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Author Topic: "Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies  (Read 3756 times)

Spinachcat

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2014, 09:37:06 PM »
I'm cool with the "New Ancient Buddhism".  

Every everything attracts its share of douchebags, but in general, the rising popularity of meditation in the US is a good thing. Even if that meditation is just "STFU and think nice thoughts" because current life in the US is 24/7 noise and stress, so anything that promotes quiet, calm and introspection is deeply needed in our speedfreak culture. Especially introspection because of our nation's penchant for mindless escapism into the screen to avoid thinking about anything.

Regardless of its lack of historical authenticity, New Age Meditation has introduced a couple generations to deep breathing and a respect for stillness which is increasingly lacking in our corporate slave lifestyle where there is not enough hours in the day to please all our real and illusionary masters.

tenbones

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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 10:54:14 AM »
Spinachat,

Yeah that's pretty much the sad part. There is a fundamental notion to Buddhism at its core that recognizes the sheer immensity of our self-deception that is our very identity (the things we actually identify with) - that makes modern living absolutely absurd. Which is completely opposite from Western faith that seeks to war with/reconcile itself against modernity (where it will/is failing). There are no injunctions given to Buddhism (and many other Eastern traditions) towards many of the big game changers of modernity - like science, pop-culture, historical revisionism, etc.

In practice there's a kind of interesting break-point where having a contemplative practice allows you to ignore a lot of the dumb shit we see being perpetrated by individuals, and even by whole societies. Because you learn to recognize the core of the flaw is the runaway egos all grasping for the same shit: Me Me Me Me Me Me Me/Us Us Us Us Us Us Us Us.

On a personal note, I found a big and interesting concept about 20 years ago - Ken Wilber's Integral Theory (which is based on a LOT of work by Jean Gebser and Don Beck's Spiral Dynamics concepts). Terribly fascinating, and scary at first when you put yourself in its context. But it puts a lot of things into a much needed framework - even if I don't agree with a few points from Ken Wilber (it's big proponent - whom I feel succumbs to his own bullshit at times, but don't we all?) The theory is worth looking into as a modern holistic approach to... well everything. And yeah that's a pretty fucking bold statement, but if you have any interest in digging a little deeper - I'd be happy to give you some references on where to start.

Edit: I should point out like all theories - Integral Theory has its critics and I love reading all/any criticism of it - because Integral Theory demands it should be scrutinized. But I have yet to see anything that deconstructs or even comes close to proving the concept unsound. Though I'd argue some of Wilber's points about how/where some of he navigates generalities are misplaced have been pointed out as "too big a leap" - the concept of Integral Theory is still solid imo.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:57:19 AM by tenbones »

Phillip
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 02:03:33 PM »
Hey, I'm going to master higher maths without a firm grounding in arithmetic! And be a kickass guitar player without practicing chords and scales!

NOT!

Satori-type experiences can mess up people big time if they don't have basic issues squared away.

The fundamentals that really wise people emphasize are the seemingly simple but really challenging things so often dismissed as "not religious"  because they're not peculiar to any sect, not esoteric at all. Everybody can see them, we're just lazy about practising them.

Anyone who claims to be "above" morality and modesty is fooling himself.

The intellectual fripperies and emotional ecstasies that win fame and fortune for  Deepak Chopra and ilk are valued as distractions from the hard work of real learning. Contemplation without basic discipline tends to be worse than ineffective.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 02:05:37 PM by Phillip »
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tenbones

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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2014, 03:39:17 PM »
Quote from: Phillip;792407
Satori-type experiences can mess up people big time if they don't have basic issues squared away.


Yep. They can really throw you off the path entirely due the, pardon the bullshit phrase, "egoic backlash". The idea being that when you go into contemplative practice with the expectation of something - that's your ego sabotaging you right there. The first indications of "kensho" - (and for parlance sake I'm using Zen terms as opposed to other Buddhist terms simply because they're what I'm used to) - that teeny moment where the ego is quelled... usually doesn't last long. But it's long enough for the returning ego to proclaim triumph over "ENLIGHTENMENT!" WOOO!!! I DID IT!!!... yeah... not really.

That's where the danger lies.

Quote from: Phillip;792407
The fundamentals that really wise people emphasize are the seemingly simple but really challenging things so often dismissed as "not religious"  because they're not peculiar to any sect, not esoteric at all. Everybody can see them, we're just lazy about practising them.

Anyone who claims to be "above" morality and modesty is fooling himself.


They're challenging because the default condition we live with is feeding our desires. It doesn't help most of us were raised in a crass consumer society hellbent on extolling our egos as the greatest thing EVAR!!!!

I think you hit on something important - the equivocation with morality/ethics with religion is a bad thing that many people do. Atheists toss out morality and ethics as associated with religion because of religion. Religious wingnuts make spurious claims about religion being the genesis of morality, when this is clearly not true to anyone with half a thought.

Ethics in particular is a social function that has evolved with us AS social animals. Of course it's easy to dismiss that if you're religious and don't believe in evolution. Yet, ethics and morality were well established before western theological traditions were ever in existence. That alone should be enough... but of course that hurts too many people's feelings.


Quote from: Phillip;792407
The intellectual fripperies and emotional ecstasies that win fame and fortune for  Deepak Chopra and ilk are valued as distractions from the hard work of real learning. Contemplation without basic discipline tends to be worse than ineffective.


"Basic Discipline" means shutting up. And sitting down. The rest will come. No one (in my experience) suddenly has kensho, much less a higher state like satori or nirvikalpa samadhi (okay I fibbed - not a strict Zen term) on one try. So yeah - you have to develop the discipline by doing the action of inaction.

Deepak and his "ilk" (I like using that word... it's so... dripping with condescending fun. For the record - I'm only kidding when I'm doing it)... are useful for getting people to just "try".

to the degree that anyone pursues it... is well... debatable. But if it gets someone to stop being an asshole - sure, go for it.

Phillip
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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2014, 04:15:30 PM »
By basic discipline, I do not mean "just sitting." A person can spend an indefinite number of hours superficially at that, and be not at all the better for it. Getting beyond the superficial calls for some preparation of the habits of  behavior, else bad habits impose themselves on what is purportedly shutting up and sitting down but actually turned into yet another way of getting bogged down in selfishness.

By the same token, some people rarely do the literal sitting-meditation routine, but are in the same essential place while walking and working. The Hindu list of various yogas reflects the fact that different minds are suited to different forms, just as helpful medicine for one body may be unhealthy for another.
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tenbones

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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2014, 04:55:05 PM »
Well again... I'm speaking purely from my own experiences in the practice. You can certainly meditate sitting down, walking, doing archery, sword-fighting, playing for the Chicago Bulls, etc.

I use "sitting down and shutting up" both as a euphemism and as a literal action. Because it's easy to do - that's the point. People like it easy, that's why they fall into "New Age" bullshit. Seems to be the lowest common point of entry for slugs with inertia.

But if people do Yogic Meditation Walking from the start? Rock on, says I. Go for it.

Phillip
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2014, 02:26:25 PM »
The main point I'm suggesting is that the everywhere-always practice of precepts is necessary to get the most out of the part-of-the-time practice of meditation.

Ego inflation is otherwise on the lesser end of the scale of dangers. It takes a fairly stable ego safely to see itself as an illusion.
And we are here as on a darkling plain  ~ Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight, ~ Where ignorant armies clash by night.

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"Ancient Buddhism": as Invented by Victorians and Ex-Hippies
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 12:05:43 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;792302
I'm cool with the "New Ancient Buddhism".  

Every everything attracts its share of douchebags, but in general, the rising popularity of meditation in the US is a good thing. Even if that meditation is just "STFU and think nice thoughts" because current life in the US is 24/7 noise and stress, so anything that promotes quiet, calm and introspection is deeply needed in our speedfreak culture. Especially introspection because of our nation's penchant for mindless escapism into the screen to avoid thinking about anything.

Regardless of its lack of historical authenticity, New Age Meditation has introduced a couple generations to deep breathing and a respect for stillness which is increasingly lacking in our corporate slave lifestyle where there is not enough hours in the day to please all our real and illusionary masters.


Which, in the best of cases, puts it into the Opiate Of the Masses category, in no way better than praying to the Baby Jesus or the Virgin Mary.

I would think that we can aim for better than that.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2014, 01:12:59 PM »
What? You mean the central tenet of Buddhism isn't " every man for himself?"

[couldn't resist the joke]:p
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« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2014, 05:10:03 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;793285
I would think that we can aim for better than that.


Maybe, but I see that taking generations.

I believe we need someone "Americanizing" the deeper levels of Buddhist thought for consumption by the public (yeah, I know that sounds horrible). And I don't mean "dumbing down", but presenting the thought in accessible terms for the modern American.

Or not. Maybe mainstream modern US culture is impenetrable to anything deeper than the basic precepts of any philosophy. It's not like our nation's Christianity is particularly deep. "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so" is the alpha and omega for many people. It's not like our modern public discourse on any topic shows much nuance or willingness by the mainstream to dig below the surface.

tenbones

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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2014, 06:01:50 PM »
the "good" thing about the "Americanizing" of Buddhism is doing away with a lot of the cultural baggage Buddhism has accumulated through its travels.

Getting down to the individual practice, in the vein of what Alan Watts (and other western and eastern teachers)tried to bring to the masses is all that is requires. The choice is the important part. The persistence of practice, the realization of individuals to their own presence in the practice (or lack thereof depending on ones perspective). There are no "oughts" - there is only the individual choice to DO and commit.

/insert Yoda here.

And yes - this will take time. It's not something that will *ever* happen overnight.

Phillip
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2014, 01:49:53 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;796008
the "good" thing about the "Americanizing" of Buddhism is doing away with a lot of the cultural baggage Buddhism has accumulated through its travels.

Getting down to the individual practice, in the vein of what Alan Watts (and other western and eastern teachers)tried to bring to the masses is all that is requires. The choice is the important part. The persistence of practice, the realization of individuals to their own presence in the practice (or lack thereof depending on ones perspective). There are no "oughts" - there is only the individual choice to DO and commit.

/insert Yoda here.

And yes - this will take time. It's not something that will *ever* happen overnight.


I see a problem in its having been turned into a Yuppie religion provided in the form of fee-for-service health clubs, counselors and seminars. What that does is not meeting the same need as traditional religious institutions, and is not how Buddha-Dharma became "the light of Asia."
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2014, 03:43:39 PM »
Cool thread!

Absolutely agreed on Trungpa. I have every book he ever wrote, and Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism is a must-read, IMO, for anyone seriously interested in Buddhism. I came across it after disentangling myself from a faux Fourth Way type tradition, and holy crap was it what I needed to hear.

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« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2014, 04:32:16 PM »
Quote from: Phillip;796194
I see a problem in its having been turned into a Yuppie religion provided in the form of fee-for-service health clubs, counselors and seminars. What that does is not meeting the same need as traditional religious institutions, and is not how Buddha-Dharma became "the light of Asia."


This is *unavoidable*.

This is precisely why ultimately it comes down to not trying to save the world enmasse. It comes down to individuals saving themselves and passing it on to others (whose responsibility is likewise their own endeavor).

That's the subtle difference. You can't worry about "Buddhist drive-thru" - the mere fact you recognize it means you're likely ahead of the curve. The idea is that you stay there. Others will figure it out (or not) on their own. But let's be clear - just as Americanized Buddhism is growing, it will accrue it's own pathological pile of bullshit just like other cultural expressions of Buddhism have in Asia... it will still come down to individuals figuring it out for themselves.

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« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2014, 10:34:03 AM »
Quote from: tenbones;796008
the "good" thing about the "Americanizing" of Buddhism is doing away with a lot of the cultural baggage Buddhism has accumulated through its travels.


Not really.  A lot of people think "wow, this U.S.-style Buddhism mixed in with pop-psychology and german romanticism and vaguely protestant anglo-saxon morality and baby-boomer social values is SO MUCH MORE AUTHENTIC to the historical buddhism than the stupid superstition Chinese people believe!", but curiously enough, that turns out not to be the case.  
Not that the Chinese superstition is not "baggage", but that all that western buddhism has done thus far is exchange one set of paradigm-baggage for another while imagining it has "gone back" to the original intent.  Its funny how the original intent of a dude who died 2500 years ago happens to be all "rational" and "Scientific" and concerned with "social justice" and way more self-centered, and free of any kind of stuff like Devotion and Obedience to the Guru that scares westerners so much.  It sure is lucky that the Buddha wasn't into that at all!


Quote

Getting down to the individual practice, in the vein of what Alan Watts (and other western and eastern teachers)tried to bring to the masses is all that is requires.


Intellectually, I love Alan Watts. He was my kind of hippie: the raging alcoholic kind.  He was great in that sense, but he was terrible in the sense that ultimately his Buddhism is a very self-referential buddhism.  This idea that things like needing a system, needing a guru, needing initiation, needing ritual, are all just "superstition" and are "not required" says way more about western middle-class Baby Boomers than it does about "authentic buddhism".  Watts ultimately turned Buddhism into a very self-focused pursuit of personal interest.
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