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Author Topic: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...  (Read 804 times)

GriswaldTerrastone

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About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« on: September 06, 2021, 10:00:33 PM »
I listened to RPGPundit's video about Wizards of the Coast and the troubles with the Dragonlance series. Keep in mind I'm still fairly new here and was unaware of such things.
If it was accurate about what has been happening with Wizards of the Coast then they themselves have declared material from before they took over to be nasty homophobic, sexist, racist, etc. Assume that report is accurate and a given.
Therefore- they themselves have declared these things to be evil bigoted material that can obviously only appeal to bigots, sexists, homophobes, anti-transexuals, etc. That's it. Barring time travel they have crossed the line, the line marking the infamous Point of No Return. This was not the opinion of someone on Twitter or some other outside entity, it came from the company itself! They cannot argue against it because they said it!

Does this not make the next questions rather obvious?

"Why then are you still selling this stuff, Wizards of the Coast? Are you TRYING to spread homophobia sexism racism etc.? Why have you been selling it for so long?"

They have painted themselves into a corner, checkmated themselves completely. Deliberately or because of short-sightedness, there are only two realistic ways out of this for them:

1) The entire leadership of WotC must be removed by Hasbro, and then the new management must declare that they are undoing the warnings since they were only the opinions of the previous and very gone management- or some variation of this. I'm not exactly optimistic this is going to happen. I'm also not willing to bet that the rights to the older stuff will be sold to a third party.

2) Since that nasty old stuff is just SO evil it will be abolished. Declaring it evil was merely the needed stop along the way to this destination. That was the intent all along, so only the more "woke" material will remain (have these people never heard of online PDF files?). I would rather put my money on that.

If recent history- Marvel, DC, "Star Wars," "Dr. Who," Dungeons and Dragons ("hot messes" and a PROM, for crying out loud?!), Disney, etc. etc. etc. is any indication which would YOU put your money on?


As for "are the Boomers running things stupid enough to keep going along with this..." Haven't the past FIFTY YEARS already answered this question a thousand times over? As a generation they have always been willing to go along with the hostile group of elites out to destroy us and the society we live in, in spite of how those pushing these agendas do not practice any of it. Boomers are the people who made self-hating shows like "MASH" and "All in the Family" big hits. I have seen this for myself throughout my entire half century + five years on this world. What makes you think it will change now? That generation has left my generation and younger with nothing but a thirty TRILLION dollar debt that cannot be paid, massive trade deficits with Communist China (the fine folks who brought you COVID-19), socio-economic devastation, a ruined job market, a flood of useless H1B hires to take the jobs of their children, massive "outsourcing," demographic ruin, Obamacare, endless oppressive laws meant to put you in the for-profit prisons they created, you name it. Look what happened to Marvel comic sales years ago, to the "Star Wars" franchise, to society, to... No, RPGPundit, as a generation Boomers will NEVER learn or admit anything. Ever. So don't even bother asking.

(Note: I'm not letting the so-called "greatest generation" off the hook here. At no time did they ever put a stop to any of it, in fact often going along with it themselves. After WW2 they should have immediately kicked the Frankfurt School out of America and made some obvious demands but failed to do so, so sealing our fates.)

Since the older AD&D material is so bigoted and so full of "-isms" obviously those who enjoyed it must have been bigoted and (fill in the blank)ists. This, more than any SJW ranting, proves just how utterly detached from reality SJWs and Boomers are, and this more than anything else enrages me, because thanks to them what happened to us- as in people like ME- before is happening again. It's personal now.
To get an idea how utterly ignorant of reality leftists in general and Boomers in particular are take a moment to consider the whining about how older Dungeons and Dragons players were so into "excluding" others because of white privilege, sexism, etc. because WE were such "-ists."
Got their image of reality? Good. Now get ready.
Again, I am 55 years old. I was there. I was one of those AD&D types. So I know what REALLY happened, firsthand.

We did not "exclude" anyone. Rather, it was SOCIETY THAT EXCLUDED US!

That's right, we were the geeks, the nerds, the weirdos into a game some called satanic and many others declared was for pathetic socially retarded losers playing make-believe. This also happened to computer nerds, comic book fans, name it. The butt of endless jokes (we were fair game) and even bullying.
If there is hostility towards "diversity" it's because as always they want in only now that all of the heavy lifting has been done. It is not and never has been "The Little Red Hen" but rather "The Little White Rooster." We keep hearing about how "diversity" rocks in computer games and RPGs and- all right, where were they before everything was solidly established? It was white males struggling all night to figure out how to get more out of 640 kilobytes of memory, how to manipulate CGA graphics to show more colors, we were the ones to keep TSR afloat so now diversity can make their demands to WotC when they were NOWHERE TO BE FOUND during the early years. Sure there were exceptions- there's a reason why a black girl was in that "Dungeons and Dragons" cartoon- but they were a minority indeed.
We did the work, put up with the derision, and now you Diversity want to take over, push us aside, make it over in your images?
Well, you can GO TO BLAZES!
We were the most INCLUSIVE people on the planet as any overall unpopular and mocked group tends to be. If you were a black girl sincerely into the game, if you were a jock who enjoyed a good goofy "bash down the door" round of gaming, the awkward chubby girl or the blonde knockout, if you were an asian computer nerd who enjoyed games with traps and puzzles to figure out, rich kid or poor kid, if you were the fat kid whom could play the game- we put the welcome mat out for you. We couldn't afford to discriminate unless you were such an insufferable idiot nobody anywhere on Earth wanted you around.
There are a lot of people who were unhappy with their social lives (or worse) when they were kids, and quite frankly Dungeons and Dragons was a bright oasis in a gloomy time. Where one could actually have fun with those they finally had something in common with. Maybe genuine friendships grew out of it. It was almost like a friend itself, helping such kids pull through, showing that maybe life wasn't totally rotten after all. So yes, there will be hostility towards those who would tear it down.

It is the fact that the left and Boomers do not comprehend this fact that is causing so much trouble in the gaming world. WotC is pandering to those who would have all but made certain that there wouldn't be any Dungeons and Dragons to fight over now.

No, RPGPundit, I am not optimistic, anyone my age who has seen earlier saner times descend into what we have now just cannot be. I had some hope for the "new" TSR but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It will ultimately be people downloading old material off the Internet and "OSR" gaming like yours, or mine (assuming the Earth reverses orbit and it gets off the ground). But WotC AD&D...get ready for delightful and absorbing ANTIFA-style adventures (it happened to Batgirl) and more "hot messes" and proms. Who knows, maybe SJWs will make possession of older stuff a hate crime. Don't laugh- if I went back in time to 1977 do you think anyone would have believed my descriptions of what 2021 is like?

I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

King Tyranno

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2021, 09:47:33 AM »
The reason the "old stuff" is istaphobic is that most of the people who run WotC have a university education. And university brainwashes one into thinking in this very rigid post modern way. Everything old is bad. Everything new is good. Consume!

It's why the most pushback on the OSR is from SJWs. The old stuff is like suuuper complex and that's just so exclusionary to them. They don't understand that while yes AD&D 1e was a fun but complex mess B/X was actually LESS bloated and complicated than their hekin progressive 5e. And they think like this because they will NEVER try the old stuff.

At the end of the day all this talk is just an excuse for the Critical Role watching fairweather zoomers to keep to what they've been told is acceptable to play. Which suits Wizards fine as people will forget the mistakes and embarrassments of TSR and early Wizards. So they can repeat those mistakes without pushback in the future.

jhkim

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2021, 05:39:43 PM »
Again, I am 55 years old. I was there. I was one of those AD&D types. So I know what REALLY happened, firsthand.

We did not "exclude" anyone. Rather, it was SOCIETY THAT EXCLUDED US!

That's right, we were the geeks, the nerds, the weirdos into a game some called satanic and many others declared was for pathetic socially retarded losers playing make-believe. This also happened to computer nerds, comic book fans, name it. The butt of endless jokes (we were fair game) and even bullying.
We did the work, put up with the derision, and now you Diversity want to take over, push us aside, make it over in your images?
Well, you can GO TO BLAZES!

Griswald - I'm 51 years old and from the same generation. I learned D&D in elementary school in the 1970s, and I've been playing RPGs ever since. And I agree that we were excluded, and were more inclusive than most of our generation. Still -- nowadays I play D&D with my son, nephews, and niece -- along with other young and old people at conventions and the like. I just finished up playing at Pacificon this past weekend.

From my view, young people playing D&D differently isn't pushing me aside. It's them doing their own thing. Just like we played games differently than the generations before us. There are more ways than ever to buy and enjoy original D&D - with PDFs and reprints of original material, retro-clones, as well as new OSR publications in the old style.

That said, I think there's a lot more overlap than is often implied here. I've had a great time running stuff for the younger generation, and playing in games they run.

--

There are assholes in the younger generations, but there were also plenty of assholes in our generation. They were the ones who who excluded and bullied us, as well as excluded and bullied lots of other people who didn't fit in.

Ghostmaker

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2021, 05:50:30 PM »
It's called 'year zero' thinking.

They want to establish things anew, but that means everything prior to 'year zero' has to go. Think 'Cultural Revolution'. Or Stalin's favoring of Lysenko. Or the purging of 'Jewish science' from German curricula circa the late 1930's.

This is also why I become enormously angry about it, because these worthless dogfucking retards are johnny-come-latelies to MY FUCKING HOBBY.

GriswaldTerrastone

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2021, 09:42:21 PM »
Again, I am 55 years old. I was there. I was one of those AD&D types. So I know what REALLY happened, firsthand.

We did not "exclude" anyone. Rather, it was SOCIETY THAT EXCLUDED US!

That's right, we were the geeks, the nerds, the weirdos into a game some called satanic and many others declared was for pathetic socially retarded losers playing make-believe. This also happened to computer nerds, comic book fans, name it. The butt of endless jokes (we were fair game) and even bullying.
We did the work, put up with the derision, and now you Diversity want to take over, push us aside, make it over in your images?
Well, you can GO TO BLAZES!

Griswald - I'm 51 years old and from the same generation. I learned D&D in elementary school in the 1970s, and I've been playing RPGs ever since. And I agree that we were excluded, and were more inclusive than most of our generation. Still -- nowadays I play D&D with my son, nephews, and niece -- along with other young and old people at conventions and the like. I just finished up playing at Pacificon this past weekend.

From my view, young people playing D&D differently isn't pushing me aside. It's them doing their own thing. Just like we played games differently than the generations before us. There are more ways than ever to buy and enjoy original D&D - with PDFs and reprints of original material, retro-clones, as well as new OSR publications in the old style.

That said, I think there's a lot more overlap than is often implied here. I've had a great time running stuff for the younger generation, and playing in games they run.

--

There are assholes in the younger generations, but there were also plenty of assholes in our generation. They were the ones who who excluded and bullied us, as well as excluded and bullied lots of other people who didn't fit in.


I have noticed that non-SJWs are quite inclusive in RPGs these days, young or older, hence the way I played when that coffee shop was around for a time.

But back then...too clearly I remember how it was. By "society" I also mean media, etc. We were the excluded by society in general, and don't forget D&D was new back then. Now it has been around and more "normalized."
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2021, 11:13:17 AM »
Yeah......Dragonlance........I used to be a huge DL fanboy. Owned everything I could get my hands on. Loved the setting, Lore, what have you. over the years my tastes have changed and now I liberally steal from DL in my own campaign. DL has had it share of controversy over the years, even before the latest. I remember when people ranted that Tracy Hickman was trying to convert you to mormonism because there was stuff from mormon mythology in it, like the disks of mishakal (gold plates).

But the stupidity amongst the sjdubs has taken it to new heights. Before I was permabanned from TBP I remember reading a thread on DL that someone basically said something like Tanis' background was problematic. I asked specifically if it had to do with his parentage (hint, his mom was raped) and several posters replied yeah, that was the problem. And I was like you do realize Tanis is a fictional character, that the writers used that in part to define Tanis and what he had to overcome? But they still didn't like it. They said his parentage was problematic.

At that point I left the thread. There is no arguing with that, there truly isn't.
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DM_Curt

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2021, 11:46:11 AM »
TBH, I thought one of the main gripes from the SJWs about DL was going to be Gully Dwarves. If orcs and drow are "racist", then wouldn't Gully Dwarves be something-or-other about mocking the developmentally disabled, in their eyes?







(Since others are mentioned their age and backgrounds, I am 48, played since Red Box Basic and played in 3 DL campaigns. If it matters. )

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2021, 11:49:30 AM »
TBH, I thought one of the main gripes from the SJWs about DL was going to be Gully Dwarves. If orcs and drow are "racist", then wouldn't Gully Dwarves be something-or-other about mocking the developmentally disabled, in their eyes?







(Since others are mentioned their age and backgrounds, I am 48, played since Red Box Basic and played in 3 DL campaigns. If it matters. )

Oh yeah, gully dwarves is a big one for them. Along with kender being klepto's. I neglected to mention that. Thanks for reminding me.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2021, 12:16:58 PM »
TBH, I thought one of the main gripes from the SJWs about DL was going to be Gully Dwarves. If orcs and drow are "racist", then wouldn't Gully Dwarves be something-or-other about mocking the developmentally disabled, in their eyes?







(Since others are mentioned their age and backgrounds, I am 48, played since Red Box Basic and played in 3 DL campaigns. If it matters. )

Oh yeah, gully dwarves is a big one for them. Along with kender being klepto's. I neglected to mention that. Thanks for reminding me.
Well, the irony was that nobody liked kender in an RPG. Saying you hate kender is like saying you enjoy breathing air. As a book character they were tolerable especially as there was just the one (Tasslehoff) and even he could have the fear of God put into him (or more specifically, the fear of Raistlin).

I could kinda see what they were trying for with kender, RPG wise, but hooooo boy did they miss the mark.

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2021, 12:25:31 PM »
Well, the irony was that nobody liked kender in an RPG. Saying you hate kender is like saying you enjoy breathing air. As a book character they were tolerable especially as there was just the one (Tasslehoff) and even he could have the fear of God put into him (or more specifically, the fear of Raistlin).

I could kinda see what they were trying for with kender, RPG wise, but hooooo boy did they miss the mark.

Lol and see, my brother played one of the best dang kender thieves I've seen played. That character was one of my favorites as a DM. But yeah, most used kender just to be horrible.
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DM_Curt

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2021, 02:38:04 PM »
I hate Kender in the hands of players or DMs. In the hands of players, the single-most disruptive character in any party, every time.
In the hands of DMs, an automatic "HAHA, FUCK YOU. All your shit gets stolen and you can't do anything about it because they ran away before you noticed and if you hurt them you're Evil because they are cute, LOLZ!"

Shasarak

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2021, 05:55:11 PM »
I disagree with the Kender hate.  They were super fun especially with Tinker Gnomes.

Y'all aint got no sense of humour.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

DM_Curt

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2021, 07:02:50 PM »
I had a sense of humor. DM said the last time I saw it was right before a pack of Kender ran off in three different directions, giggling.

HappyDaze

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2021, 05:14:36 AM »
I had a sense of humor. DM said the last time I saw it was right before a pack of Kender ran off in three different directions, giggling.
Had you already looped wire around their necks? I mean, there's some humor in that...

Svenhelgrim

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Re: About Dragonlance, Old Nasty Unwoke Stuff, And A Bit Of History...
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2021, 12:19:59 PM »
I had a sense of humor. DM said the last time I saw it was right before a pack of Kender ran off in three different directions, giggling.

Magic Missile automatically hits.  Praise Raistlin.