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Author Topic: "Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies  (Read 3758 times)

RPGPundit

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2014, 10:38:56 AM »
Quote from: tenbones;796503
just as Americanized Buddhism is growing, it will accrue it's own pathological pile of bullshit just like other cultural expressions of Buddhism have in Asia... it will still come down to individuals figuring it out for themselves.


I'm a big fan of people figuring things out for themselves; but if your conclusion is "I can do it all by myself, with the power of my own mind" (or "mindfulness" if you prefer to use an American Buddhist Weasel Word), then you're deluding yourself.

One of the big points in the Dharma is that "You can't get there from here", the "here" being your own head, your own perspective, your own conditionings.  There MUST be an outside Spiritual Crisis.    That means things like initiations, and gurus, and surrender, and devotion. If at least some of those things aren't happening, if you aren't having outside forces that drag you (usually kicking and screaming) outside of your own box, you're just going to be going around in circles in there thinking you're making awesome progress.
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tenbones

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2014, 03:07:20 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;796722
I'm a big fan of people figuring things out for themselves; but if your conclusion is "I can do it all by myself, with the power of my own mind" (or "mindfulness" if you prefer to use an American Buddhist Weasel Word), then you're deluding yourself.

That's not exactly what I'm saying, or meant to say. I'm saying - creating "movements" like a religion or whatever in order to mass-produce a "thing" will inevitably miss the finer, and in my experience - the essence of Buddhist practice.

By all means - Guru/Pandit/Teacher-to-student dynamic needs to exist. Because as history has shown us even in the Buddists Sutras themselves as well as the rather large summations of various traditions - the road is fraught with egoic peril that not only *can* - but *will* yank your ass off course.

My point is as an individual you can't, and shouldn't concern yourself with saving others before figuring out your own course. I'll address this a bit more below...

Quote from: RPGPundit;796722
One of the big points in the Dharma is that "You can't get there from here", the "here" being your own head, your own perspective, your own conditionings.  There MUST be an outside Spiritual Crisis.    That means things like initiations, and gurus, and surrender, and devotion. If at least some of those things aren't happening, if you aren't having outside forces that drag you (usually kicking and screaming) outside of your own box, you're just going to be going around in circles in there thinking you're making awesome progress.

...this is exactly right. But to the degree that one even realizes they're having a "Spiritual Crisis" - requires the individual to make the necessary movements to address them. <---this is what I'm referring to by the individual agency.

Everything after that - we are in agreement with.

I'm more interested in that moment of the small but significant realization that the vast majority (my bullshit statistic) of Americans don't 1) understand what Spiritual even means or is 2) don't understand that the very suffering they project outward and inward is by Buddhist conception the very ground of the definition of what reality IS - Life is Suffering. And *You* are the primary cause of it.

What you're referring to is what comes *after* the first conscious observation of the Four Noble Truths - heh most westerners don't even get *that* far. That starts with each person. Not with movements. If that weren't the case, I'd argue there would be a lot more Buddhists.

After all - you have Baptists declaring things like Yoga and Meditation to be insidious attempts to introduce "spiritually dangerous" pagan practices to American culture. This is the type of mass-herd mentality that Buddhism can likewise induce, and has done so, and will continue to do so as long as there shall be people who profess to teach without themselves succumbing to their own base bullshit.

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2014, 09:59:45 PM »
Westerners are not going to grasp any eastern religion intuitively, unless it is part of your cultural background (i.e. your ethnicity can be hyphenated with a region of the world from which the religion originated).

Yoga in the west is simply exercise, nothing more special than running on a treadmill from a religious perspective. Meditation (at least in the west) is kind of like a cognitive behavioral thing. Studies have shown it can help with anxiety and reduce stress. But there's nothing inherently "spiritual" about it.

Like it or not, an honest religious seeker in the west basically has two choices: monotheism and/or a rationalist approach. If you want to pursue anything else, you practically need to be a scholar. You have to learn the culture first, then study the religion in its proper context, or it's not going to make any sense. 99.99% of Americans are not up to this challenge. For all the problems with Christianity, I have tons more respect for your average Christian than I do for any New Age poser.

tenbones

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2014, 05:31:42 PM »
Quote from: ningauble;796937
Westerners are not going to grasp any eastern religion intuitively, unless it is part of your cultural background (i.e. your ethnicity can be hyphenated with a region of the world from which the religion originated).

Only because they're conditioned to. The benefit of contemplative practices happens to be de-conditioning.

Quote from: ningauble;796937
Yoga in the west is simply exercise, nothing more special than running on a treadmill from a religious perspective. Meditation (at least in the west) is kind of like a cognitive behavioral thing. Studies have shown it can help with anxiety and reduce stress. But there's nothing inherently "spiritual" about it.

There is nothing wrong with any of these things. Walking Meditation does require "walking". Is it spiritual to do Hot Yoga with a bunch of attractive women and men? Probably not. But if it gets you down the road and interested in seeking authentic contemplative practice - rock on, says I.

I think you're conflating the surface level view, of well, most people - in lieu of the fact that anything worthwhile requires work.

Quote from: ningauble;796937
Like it or not, an honest religious seeker in the west basically has two choices: monotheism and/or a rationalist approach. If you want to pursue anything else, you practically need to be a scholar. You have to learn the culture first, then study the religion in its proper context, or it's not going to make any sense. 99.99% of Americans are not up to this challenge. For all the problems with Christianity, I have tons more respect for your average Christian than I do for any New Age poser.

Disagree. An HONEST religious seeker has *infinite* choices, *because* if they're honest and they're seeking honestly, they'll know taking a dishonest approach will avail them of nothing.

You do not need to be a scholar to get started in Eastern meditative practices. You don't need to be anything. But at some point, if you get yourself going, you should seek out a teacher for the deeper aspects. Join a Sangha, etc. It most certainly is *not* rocket science. 99% of Americans should be 99% of PEOPLE - because even in the East there are asshats who don't understand their own culture or spiritual practices.

As for giving your respect to "your average Christian vs. New Age poser" - not sure what that really means. Average Christians are spiritual posers too.

Daztur

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2014, 09:56:44 AM »
Quote from: ningauble;796937
Westerners are not going to grasp any eastern religion intuitively, unless it is part of your cultural background (i.e. your ethnicity can be hyphenated with a region of the world from which the religion originated).


I think you're severely overestimating the ability of easterners to grasp eastern religion intuitively.

Malfi

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2014, 10:33:56 AM »
So I read Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, it is a great book and it certainly helped me. I feel I have a better experiential grasp of these stuff, especially of not "checking" one's self.
That said the further in the book I got the less sense the stuff writen made, also I was disappointed in the absolute statement that you need a guru or "spiritual friend" as the case may be.

Phillip
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« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2014, 12:46:57 PM »
The guru-disciple scheme as in Vajrayana can be a help or a hindrance. Wearing a funny hat or taking a fancy title does not magically eliminate the need for checks against self-deception such as community and tradition provide. Claims of immunity to criticism permit harm to fester.

Beyond a point, everyone 'needs' experienced guidance in the sense that it's wiser to learn from mistakes people have made in the past than to re-invent shooting yourself in the foot.

That certainly does not mean you can't make a good start on your own. Nor does it mean you need a teacher treated as a deity, or mandalas and mantras and mudras. The Buddha was not secretive or obscurantist, did not insist on Masonic ceremonial before pointing out the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Way. Esoteric elaborations suit some minds, a simple way of life others.

When you reach the point of need, it should be easy to tell, something one would have to be very stubborn to ignore. Proceed past that, and you are likely to accumulate misunderstandings that are harder to recognize as such, and get badly stuck.
And we are here as on a darkling plain  ~ Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, ~ Where ignorant armies clash by night.

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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2014, 07:05:48 AM »
That makes sense Phillip, thanks.

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2014, 01:57:02 AM »
The secret of the whole spiritual-teacher thing is that in and of itself, the guru does nothing. It is all about what the student does with/about the guru.

Or as it was once put: the reason there's so many fake teachers is that there's so many fake students.
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tenbones

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2014, 06:20:21 PM »
Quote from: Phillip;797461
When you reach the point of need, it should be easy to tell, something one would have to be very stubborn to ignore. Proceed past that, and you are likely to accumulate misunderstandings that are harder to recognize as such, and get badly stuck.


And hence the adage - when the student is ready, the teacher will come.

Phillip
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« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2014, 03:15:35 PM »
I recall Pema Chodron writing that to reach the stage of unconditional trust involved more than just getting to know her teacher; she also needed through practice to build enough trust in herself. She refers to "warrior training," which may make the point easy for some people to understand.
And we are here as on a darkling plain  ~ Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, ~ Where ignorant armies clash by night.

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2014, 12:28:42 AM »
Quote from: Phillip;799805
I recall Pema Chodron writing that to reach the stage of unconditional trust involved more than just getting to know her teacher; she also needed through practice to build enough trust in herself. She refers to "warrior training," which may make the point easy for some people to understand.


A good point, and considering who her guru was, she would certainly have been forged in the hottest fire.
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