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Author Topic: 2020 Election Commentary  (Read 185060 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2220 on: December 20, 2020, 02:18:06 AM »
Nice try, but I voted for the party that DIDN'T think it was OK for the elderly to die so that people could keep eating at Old Town Buffet. I'm also a full-time caregiver for an elderly family member who is incapable of caring for themselves. That's a large part of why I get upset at this administration's callousness and bungling with regard to Covid-19.

Really? I haven't seen you even mention Cuomo (NY), Newsom (CA), Murphy (NJ), Whitmer (MI), and Wolf (PA) because they are the ones who moved COVID-19 patients into Nursing Homes.

Then again, they are all leftist democrats, so why would you complain about their shitty leadership? It would undermine your holy narrative.

It was obviously a horrible idea to move Covid patients to nursing homes. Not even debatable.

However, none of that changes the fact that Trump fucked this up so badly that hospitals were/are overflowing. I am in no way justifying the decisions of any state governments who made such a dangerous and foolish decision. But, had Covid been handled competently in the first place, or would have been a moot point.

What do you think Trump and the rest of the Federal government should have done differently?

Not fired the Pandemic response team?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/10/fact-check-white-house-didnt-fire-pandemic-response-2018/3437356001/

Quote
Used the playbook left by the Obama administration?

What's different in the Obama playbook compared to how it was actually handled?

Quote
Not left PPE distribution up to Jared and his frat buddies?

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/08/25/trump-administration-release-1-5-million-n95-respirators-from-strategic-national-stockpile-distribution-nursing-homes.html

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Not downplayed the severity and danger of the virus?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-regarding-presidents-coronavirus-task-force/

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Encouraged people to behave safely and responsibly?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/president-trump-urges-americans-to-wear-masks-to-prevent-the-spread-of-the-coronavirus.html
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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2221 on: December 20, 2020, 09:39:45 AM »
Nice try, but I voted for the party that DIDN'T think it was OK for the elderly to die so that people could keep eating at Old Town Buffet. I'm also a full-time caregiver for an elderly family member who is incapable of caring for themselves. That's a large part of why I get upset at this administration's callousness and bungling with regard to Covid-19.

Really? I haven't seen you even mention Cuomo (NY), Newsom (CA), Murphy (NJ), Whitmer (MI), and Wolf (PA) because they are the ones who moved COVID-19 patients into Nursing Homes.

Then again, they are all leftist democrats, so why would you complain about their shitty leadership? It would undermine your holy narrative.

It was obviously a horrible idea to move Covid patients to nursing homes. Not even debatable.

However, none of that changes the fact that Trump fucked this up so badly that hospitals were/are overflowing. I am in no way justifying the decisions of any state governments who made such a dangerous and foolish decision. But, had Covid been handled competently in the first place, or would have been a moot point.

What do you think Trump and the rest of the Federal government should have done differently?

Not fired the Pandemic response team?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/10/fact-check-white-house-didnt-fire-pandemic-response-2018/3437356001/

Quote
Used the playbook left by the Obama administration?

What's different in the Obama playbook compared to how it was actually handled?

Quote
Not left PPE distribution up to Jared and his frat buddies?

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/08/25/trump-administration-release-1-5-million-n95-respirators-from-strategic-national-stockpile-distribution-nursing-homes.html

Quote
Not downplayed the severity and danger of the virus?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-regarding-presidents-coronavirus-task-force/

Quote
Encouraged people to behave safely and responsibly?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/president-trump-urges-americans-to-wear-masks-to-prevent-the-spread-of-the-coronavirus.html

Nice cherry picking, buy for every article you cite about the government's urging people to wear masks and take precautions, there are dozens of example of Republicans saying and doing the opposite. Trump didn't catch Vivid because he was taking the proper safety measures. At the end of the day, nothing will change your mind or mine.

As for the pandemic response plan, numerous current and former government employees have spoken to this. 30 seconds of Googling will answer your own question for you. Hell, even Mitch McConnell was forced to admit that the former admin had left detailed pandemic instructions.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/14/mcconnell-obama-playbook-pandemic-259969

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/run-plays-officials-trump-administration-pandemic-playbooks/story?id=71999769

Pat
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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2222 on: December 20, 2020, 09:51:07 AM »
Not fired the Pandemic response team?
He didn't fire the pandemic response team, that's a myth. It was based on an article in the Washington Post, but three days later they came out with another article that basically said the first article was a lie. To no one's surprise given the bias of the media, the first article was widely cited in other news, the second article was not.

What happened is the pandemic response team was restructured. The head of the directorate (Ziemer) moved to a new position (something that had been scheduled for a long time), and was replaced with an even more senior official (deputy assistant to the president instead of senior director) who had even more clout in Washington, which is generally a good thing. They were also combined with the bioterrorism unit. The most important thing about that change is based on how security is handled at the directorate level. Each directorate is in its own "vault", so classified material can be left on desks overnight. To pass between vaults, staff need to go through a whole security check. By putting them together in the same unit, they could now leave materials out and interact with each other without having to pass through security every time. Not only is this generally a good thing, but the reorganized resulted in the completion of several projects that had been stalled due to bureaucratic infighting, so there's clear evidence it worked in this specific case. In addition, the former head who left specifically said his "dream team" remained intact.

There's an argument to be made that natural pandemics are different enough from bioterrorism that they should be a separate unit, but there's no clear-cut better solution. Opinions are split. But that's not what most of the media ran with, they just reported the highly biased and overly simplistic lie. Also note Trump stood up the pandemic task force, charged with specifically addressing COVID-19, on January 29, very early in the pandemic. And that given Trump's managerial style, whether the pandemic task force was a separate directorate wouldn't have mattered in the slightest. He would have just appointed his own team, anyway.

Pat
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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2223 on: December 20, 2020, 09:53:55 AM »
At the end of the day, nothing will change your mind or mine.
That's horrific.

VisionStorm

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2224 on: December 20, 2020, 10:45:28 AM »
Nice cherry picking,

Right back at ya  ;)

buy for every article you cite about the government's urging people to wear masks and take precautions, there are dozens of example of Republicans saying and doing the opposite.

And for every example of Republicans saying the opposite AFTER the lockdowns and other measures (including the use of masks) were shown to have questionable effectiveness you will find a dozen mainstream media articles downplaying the severity of the virus or the need to wear masks early on BECAUSE it was Republicans and so-called "conspiracy theorists" on the internet who were originally worrying about the virus and saying that people should weak masks, or even being AWARE of the potential threat, because NOBODY else wanted to hear it. But I'm sure it was Trump who was 100% responsible for BLASTING the public with conflicting messages 24/7 since this whole shitshow started.

At the end of the day, nothing will change your mind or mine.

Because you have your own version of reality and aren't providing anything of substance to counter anything anyone else is saying, only harping on that "Trump should've done """SOMETHING""". WHAAHHH!!!", whining on hindsight, and failing to substantiate WTF Trump could possibly, REALISTICALLY have done.

Spike

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2225 on: December 20, 2020, 10:49:33 AM »


At that point, it was no longer a political debate. I was being accused of being a murderer and of not viewing the elderly as human beings by someone who has never met me.

Nonsense. Aside from the fact that you signed onto this forum to come into purely political debates with all rhetorical guns blazing, which makes this statement of your hypocritical on the face of it, the mere fact that you don't like the tone of the discussion does not alter its nature in the least.  Likewise, I've seen, if not you than your side, of the debate accuse people of being murders for simply not wearing masks or choosing to wait on the untested vaccine that has probably already killed that one nurse that fainted during the press conference. 

On top of that, not only do you seem to think that you personally knowing and caring for an elderly person gives you some sort of political authority over the rest of us, but apparently you are so deluded as to assume that the vast majority (if any) of us... aside from your sainted self... do not view the elderly as human!   



For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

For the curious: Apparently, in person, I sound exactly like the Youtube Character The Nostalgia Critic.   I have no words.

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Ratman_tf

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2226 on: December 20, 2020, 11:12:07 AM »
Nice try, but I voted for the party that DIDN'T think it was OK for the elderly to die so that people could keep eating at Old Town Buffet. I'm also a full-time caregiver for an elderly family member who is incapable of caring for themselves. That's a large part of why I get upset at this administration's callousness and bungling with regard to Covid-19.

Really? I haven't seen you even mention Cuomo (NY), Newsom (CA), Murphy (NJ), Whitmer (MI), and Wolf (PA) because they are the ones who moved COVID-19 patients into Nursing Homes.

Then again, they are all leftist democrats, so why would you complain about their shitty leadership? It would undermine your holy narrative.

It was obviously a horrible idea to move Covid patients to nursing homes. Not even debatable.

However, none of that changes the fact that Trump fucked this up so badly that hospitals were/are overflowing. I am in no way justifying the decisions of any state governments who made such a dangerous and foolish decision. But, had Covid been handled competently in the first place, or would have been a moot point.

What do you think Trump and the rest of the Federal government should have done differently?

Not fired the Pandemic response team?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/10/fact-check-white-house-didnt-fire-pandemic-response-2018/3437356001/

Quote
Used the playbook left by the Obama administration?

What's different in the Obama playbook compared to how it was actually handled?

Quote
Not left PPE distribution up to Jared and his frat buddies?

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/08/25/trump-administration-release-1-5-million-n95-respirators-from-strategic-national-stockpile-distribution-nursing-homes.html

Quote
Not downplayed the severity and danger of the virus?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-regarding-presidents-coronavirus-task-force/

Quote
Encouraged people to behave safely and responsibly?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/21/president-trump-urges-americans-to-wear-masks-to-prevent-the-spread-of-the-coronavirus.html

Nice cherry picking, buy for every article you cite about the government's urging people to wear masks and take precautions, there are dozens of example of Republicans saying and doing the opposite. Trump didn't catch Vivid because he was taking the proper safety measures. At the end of the day, nothing will change your mind or mine.


Speak for yourself. I have changed my mind about pretty drastic fundamental things from time to time, and I take pains to not be too jingoistic. But as you say, if nothing will change your mind...

Trump 2024. Suck it, beyotch.
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Ghostmaker

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2227 on: December 20, 2020, 11:17:27 AM »
Clearly, the solution was for Trump to have Cuomo killed and a small, fuzzy kitten installed as NY governor. It couldn't be worse.

Jokes aside, the left needs to figure out which side of federalism it wants to be on, because they can't make up their fucking minds (assuming they have any). Either the feds and the president can step in when the state isn't picking up the slack, in which case yes, Trump should bear some responsibility for not sending the 82nd Airborne in to take Andrew Emmy Cuomo into custody.

Or... the feds can't do that, and while there might have been things Trump could do at the federal level, the fact is the buck stopped at the state level with the governors. Which puts the whole onus on Cuomo, Whitmer, et. al.

We saw this with Katrina. Yes, Michael Brown was a political appointee and Dubya had an amazing knack for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

But fun fact: FEMA can't just roll in on its own. You have to call it in, and it takes time to get rolling. Where were the state and local authorities for NOLA? What were THEY doing?

Responsibility starts with YOURSELF. Not 'the government'.

Bren

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2228 on: December 20, 2020, 12:28:36 PM »
Greetings!

Oh, I don't know about that. Most Trump supporters I know are excellent people, upstanding, and good Americans.
Who keep drinking the cool aid and supporting a lying, delusional, traitor who hates democracy and America. That's not patriotic, much less, PATRIOTIC.

And as just one example of their, and your, delusion is the ridiculously silly belief that everyone who doesn't like Fat Donnie the LOSER is a Marxist. Total FAIL. Very SAD.


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If it is too rough here for you, I understand, Bren. The political section here is definitely not for everyone.
It's not too rough. The moronic conspiratorial whining from the Trumpists isn't rough or tough. It's SAD. I'm not looking forward to next four years of crying and whining about their feelings from the Trumpists.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 12:34:56 PM by Bren »
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rawma

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2229 on: December 20, 2020, 01:20:53 PM »
But since you want to air it out, the only bizarre PM between us ever was yours where you attacked me for criticizing someone you believed had a PhD (still don't know whom you meant in a forum where almost everyone is pseudonymous); a nice combination of argument from authority and ignorance of the fallibility of actual PhDs.
I have a PhD, don't know about anyone else here. And you started that PM conversation.

The PM I sent you? In order to avoid embarrassing you further in public, I detailed another distortion/reading failure over what was written in a post. You clutched your pearls over someone

I also have a PhD, and after my many years in acadmeia your naive belief that PhDs never misread anything is just super adorable. jhkim also has a PhD (he is one of the few posters to identify himself at this site sufficiently to verify that) and I believe he misread my post earlier in this thread regarding Brad's link about Project Veritas. These posts are not peer-reviewed submissions, and if you really had much experience of PhDs you would know that they can say dumb things off the cuff. The rampantly dishonest ones are a bit rarer, so pat yourself on the back for that, if you can reach it.

Here's a few associated with the current administration who have PhDs and spout dishonest or stupid stuff, like you do.

Dr. Peter Navarro
This might be the most embarrassing document created by a White House staffer
Quote
If Navarro sincerely believes this implies questionable activity, then his “report” should be treated as inherently ridiculous, since he hasn’t done his homework. If he doesn’t believe his insinuations, then the report shouldn’t be taken seriously, because it’s obviously aimed at misleading the reader.

Dr. Kevin Hassett
White House economic adviser Kevin Hassett created a baffling 'cubic model' showing coronavirus deaths would hit 0 by May 15. It turns out he used a basic Excel function for his controversial projection.

Dr. Sebastian Gorka
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Gorka#Credentials
Quote
A number of academics and policymakers questioned Gorka's knowledge of foreign policy issues, his academic credentials and his professional behavior.

rawma

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2230 on: December 20, 2020, 01:36:51 PM »
The judges haven't even looked at any of the evidence, but dismissed every case on the grounds of things such as improper filing, rather than the merits of them.

This is blatantly false. I already posted a refutation of that claim, quoted below.

To reiterate briefly for Trondies,
Quote from: Judge Brett Ludwig, a Trump appointee
This Court has allowed plaintiff the chance to make his case and he has lost on the merits.
Page 22 at https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wied.92761/gov.uscourts.wied.92761.134.0_4.pdf

Such as people claiming that the courts specifically said there's nothing there, when back in the real world courts can dismiss a case for any number of reasons (ranging from judge bias to improper presentation of the claims), not necessarily because there's nothing there.

Coincidentally, I was just reading this:
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/12/13/another-court-loss-for-trump-campaign-in-wisconsin/
Quote
On Saturday, a federal district court judge in Wisconsin issued an opinion explaining why, on the merits, Texas's substantive arguments were without merit. And, as occurred on the Supreme Court, a judge appointed by President Trump, Brett Ludwig, ruled against him.

...

Dozens of election suits have been filed, and dozens of judges of all political stripes and judicial philosophies have ruled against the claims put forward by the Trump campaign and its allies.

Dismissing a case is saying there's nothing there. What do you think the courts should have found?

rawma

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2231 on: December 20, 2020, 02:47:28 PM »
Not fired the Pandemic response team?
He didn't fire the pandemic response team, that's a myth. It was based on an article in the Washington Post, but three days later they came out with another article that basically said the first article was a lie. To no one's surprise given the bias of the media, the first article was widely cited in other news, the second article was not.

The "second article" is an opinion piece by a former Trump advisor, Tim Morrison, published on 3/16/2020. It appears to be a response to an opinion piece "I ran the White House pandemic office. Trump closed it." from 3/13/2020 by Beth Cameron, who headed the White House’s National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense under Obama.

The fact check that Ratman_tf posted a link to was dated September 2020, and does cite the opinion piece by Morrison but not the one by Cameron. But it still says "disbanded" and only characterizes "President Trump fired the 'entire' pandemic response team in 2018" as Partly False, mostly on the quibbles that some resigned and some were reassigned elsewhere in the Trump administration. People who are fired are sometimes said to have resigned, and characterizing "disbanding" as "firing" is simple rhetorical hyperbole, and in any case it's not there, is it?

There are many other steps the Trump administration declined to take, such as refilling the national stockpile that Republicans blocked Obama from doing or consistently encouraging the use of masks which have been shown to reduce the spread of this disease, and other things that they shouldn't have done, like pushing for states to open prematurely or basing policy decisions on political considerations.

The internet is full of posters pretending to be something they're not to claim more authority for their positions, like Dean Browning posting that he was a gay black guy when he forgot to switch to his sockpuppet account, or like the copypasta Twitter accounts pretending to be lifelong Democrats who switched to being Republican over some trivial fake outrage, all in the exact same words.

It is apparent that Pat sits squarely in that tradition. Maybe Pat the non-right-winger is insane and posts randomly, but by chance always seeming right-wing; maybe Pat the non-right-winger is actually an anarchist who sees defending Donald Trump as the shortest path to the destruction of the US Constitution. But the simplest explanation is that Pat is just a right-winger.

Shasarak

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2232 on: December 20, 2020, 02:57:19 PM »
I have a PhD.

I also have a PhD

Nice, everyone has a PhD.

For the record my pronouns are: Doctor, Doctor and Doctor because I self identify as a Doctor.
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Shasarak

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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2233 on: December 20, 2020, 03:00:57 PM »
Not fired the Pandemic response team?

Used the playbook left by the Obama administration?

Not left PPE distribution up to Jared and his frat buddies?

Not downplayed the severity and danger of the virus?

Encouraged people to behave safely and responsibly?

For starters.

Oh please.  When Trump was restricting travel from China, Nancy Pelosi was encouraging people to mass together in China Town to, I assume, spread the virus more efficiently.

And as for Federal distribution of PPE, remember when Doctors had to choose which patients got a Ventilator and which patients just had to die?  No, me neither.
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Pat
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Re: 2020 Election Commentary
« Reply #2234 on: December 20, 2020, 03:33:02 PM »
The "second article" is an opinion piece by a former Trump advisor, Tim Morrison, published on 3/16/2020. It appears to be a response to an opinion piece "I ran the White House pandemic office. Trump closed it." from 3/13/2020 by Beth Cameron, who headed the White House’s National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense under Obama.
Yes, I referred to both, and linked to both. Kind of funny how you're pretending I'm only presenting one side, when not only did I link to both of the articles, but the entire thrust of my paragraph was to present both of them in balance.

The fact check that Ratman_tf posted a link to was dated September 2020, and does cite the opinion piece by Morrison but not the one by Cameron. But it still says "disbanded" and only characterizes "President Trump fired the 'entire' pandemic response team in 2018" as Partly False, mostly on the quibbles that some resigned and some were reassigned elsewhere in the Trump administration. People who are fired are sometimes said to have resigned, and characterizing "disbanding" as "firing" is simple rhetorical hyperbole, and in any case it's not there, is it?
I also used that article as a reference. In fact, even though I didn't link it (it just summarizes the elements from the previous two articles, so it seemed redundant), I used it as my primary reference. Literally everything I said came from that article. I essentially summarized the key elements.

Unlike you. You're just cherry picking some general statements and pretending that somehow contradicts the bulk of the article. Which is nonsense, the article isn't contradicting itself. You're just trying to spin it one way, with an obvious agenda. Wonder what that agenda could be... ?

The internet is full of posters pretending to be something they're not to claim more authority for their positions, like Dean Browning posting that he was a gay black guy when he forgot to switch to his sockpuppet account, or like the copypasta Twitter accounts pretending to be lifelong Democrats who switched to being Republican over some trivial fake outrage, all in the exact same words.

It is apparent that Pat sits squarely in that tradition. Maybe Pat the non-right-winger is insane and posts randomly, but by chance always seeming right-wing; maybe Pat the non-right-winger is actually an anarchist who sees defending Donald Trump as the shortest path to the destruction of the US Constitution. But the simplest explanation is that Pat is just a right-winger.
... oh, this again.

It is apparent you're a fucking idiot.