just to make sure he withheld payroll taxes and that was the end of his concern.   I have seen the same fellow get a call about another employee who had a SSN that happened to be shared by 8 other people.  He asked if he needed to give any information about the employee, or if he should fire him, the folks told him to simply ask the fellow for a new SSN or tax ID, while making sure to withhold payroll taxes.  The guy said he would have a new one Monday, and he did   One guy actually got into a shitload of trouble, because he too came up with a shared SSN, and one of the fellows also happened to share his first name.   Problem is, the other dude was wanted for multiple homicides in California and New Mexico (apparently he was a Cartel enforcer).   Now our guy was about 5'5" and maybe 120lbs soaking wet.  The description of the enforcer was 6'1" and 200+.  All the same the kid was held in prison (not jail, but prison, they put super serious felons in the State prison to await trial) and finally after a month (and him being scared shitless being in a level 4 prison for a while) the dipshit DEA realized our guy could not be their guy, and they dropped charges.  He came back,  boss called about what to do, since his last SSN was fake, government told him to tell the kid to supply a new one.  He started back to work.

   Do you see a pattern here?   The government does not give a shit about who is sending in the payroll taxes as long as the money comes in.  You can say crack down on employers, but the reality is people who are illegal supply all paper work, all documents to work (and now I think instead of fake SSN's or those from dead people, old people, etc) they have a system for a person to have a tax ID despite having no green card and no status, and even if an employer pushes it, the government simply takes no action and encourages a work around.   Something may have changed in actual practice now, but I know this is how it was in 1998-2004.   I have a feeling not much has changed, and attempting to hang this on employers is sort of like suspending rent but expecting the actual landlord to still pay the mortgage. 

   As for cheap labor?  Well, I do think the people who China and India send here to do tech jobs do work at a substantially lower rate, but the guys sweating on the construction site *might* be willing to work for a bit less (the younger guys are pretty good about bunking up in a house, so they can minimize expenses to start working for maybe a dollar an hour less) but not for the most part.  This is sort of wine and cheese fair tale that I do not see happen in real time.  I think the way the labor may be cheaper is simply increasing the number of people able to do entry level jobs,  but that is a supply and demand thing, not a case of paying people less just because they are illegal.   Other states could have sweat shop type stuff going on, so I can not comment.  I can comment on what the 14 guys I supervised made, and where their wages started as unskilled labor. 

   Unions are against this sort of thing because it can flood a market with labor.  Democrats used to be for unions, and were at least giving lip service to stopping illegal immigration (just like Republicans pretended to care).  But huge industrial farms, meat processing plants, and other sorts of jobs are often the entry level for guys coming here illegally with no connections (most move on from these sorts of jobs, as they suck) so Republicans were never going to stop giving their donors labor, and once Democrats figured out people who were the children of illegals voted 65-70 percent democrat, they sort of tossed the unions under the bus. 

   I think there are lots of myths about employers and illegal immigration.  Reality is who is in office has a whole lot to do with how it is handled than anything written on paper.  I also know an ICE supervisor, and how much he worked went from pretty much nothing until 2016 and then he was busting his ass, and now it is back to very little work.  So reality is it is a complete mess.   
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 27, 2021, 07:38:37 PM
  I would also say when the folks here on visas from China and India, or when India can stop goofing up code and needing it fixed, and it can be fully outsourced, I think there are suddenly going to be a shitload of white collar workers who understand the plight of factory/construction/blue collar workers a whole hell of a lot more.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 10:44:45 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And just think about the *hordes* of illegal immigrants pouring into the country all along the southern border. Each and every fucking day! But the goddamned Democrats LOVE IT! They love their policy of giving out money, health care, housing, and even VOTING rights to illegal immigrants.

Just let them pour in by the fucking millions!

That is going to ass-fuck this country in so many ways. But the good, sweet, Democrats don't give a fuck. Live in your shit-hole cities and choke on all that wonderful, vibrant duhversatay!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Which shit hole cities are those, Shark? Be specific. Cities in Texas, for example? Nevada? Florida? Georgia? Arizona? Tell how these immigrants from Mexico, central and south America are only in "Democrat" territories. This should be good.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: SHARK on August 27, 2021, 11:39:16 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And just think about the *hordes* of illegal immigrants pouring into the country all along the southern border. Each and every fucking day! But the goddamned Democrats LOVE IT! They love their policy of giving out money, health care, housing, and even VOTING rights to illegal immigrants.

Just let them pour in by the fucking millions!

That is going to ass-fuck this country in so many ways. But the good, sweet, Democrats don't give a fuck. Live in your shit-hole cities and choke on all that wonderful, vibrant duhversatay!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Which shit hole cities are those, Shark? Be specific. Cities in Texas, for example? Nevada? Florida? Georgia? Arizona? Tell how these immigrants from Mexico, central and south America are only in "Democrat" territories. This should be good.

Greetings!

Cities throughout Texas, Arizona, and California, in particular, Mistwell. Huge expenses involved with the hordes of illegal immigrants. Ever been to an emergency room at midnight in Santa Ana, Orange County? FULL of illegal immigrants. Huge numbers of criminals in US prisons--are illegal immigrants.

Haven't you seen the videos and interviews along the southern border? ICE officials have said it is an absolute disaster, with hordes of illegal immigrants pouring into the country, every day. Gun battles with US farmers and ranchers being attacked by illegal immigrants.

And meanwhile, Liberal Democrat politicians want to hand out all kinds of goodies to illegal immigrants.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 27, 2021, 11:49:48 PM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And just think about the *hordes* of illegal immigrants pouring into the country all along the southern border. Each and every fucking day! But the goddamned Democrats LOVE IT! They love their policy of giving out money, health care, housing, and even VOTING rights to illegal immigrants.

Just let them pour in by the fucking millions!

That is going to ass-fuck this country in so many ways. But the good, sweet, Democrats don't give a fuck. Live in your shit-hole cities and choke on all that wonderful, vibrant duhversatay!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Which shit hole cities are those, Shark? Be specific. Cities in Texas, for example? Nevada? Florida? Georgia? Arizona? Tell how these immigrants from Mexico, central and south America are only in "Democrat" territories. This should be good.

Greetings!

Cities throughout Texas, Arizona, and California, in particular, Mistwell. Huge expenses involved with the hordes of illegal immigrants. Ever been to an emergency room at midnight in Santa Ana, Orange County? FULL of illegal immigrants. Huge numbers of criminals in US prisons--are illegal immigrants.

Haven't you seen the videos and interviews along the southern border? ICE officials have said it is an absolute disaster, with hordes of illegal immigrants pouring into the country, every day. Gun battles with US farmers and ranchers being attacked by illegal immigrants.

And meanwhile, Liberal Democrat politicians want to hand out all kinds of goodies to illegal immigrants.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Here are the top ten states, in order, for illegal immigration by percentage of population: Nevada, Texas, California, New Jersey, Maryland, Arizona, Georgia, Florida, Massachusetts, New York. Now to me four of those ten are Republican leaning states (Texas, Arizona, Georgia, Florida), one leans slightly Republican (Nevada), and the rest lean Democratic.

Here are the top ten states with highest population of K-12 students with illegal immigrant parents, in order: Nevada, Texas, California, Arizona, Colorado, Nebraska, Washington, North Carolina, New Jersey, Georgia. Now to me half of those are Republican leaning (Texas Arizona, Nebraska, North Carolina), one leans slightly Republican (Nevada), one leans slightly Democratic (Colorado), and three lean Democratic (California, Washington and New Jersey).

Strangely, the top ten states where illegal immigration makes up the largest percentage of total immigrants in those states are almost all Republican leaning: Nebraska, Arkansas, North Carolina, Utah, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Idaho, Georgia, Louisiana, Nevada.

This hardly seems like a picture of "Shit hole Democrat" cities. It's actually an issue spread roughly evenly over the full spectrum of states based on partisanship.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Willmark on August 28, 2021, 09:39:06 AM
Hi, GriswaldTerrastone. I've lived in California since 1998 - in my current town of Redwood City since 2000.

(1) As Ghostmaker said, shoplifting is generally a misdemeanor like assault or trespassing. As far as I know, it's true in nearly all states that shoplifting under X amount is a misdemeanor. (2) I'm sure that somewhere in the state there is human feces on the street, but I don't see it. I think I saw some once when I went past a vacant lot seven years ago. (3) I don't have up-to-date data, but I'm pretty sure that is completely wrong. In Sep 2020, the stats I saw were:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/opinions/small-business-closures.png)
Source: https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/business-closures-update-sep-2020

So that's 19 closed out of 1000 or 1.9%, which is significantly higher than the 11 closed out of 1000 in Texas, say, but that's a lot different than 50%. That was last year. There has been recovery in the spring of 2021, though we are now facing trouble again. Yelp had an summer 2021 update (https://www.yelpeconomicaverage.com/june-economic-recovery-report.html) that included some general other stats like increased consumer interest but didn't update the closure numbers. I've seen a few retail closures in my area, but it seems roughly like the 2% from the report.

In general, I like California but it's certainly a mixed bag. It has great natural beauty and a creative culture, but the housing prices are ridiculous. It's roughly average in the nation for crime stats, mediocre at best in K-12 education though the UC system is quite good.
And why are housing prices ridiculous?

There is a really simple reason for this, let’s see if you’ll acknowledge it.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 28, 2021, 09:57:18 AM
Greetings!

Ahh, yes. And just think about the *hordes* of illegal immigrants pouring into the country all along the southern border. Each and every fucking day! But the goddamned Democrats LOVE IT! They love their policy of giving out money, health care, housing, and even VOTING rights to illegal immigrants.

Just let them pour in by the fucking millions!

That is going to ass-fuck this country in so many ways. But the good, sweet, Democrats don't give a fuck. Live in your shit-hole cities and choke on all that wonderful, vibrant duhversatay!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Which shit hole cities are those, Shark? Be specific. Cities in Texas, for example? Nevada? Florida? Georgia? Arizona? Tell how these immigrants from Mexico, central and south America are only in "Democrat" territories. This should be good.

Greetings!

Cities throughout Texas, Arizona, and California, in particular, Mistwell. Huge expenses involved with the hordes of illegal immigrants. Ever been to an emergency room at midnight in Santa Ana, Orange County? FULL of illegal immigrants. Huge numbers of criminals in US prisons--are illegal immigrants.

Haven't you seen the videos and interviews along the southern border? ICE officials have said it is an absolute disaster, with hordes of illegal immigrants pouring into the country, every day. Gun battles with US farmers and ranchers being attacked by illegal immigrants.

And meanwhile, Liberal Democrat politicians want to hand out all kinds of goodies to illegal immigrants.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Here are the top ten states, in order, for illegal immigration by percentage of population: Nevada, Texas, California, New Jersey, Maryland, Arizona, Georgia, Florida, Massachusetts, New York. Now to me four of those ten are Republican leaning states (Texas, Arizona, Georgia, Florida), one leans slightly Republican (Nevada), and the rest lean Democratic.

Here are the top ten states with highest population of K-12 students with illegal immigrant parents, in order: Nevada, Texas, California, Arizona, Colorado, Nebraska, Washington, North Carolina, New Jersey, Georgia. Now to me half of those are Republican leaning (Texas Arizona, Nebraska, North Carolina), one leans slightly Republican (Nevada), one leans slightly Democratic (Colorado), and three lean Democratic (California, Washington and New Jersey).

Strangely, the top ten states where illegal immigration makes up the largest percentage of total immigrants in those states are almost all Republican leaning: Nebraska, Arkansas, North Carolina, Utah, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Idaho, Georgia, Louisiana, Nevada.

This hardly seems like a picture of "Shit hole Democrat" cities. It's actually an issue spread roughly evenly over the full spectrum of states based on partisanship.

  Plenty of VERY blue cities in very red states.  I am not sure what you are trying to prove with this.  States have about ZERO say about illegal immigration, the feds have no interest in enforcing anything, and the reality is if you think you can look at a piece of paper and have an actual accurate number of illegals in the country, you are misled.   The issue is never going to be solved, because it ONLY impacts (negatively) American workers (immigrants or otherwise), and honestly illegal immigrants.  It benefits big business, it benefits politicians, it benefits government programs that thrive off of payroll taxes.   
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Trond on August 29, 2021, 09:57:43 AM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 29, 2021, 10:30:55 AM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 30, 2021, 08:27:28 AM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 30, 2021, 10:01:15 AM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 30, 2021, 03:49:03 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 30, 2021, 04:39:28 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 05:03:11 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 30, 2021, 05:13:27 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I am a moderate. Being a moderate relative to someone who is pretty hard right is a great distance. However you should know I am currently having this identical conversation with someone who is on the hard left (on a sports message board), who constantly calls me an alt-righter and a fascist right-winger. He views me that way for the same reason many here view me as a SJW left-winger. The distance between my moderate views and his hard left views is as far as the distance between someone like yourself and me.

Ultimately this is sort of tribalism. I don't fit well with either tribe, so both tribes think I must belong to the other one.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 30, 2021, 05:14:55 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   I do not know that I rate as conservative (well at least till maybe around 2015 and it sort of became a binary thing), but I certainly buy that mistwell is what he says he is, a neocon.  I can honestly say alot of neocon track record is pretty shitty on policies and my world view, I do think that is what he is.   It actually makes sense, lots of neocons hated trump quite a bit, and I never see him getting behind what I would call flagrant SJW point of views, boomer - ish for sure, but I would not say what I see leftists pushing these days.  I think he just likes a dust up, contrarian or verbally combative is likely his nature and I think he probably gets a bit of a jump start engaging in it (no sin in that, forums are full of people, like me, who enjoy those sorts of interactions).
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 30, 2021, 05:19:25 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   I do not know that I rate as conservative (well at least till maybe around 2015 and it sort of became a binary thing), but I certainly buy that mistwell is what he says he is, a neocon.  I can honestly say alot of neocon track record is pretty shitty on policies and my world view, I do think that is what he is.   It actually makes sense, lots of neocons hated trump quite a bit, and I never see him getting behind what I would call flagrant SJW point of views, boomer - ish for sure, but I would not say what I see leftists pushing these days.  I think he just likes a dust up, contrarian or verbally combative is likely his nature and I think he probably gets a bit of a jump start engaging in it (no sin in that, forums are full of people, like me, who enjoy those sorts of interactions).

Yes I think that's a fair assessment. Except boomer-ish. I am firmly Gen-X. I'd prove it to you, but I am way too lazy and care too little to do that...which should be proof enough I am Gen-X.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 30, 2021, 05:21:57 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

   I do not know that I rate as conservative (well at least till maybe around 2015 and it sort of became a binary thing), but I certainly buy that mistwell is what he says he is, a neocon.  I can honestly say alot of neocon track record is pretty shitty on policies and my world view, I do think that is what he is.   It actually makes sense, lots of neocons hated trump quite a bit, and I never see him getting behind what I would call flagrant SJW point of views, boomer - ish for sure, but I would not say what I see leftists pushing these days.  I think he just likes a dust up, contrarian or verbally combative is likely his nature and I think he probably gets a bit of a jump start engaging in it (no sin in that, forums are full of people, like me, who enjoy those sorts of interactions).

Yes I think that's a fair assessment. Except boomer-ish. I am firmly Gen-X. I'd prove it to you, but I am way too lazy and care too little to do that...which should be proof enough I am Gen-X.
  I believe you are Gen-X.  I said point of views can be a touch boomer-ish.  But that is subjective.  Lots of gen-x'ers trend boomer-ish in world view.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 30, 2021, 05:33:25 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's because he's not conservative. Nor is he moderate. He's just another leftist creep.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 05:57:34 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That's because he's not conservative. Nor is he moderate. He's just another leftist creep.

Greetings!

For some reason, I have always thought of self-professing "Moderates" as being stand-ins for Grima Wormtongue. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:30:55 PM
The strange part about Democrats and the Left allowing in a flood of illegals is this: Mexicans overall hate American blacks, and in some places have pretty much displaced them.

So you have the Left, on the one hand supporting the rioting and looting of BLM, while on the other in effect importing a proxy racist army.


And therein lies the endless contradiction, the Golem running amok: ever since the 1990's, and this I remember all too well, it was made clear that only whites can be racist. Therefore no matter what an illegal from Mexico does or says to blacks he, being a brown person, cannot possibly be racist.

I swear- if space aliens came down and removed all straight white men the entire Left would consume itself in a way that would make post-Soviet Yugoslavia look like a May pole dance.

Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 30, 2021, 06:39:46 PM
The strange part about Democrats and the Left allowing in a flood of illegals is this: Mexicans overall hate American blacks, and in some places have pretty much displaced them.

So you have the Left, on the one hand supporting the rioting and looting of BLM, while on the other in effect importing a proxy racist army.


And therein lies the endless contradiction, the Golem running amok: ever since the 1990's, and this I remember all too well, it was made clear that only whites can be racist. Therefore no matter what an illegal from Mexico does or says to blacks he, being a brown person, cannot possibly be racist.

I swear- if space aliens came down and removed all straight white men the entire Left would consume itself in a way that would make post-Soviet Yugoslavia look like a May pole dance.

   I do not know if I can say overall, and not so certain as to how we could see if that is true, but... I did hear some very strong points of view from the crew of guys I worked with (all 14 were from Mexico), and honestly I think a Klan rally might have sounded more open minded.   I have also heard some very strong opinions from black men I know, and have worked with.  So not so sure if there is an animosity on a large scale, or I just ran into examples of both groups who felt at odds with the others.   Maybe it is just white supremacy?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 30, 2021, 06:49:24 PM
You have to remember that whites are the only group not allowed to have a preference for its own. You know, like everyone else does. Just an hour ago on the front page of a local paper was a BIG article about how young black medical students MUST have black mentors.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 30, 2021, 06:51:59 PM
Fun fact.  Trump received more votes from California than any other state.  He received more than 6 million votes from Californians, more than from either Texas or Florida (or any other state, really).

I try to tell people that California has a lot of Republicans and Independents but it's always met with more stereotypes about California. Because "California: The Left Coast" makes for good clickbait.

Yes, I can confirm that there are a lot more conservatives here than most outsiders think. Just go on a little trip to the countryside and suddenly people’s attitudes are completely different. But what matters is proportion, you know? LA is an enormous city with a huge liberal population. Add a few more left leaning cities and you have a state with a big liberal majority. By the way, I’m not sure if others can confirm but I think the contrast is even starker in Oregon; as in a few hyper-liberal cities but otherwise a large conservative population in the countryside.

  I think that is called "The Tyranny of the Majority"
More like 'the tyranny of worthless vermin who've made sure they can cheatsy-doodle their way out of any consequence'.

The word is out that the printing machines will be going 'brrr' to keep Elder from taking Newsom's chair.

Oh "the word." Well that's settled then. Also, "tyranny of the worthless vermin majority" but apparently not a majority since they'd have to cheat to win the election? It's like you're not even trying any more.
Nobody cares what you think. Go make some more excuses for the junta.

LOL I am voting in favor recall, gathered some signatures for it, and I'm gathering signatures for the recall of our shitty District Attorney as well. But those facts don't work well with your narrative so you go on thinking I am some SJW leftie or whatever.

Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That says more about the majority of posters here than it does about him.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 06:58:09 PM
You have to remember that whites are the only group not allowed to have a preference for its own. You know, like everyone else does. Just an hour ago on the front page of a local paper was a BIG article about how young black medical students MUST have black mentors.

Greetings!

Yeah, all of that is Marxist bullshit. And mindless racism. Black, Black, Black. Anything blacks want or think is good. White peopleor anyone else can't want the same things. That's white supreme pizza! Fucking bullshit. Blacks can talk all about "I think you should only date your own race"--they are stunning, brave, and proud. A white person saying the same thing, OH MY GOD! WAYCISMSSSS!

Minorities can now have Minority-only graduation ceremonies, dormitories, and programs. Whites, of course, must get on their knees and swallow fucking diversity! GULP IT THE FUCK DOWN!

The fucking hypocrisy, racism and hatred of these Liberal, Marxists fucktards is infuriating.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:24:17 PM
Greetings!

Mistwell, don't you find it funny or strange how no Conservative member here believes that you are actually Conservative? You often protest that you are not an SJW or a Leftist--but there are few people here that would agree with such an assessment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
That says more about the majority of posters here than it does about him.
This is another one of those times we can act shocked that we agree.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 30, 2021, 07:29:06 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Pat on August 30, 2021, 07:37:18 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Shasarak on August 30, 2021, 09:10:40 PM
You have to remember that whites are the only group not allowed to have a preference for its own. You know, like everyone else does. Just an hour ago on the front page of a local paper was a BIG article about how young black medical students MUST have black mentors.

Who else would be able to speak jive to them?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2021, 09:57:12 PM
You have to remember that whites are the only group not allowed to have a preference for its own. You know, like everyone else does. Just an hour ago on the front page of a local paper was a BIG article about how young black medical students MUST have black mentors.

Who else would be able to speak jive to them?
Barbara Billingsly?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 30, 2021, 10:37:53 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Pat on August 30, 2021, 10:47:49 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 9s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. It's not me who moved their views here.
Didn't say you did. Evidence suggests people typically don't change their views as they age. But among the small group who do, they tend to become more conservative by about a 3:1 margin.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889

What's happened here is a new wave emerged. Though I'm wondering if the 3:1 ratio may have flipped, because the growth in extremism in the last decade isn't just millennials and zoomers growing up. A lot of older, well-established leftists seem to have shifted far to the left to join them.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 31, 2021, 07:02:40 AM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: SHARK on August 31, 2021, 08:34:14 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, Romney, McCain, the Bushes--all do-nothing neo-con politicians more interested in having dinner with Deomocrats and sucking bipartisan Marxist cock than actually getting anything done, or digging in and doing real fighting. Most of their ilk is preoccupied with "Losing Gracefully" instead of fucking winning. Lots of empty promises, lots of circle-jerking, but somehow, nothing ever meaningful gets accomplished by them. Yeah, they are all Globalist cock-sucking politicians. There are good reasons why the PEOPLE have rejected them and their bullshit messaging. All of them--have been entirely mediocre--at best, in regards to championing actual Conservative values.

The weak fucking "Republican" Party needs to get rid of every fucking one of the cock-sucking Globalist Neo-cons. Noone gives a fuck about the suit-and-tie wearing polite Republican party that is content to "Lose Gracefully". The new Republican party needs to be strong and bold, and fiercely loyal to Conservative values. Otherwise, they are just another flavour of luke-warm fucking Marxist Liberals--and they will continue to get buried in any election. The PEOPLE are not interested in supporting weak, cock-sucking, Globalist bureaucrats.

The PEOPLE want leaders of strength, passion, and real convictions.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 09:59:08 AM
Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, Romney, McCain, the Bushes--all do-nothing neo-con politicians more interested in having dinner with Deomocrats and sucking bipartisan Marxist cock than actually getting anything done, or digging in and doing real fighting. Most of their ilk is preoccupied with "Losing Gracefully" instead of fucking winning. Lots of empty promises, lots of circle-jerking, but somehow, nothing ever meaningful gets accomplished by them. Yeah, they are all Globalist cock-sucking politicians. There are good reasons why the PEOPLE have rejected them and their bullshit messaging. All of them--have been entirely mediocre--at best, in regards to championing actual Conservative values.

The weak fucking "Republican" Party needs to get rid of every fucking one of the cock-sucking Globalist Neo-cons. Noone gives a fuck about the suit-and-tie wearing polite Republican party that is content to "Lose Gracefully". The new Republican party needs to be strong and bold, and fiercely loyal to Conservative values. Otherwise, they are just another flavour of luke-warm fucking Marxist Liberals--and they will continue to get buried in any election. The PEOPLE are not interested in supporting weak, cock-sucking, Globalist bureaucrats.

The PEOPLE want leaders of strength, passion, and real convictions.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Thank goodness that SHARK doesn't actually speak for the people, because his all-or-nothing, pick-your-team (and the other team is The Enemy) beliefs are the kind of fanaticism that all reasonable people should oppose (and pity).
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: KingCheops on August 31, 2021, 11:30:58 AM
I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?

We need to politically enforce Christian (preferably Catholic) virtues on society, we need to bring back the House Unamerican Activities Committee to stamp out communism, and we should at a bare minimum derecognize islam as a religion (it's a totalitarian political ideology not a religion) but escalate to banning any immigration of mudslimes and seriously consider shipping ours to the desert in one of those shitholes (I say let them keep their side/long arms so they can proceed to slaughter each other as they always do).

Does that float your boat?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 31, 2021, 01:24:04 PM
Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, Romney, McCain, the Bushes--all do-nothing neo-con politicians more interested in having dinner with Deomocrats and sucking bipartisan Marxist cock than actually getting anything done, or digging in and doing real fighting. Most of their ilk is preoccupied with "Losing Gracefully" instead of fucking winning. Lots of empty promises, lots of circle-jerking, but somehow, nothing ever meaningful gets accomplished by them. Yeah, they are all Globalist cock-sucking politicians. There are good reasons why the PEOPLE have rejected them and their bullshit messaging. All of them--have been entirely mediocre--at best, in regards to championing actual Conservative values.

The weak fucking "Republican" Party needs to get rid of every fucking one of the cock-sucking Globalist Neo-cons. Noone gives a fuck about the suit-and-tie wearing polite Republican party that is content to "Lose Gracefully". The new Republican party needs to be strong and bold, and fiercely loyal to Conservative values. Otherwise, they are just another flavour of luke-warm fucking Marxist Liberals--and they will continue to get buried in any election. The PEOPLE are not interested in supporting weak, cock-sucking, Globalist bureaucrats.

The PEOPLE want leaders of strength, passion, and real convictions.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Thank goodness that SHARK doesn't actually speak for the people, because his all-or-nothing, pick-your-team (and the other team is The Enemy) beliefs are the kind of fanaticism that all reasonable people should oppose (and pity).
Yeah, it's so much more convenient to surrender when the going gets tough.

But we'll leave that to you.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 01:56:45 PM
Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, Romney, McCain, the Bushes--all do-nothing neo-con politicians more interested in having dinner with Deomocrats and sucking bipartisan Marxist cock than actually getting anything done, or digging in and doing real fighting. Most of their ilk is preoccupied with "Losing Gracefully" instead of fucking winning. Lots of empty promises, lots of circle-jerking, but somehow, nothing ever meaningful gets accomplished by them. Yeah, they are all Globalist cock-sucking politicians. There are good reasons why the PEOPLE have rejected them and their bullshit messaging. All of them--have been entirely mediocre--at best, in regards to championing actual Conservative values.

The weak fucking "Republican" Party needs to get rid of every fucking one of the cock-sucking Globalist Neo-cons. Noone gives a fuck about the suit-and-tie wearing polite Republican party that is content to "Lose Gracefully". The new Republican party needs to be strong and bold, and fiercely loyal to Conservative values. Otherwise, they are just another flavour of luke-warm fucking Marxist Liberals--and they will continue to get buried in any election. The PEOPLE are not interested in supporting weak, cock-sucking, Globalist bureaucrats.

The PEOPLE want leaders of strength, passion, and real convictions.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Thank goodness that SHARK doesn't actually speak for the people, because his all-or-nothing, pick-your-team (and the other team is The Enemy) beliefs are the kind of fanaticism that all reasonable people should oppose (and pity).
Yeah, it's so much more convenient to surrender when the going gets tough.

But we'll leave that to you.
What is your definition of surrender?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 31, 2021, 02:50:05 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 9s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. It's not me who moved their views here.
Didn't say you did. Evidence suggests people typically don't change their views as they age. But among the small group who do, they tend to become more conservative by about a 3:1 margin.
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/706889

What's happened here is a new wave emerged. Though I'm wondering if the 3:1 ratio may have flipped, because the growth in extremism in the last decade isn't just millennials and zoomers growing up. A lot of older, well-established leftists seem to have shifted far to the left to join them.

I agree entirely. A lot of my friends who used to be ordinary Democrats are now "progressives" and far more authoritarian than they used to be.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 31, 2021, 02:54:46 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.

I am one of the people still running a manufacturing business here in the U.S. and I can say with 100% certainty Trumps trade war harmed my business directly and forced me to downsize my business and hire fewer U.S. employees. If the intended effect was to protect our factories and U.S. workers, it had the opposite effect on my business. I can back that up with as many specifics and numbers as you'd like, though it's pretty boring.

And I am not asking Trump supporters to line up with Neocon views. I am saying Neocon views WERE conservative views in the 90s and those views you called "populist" were the blue collar Democratic views in the 90s. It ain't me who flipped their political views. Calling me a "SJW liberal" because I still support the same views as every modern nominee to the Presidency from the Republican party prior to Trump is bullshit. As you say, it's Trump who changed to a populist platform. HE was the change to what "conservative" means, not me. How am I being called a traitor to conservatism when Trump adopted Democratic views and called it "conservatism"?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 31, 2021, 04:56:54 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.

I am one of the people still running a manufacturing business here in the U.S. and I can say with 100% certainty Trumps trade war harmed my business directly and forced me to downsize my business and hire fewer U.S. employees. If the intended effect was to protect our factories and U.S. workers, it had the opposite effect on my business. I can back that up with as many specifics and numbers as you'd like, though it's pretty boring.

And I am not asking Trump supporters to line up with Neocon views. I am saying Neocon views WERE conservative views in the 90s and those views you called "populist" were the blue collar Democratic views in the 90s. It ain't me who flipped their political views. Calling me a "SJW liberal" because I still support the same views as every modern nominee to the Presidency from the Republican party prior to Trump is bullshit. As you say, it's Trump who changed to a populist platform. HE was the change to what "conservative" means, not me. How am I being called a traitor to conservatism when Trump adopted Democratic views and called it "conservatism"?

  Also, I dont remember calling trump conservative...I also didnt call you anything.   As for running your manufacturing business, that is a position caused by the nation being sold off to china in many ways by those neocons, most manufacturing had long since left, sounds like you made it through it ok after firing a few people.  Best to fire end of day on Friday to prevent outbursts.

   What do you manufacture?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Shasarak on August 31, 2021, 05:03:38 PM
Thank goodness that SHARK doesn't actually speak for the people, because his all-or-nothing, pick-your-team (and the other team is The Enemy) beliefs are the kind of fanaticism that all reasonable people should oppose (and pity).

Fortunately no need to worry about any reasonable people ever finding out.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 31, 2021, 05:12:34 PM
Thank goodness that SHARK doesn't actually speak for the people, because his all-or-nothing, pick-your-team (and the other team is The Enemy) beliefs are the kind of fanaticism that all reasonable people should oppose (and pity).

Fortunately no need to worry about any reasonable people ever finding out.
Not around here.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Mistwell on August 31, 2021, 05:46:37 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.

I am one of the people still running a manufacturing business here in the U.S. and I can say with 100% certainty Trumps trade war harmed my business directly and forced me to downsize my business and hire fewer U.S. employees. If the intended effect was to protect our factories and U.S. workers, it had the opposite effect on my business. I can back that up with as many specifics and numbers as you'd like, though it's pretty boring.

And I am not asking Trump supporters to line up with Neocon views. I am saying Neocon views WERE conservative views in the 90s and those views you called "populist" were the blue collar Democratic views in the 90s. It ain't me who flipped their political views. Calling me a "SJW liberal" because I still support the same views as every modern nominee to the Presidency from the Republican party prior to Trump is bullshit. As you say, it's Trump who changed to a populist platform. HE was the change to what "conservative" means, not me. How am I being called a traitor to conservatism when Trump adopted Democratic views and called it "conservatism"?

  Also, I dont remember calling trump conservative...I also didnt call you anything.   As for running your manufacturing business, that is a position caused by the nation being sold off to china in many ways by those neocons, most manufacturing had long since left, sounds like you made it through it ok after firing a few people.  Best to fire end of day on Friday to prevent outbursts.

   What do you manufacture?

Mostly graduation caps and gowns. We import the inexpensive stuff which is used one time, and manufacture the custom stuff used by people who get advanced degrees (and judges robes and some similar higher end stuff). We basically have a balanced company which sells about 50% imported inexpensive goods and 50% American-made more expensive custom goods. Taxing our company for importing hurt us - and it's not like we can make those things here because all our competitors also import and price their goods accordingly. American workers don't want to make crappy cheap simple gowns day after day on an assembly line so it's not like China "stole" that manufacturing but rather our own labor pool is more skilled than that and isn't interested in those jobs. At best if we wanted to make them here we'd use robotics and not people. Anyone with sewing skills is qualified to make more advanced things than that.

If Trump wanted to benefit manufacturing, what he should have done is offer zero interest equipment loans secured by the equipment for robotics purchased from American companies who make those robotics in the U.S.. He didn't do that - all he did was tax small businesses and act like that would magically solve the issues. Which of course it didn't.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: oggsmash on August 31, 2021, 05:57:13 PM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.

I am one of the people still running a manufacturing business here in the U.S. and I can say with 100% certainty Trumps trade war harmed my business directly and forced me to downsize my business and hire fewer U.S. employees. If the intended effect was to protect our factories and U.S. workers, it had the opposite effect on my business. I can back that up with as many specifics and numbers as you'd like, though it's pretty boring.

And I am not asking Trump supporters to line up with Neocon views. I am saying Neocon views WERE conservative views in the 90s and those views you called "populist" were the blue collar Democratic views in the 90s. It ain't me who flipped their political views. Calling me a "SJW liberal" because I still support the same views as every modern nominee to the Presidency from the Republican party prior to Trump is bullshit. As you say, it's Trump who changed to a populist platform. HE was the change to what "conservative" means, not me. How am I being called a traitor to conservatism when Trump adopted Democratic views and called it "conservatism"?

  Also, I dont remember calling trump conservative...I also didnt call you anything.   As for running your manufacturing business, that is a position caused by the nation being sold off to china in many ways by those neocons, most manufacturing had long since left, sounds like you made it through it ok after firing a few people.  Best to fire end of day on Friday to prevent outbursts.

   What do you manufacture?

Mostly graduation caps and gowns. We import the inexpensive stuff which is used one time, and manufacture the custom stuff used by people who get advanced degrees (and judges robes and some similar higher end stuff). We basically have a balanced company which sells about 50% imported inexpensive goods and 50% American-made more expensive custom goods. Taxing our company for importing hurt us - and it's not like we can make those things here because all our competitors also import and price their goods accordingly. American workers don't want to make crappy cheap simple gowns day after day on an assembly line so it's not like China "stole" that manufacturing but rather our own labor pool is more skilled than that and isn't interested in those jobs. At best if we wanted to make them here we'd use robotics and not people. Anyone with sewing skills is qualified to make more advanced things than that.

If Trump wanted to benefit manufacturing, what he should have done is offer zero interest equipment loans secured by the equipment for robotics purchased from American companies who make those robotics in the U.S.. He didn't do that - all he did was tax small businesses and act like that would magically solve the issues. Which of course it didn't.

   Oh China stole it, they just took it a looong time before you were interested in the business.  Textiles had a hammer taken to it a long time ago.  I also do not think there is anything Trump could have done, or ANY politician ever could do to bring manufacturing back.   Those "crappy jobs" used to pay people's mortgages.  Globalizing labor, and allowing a constant, never ending flow of cheap labor into the country beat the brakes off those crappy job wages.   

  I said I can understand how the song Trump sang would appeal to people who saw their parents have a factory shut down thanks to allowing the labor market to be globalized (aka allowing American workers to compete with slaves for jobs).   I do agree manufacturing here should begin anew, and the focus being on robots making things (this is a huge national security issue).  But if robots are going to do all the "crappy jobs" why do we keep allowing people into the country to do "jobs americans dont want to do" (aka jobs where the labor rates are beaten into the ground) what to we do with all the people when robots are "doing all the jobs americans dont want to do"?

  We back to #learntocode and #gotolawschool?
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on August 31, 2021, 09:52:57 PM
With left and right remember that overall the Cthulhu of the left keeps swimming to the left. Therefore a mild liberal years ago is now a conservative. The old "Star Trek" is a good example of this- it is now considered politically incorrect.
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: Bunch on September 01, 2021, 01:23:47 AM
  I do not see all that much that looks "far right" either.  I do see some political bickering where people who disagree about something end up being the enemy camp, but I also see some trolling and fishing about for an argument or two, so I am not sure it is a case of moderate looking far away from far right, or someone just calling who ever they disagree with the person they disagree with the most.   I guess I should ask, what is a far right stance?   I remember LOTS of centrist bipartisan stances from around the 90's that are called far right all the time now.  So it gets pretty hard to keep up.
Most of the people on the board seem to be strongly leftist on social issues. At least by 90s standards.

A lot of the differences seem pretty artificial. It's tribalism, rather than substantive differences. That's why two branches of a neoliberal/neocon monoparty, who agreed on 99.99% of all things, and only disagreed on a few social hot-button issues, managed to become more and more polarized.

Of course that's complicated by another factor, the rise of real extremism in one of the factions, and its tacit and even active acceptance by the bulk of the leadership.

We're in a world where the differences used to be mostly token, but a good chunk of the world seems to have gone crazy, and a new alignment hasn't emerged. That's why it's all so confusing, because it's fluctuating wildly and nobody knows what will stick.

I support a lot of neocon views. That was very firmly considered conservative in the 90s, and these days it gets me called a traitor to the Republican party to view the world like Dole, Bush Sr., Bush Jr., McCain, and Romney...all of whom I voted for and who won Republican primaries for the Presidency. I also voted for John Kasich in 2016 for the Republican party, who also was considered firmly conservative in the 90s.

It's not me who moved their views here. Trump supporters calling for protectionism and trade wars and taxes on businesses that import goods, who are against a strong military and the use of force to check terrorism and communism in the world, and who are against immigration which supports businesses and labor, that's all new to the Republican party. Those are all positions supported by unions in the 90s and prior to that. Those in fact are all views supported by Joe Biden and John Edwards and the Kennedys and such in the 90s and prior.

   Well I can say I understand 100 percent how people would decide exporting our jobs (and subsidizing the nations taking them with government money) and shutting down factories might want a bit of "protectionism".  I guess we can just tell them all #learntocode and #gotolawschool.  Not to mention how weak it makes a nation to have no infrastructure capable of large scale manufacturing.   I have a feeling if you were also one of the people actually having to carry out the force against all that terrorism and communism you might shift opinion on how much of that is really needed, since neocons just want to nation build and make their pals some money (and Biden voted to do the same).   It is super easy to support force when there is zero chance you ever bleed from the decision.

   Trump people are as much populist as anything, so I can certainly see where they would not line up with neocon point of views.

I am one of the people still running a manufacturing business here in the U.S. and I can say with 100% certainty Trumps trade war harmed my business directly and forced me to downsize my business and hire fewer U.S. employees. If the intended effect was to protect our factories and U.S. workers, it had the opposite effect on my business. I can back that up with as many specifics and numbers as you'd like, though it's pretty boring.

And I am not asking Trump supporters to line up with Neocon views. I am saying Neocon views WERE conservative views in the 90s and those views you called "populist" were the blue collar Democratic views in the 90s. It ain't me who flipped their political views. Calling me a "SJW liberal" because I still support the same views as every modern nominee to the Presidency from the Republican party prior to Trump is bullshit. As you say, it's Trump who changed to a populist platform. HE was the change to what "conservative" means, not me. How am I being called a traitor to conservatism when Trump adopted Democratic views and called it "conservatism"?

  Also, I dont remember calling trump conservative...I also didnt call you anything.   As for running your manufacturing business, that is a position caused by the nation being sold off to china in many ways by those neocons, most manufacturing had long since left, sounds like you made it through it ok after firing a few people.  Best to fire end of day on Friday to prevent outbursts.

   What do you manufacture?

Mostly graduation caps and gowns. We import the inexpensive stuff which is used one time, and manufacture the custom stuff used by people who get advanced degrees (and judges robes and some similar higher end stuff). We basically have a balanced company which sells about 50% imported inexpensive goods and 50% American-made more expensive custom goods. Taxing our company for importing hurt us - and it's not like we can make those things here because all our competitors also import and price their goods accordingly. American workers don't want to make crappy cheap simple gowns day after day on an assembly line so it's not like China "stole" that manufacturing but rather our own labor pool is more skilled than that and isn't interested in those jobs. At best if we wanted to make them here we'd use robotics and not people. Anyone with sewing skills is qualified to make more advanced things than that.

If Trump wanted to benefit manufacturing, what he should have done is offer zero interest equipment loans secured by the equipment for robotics purchased from American companies who make those robotics in the U.S.. He didn't do that - all he did was tax small businesses and act like that would magically solve the issues. Which of course it didn't.
I'm with you.  Somehow the party I supported for four decades flew off into lala land and the only thing I can see saving it from total irrelevance is it's competition said "You think that's crazy? Hold my beer!". I won't be surprised if a moderate independent or hell even Romney ran as a third party candidate and did so surprisingly better than expected it pulled the other two parties off the brink.  But I won't hold my breath. 
Title: Re: Any Californians here?
Post by: RPGPundit on September 01, 2021, 09:56:40 AM
This is of no interest to me.