2020 Election Commentary

[SHARK]

Greetings!

PRESIDENT TRUMP speaks by phone at the Election Hearings in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, with Rudi Juliani and Jenna Ellis present.

God bless President Trump! MAGA!!!!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Trond]

Most of the violence in the recent protests has been fomented either by the boogalooers and their ilk, or by federal intervention sent in against the wishes of mayors and governors. And murderers like Kyle Rittenhouse are heroes to the right.

I saw some of the riots close up, BLM people were literally tearing stores down. Store owners were putting up BLM signs in a panic, hoping to avoid being looted. In some areas it looked like a protection racket (later confirmed by some latinos on the news).

Oh and the media seem to want people to think that boogalooers are "right wing". I have seen lots of leftists thinking this because the media keep saying it. They protested against the police after George Floyd died, and one of them has supported Hamas. Does that sound right wing to anyone?

[Pat]

Oh please we both know that isn't happening. With a Republican Senate, and a bare majority in the House with enough fearful moderate Democratic House members fearing the midterms if they are perceived to be progressive, we're talking a deadlocked Congress.

Their only prayer of accomplishing something would be to pass the bill previously proposed to reinstate earmarks. Once earmarks are reinstated, then they can start making back room deals again, and have a chance at actually passing a bill. Things like "You vote to give bullet train money to California, and we will vote to give defense contracts to Texas" type deals were the backbone of how most things got done when we were younger.

This is how industry was originally spread across America. It's how our aerospace industry at one time was the best in the world. It's how our roads were, at one time, the best in the world. It's how our dams, our electrical system, our waterways, were all once the best in the world. It's how we got to the moon, and built track homes to make the suburbs, advanced architecture, and medicine. With backroom deals made in smoke filled rooms by overly fed and overly ego'ed good old boys trying to screw each other in negotiations.

Except that's not true. Industry spread across America because of entrepreneurs, not pork.

You are naive and misinformed.

Steel, coal, aerospace, construction machinery and contracts, they all came from Government contracts starting in the 30s which only grew through the 50s and 60s.

The government is not "taking credit for everything good" as a lot of this was private companies receiving Government contracts. But pork spending drove a huge amount of this growth.

No, you just have a very weak understanding of economics.

It's not under dispute that the government spent a lot, especially starting in the 1930s. Nor is it under dispute that the spending resulted in certain goods. The real question is whether the government's expenditure of those resources provided a net benefit over the alternative uses of those resources, i.e. whether the free market would have provided superior or less costly goods. Simply listing the benefits that resulted, as you did, is giving the government for the entire good, rather than considering whether that good is better or worse than that the goods that would have resulted, without the government intervention. That's exactly what I was decrying when I said you are giving government credit for everything good that happened.

You should consider reading Bastiat's parable of the seen and the unseen, which is probably the most famous illustration of how only looking at the immediately effects, without considering the alternatives that could have happened, completely misses the real trade offs involved. For an alternate source, it's the "lesson" in Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, which is perhaps the most famous introductory work on economics in the 20th century (and is currently free at the Mises Institute). You might also consider looking into the Nobel prize winning work of James Buchanan on public choice theory, which applies that concept to the government.

[Mistwell]

Greetings!

This election has been so full of fraud and corruption. Full investigations and audits need to be done, and all of these corrupt pollsters, workers, election officials, and slimy politicians need to fucking pay.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

They are doing investigations. They are going to courts. The courts are all saying the were not in fact fraudulent and corrupt. You're unwilling to accept those rulings because of your partisan bias. Despite similar stuff happening when Trump won, at the same locations, where you didn't have a complaint but did call Clinton a sore loser at the time.

At some point there will be a reckoning for how you are behaving right now about this election. Let's hope your reckoning is kinder and gentler than the one you wish on your political opposites.

[Mistwell]

Oh please we both know that isn't happening. With a Republican Senate, and a bare majority in the House with enough fearful moderate Democratic House members fearing the midterms if they are perceived to be progressive, we're talking a deadlocked Congress.

Their only prayer of accomplishing something would be to pass the bill previously proposed to reinstate earmarks. Once earmarks are reinstated, then they can start making back room deals again, and have a chance at actually passing a bill. Things like "You vote to give bullet train money to California, and we will vote to give defense contracts to Texas" type deals were the backbone of how most things got done when we were younger.

This is how industry was originally spread across America. It's how our aerospace industry at one time was the best in the world. It's how our roads were, at one time, the best in the world. It's how our dams, our electrical system, our waterways, were all once the best in the world. It's how we got to the moon, and built track homes to make the suburbs, advanced architecture, and medicine. With backroom deals made in smoke filled rooms by overly fed and overly ego'ed good old boys trying to screw each other in negotiations.

Except that's not true. Industry spread across America because of entrepreneurs, not pork.

You are naive and misinformed.

Steel, coal, aerospace, construction machinery and contracts, they all came from Government contracts starting in the 30s which only grew through the 50s and 60s.

The government is not "taking credit for everything good" as a lot of this was private companies receiving Government contracts. But pork spending drove a huge amount of this growth.

No, you just have a very weak understanding of economics.

It's not under dispute that the government spent a lot, especially starting in the 1930s. Nor is it under dispute that the spending resulted in certain goods. The real question is whether the government's expenditure of those resources provided a net benefit over the alternative uses of those resources, i.e. whether the free market would have provided superior or less costly goods. Simply listing the benefits that resulted, as you did, is giving the government for the entire good, rather than considering whether that good is better or worse than that the goods that would have resulted, without the government intervention. That's exactly what I was decrying when I said you are giving government credit for everything good that happened.

You should consider reading Bastiat's parable of the seen and the unseen, which is probably the most famous illustration of how only looking at the immediately effects, without considering the alternatives that could have happened, completely misses the real trade offs involved. For an alternate source, it's the "lesson" in Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, which is perhaps the most famous introductory work on economics in the 20th century (and is currently free at the Mises Institute). You might also consider looking into the Nobel prize winning work of James Buchanan on public choice theory, which applies that concept to the government.

There was not the money at the time, or the motivation at the time, to engage in those projects by the private sector. Nor were banks willing to lend on it, without Government backing for the financing.

I am not giving Government credit for everything good. I am saying that era of mild Government corruption and back room dealing resulted in far better results than what we've been getting with high levels of partisan bickering and filibustering of everything and no incentive to work across the aisles anymore to get anything done.

[EOTB]

You are naive and misinformed.

Steel, coal, aerospace, construction machinery and contracts, they all came from Government contracts starting in the 30s which only grew through the 50s and 60s.

The government is not "taking credit for everything good" as a lot of this was private companies receiving Government contracts. But pork spending drove a huge amount of this growth.

This is absolutely bizarre.  The US was industrially dominant prior to 1930.  It became industrially dominant during a period where the US government lived off import tariff revenues and federal budgets were small. 

http://stats.areppim.com/stats/stats_usxbudget_history.htm

Why does it not surprise me though that the nevertrump wing defends pork while simultaneously humping Sasse/Ryan fans' legs and calling Trump "not a real conservative".  Pork, war, and social change - what conservatives are all about!

[EOTB]

They are doing investigations. They are going to courts. The courts are all saying the were not in fact fraudulent and corrupt. You're unwilling to accept those rulings because of your partisan bias. Despite similar stuff happening when Trump won, at the same locations, where you didn't have a complaint but did call Clinton a sore loser at the time.

At some point there will be a reckoning for how you are behaving right now about this election. Let's hope your reckoning is kinder and gentler than the one you wish on your political opposites.

[Ratman_tf]

Most of the violence in the recent protests has been fomented either by the boogalooers and their ilk, or by federal intervention sent in against the wishes of mayors and governors. And murderers like Kyle Rittenhouse are heroes to the right.

I saw some of the riots close up, BLM people were literally tearing stores down. Store owners were putting up BLM signs in a panic, hoping to avoid being looted. In some areas it looked like a protection racket (later confirmed by some latinos on the news).

Oh and the media seem to want people to think that boogalooers are "right wing". I have seen lots of leftists thinking this because the media keep saying it. They protested against the police after George Floyd died, and one of them has supported Hamas. Does that sound right wing to anyone?

Plus, the federal intervention was limited to federal facilities and/or acts against federal agents and facilities. The media jumped on this as proof that Trump had gone "Final Form" Hitler mode.
The state governors put federal agents and facilities at risk by ignoring the violence and vandalism until it got so bad they had to kinda sorta start dealing with it.

[Pat]

There was not the money at the time, or the motivation at the time, to engage in those projects by the private sector. Nor were banks willing to lend on it, without Government backing for the financing.

What do you base that on? The huge economic flowering of the previous century, with a minimal government footprint? The even more severe downturn in 1920 and 1921, where Harding did absolutely nothing and the economy bounced back on its own almost immediately?

[Mistwell]

They are doing investigations. They are going to courts. The courts are all saying the were not in fact fraudulent and corrupt. You're unwilling to accept those rulings because of your partisan bias. Despite similar stuff happening when Trump won, at the same locations, where you didn't have a complaint but did call Clinton a sore loser at the time.

At some point there will be a reckoning for how you are behaving right now about this election. Let's hope your reckoning is kinder and gentler than the one you wish on your political opposites.

Your cherry picked except from the larger text not withstanding, So far, though, supporters of President Donald Trump and the Trump campaign itself have failed in all their legal challenges to the process or the results of Michigan's November 3rd elections.

[Mistwell]

There was not the money at the time, or the motivation at the time, to engage in those projects by the private sector. Nor were banks willing to lend on it, without Government backing for the financing.

What do you base that on? The huge economic flowering of the previous century, with a minimal government footprint? The even more severe downturn in 1920 and 1921, where Harding did absolutely nothing and the economy bounced back on its own almost immediately?

Are you seriously arguing projects like the TVA and Hoover Dam and San Francisco Bridge and the intercontinental highway would have just been built by private industry without at least Government backed loans? Please.

[EOTB]

There was not the money at the time, or the motivation at the time, to engage in those projects by the private sector. Nor were banks willing to lend on it, without Government backing for the financing.

What do you base that on? The huge economic flowering of the previous century, with a minimal government footprint? The even more severe downturn in 1920 and 1921, where Harding did absolutely nothing and the economy bounced back on its own almost immediately?

Are you seriously arguing projects like the TVA and Hoover Dam and San Francisco Bridge and the intercontinental highway would have just been built by private industry without at least Government backed loans? Please.

Are you seriously arguing that the capacity to build those projects came into being because of any pork-trading happening immediately prior to?  "Our economic dominance stems from the political corruption that benefits my class."  That's some grade-A gaslighting right there.

[EOTB]

Your cherry picked except from the larger text not withstanding, So far, though, supporters of President Donald Trump and the Trump campaign itself have failed in all their legal challenges to the process or the results of Michigan's November 3rd elections.

You do move goalposts like a lawyer.  I posted what refuted your total bullshit analysis of

The courts are all saying the were not in fact fraudulent and corrupt. You're unwilling to accept those rulings because of your partisan bias.

...


At some point there will be a reckoning for how you are behaving right now about this election.

You know damn well that the courts are not ruling on whether the election was fraud-free, or not fraud-free.  But you want people to believe otherwise.

[SHARK]

Greetings!

This election has been so full of fraud and corruption. Full investigations and audits need to be done, and all of these corrupt pollsters, workers, election officials, and slimy politicians need to fucking pay.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

They are doing investigations. They are going to courts. The courts are all saying the were not in fact fraudulent and corrupt. You're unwilling to accept those rulings because of your partisan bias. Despite similar stuff happening when Trump won, at the same locations, where you didn't have a complaint but did call Clinton a sore loser at the time.

At some point there will be a reckoning for how you are behaving right now about this election. Let's hope your reckoning is kinder and gentler than the one you wish on your political opposites.

Greetings!

You must have missed drinking some morning coffee, Mistwell.

Court cases are proceeding in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania--and maybe still Nevada.

I think all of these scum interfering and performing fraud and corruption in our elections need to pay. I hope they never see daylight. In a different time, well--they would all be hanged. Every last one of them. In public, for all to see.

As for reckoning? For me? *laughing* I am well-prepared.





Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Pat]

Are you seriously arguing projects like the TVA and Hoover Dam and San Francisco Bridge and the intercontinental highway would have just been built by private industry without at least Government backed loans? Please.

Maybe there would have been ferries, instead of a giant bridge. But if the bridge made more sense, then it would have been built. Dams are even easier, because they could easily estimate the power output and compare that to projected needs, and potential profits. The intercontinental highway system? It wouldn't have been as standardized, but something equivalent would have probably sprung up. It would probably have been more of a patchwork differing from state to state, and more pay as you go, but it wouldn't have been a huge subsidy for trucking companies, so railroads might have flourished instead.

Though the TVA never made the slightest bit of sense, so no, that wouldn't have been created by the private market. The only reason the TVA still exists or ever existed is because of government enforced monopoly powers.